After watching today's news, what if we are wrong?

[CatWoman]

and what if Chimpy really has set the ground work for democracy in the Middle East?

It's all breathless reporting on the Iraqi elections, and a set up for this news cycle.

But then, this may be my OD'ing on hot wings, and I'm speaking and thinking in a blue cheese haze.......

[jane_pippin]

1. Wouldn't change the fact that Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11 though.

And I still don't think bringing democracy to oil rich nations is worth 2000+ dead kids.

[CatWoman]

3. in addition to more than 100,000 dead Iraqis

I've yet for someone to explain (logically) to me why that was/is necessary.

[jane_pippin]

7. Yes, that too. n/t

[jody]

9. delete

[hobbit709]

2. Naw!!

No amount of blue cheese will give you those kind of hallucinations

[KansDem]

4. I have to ponder this...

:freak:

I'll get back to you...

[CatWoman]

LOL

Please,

Please do

:D

[Catherine Vincent]

5. You don't want to OD on hotwings.

That happened to me and it wasn't fun!

[CatWoman]

6. my stomach is making these awful noises

:D

[Catherine Vincent]

21. Just wait until it has to be released.

your face will look like this x(

LOL!

[driver8]

32. I've OD'd on hotwings before...and it was wonderful!!! n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

33. oh really!

How did it feel when it was time to pinch a loaf? :)

[FearofFutility]

36. Think

Ring of Fire:hurts:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

62. In my family we call it "red eye."

[FearofFutility]

70. I think I like that better! n/t

[driver8]

40. A little uncomfortable...

but definitely worth it!

I went to college outside Buffalo and Buffalo is famous for wings. I now live in Southern California. I got together with the Buffalo Bills fan club out here to watch a game at a local bar. I ordered some wings and they came with ranch dressing. I told the bartender, "You are going to have about 200 people from Buffalo in here ordering wings. If you serve ranch dressing instead of blue cheese dressing they are going to be very upset."

The guy took my advice and sent one of his guys out to stock up on blue cheese dressing.

[stray cat]

8. This is the last chance to get it right if it is still possible

For the sake of the Iraqis and all of us I hope it really does work out. However, it will certainly be in spite of Bush and not because of his efforts at "nation building" and at a high cost of Iraqi lives as well as Americans.

[kstewart33]

10. Here's my take:

Election day in January 2005 was wonderful and the media was asking the same question that you posed. And then all heck broke loose.

Election day in October 2005 was almost as wonderful. And more heck broke loose.

Election day today is wonderfully wonderful.

I'm abit skeptical. My prediction--civil war. While we are leaving. And accelerating after that.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

57. Was talking to an 87 year old WW2 vet today.

We agreed on civil war in Iraq. He surprised me when he said here, too. :wow:

[MichiganVote]

11. Some democracy. Men won't let their wives vote and do it for them.

[Seansky]

12. I wish you were right.Vietnam has turned out to be a quieter news generator

in the last decades, it wasn't surrounded by the extremism that exists in the middle east. This isn't just about Iraq, look at Iran, it should have been handled before Iraq was even in the radar. That treat isn't going away. Look at Syria, and in any case, the oil issue will always create levels of instability in that area. The culture and history is too strong to just stabilize because "elections" took place. Also, among many other things, sadly, it seems the elections will not eliminate extremist views again US. I wish the elections would accomplish that, but it seems that the issue isn't that simple since there is a sectarian issue and the new government might be a secular one, which according to this admin's previous arguments, secular government aren't necessarily that democratic.

I just don't see. If Vietnam, with less baggage, didn't become a sample of successful democracy imposed by an outside force, it doesn't seem possible that Iraq would become the middle east mecca for democracy.

[LaurenG]

13. Well maybe democracy can be established but WHY

did we think it was up to us to kill so many people to do it. The entire world should have been a part of it not just us, we are not or shouldn't try to be the "boss" of the world. We look like such a co dependent sick nation.

I think it's the blue cheese for sure. :hug:

[jody]

14. Probability we are wrong is infinitesimal.

:hi: and have a Happy, Happy Holiday Season.

[deadparrot]

15. We did this about year ago, with the January elections.

They fawned over it over a couple days, purple fingers and all that bullshit, only to be met with a huge upswing of insurgent violence in the weeks afterward. :puke:

I'm not holding my breath, let's put it that way.

[keopeli]

16. If we can actually start a functioning Democracy in Iraq, that's a good th

a good thing. We want them to succeed at this so we can bring our troops home.

The problem is simple: the Bushites have changed the rationale so many times. Currently, we are there to "spread democracy". However, spreading Democracy by force has never worked before.

And, no matter what government they can muster, they will still need our security forces for many many years.

Best case scenario is that the Iraqi insurgents are somehow defeated by this election. Any bets on whether or not that will happen.

So, let the press play it up really big. In January, more troops will be killed and more Iraqis will be killed. That's the press that is effecting Bush's support.

Meanwhile, I wish the Iraqis all the good fortune in the world.

[MissMarple]

17. Well, that would be one possitive light about this damn mess.

Now, how about some democracy in the good old U.S.A.? Before we rush in to to save another oil rich country from itself.

[leftofthedial]

18. puppet elections with puppet regime doesn't make "democracy"

are we now responsible for invading every country on earth that has fake democracy or no democracy and repeating our Iraq adventure?

[B Calm]

22. Exactly!! The election in Iraq is a joke!

[KansDem]

24. Only if they attack us first like they did on 9/11!

:crazy:

[Joanne98]

19. Diebold+Democracy=NOT Patriot Act+Freedom=NOT

He STOLE our freedom and democracy, why would he give them theirs?

[DainBramaged]

20. Are our dead just a haze? We've set no groundwork

His buddies are now billionaires from the "un-constructed reconstruction" funds, and when they finish the private deals shipping the stolen oil while they are there, when they are done, they can buy Wal-Mart. Oh, and the private army there protecting what they don't want you to see? More billions.

[leftchick]

23. Howard Zinn has an answer for you Catwoman and it is not Democracy...

This is a great and enlightening interview....

<snip>

Raw Story: Do you think the Iraq situation is "better" than Vietnam because they are having elections?

Zinn: Well, elections are a very, very superficial way of judging whether there is democracy in the country. There were elections taking place in Vietnam in 1967, and they said this is a good sign. It meant nothing, because we were still bombarding the country... the Vietnamese people were not liking us anymore.... the elections are held amidst the military occupation of the country.

Raw Story: So basically democracy under the gun is not democracy.

Zinn: Yeah, exactly.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/As_Iraq_votes_liberal_historian_looks_1215.html

[G_j]

54. "democracy under the gun is not democracy."

Yeah, exactly

[leftchick]

59. Don't you love Howard?

He always brings me to tears with his brutal honesty.

[G_j]

68. the best

love the man

[tishaLA]

25. They tried to trot out the "chimpy was right" thing before

....like in the spring, I think, when Maher and Stewart entertained the idea..and then many more troops died. The current hopefulness will pass.

[The Political Eye]

26. Hopefully Democracy will develop in the Middle East but

I try and separate my feelings about Bush and whether, in the end, a particular policy of his administration works.

My sense is that it may work but, that's still doesn't absolve GWB and the neocons from the responsibility for the way they approached the objective, an objective many would agree with.

Bush used a war to attempt to accomplish what could be done through steady and thoughtful diplomacy.

[silverlib]

27. Deleted - dupe

[silverlib]

28. Most of these people are voting

in hope that after the election, the US will go home. I will never believe that we are there to spread democracy and I do not think the Iraqi people believe this either.

We are there for empire building, nothing more and nothing less. We will not pull the troops out. I only wonder if this is the last election the Iraqi people will ever have.

[librechik]

29. lots of places short of ballots andvoting equipment.

Sunni areas are as bad as Ohio.

This election is a typical Bush-run fiasco, a steaming pile of manure spray-painted to look like pot roast.

[Johonny]

30. What does a democracy mean

If the Iraqi people are still murdered for ethnic reasons. Still hold a long standing hatred of the west. Still hold a long standing hatred of Jews. Still hold long standing views about womens rights. Does it really matter if they vote or not. I think in many ways the people of Iraq may be worse off under their future government than they were under their dictator. This is a win only under the shallow view that Democracy = good.

[NoPasaran]

31. If we are wrong then our troops start coming home next week.

Personally I'm betting on the blue cheese hallucinations.

[tx_dem41]

34. Whatever our ideology, we should be rooting for a successful

election. I think any result of this election is going to be very shaky for awhile in the best scenario. It was a country artifically drawn up after WWI, and the animosities were allowed to grow as other countries, the Brits being most complicit early on, were great about taking advantage of those animosities. That said, we should all be rooting for a united, democratic Iraq.

[CrispyQ]

35. Without potable water, food, hospitals & schools, a job,

and basically a secure place to live & conduct business, maybe democracy is not first on their list of priorities.

I hope the Iraqi's can make it work, I truly do. It will be due to the will of the Iraqi people if democracy takes hold, not anything the dimson did. I hope they can persevere in light of the heinous crimes our nation committed against them.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

63. Where can we get good data and information

about what is the REAL state of Iraq in regard to the things you mentioned..water, food, etc. ?

I mean impartial reporting. I haven't found any yet.

Anybody?

[CrispyQ]

66. I would like to know too.

Don't you think, if there really were rebuilding of Iraq to the degree the pukes claim, with each new school opening, with each new hospital, with the roll out of each new water/electricity plant, it would be reported on every nightly newscast, non-stop? They would be interviewing grateful Iraqi's who would tell how wonderful that they now have potable water, that their children are going to new schools. That more than anything makes me question the 'rebuilding effort.'

Oh & the fact that these are the most ruthless, corrupt bunch of crooks to be in power in ages.

[Initech]

37. How can an election being held by an occupying force be considered

democracy? Am I missing something here?

[Solly Mack]

38. If, in a hundred years from now, Iraq manages to snatch democracy from

the jaws of an illegal American imperialistic invasion and occupation, and it (Iraq) is the only real democracy on the face of the planet, Bush would still be a war criminal. He would still be wrong.

He lied
He manipulated intelligence
He terrorized Americans with fear-mongering
He illegally invaded Iraq, waging a war of aggression (a war crime in and of itself)
He promoted a policy of torture
He violated the Constitution, as well as federal and international law

Bush will NEVER be right about Iraq. EVER.

[cornermouse]

39. Again. (sigh)

Iraqi women who have never worn those burka things in their lives are now having to wear them or accept the fact that they could be risking their lives if they don't. You may call that democracy and progress. I don't.

[G_j]

41. Nuremberg: Aggressive war is utterly renounced &condemned as policy

Statement by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert L. Jackson
Chief U.S. Prosecutor
at the Nuremberg Tribunals

August 12, 1945
on War Trials Agreement; August 12, 1945

There are some things I would like to say, particularly to the American people, about the agreement we have just signed.
For the first time, four of the most powerful nations have agreed not only upon the principles of liability for war crimes of persecution, but also upon the principle of individual responsibility for the crime of attacking the international peace.

Repeatedly, nations have united in abstract declarations that the launching of aggressive war is illegal. They have condemned it by treaty. But now we have the concrete application of these abstractions in a way which ought to make clear to the world that those who lead their nations into aggressive war face individual accountability for such acts.
<snip>

"We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which
their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the
war, but that they started it. And we must not allow
ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war,
for our position is that no grievances or policies will
justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced
and condemned as an instrument of policy."
<snip>

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert L. Jackson
Chief U.S. Prosecutor
at the Nuremberg Tribunals
August 12, 1945

READ THE ENTIRE STATEMENT HERE:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/jack02.htm

[bigtree]

42. democracy? where did Bush introduce democracy? This is a junta.

This is a government takeover. Is this the model he wants for other nations in the region to follow? Bomb and kill innocents and any resistors to your consolidation of power? Rape a country, impregnate them with your violence, and force them to carry the product of your abuse to term. Jingoistic rationalizing.

This is not democracy, it's a country trying to wrest back control from a foreign invader, grasping at the thin threads of power we will allow them to cobble together at the point of our weapons.

[Cleita]

43. Well. maybe if they have transparent and fair elections there,

there is a chance we might have them here in the future. Remember when Bush promised to bring universal health care to Iraq? I asked why he wasn't giving us universal health care? Of course we never heard anything about that anymore, so we don't know if Iraqis have a health plan or not. It will be fabulous if at least one thing is right in that mess, but I don't have my hopes up.

[gulfcoastliberal]

44. Did you forget the sarcasm tag?

Because you must surely be joking if you think there isn't a civil war raging and this "election" (certainly there won't be any fraud like the last "election" to throw the results to those who have US approval) is going to make everything ok.

[LSK]

45. WHO CARES - YOU DONT INVADE COUNTRIES THAT DONT ATTACK YOU

PERIOD. END OF STORY.

[stray cat]

50. BUT WE DID INVADE - SO NO EASY END TO STORY

Closing our eyes and blaming Bush doesn't change any of the facts. What is our responsibility to those we criminally invade. Even criminals are forced to make restitution or are we too good for restitution?

[LSK]

51. the answer is 100% opposite of what we are currently doing

Hire Iraqis to rebuild their country. We are making Halliburtan rich when Iraqis could be doing the job.

Get most of our troops out of there. We are the target.

Get the UN in there.



We are doing NONE of this and will just make things worse. The Bush crime family only wants the oil and all the fat contracts.

War is profit.

[G_j]

58. about that oil...

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2005/crudedesigns.htm

Crude Designs: the Rip-off of Iraq's Oil Wealth (November 22, 2005)

Greg Muttitt's bombshell paper confirms what many have long suspected -- the big US and UK companies have enormous interest in Iraq's giant untapped oilfields. He shows clearly how the companies have been angling to gain control of those fields and now, under the occupation, they are closing in on their goal. Production Sharing Agreements, the companies' favorite legal ploy, have already been negotiated with pliant Iraqi officials. Likely to be rushed-through after the December 2005 elections, these contracts may lock Iraq into decades-long arrangements that siphon as much as $200 billion from the Iraqi government into company coffers. (Platform, Global Policy Forum and others)

``
Contents

Executive Summary

Glossary

Chapters:


1 - The ultimate prize: Anglo-American interests in Gulf oil

2 - Re-thinking privatisation: Production sharing agreements

3 - Pumping profits: Big Oil and the push for PSAs

4 - From Washington to Baghdad: Planning Iraq's oil future

5 - Contractual rip-off: the cost of PSAs to Iraq

6 - A better deal: Options for investment in Iraqi oil

7 - Conclusion

Appendices:

1 - How a Production Sharing Agreement works

2 - Discounting in oilfield economics – key concepts

3 - Iraqi oilfield data

4 - Economic analysis - methodology and assumptions

References

About the publishers


List of tables:

5.1 - Impact of PSAs on Iraqi state revenues

5.2 - Impact of PSAs on discounted Iraqi state revenues

5.3 - Impact of PSAs on Iraqi revenues at different oil prices

5.4 - Impact of PSAs on oil company profitability

5.5 - Oil company profitability at different oil prices

6.1 - Foreign investment in the world’s major oil reserves

A3.1 - Data on 25 undeveloped Iraqi oilfields


read paper at:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2005/crudedesigns.htm

[xchrom]

46. who cares?

bush setting a precedent for an invasion of an unprovoked nation{where are the wmd's?} is the imortant thing for me.

saddam was a bad man who deserved to have bad things happen to him -- the iraqis are deserving of whatever self determination they see as fit for them.

but setting a precedent for mass murder and calling it self defence is unforgiveable.

[bluestateguy]

47. I'll take that

Spreading our system of poltical economy around the world is not the mandate of the Constitution, and not worth 2152 American lives. If those people want democracy, great. Terrific. I wish them well, but they have to make the sacrifices and suffer the setbacks to have it and to keep it. We should not do that for them.

I said this before. Were just going to have to let the neo-con peckerheads have their day. Tomorrow it will be business as usual again--from purple fingers to blown off limbs.

[sandnsea]

48. Voting does not make democracies

At best, it is only one finger of a democracy, not the whole body. As long as we have paid propaganda, US troops on the frontlines, US corporate control, and other US interference, there will be no democracy in the ME. Let alone a stable, sovereign government.

[LittleClarkie]

49. Here's my take

I started a thread on it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5607744&mesg_id=5607744

That's what they said last time. I'll believe it when I see it. And if it happens it will have been a happy accident, because I have NO faith in this government getting things done right. It will have been done in spite of them.

I think the massive turnout is one big "NOW will you get the FUCK outta my country?!"

[stopbush]

52. Reality will impose itself soon enough, drowning out today's

happy talk.

It always does with bushco.

[Clarkie1]

53. This is why Dems need a responsible plan for success in Iraq

If we simply repeat over and over out of Iraq now, that is no more a strategy than Bush has to help fix, or at least mitigate, the chaos we created and are responsible for there.

If Dems keep level-headed and pragmatic about Iraq, we will be in a better postition politically if in fact Iraq does achieve some measure of success. Hopefully, * will listen to advice from all sources, but inside his little bubble that isn't likely.

[CatWoman]

60. Yes

we all can see that Republicans are not even CAPABLE of coming up with a plan.

At least one that doesn't Swift Boat every one who calls them on their crap.

[Beelzebud]

55. Tell me if you still feel this way a week from now.

Remember the first sham elections they had? The propaganda was the same then, as it is now. Don't fall for it.

[laureloak]

56. It's just a blitz to try to regain support for the war, nothing more. nt

[TallahasseeGrannie]

61. I find the concept honestly very conflicting

My altruistic side wants the best for Iraq..democracy..prosperity. But if Bush turns out to have been "right" it will be a really hard pill to swallow.

But then I can always just remember Katrina. He's kind of a wide target.

[LisaL]

65. Oh for crying out loud. Democracy and prosperity?

Would be nice to have it here in US, let alone Iraq. But I doubt we are in any danger of it actually happening.

[kcwayne]

64. They are electing a theocracy not a democracy

There will be no freedom in Iraq. Only a changing of the guard as to who is the face of the ongoing tyranny. Yesterday it was Saddam. Today it is the US. Tomorrow it will be a puppet of the US, and 10 years, it will be some Ayatollah, dishing out death, injustice, and Sharia.

[Ripley]

67. You are INSANE, admit it

Freaking Cat Loving Southernfucker, You. Blue Cheese can Rot Yer Brain y'know.

I eat it with eggs and noodles. So Sue me.

Snap out of it Woman!

[kentuck]

69. And the world loves us for it...

Not!

The damage done to our prestige around the world cannot be undone so easily. And is a so-called "democracy" in Iraq worth it?

[sendero]

71. Put down..

.... the celery sticks. I'd love it to be true, I'd also love to be a billionaire.

Neither are going to happen :)

[adigal]

72. I thought this, too, last January

but when the insurgency continued after that election, and the Shiites and Sunnis got even further apart this year, I knew they were headed to a Civil War. The worst part is that I heard on NPR yesterday that the Iraqi and Iran have just signed a cooperative agreement; Iran will help train Iraqi soldiers, and the Bush Cabal are in on this. Just breathtaking. Such hypocrisy.