I missed the opportunity to get indignant about the MSNBC nude porno ad

[Warren DeMontague]

but I sure heard about it. Unfortunately, it vanished before I could get properly worked up into a good, puritan-style lather.

However, I logged on today- and there's an ad with some kind of satanic, fiery horned naked proto-demon, and... how shall I put this, he's swinging some serious demonic pipe! Like, full frontal fiery furnace, baby.

I am shocked, I tell you, shocked. And outraged. This crass objectification of imps, devils, demons and satanic sub-entities has got to stop. As well as the exploitation for commercial gain of the naked, demonic phallus. Plus, imagine the message this sends to young demons who might not be as well hung as the drawing in the ad.

Send this to the lounge if you must, but... really, I thought we were better than all that.

[annabanana]

1. hee hee. . . n/t

[emulatorloo]

2. kick and nominating

because I needed the laugh. . .

[NVMojo]

3. it's equal opportunity!

[mongo]

4. Did you miss the Elvis ad too?

THE KING pumping gas -- how demeaning to his memory.

I was very offended!

You missed a good fight on the neon trucker mud flap girl -- Oh the humanity!

[mongo]

5. About the neon mud flap girl

After a dozen or so threads on the ad -- I haven't seen one single thread about the show itself.

Maybe I was the only one who watched it.

[incapsulated]

7. So...

What was it like? Did you get to see an interview with the neon girl?

[mongo]

12. Nope. Just a couple of the Vivid girls

The whole piece was almost a publicity piece for Vivid. Almost everyone interviewed was with their company.

Still, it was about the fairest work you could expect from the MSM on the adult industry.

[blogslut]

33. watched some of it

Had to go to the store so I missed some of it. From what I saw, old Rita had a pretty hard time proving it was porn ruining America.

[incapsulated]

6. Not only that...

It looks pretty obvious that a homosexual rape is about to take place.

This equation of Demons = Gay Rapists is offensive and disgusting.

I thought this was a progressive site.

:mad:

[400Years]

8. demonic pipe, hell that should be someone's username

[jeff30997]

11. It could also be a good band name. :)

[edbermac]

9. We need more nudes at DU!

We are not like the bunch of sexually repressed fundies over at FreakRepubliKKK!

[mzmolly]

10. I was personally worked up in to a feminist/double standard type lather .

Just be sure not to mischaracterize various lathers ey?

By the way the "phallus" is a dissapointment. You'd think Satan would have a much larger unit? Can we please get a photoshop expert to touch that up?

[mongo]

13. LOL!

I've met Satan, and indeed he is well endowed.

[mzmolly]

14. Well if I were Satan, I'd be pissed off at this insulting likeness.

Downright slanderous! ;)

[incapsulated]

15. Here you go:

This is a far more accurate depiction of him in all his... Satanic Majesty, if you will. And this is flaccid. (I know from personal experience *wink, wink*)

[mzmolly]

17. PHEW!

I can sleep well knowing justice is served via your truthful depiction of the satanic phallus. Thankfully, my naughty image of Satan is preserved!

:evilgrin:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

55. I clicked on it to see if I could get a bigger picture....

sadly... no.

:rofl:

[mzmolly]

70. Thankfully post 15 has served up a bit o justice.

Heck the porn and fashion magazines featuring women are photoshoped and air brushed to the point of barely being real - so, what's good for the goose ... ;)

[bloom]

16. Here's your argument: (by Gail Dines and Robert Jensen)

Do we want profit-hungry corporative executives constructing our culture?

Article over on Znet

Pornography Is A Left Issue

...As leftists, we reject the sexism and racism that saturates contemporary mass-marketed pornography. As leftists, we reject the capitalist commodification of one of the most basic aspects of our humanity. As leftists, we reject corporate domination of media and culture. Anti-pornography feminists are not asking the left to accept a new way of looking at the world but instead are arguing for consistency in analysis and application of principles....


Corporate media

Critiques of the power of commercial corporate media are ubiquitous on the left. Leftists with vastly different political projects can come together to decry conglomerates' control over news and entertainment programming. Because of the structure of the system, it's a given that these corporations create programming that meets the needs of advertisers and elites, not ordinary people....

Commodification

...But, to the best of our knowledge, no one on the left defends capitalist media -- or any other capitalist enterprise -- by pointing out workers consented to do their jobs. The people who produce media content, or any other product, consent to work in such enterprises, under varying constraints and opportunities. So what? The critique is not of the workers, but of the owners and structure.

Racism

...The racism of the industry is so pervasive that it goes largely unnoticed. In an interview with the producer of the DVD "Black Bros and Asian Ho's," one of us asked if he ever was criticized for the racism of such films. He said, "No, they are very popular." We repeated the question: Popular, yes, but do people ever criticize the racism? He looked incredulous; the question apparently had never entered his mind....

Sexism

...This misogyny is not an idiosyncratic feature of a few fringe films. Based on three studies of the content of mainstream video/DVD pornography over the past decade, we conclude that woman-hating is central to contemporary pornography. Take away every video in which a woman is called a bitch, a cunt, a slut, or a whore, and the shelves would be nearly bare. Take away every DVD in which a woman becomes the target of a man's contempt, and there wouldn't be much left. Mass-marketed pornography doesn't celebrate women and their sexuality, but instead expresses contempt for women and celebrates the charge of expressing that contempt sexually....

<more>


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=91&ItemID=9272

Also see:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/07/treating-porn-like-every-other-media/

[incapsulated]

18. Porn is as sexist and as corporatist...

As the rest of our culture. Truth is, MONEY is what washes everything clean in this country. That's why it's suddenly "ok" to talk about or consume porn.

Women are exploited all the time in the media. Racism is also a fact of life. That porn has both is hardly surprising and given it's nature and history, it's going to be low-life, offensive and stupid a lot.

I don't defend or promote porn, it's just there.

[bloom]

19. By the nature

of porn being "hidden" it has been allowed to be more racist and sexist/misogynist that it would have been had it been out in the open.

So one point is - now that it is getting more out in the open - it's time to criticize these things.

It's like you can't have it both ways - you can't have it out in society - expect to be acceptable AND have it continue to be racist and sexist.

[mzmolly]

22. Agreed.

Thanks for the article as well.

[incapsulated]

25. It probably will be

If for no other reason than such large amounts of money are involved.

There is already an effort to clean up it's image a bit, by some producers. But there will always be a seedy underside. Not all porn is nice, vanilla sex. Suitable for suburban couples. Each market will cater to it's own audience, regardless of what "society" thinks. Especially if they are raking in big bucks. They will only go so far to appease critics if it effects their bottom line.

Porn is never going to be debated like other media because of this. That's what I mean when I say it is it's "nature". It's diverse content is always going to offend someone, somewhere, and often for very different reasons. Part of it's allure is it's taboo.

[mongo]

28. Another steaming heap

and I resent the Author telling me that it's LEFTIST to want to impose controls over free speech in America -- that's not LEFTIST -- it's UNAMERICAN!

Protecting free speech - including sexually explicit speech from both RW religious censors and Authoritarian Socialists should be a top priority for progressive people.

[bloom]

31. Should it be a "top priority" for progressives to be racist and sexist?

I think not. I expect liberals to expect more from themselves.

If the conservatives want to be corporate-loving sexist, racist pigs - well there's not much I expect to be able to do to change that. Look at what they are already doing. BushCo wouldn't know how to consider the rights or well-being of others if his life depended on it.

[mongo]

34. Maybe, just maybe it's progressive

to respect the right of adults to view the entertainment of their choice in the privacy of their own homes.

Maybe it's not so progressive to be a shill for the religious right's crusade for censorship.

I don't suppose you saw the Rita Cosby special? We're all those people in the industry they interviewed, just horribly humiliated and oppressed?

[bloom]

35. Maybe, just maybe - it is not progressive

to sell racist and sexist stuff and brag about it.

And maybe you don't understand that it's about people choosing NOT to support racism and sexism with their dollars.


Maybe you have no idea what Jensen and DInes are talking about at all.

[mongo]

36. Maybe it's Jensen and Dines that have no idea what they are talking

about. You want to talk about racist and sexist WORKS, fine. If you want to say a particular work is bad, fine. But don't go and talk about a WHOLE FUCKING GENRE that YOU know nothing about.

Also, your racism and sexism are SUBJECTIVE. I'm sure Jensen and Dines find sexism under EVERY rock -- that is what they are getting PAID to do.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. The ACLU is an organization that fights censorship.

James Dobson's Focus on the Family, "Concerned Women for America", The Christian Coalition, and Phylis Schlafly's Eagle Forum are all adamantly pro-censorship of porn.

I guess the ACLU is not progressive, and those other organizations are?

[seabeyond]

20. males dismiss the majority of women view on porn saying puritan

or other derogatory comments, as if we dont like sex, we must have the problem, when it is male taking the female body in exploitation for their personal satisfaction

why would i buy into your argument i am a prude. or i have hang ups. or i dont like sex.... because

i dont want an image of a sexually explicit picture of the female body exaggerated with bold print "porn" on my computer that sits in my kitchen where my young boys come into and read over my shoulder. i am talking 8 and 10. i wouldnt let a porn ad on their computer. why would i have a porn ad sitting on my computer in the kitchen? why should my boys even be reading the word porn at 8 years old?

a lot of people in this world doesn't want porn in their world, a lot of people do. allow those that want porn to have it in their life. allow those that dont want it in their life to not have it, instead on insisting that i must, and if i dont like it i am immature, or a prude. and lets allow the children to not have porn in their life either. that really isn't asking too much from our adults that want to participate in an adult environment.

but thanks for putting everyone down that doesn't want to look at another of the limitless images of naked woman to turn them on.

my husband walked into kitchen with that sitting on my computer and i think for the final time, saw how we females are absolutely inundated with this shit everywhere we turn our head. he too has had enough of it. and he is male. never gave a shit about the stuff one way or another. he is tired of having to keep one eye on tv when the boys are hanging out with him during a football game. all he wants to do is watch some football. but when the kids are hanging out, he has to be ready to draw their attention away, or turn tv off with commercial they have had during football season. this is saturday and sunday afternoons.

so dismiss all of us so easily, just shows how unwilling you are to be open to fellow man, and yes that includes women. that woman after woman would come in and say it is offensive and you male poo poo it with challenging the females sexuality. wow,.... aren't you man

screw that shit

[mzmolly]

23. Great post!

And bravo to your husband!!!

[mongo]

30. Sorry you don't have a right to be never offended in our society

We are talking about an OUTLINE of a WOMAN. How can that be so offensive in the first place?

I hope you are just as rightously indignant about the Devil ad (with penis) on the latest page right now...

[seabeyond]

51. i had to scroll down to find that.

it isnt visible everytime hittin discuss board. but if you would like me to be offended for you, i will. so little and too old of eyes hard to see much of anything. but then this really wasnt the argument that first day was it mongo. it manifested into this argument, but that isnt what we were talking the first day. the first day was why msnbc chose to put that ad on this board and the other democratic boards.......and how the news and other are using porn to up the viewership

[Warren DeMontague]

47. And other people can float miles of psychobabble-filled rationalizations

to justify censorship and telling other CONSENTING ADULTS what they can or cannot do--- with their own bodies.

Pro choice my ass.

[seabeyond]

52. i did not tell a single person what they can or cannot do with their

body or anything else. bogus argument

[Warren DeMontague]

64. 'kay. Then we're in agreement on the core issue. Sorry.

I'm opposed to censorship. Doesn't mean I have to LIKE everything everyone else is reading, watching, or getting their jollies to.

I don't expect 'porn advertising' on DU, either. But I didn't think that ad rose to the threshold.

[ToeBot]

21. I don't know, looks kinda average - even for demon pipe n/t

[RazzleDazzle]

24. !!!! STRAWMAN ALERT !!!! STRAWMAN ALERT !!!!

Unfortunately, it vanished before I could get properly worked up into a good, puritan-style lather.

It's not about puritanism. I've never seen an argument against pornography among people on the left that centered around anything remotely puritan or even morality-based, as goes the other popular strawman argument. I haven't seen any here either. I suspect you know it.

The anti-pornography arguments are about oppression and exploitation of women (sexism and misogyny) and, as post #16 (I think it is) by bloom points out, racism too.

But it's obviously asking way too much of people who love and apparently need their porn to give it up just because it hurts people, I suppose. Even -- and maybe especially -- people who consider themselves lefties.

I want women respected as women, and porn takes our culture in exactly the opposite direction. It's hard to command respect when you're naked. You can command a cerain amount of leering and lust, but not respect.

You can contemplate the whole thing yourself: one way to humiliate prisoners is by making them disrobe. It's not a position of power, not even if the disrobee "chooses" to do it herself. It just isn't. It's a position of vulnerability, and physical and emotional and sexual vulnerability is the antithesis of self-empowerment. It is powerlessness, for which some women are paid pretty well in exchange for giving up so much of their personal power.

Some women think they have power over men when they engage in such behavior, and for a short time they seem to have. But it's short-lived and depends entirely on the men's slavery to their own debased appetites. Once that's gone (spent), so is said "power."

Besides, "power over" others isn't real power anyway. Only self-empowerment is real and authentic. Power over is an illusory system of patriarchy and always depends on having or keeping one or more others in inferior positions. One has only to think of how rampant the whole concept of conquest is in most pornography to realize that this built-in inferiority is quite possibly the real appeal of pornography along with all the other tools and institutions of oppression: they put and keep whole classes of people in inferior positions so that others can FEEL (but not actually "be") superior.

Real men don't need that, and don't find the inherent oppression and humiliation of others of any interest.

[mzmolly]

26. Awesome post!

:toast:

[bloom]

27. Well said.

It's interesting to me that Robert Jensen could easily just focus on anti-war/anti-imperialism efforts - but he chooses to attack the pornography industry as well.

Social Domination is an aspect of both imperialism and pornography - as you describe.

[Berry Cool]

29. Naked demons? A guy with horns??

Are you guys looking at the same Keith Olbermann ad I am? :rofl:

(yeah, I know what you're talking about)

[Warren DeMontague]

41. And, again, where precisely

does censorship fit into that whole equation?

[bloom]

50. .....well

I don't think it's possible or even desirable to censor pornography as a whole.

But there are a lot of people who don't want DU to become a site for porn advertisers or for progressives to become identified with racist and sexist imagery.

I think the title of the Jensen/Dines article sums up the situation pretty well. And I recommend the whole article also.

Do we want profit-hungry corporative executives constructing our culture?

[mongo]

56. So you would prefer what?

Do we want profit-hungry corporative executives constructing our culture?


What do you want, a panel of renouwned scientists and academics deciding the programming on TV? Deciding what Americans "should" watch? Defining our "culture" for us?

I don't want totalitarain socialists constructing our culture either, thank you.

I don't think it's possible or even desirable to censor pornography as a whole.

Then why do you carry the torch against porn - every day? Why do you enable the religious right's war on free expression?

[bloom]

65. Seems to me

that you want to push the idea that the progressive culture should accept the idea that smut - including racist and sexist smut - is acceptable.


I happen to be one who disagrees.


If you can push the idea that it's acceptable - why shouldn't I be able to push the idea that it isn't?


You say that I enable the religious right - and I disagree - and I've posted plenty of leftist arguments that back that up.


I say that you would like to enable a "profit-hungry" sexist culture - and you do it with every post.


(I don't rail against it every day - just every now and then.)

[mongo]

71. You never answered my question

Do we want profit-hungry corporative executives constructing our culture?

What would you prefer?

[bloom]

73. Something else

And I think if there is going to be any hope for our culture - we are going to have to find something else.

I have been reading Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth - and he talks about the lack of myth and ritual in people lives as they grow up and the vacuum that this causes.

It may be up to the artists.

People are going to have to stop working against a positive culture. It's funny to me that the Fundamentalists think that they are working toward what they think is morality - and yet they back the corporate world and work against what they think they are working for.

I think there are a lot of progressives who want a positive "myth" instead of having a corporate, consumer, nihilistic mentality. Maybe we'll have to create it here - on the "internets".

[mongo]

86. So the question is -- how are you going to create it?

because even if you are not for censorship, the sources you like to link to are. Forced culture by removing the "bad" part of entertainment.

[mongo]

84. Let me answer another one of your questions

If you can push the idea that it's acceptable - why shouldn't I be able to push the idea that it isn't?

Let's say a DU'er comes on every few days and makes posts like -- "I am pro-choice but I think abortion is terrible and I'm going to do everything I can to keep people from getting abortions". Let's say they like to post pictures on DU of aborted fetuses.

And post links to anti-choice sites, etc. Not religious sites, but anti-choice sites none the less.

Would you get the feeling that this person is progressive? Would you question their agenda? Would you see them shilling opinions for the anti-choice crowd?

How much different are your posts -- "you're not for censorship but..." and then you post links to sites that obviously are for censorship.

I know you're not a republican, or conservative. What I fear is that you are a totalitarian socialist, judging by the links you provide.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. If you don't like the culture someone is trying to sell you

Make some of your own, that's my advice.

It's like railing against shitty music, or shitty art... Well, you could do that all day- or you could go out and try to create some of your own that is more to your liking.

I actually agree with you about the ads here- but I would be heartily surprised to see bona fide 'porn advertisers' on DU. In my mind, I think calling that ad a 'porn ad' is beyond a stretch. As is calling a neon line vaguely -vaguely- in the shape of a woman 'racist and sexist imagery'.

[bloom]

66. well - you know what

I do make some of my own.


And sometimes when I'm not doing that - I'm posting my opinions.


I wouldn't say that the neon porn women were racist and sexist - but they do represent (and I believe they were meant to represent) a racist and sexist tradition that still continues and if anything - is growing.

I think the ads were also meant to be "in your face" sorts of ads - to go along with the content of the shows - and to get people to click on the ads.

[mongo]

32. Forget strawmen -- it takes a straw village...

But it's obviously asking way too much of people who love and apparently need their porn to give it up just because it hurts people, I suppose. Even -- and maybe especially -- people who consider themselves lefties.

Yep, those movies in my back room jump right off the shelves and injure people. Below you talk about empowerment -- how empowered can you be if you are HURT by a movie?

I want women respected as women, and porn takes our culture in exactly the opposite direction. It's hard to command respect when you're naked. You can command a cerain amount of leering and lust, but not respect.

And what about the rest of society? Do you want ALL media to reflect YOUR sensibilities? How respectful of men are most sitcoms on TV? Isn't it just that you only want your views reflected back at you from the world?

You can contemplate the whole thing yourself: one way to humiliate prisoners is by making them disrobe. It's not a position of power, not even if the disrobee "chooses" to do it herself. It just isn't. It's a position of vulnerability, and physical and emotional and sexual vulnerability is the antithesis of self-empowerment. It is powerlessness, for which some women are paid pretty well in exchange for giving up so much of their personal power.

Wow. Comparing porn to prisoner abuse. No strawmen here whatsoever.

Some women think they have power over men when they engage in such behavior, and for a short time they seem to have. But it's short-lived and depends entirely on the men's slavery to their own debased appetites. Once that's gone (spent), so is said "power."

But what we need is for YOU to have power of THESE WOMEN, right? And nice that you think that our biological sex drive is a "debased appetite".

Besides, "power over" others isn't real power anyway. Only self-empowerment is real and authentic. Power over is an illusory system of patriarchy and always depends on having or keeping one or more others in inferior positions. One has only to think of how rampant the whole concept of conquest is in most pornography to realize that this built-in inferiority is quite possibly the real appeal of pornography along with all the other tools and institutions of oppression: they put and keep whole classes of people in inferior positions so that others can FEEL (but not actually "be") superior.

Your meme seems to be "porn exists to keep women down". If you are self-empowered, how exactly does a movie "keep you down", especially if you don't see it?

Real men don't need that, and don't find the inherent oppression and humiliation of others of any interest.

What a bunch of emotional psycobabble here. NO real facts or data to back you up, but hey -- you just KNOW it's wrong, so keep bashing it.

[Berry Cool]

39. I am of the opinion myself

that every piece of porn makes all women less, because it sends the message that women are valued only for their physical appearance and their status as sexual playthings.

But then, that's just me.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. So human beings are one-dimensional, then?

Every time ANY two naked people have sex on film, it diminshes ALL women? How, precisely, does that work?

Any time ANY woman is naked, (I think you found a nice argument for Burquas) it becomes impossible to take all-Capital-W-women-as-a-category seriously? Who operates like that? Last time I checked, we were all multi-faceted beings. We have sexual sides as well as non-sexual sides. Wow, what a concept.

And what about the large amount of enthusiastic, graphic gay porn that is out there? Who -precisely- does that 'send a message' about?

[mongo]

48. You could say that about a lot of things

that every piece of porn makes all women less

Tv, movies, wait staff...

Did Tom Cruise make all men less when he jumped up and down on Oprah's couch?

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I have sex with my wife

does that make me utterly incapable of dealing with a woman as a bank teller, or a cop, or a senator, or as anything other than a sex partner?

Wow. What a simplistic piece of work I am.

[RazzleDazzle]

59. Totally predictable

Yep, those movies in my back room jump right off the shelves and injure people. Below you talk about empowerment -- how empowered can you be if you are HURT by a movie?

Oh, gee. Do you taunt African Americans by asking them how empowered they can possible by if they feel harmed or offended by the use of "nigger" or Jews by the word "kike"? Or gays by the word "fag"? Are you telling them they really have nothing to complain about? In actuality, a pornographic movie is far worse because it depicts the humiliation of another human being at length. This argument is an example of blaming the victim: taunting the victim for not being "strong enough" to withstand the assault.

And what about the rest of society? Do you want ALL media to reflect YOUR sensibilities?

Basic human respect isn't just a matter of my personal sensibilities. It's true that there are people who don't get it about basic human rights in this regard, just as there are some people these days who seem to think it's okay to torture people. But that doesn't make them right. There are some things that really aren't open to personal opinion, but rather personal awareness and enlightenment. Not torturing people is a basic for civilized societies; so is not depicting them in debased and humiliated ways.

How respectful of men are most sitcoms on TV?

I don't hear too many men complaining -- after all, with all but a few exceptions, men still rule the world. The "disrespect" of men in most TV sitcoms is really just an example of exactly how much power they have: men have so much power in the world as a class that they can't be harmed by being made fun of in obviously humorous ways. It's safe to joke about men: few to no actual men are going to suffer as a result.

Isn't it just that you only want your views reflected back at you from the world?

What I want is respect for all members of currently oppressed groups as a basic human right. As I said above, that's not about mere personal "sensibilities" or preferences or personal opinions, it's a basic human right. It's a shame you put yourself in a position to argue against basic human dignity and respect for slightly more than half of the world's population.

Wow. Comparing porn to prisoner abuse. No strawmen here whatsoever.

No, I consider that a purposeful misreading of what I did say in order to try to slap it down -- another strawman, actually. I pointed out that people without clothes are less powerful and used prisoners as an example to illustrate my point. You can't argue the point so you try to twist it.

But what we need is for YOU to have power of THESE WOMEN, right?

They don't HAVE power -- they have an illusion of power, and live a rather miserable existence from a psychological, emotional and spiritual perspective. So, no. I neither want what they have or think they have as power, nor do I want power OVER them (if that's what you were trying to say). I want them to be able to stand in their own power and dignity.

And nice that you think that our biological sex drive is a "debased appetite".

Putting words in my mouth. I don't happen to think that normal human sex drive is a "debased appetite." I DO think that from a psychological, emotional and spiritual point of view the use of pornography is a debasement of healthy sexuality. (And don't try to jump on this as some moralistic attitude, either, because it's not -- rather, it's about psychological realities, not morality.)

Your meme seems to be "porn exists to keep women down".

Porn is just one of many institutions, practices, tools that keep one part of the human population of the planet enslaved, in cases both literal and figurative. From a sociological perspective, yes, it exists in part to keep women down and also to keep many men distracted and addicted. No one wins here but the pornographers. Society is not in any way elevated or improved or benefited in any positve way by its existence aside from money for a few. You could say the same about the mafia, or the kind of crime we see in the GOP-controlled Congress.

If you are self-empowered, how exactly does a movie "keep you down", especially if you don't see it?

Well, I don't recall claiming that I was self-empowered, tho I do try to work for that goal.

But to answer your question: all women of every age and circumstance are made "less than" because of the existence of pornography because they are treated as things (not humans) -- and sexual things at that -- due entirely to their femaleness, their sexuality.

Sexuality itself is commoditized in pornography, and therefore cheapened, and so are women as a class or group. No man who indulges in pornography can fully respect women as being every bit the equal of men. It's impossible. Because they're not and can't be the equals of men if they can be portrayed in what amounts to commoditized sexual fantasies that exist FOR the exclusive province of men. Pornography carries the unmistakable message: women exist FOR men, and beautiful and sexy women exist primarily for the sexual titilation and use OF men. Men rule the world, and one of the benefits is getting to drool over sexy women who may or may not have names, but they've definitely got tits and asses, and bare ones at that. Further, those women who aren't beautiful and sexy have less worth and value since commoditized sexuality is one of women's key value and use.

I don't know if you can get all that, since:

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. -- Upton Sinclair

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

63. "a pornographic movie is far worse because it depicts the humiliation of

another human being at length"

How long have you felt that human sex constitutes 'humiliation'?

And -just curious- who is 'debased, humiliated, and commoditized' in GAY porn?

[mongo]

67. Another steaming load to advocate fascist behavior

Human respect and dignity? How about respecting the right of CONSENTING ADULTS to view material made by OTHER CONSENTING ADULTS in the privacy of their own homes?

Prisoner's don't have the option of not taking their clothes off.

Further, those women who aren't beautiful and sexy have less worth and value since commoditized sexuality is one of women's key value and use.

Be carefull -- the truth is coming out here. You somehow feel you are competing with these images, and don't measure up. You want to be a "victim" to porn, to men, whatever. It in itself is a place of power. The belonging of an "oppressed group". Which of course also makes it difficult to understand.

[lildreamer316]

78. My Husband used to be a porn star.

I have never had one instance of disrespect or degredation from him. He considers us best friends and equals; as do I.

You really have no idea of what you are talking about. The bottom line; past all the psychobabble; is that you don't know what it is like in the adult industry unless you have been IN it. Come walk a mile in my five inch heels and then we will talk.(I used to dance for 11 years).I have a college degree and no drug addiction. It is a different world and a different understanding. I am sure I don't know what your world is like and I don't presume to judge. Try to open your mind to the possibility that there is more to it than meets the eye. REALLY. There are people, even here; who have danced and found it degrading. That is a personal experience and one I do not disparage. It is not for everyone; and most do not understand what is underneath.(the last was not directed at those I referenced in the previous sentence; just a general statement.)

Try these: Defending Pornography by Nadine Strossen (you know; the former head of the ACLU)
ANYTHING by Camille Paglia
Sacred Pleasure by Riane Eisler (have you read The Chalice ahd the Blade? A MUST read for any progressive woman!)
Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do; The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society--Peter McWilliams


Try and not live in the box they have prepared for you.

[lildreamer316]

74. "It's hard to command respect when you're naked. "

"You can command a cerain amount of leering and lust, but not respect."

Bullshit.

I can command respect when I am naked. Have done so many times. Have been completely degraded whilst fully clothed. BOGUS ARGUMENT.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Yep, that's a strawman, all right.

A whole bubblin' heap of 'em, in fact.

[NaturalHigh]

37. I saw the ad.

It wasn't much to get worked up about. There are plenty of people around who like to look for an opportunity to be pissed about something.

[WillyT]

38. I Wasn't Able To View It...

My Pornograph hasn't worked in years.

:hide:

[Warren DeMontague]

40. At least now we know...

...where Satan stands on the great circumcision debate.

[incapsulated]

45. Well, you know Lou..

(I call him Lou) is old-school.

:shrug:

[Deja Q]

44. I think I can help:

[Warren DeMontague]

46. That could be a lot of things..

Like, the coastline of Sweden.

Funny, that some of our indignant members were making noises about how their children/husbands 'aren't allowed' to see such smut. Oh, did I say 'smut'? It's a LINE. The letters "B", "V", and "Y" can be awfully suggestive, too. As can various rorshach inkblots. That salt stain under the freeway in Chicago said to contain the image of the Virgin Mary was probably one of the most vaginally suggestive images I saw all year.

Yea. Verily, it is difficult living surrounded by such vile filth.

[seabeyond]

53. i want to watch any father with 8 year old daughter stand and read the ad

i dont believe there wont be a single father that wouldnt be uncomfortable with that. or particularly thrilled that the child is being introduced into the porn world at 8. are you suggesting that is healthy? but really continue to make this an absurd conversation by bringing in the letter y

[mongo]

57. You're beyond reason now

by the time my daughter was 8, I'm sure she had seen that image on plenty of mud flaps. It doesn't register as "something naughty" if you don't make a big deal over it.

[seabeyond]

62. being on a mudflap probably wouldnt generate a lot of attention

and being on the front page, front and center and porn valley, it was pretty blatant. but beyond that mongo, who the fuck cares. what is amazing is how easily you diss the many many people that dont want it in their lives challenging their sexuality. who the hell are you to say you enjoy sex, get more from sex or any other fuckin thing because you are in the porn world. you seem to insist your right to have it. adamently i agree with your right and every adults right to have their porn. yet you have absolutely no respect or courtsey to a person that does not want this in our life. i am not forcing anything on you. you on the other hand insist on forcing something on me, then you tell me i am suppose to like it or something is wrong with me.

i do think it is abusive. i think it is used in a very degrading way to women and objectifying them. i do think for some it is an unhealthy addiction. i also recognize that many adults use porn in a healthy and fun way

dont talk to me about openminded. you are the one that is consistantly being closed minded here

are you suggesting my husband is being deprived because he doesnt get porn. does it count if he says he is totally satisfied without porn and doesnt need or want it in his life. or do you simply dismiss him too. because it doesnt meet what you want from the world.

the majority of women are not going to embrace porn. men make damn sure they arent going to embrace it. too many men use it as a belittling and controling tool against women. you can pretend it doesnt happen, you can ignore it, you can dismiss it. but at least i am being open to all the different avenue of your profession that i am sure you are aware of , but ignore.

if my husband had a problem with me reading romance novels, (i dont read them, i got the real thing, i dont need the fiction, nor want it) then i wouldnt read romance novels. not a big thing to me. compromise. that is love. that is a relationship. if husband needs porn so bad, go......

[mongo]

69. Here's what I don't get

you diss the many many people that dont want it in their lives challenging their sexuality.

If there was an ad on DU for football, would it be "challenging my masculinity"? I don't play sports.

It's the personalization of a simple ad into some attack on your very being that I don't get. It's this idea that somehow watching TWO people have sex on camera is so dehumanizing it's seen as some societal problem, instead of personal baggage if it bothers you.

I like to watch ER, but I can't stand to see the medical stuff. I close my eyes. It's my personal baggage. I don't say that the show demeans sick and injured people, or trivializes their pain, I don't rail against it as some kind of problem with society, because other people like to watch it too.

But with porn, people (especially women) take their own perfosnal insecurities and turn it into some kind of argument about society.

[omega minimo]

72. ...and yet calls for simple respect are reacted to as an attack on porn

"But with respect, people (especially men) take their own perfosnal insecurities and turn it into some kind of argument about porn."

[Warren DeMontague]

60. It's not "the porn world"

It's a neon outline of what could, possibly, maybe, sure-okay-I-might-be-able-to-see-it-that-way be a woman.

Frankly, I would think the uncircumcised demon standing menacingly and swinging his satanic tackle in the other gentleman's face would be far more upsetting to the sensibilities of your avg. 8 year old. But maybe that's just me.

[mongo]

54. Can you imagine the outrage

if a Du'er said that his wife isn't allowed to read romance novels?

[Warren DeMontague]

61. Seeing as I'm married to a fellow adult

I can't imagine having the nerve to try to tell her what she can or can't look at, watch, or read.

[omega minimo]

68. Another master bait & switch, poor widdle porn people shouting down women

This whole string is another master bait & switch, poor widdle porn people shouting down women.

You guys love to switch the discussion to your predetermined attitudes. ANY mention of legitimate concerns pushes your buttons and the same old same old erupts. Somehow you are persecuted and everyone is out to tell you what to do and blah blah blah.

You shout down other points of view and make them disappear and then they bubble up occasionally and you go back to flinging the same old poo.

There were some new voices objecting to the presence of the imposing ad at the top of the Discuss page for days. They made simple statements like "Doesn't reflect well on DU. Doesn't belong on a progressive board."

That's what was being discussed. Those are valid viewpoints. Bringing it up is not an automatic attack on all the things you hold dear and feel so defensive about..................

You guys jumping on any one with your vicious vitriol and killing discussions is what REALLY kills free speech on DU. If you can't discuss, don't attack. Nobody wants to play with you and you end up playing with yourselves, driving away new and reasonable voices. Your behavior also doesn't reflect well on DU.

[incapsulated]

75. Any time porn rears its head (no pun intended) on DU

It turns into a flame fest. There seem to be certain discussions that can't be had here rationally or politely. (like, oh, the death penalty)

I come down in the center of the issue, I sympathize with both sides. I'm an old school feminist and I understand and appreciate the arguments from that standpoint. As an artist, I am also very sensitive to issues of censorship of any kind. As a person, well, I would be lying if I said there wasn't some porn that I like, myself. I'm also very, eh, open minded on these issues and have friends who are in the "industry" (on a very small scale) so it's personal, too.

:shrug:

[omega minimo]

76. One difficulty is staying on topic

and another is the gang of cutthroats that have all their one-size-fits-all arguments ready to spew every time their buttons get pushed. There was one very funny, snarky, clever post on one of the "neon ad" threads-- but her assumptions and cliched attutudes about Puritans and persecution was way over the top and approaching :tinfoilhat: It's tilting at windmills. It's fighting paper tigers instead of discussing with those ACTUALLY PRESENT.



The topic of discussion about the "Discuss" page ad spot was about the cartoon-- not about the whole bloody subject of porn. As I said to the gangbangers:

"There were some new voices objecting to the presence of the imposing ad at the top of the Discuss page for days. They made simple statements like "Doesn't reflect well on DU. Doesn't belong on a progressive board."

"That's what was being discussed. Those are valid viewpoints. Bringing it up is not an automatic attack on all the things you hold dear and feel so defensive about.................. "

[incapsulated]

77. I don't really see it that way

We were just kind of joking about it and bloom (post #16) posted the whole thing on porn. It just sort of took on it's own life from there.

The objection to the ad was mainly from those who thought it was sexist, although some just thought it was sleazy. When you say it's sexist to see an image like that, which was an ad for a show about porn, then it usually gets into an argument about porn and how it represents women.

I don't think most people on DU are capable of being shouted down unless they are in the minority to the point of being almost alone. I haven't seen that on this issue, yet. People who are strongly against porn or the ad aren't going to sit down and shut up no matter what arguments are thrown at them. It just starts getting so personal so fast I think people want to avoid the issue altogether. I've only given up on something I feel strongly about if it gets me too upset or I'm so alone it's pointless.

But if you think that the other side here is getting too aggressive, take them on. Argue your point.

Or you can be a coward like me and sit it out and lurk. ;)

[omega minimo]

80. Shouting matches are not discussion

Hurling canned arguments and kneejerk assumptions is not discussion.

It's boring and stupid and pointless, unless the point is just to have a pissing match.

Which is why-- as ever-- the issue/s and discussion and staying on topic boils down to Respect.

Slap fights are stupid.

:hi:

[lildreamer316]

79. Yes and no.

You are right that the topic under discussion turned into yet another discussion on the merits of porn. However; coming from the mongo side of the conversation; it is hard for those of you who have not been involved in any facet of adult entertainment to understand why a simple thing like this raises our hackles. The argument you used could just as easily be turned right back around--why was the ad so offensive to some in the first place? Why the hue and cry? It's just an advertisement designed to get your attention by using *gasp* the neon outline of a naked woman! Oooooo. Wow. If no one had made a big deal....now THAT's progress. No one was selling underage teens into sexual slavery there and the neon outline of a woman has nothing to do with that. So why the uproar? Seems to me someone else was being DEFENSIVE about something! I wouldn't even have noticed the ad was there except for the thread about it. The EXTREMELY quick and NEGATIVE reaction; much like the reaction that we in the industry expect from almost EVERYONE outside of our lives and the whole right wing, bigoted, intolerant, fascist, Republican, fundamentalist driven communities that we have to live in (sorry; I really can't afford to move to LA right now; and why should I have to?) sends up huge alarms that we had better go on the defensive. I constantly have to prove that I am a "real progressive" because of what I chose to do in my life. We are the minority within the minority (except for African American feature entertainers; man they have it rough sometimes to get props for their work)and we are almost the last frontier--we're the group it's ok to bash--EVERYONE does it. We have no rights.
So you bet we're defensive sometimes. Very few can seem to understand that true freedom means freedom for us; too. It seems incomprehensible to many that someone could choose to be involved in any aspect of this lifestyle. THere is more, SO SO SO much more to this than meets the eye; and it is a culture and a psychology unto itself. Someday I will take the time to try and explain it; but it would take all day--and night.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mongo]

85. vicious vitriol and killing discussions?

This whole string is another master bait & switch, poor widdle porn people shouting down women.

But that statement is of course the best way to start out a "civil" argument.

You guys love to switch the discussion to your predetermined attitudes.

How about this bait-n-switch:

You shout down other points of view and make them disappear and then they bubble up occasionally and you go back to flinging the same old poo.

How come one side of the argument is discussing, and the other side is "shouting down"? And where was the first poo flung in this otherwise light-hearted thread?

Pot meet kettle.

[bloom]

87. You would like to get all of the arguments against you deleted -

wouldn't you. Get them deleted - so nobody can read them.

Censorship? Hell yeah.

[mongo]

88. Seeing how one of the two deleted messages above

is one of MINE, I don't see how that is true.

But yes, I do get tired of the PERSONAL ATTACKS against me.

[Moderator]

89. Locking

While a nice roaring fire is great on a cold winter night, its not so good in the GD forum.