Republicans say Liberalism has failed America

[Bandit]

They say liberals with all their good intentions have actually made America a worse place. I won't say worse than what but I'm wondering what we can say have been our accomplishments since 1950 say. Education has been the battle cry of Liberals but in the last three decades it appears our children are less educated and more prone to crime. If we can't define our successes and do it very plainly we are lost. Republicans are right there with their tough love and reward good teacher/punish bad teacher, school vouchers, etc. Making many Americans say why not give these guys a try because things are so bad anyway how could they get worse and maybe even may get better. How do we combat that attitude. I know we can say we brought about civil rights, womans rights, child labor laws, workers rights, minumum wage. But the Right makes it sound like those are the things that have caused our decay. We need a good solid list of our successes so we can show how we have made a positive impact on society. We need a positive message besides just Bush* is a corrupt, evil, crook.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

1. What about... (might need some number crunching)

Life expectancy, pre and post (insert 20th century liberal victory here). Example: death on birth pre and post birth control.

Literacy, pre and post. Example: literacy among blacks post-desegregation.

Bankruptcy / unemployment / public deficits during Liberal vs. Conservative Administrations? (that's TOO easy)

Come on, I'm a friggin BRAZILIAN for fuxake! You live there, you can surely do better! ;)

[loudnclear]

39. They will keep repeating this over and over and get millions to believe

It's their MO.

[radwriter0555]

40. That's right. NOW the LIBERALS ARE THE ENEMY. This is rovian whisper

campaigning at it's FINEST.

WELL done Karl, WELL DONE!

[rucky]

2. What about the fact that we've had Republicans in power

15 out of the last 23 years

[Bandit]

4. But they come back with that old canard Democrats controlled Congress

for forty years. Congress writes bills and controls purse strings so we have to do better than try and displace blame. We need positive results or else?????????

[ProfessorGAC]

21. But That's A Lie

The Repubs controlled the Senate many times in that 40 years. The Dems controlled THE HOUSE for 40 years. So, that is a lie and a canard.
The Professor

[Mairead]

3. "the Right makes it sound like those caused our decay"

With all respect, I think you're on a fool's errand. Loonies have been saying for years that all these changes have ruined the US. Do you really think they're ever going to stop? I don't.

More to the point: tell the GOP to demonstrate that the majority of people have been better off under them.

[Bandit]

5. So we need to just continue our NEGATIVE message

Republicans bad so vote for us.

[Mairead]

31. I don't think I was saying that. Certainly that wasn't my intention.

My thesis, which I agree I could have expressed better, is that it's not possible to refute assertions that come from a different frame of reference. It would be like trying to explain to a career thief why he should get a job--he wouldn't understand the point of view because in his world he's got a job already.

The only things to do are (a) put the onus back on them to explain why they're better. Their explanations then reveal that they're operating in some other space-time continuum ('feminism causes women to leave their husbands, turn lesbian, and worship Satan' or whatever that lunatic said); and (b) put together a straightforward program that gives obvious benefits and is impossible to tear down on rational grounds. Something like Kucinich's, for example :evilgrin:

[RichM]

6. I see what you're saying - but the truth is that since 1964, liberalism

has not really accomplished much. Rather, it has become a badly weakened political tradition, which has done little more than make one concession after another to conservatives. The direction of the country has thus largely been determined by conservatives. So the last 40 years are not a good place to look, to be able to point to liberal successes.

American liberalism had its heyday from the New Deal until maybe the Nixon presidency. That is where most of the great successes lie. The monstrous thing that America has become is of course most directly due to the rightwing -- but the weakness of liberals enabled it.

[Mairead]

35. I'd date the cave-in from Carter, but I agree with you otherwise

We elected Carter because he's a decent man without completely grasping that his decency is based in his Baptist beliefs and is very conservative. We weren't used to Democratic candidates not being at least conventionally 'liberal', and so we were sandbagged.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. Well, since Republicans have been in power for

15 of the past 23 years, it's hard to blame "liberals" for much of anything, isn't it?

If the country is in a bad way, the Repiggies have to take at least 15/23 of the blame.

[aquart]

8. Child labor laws have brought our decay?

You wanna run that by me again?

Now about these "liberal" laws for workers rights, you know how we got them? By bloody rebellion. By disruption and death. By willingness to starve before we gave in.

What, you think these laws were a gift? We got them because rich men could see the guilotine in front of their faces. Because they were terrified of bloody and open revolt. And there was plenty of that, my bucko.

Rich white men, the greediest most shortsighted assholes on the face of the earth, felt workingmen were so easily and quickly replaceable that it wasn't necessary to pay them enough to feed them or their families. Especially not their families.

They think that again, since laws were relaxed to let them abuse workers in foreign lands. Why pay American a dollar when seven cents will get a child or teenager to work in Thailand? Never mind what it does to the Thais. They're grateful for the work, right? And if they don't like it, they can sell their kids to be sex slaves, can't they? That's big in Thailand. Oh, wait. George is against that. Cheap labor prostitution is cool, but sex is bad. Remember that.

So you think it's wrong and harmful for hardworking Americans to be able to afford homes and medical care and education?

Yet Europe and Canada, which are about to leave us in the dust because they didn't waste their future on a worthless war, manage just fine. I hear Canada has one sweet surplus this year. WE could have had that.

But you go ahead and believe the cause of our problems is that we gave too much to people who work 35 to 90 hours a week, every week except for those legal holidays we legislated. NOT that we gave too much to people who don't lift a finger except to order the solid gold bathroom fixtures.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Bandit]

15. Now we are starting to cook

I love your passion. We need to get to the core. I know and you know that nothing comes easy. The battle is not over. Our fathers and mothers fought hard for what rights we currently enjoy but we are loosing those rights daily and we need to define how they benefit society as a whole. Also what else we would like to accomplish. If we can't define our successes then the GOP surely won't. In fact just the opposite. Our successes will be portrayed as our failures and let GOP fix all our problems that Liberals created.

[Wapsie B]

9. Of course they are.

They're projecting again. They focus on the evils of taxes and how we deserve more of our money. Pretty soon BillyBob and Leroy want a tax rebate to pay for a new bass boat. This slight of hand makes people forget about what these monies pay for in our society and if you cut taxes enough you'll have governments at the Federal, State and Local levels bleeding red ink. It would be great if they truly practiced fiscal conservatism. But these repugs go out and practice deficit spending, driving us to the brink of financial disaster.


So, I'd love to know what konservatism has done to benefit us?

[JHB]

16. And what's wrong with "BillyBob and Leroy" wanting a "bass boat"?

Part of the reason the Rethugs get away with saying things like that are naked class orgional biases like this!

[GainesT1958]

10. Well, they now control the White House and both houses of Congress...

And, in three short years, conservative Repubs have:

1) Turned a Federal budget surplus and declinning National Debt into the WORST budget deficit in history by a wide margin, and an increasing National Debt;

2) CUT $150 million from Federal programs aiding education, after pledging to INCREASE them by that amount;

3) Dumped innumeral expense responsibility for Federal programs on the states, bankrupting them in the process;

4) Rolled back environmental protections;

5) Proliferated monopoly in broadcast media and station ownership;

6) Raised Medicare premiums;

7) Brought major tax reductions for the wealthy, while middle-class tax burdens increase further;

8) Fostered an economic policy that has resulted in the net loss of almost three million jobs since March 2001;

9) Alienated most of our traditional allies abroad with the policy of unilateral, pre-emptive, continuous war--war that's a failure and an increasing economic burden on American taxpayers;

10) Failed miserably in apprehending the mastermind of the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history.

How's that for a "Top Ten List" in countering their "Liberalism has failed us" argument? :D

B-)

[Armstead]

11. Liberalism is the necessary balance to consrrvatism

Frankly, the lying dogs of the hard-right will never concede that anything short of complete corporate fascism is worthwhile. They want to let a dog-eat-dog form on unbridled capitalism create a new version of France prior to the French Revolution.

But to people who are not blinded by fuindamentalist ideology, the list of accomplishments of liberalism are long. But, at base, its role is to provide a counterbalance to the excesses of "markets" anbd ensure that otehr valuyes and interests have a role in society. It is also society's self-policing mechanism, to avoid excessive concentrations of wealth and power. And it is society's conscienbce -- making sure that the needs of the population that fall outside of the commercial/profit omperative are addressed.

[Armstead]

12. Liberalism is the necessary balance to consrrvatism

Frankly, the lying dogs of the hard-right will never concede that anything short of complete corporate fascism is worthwhile. They want to let a dog-eat-dog form on unbridled capitalism create a new version of France prior to the French Revolution.

But to people who are not blinded by fuindamentalist ideology, the list of accomplishments of liberalism are long. But, at base, its role is to provide a counterbalance to the excesses of "markets" anbd ensure that otehr valuyes and interests have a role in society. It is also society's self-policing mechanism, to avoid excessive concentrations of wealth and power. And it is society's conscienbce -- making sure that the needs of the population that fall outside of the commercial/profit omperative are addressed.

[Wickerman]

13. Bullshit

Education has not declined as is so often purported.
As mentioned above the country is much more literate.
The difficulty level and content of courses has greatly expanded.
Huge numbers of children are attending college that never would've dreamed of doing so previously.
We educate more non-native language immigrants than any of country.

Doubt it? look around at folks in their 50's and 60's even 70's. The common everyday working folks. Not the college educated, but the vast majority who received public ed. They can't spell, write, or do simple computation any better than your average High School grad of today.

edit - I am glad that we have spell check nowdays, but I wish I were bright enough to use it prior to posting...

[Bandit]

18. You may be correct but tell that to America as a whole

GOP pounds daily on the education theme. Saying look at our test scores compared to other countries. America is 17 out of thirty five countries taking same or similar exams. If our education system is better why does the common man think differently? We are failing in getting the truth out or any positive news at all.

[kentuck]

14. Liberalism? We hardly knew you.

You have been castrated and humiliated by big money and corporate interests. Capitalism and liberalism cannot co-exist together.

[Redleg]

17. Trust the conservatives to get it all ass-backward.

The liberals who helped bring some measure of economic opportunity to all Americans and who stood up to the depredations of big business have done more for this nation than all the conservative fatcats and their supply-side thinking ever have or ever will.

[Bandit]

20. And which candidate is standing up there saying those words?

:shrug: We are not getting a positive message out there about how we are and have been better for this nation.

[Redleg]

23. Dennis Kucinich is saying that- not in those exact words.

Of course Kucinich is viewed by many as a fringe player. Other candidates will say those good things too, when the time comes. I recall Al Gore saying those things in the 2000 campaign. It's just that the Republican shouters get heard.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

19. Republicans projecting their failure

For the first time in a very long time, Republicans run the whole government. So far, they've failed miserably. They failed to protect the country on 911. They failed to keep the economy strong.

By Republican logic, it must be someone else's fault, so they say it's Clinton's fault or "liberals" in general.

[wryter2000]

22. With all due respect

I know we can say we brought about civil rights, womans rights, child labor laws, workers rights, minumum wage. But the Right makes it sound like those are the things that have caused our decay.

With all due respect, here's where you allow them to define the conversation. How on Earth could these things cause decay? Refusing to allow children to work in factories is bad for their morals? Keeping women subservient is good for society?

As long as you're going to allow ridiculous statements like this to go unchallenged, you have no hope of convincing anyone of anything. Turn their conversation on its ear and state proudly that only Democrats/moderates in the Congress have kept conservatives from making things way, way worse! Then, point to the top 10 that someone else very thoughtfully put here to show what they've done in the three years they've been in charge. That's decay!

[Bandit]

24. Yes those are all very good negatives to lay on the republicans

I'm asking for positives from our side. We can and should do both. Right now all I am hearing is negative stuff. Republicans bad so vote for us. We need to do better

[leftofthedial]

25. They are correct. Liberalism has failed America.

We failed to remove the neocons from the gene pool and have allowed the Repukes to run everything for the last generation. As a result, America is one fucked up place.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

26. yup they say FDR was an evil socialist and repukes will kill the New Deal!

the new judge bush sent up for DC district court appiontment is on record for stating this...janice brown..she is up before the judicial committee now

[TreasonousBastard]

27. It is a lie, but...

it is not a rational one, and can't be disputed by rational means.

It's one of those damn memes that has infected society. If people are pissed off about something, give them a target for their anger-- Jews, blacks, Asians, liberals, conservatives, communists, capitalists, vegetarians... you name it. Racial and ethnic enemies are a bit out of favor lately, and "liberals" seem to be the enemy of the day.

Wasn't always them pesky libruls, of course-- we kicked Goldwater's ass because we painted him as a rightwing nutter. The Communist Party was bigger than most people want to admit in the 30's because everyone was busy blaming the capitalists for the Depression. And there was that "Yellow Peril" business.

Nope, we can point to the Pure Food Act and trustbusting of Teddy Roosevelt and the reformers back then. We can talk about the reforms Jacob Reis and Bernard Baruch pushed. We can talk all we want about the public works of FDR, and how Social Security and Medicare have saved so many lives. We can talk about our cleaner rivers and air, and how they could, and should, be cleaner. We can talk about how many have actually been fed with food stamps, and how many have actually been pulled out of poverty by the antipoverty programs.

But it won't make a damn bit of difference because that's not the message of the day.

Here's how they do it--

Everyone forgets how bad things were before the labor laws were introduced and unions got a foothold. Haymarket Square and the Triangle fire are tiny footnotes to history, and the overwhelming misery of American workers in the early 20th century is largely unknown.

What is known is that there are labor problems now. And these problems exist now that the solutions to the earlier problems are in place. Ergo, the problems now are due to those programs and solutions that helped with the earlier problems. Unions, the minimum wage, child labor laws, nondiscrimination rules, etc.-- they must be the problem.

See how this works? Apply the same principle to affirmative action, the Clean Air Act, or any other progressive program. Blame the program for the problems, not the underlying reason for the program's existence.

And remember, if we blame the program, we don't have to blame ourselves for letting the situation happen.

So, what do we do?

Beats hell out of me. Since the rightwing doesn't really do much at all but whine, it's tough to put a finger on something they did to cause problems and reverse the psychology.

Methinks the current national conservative sentiments will simply run their course as they always have, and the pendulum will swing back. It's just a question of when.

[canuckagainstBush]

28. when?

America was never ruled by liberals. The GOP always trys to portray moderate centrists as communists.

[Mechatanketra]

29. Reminds me of a line I spun out once.

"The Republicans used to say that 'forty years of liberalism have ended in failure.' This administration has proven that conservative politics is ten times more efficient than liberalism -- it only takes them four years to fail."

[SoCalDem]

30. How do you eat an elephant???

One bite at a time...

That's the republican philospohy and since their symbol is an elephant , it fits them like OJ's glove..

They (as a unit) figured out YEARS ago, that they did not need to use a frontal attack.. They were/are satisfied to nibble at the edges, and tweak legislation "just enough" to achieve their goals...

The real question is "what makes them WANT to undo advances in our country?"...

I think it goes waaaaaaay back to the robber baron days and maybe further back than THAT.. The stratified society is their ultimate goal, and most of the programs that liberalism tout as successes, are failures to them..

We succeeded too well, and too fast.. Automation was supposed to help the workers do their jobs, but it was not long until the "bosses" saw that automation could REPLACE the worker.. We saw it in the industrial revolution, and we still see it today.. Corporations are portrayed as these benevolent organizations that are providing jobs for america, but they would (and do) cut their workforce at the drop of a hat if it means they make less profits ..

Republicans has always seen themselves as "uppercrust", and most of the advances in liberalism have threatened their superiority.. The civil rights movement is a prime example of this..

Extending rights to black people threatened their way of life.. There was a time when middle class people employed maids, housekeepers, nannies, drivers and handymen.. These people were little more than house slaves, but because they had no opportunity for real jobs, they were forced to do menial low paid jobs like these.. Civil rights meant a step DOWN for the white middle class , and they did not take it well..

Women's rights, following so soon after civil rights probably really rocked their world.. They lost their house help, and now the "wimmenfolk" expected rights too..

I may not be the norm, but I think the decline in education is a direct result of the pressures on the modern family.. At first , women working was more of a "fun thing" for middle class married women, even though it was a necessity for unmarried women. As time passed, middle class married women HAD to work, since cost of living skyrocketed, and without Mom in the home and Dad coming ome at a reasonable time, kids started raising themselves..

Republicans really only want ONE thing.. They want to control everything.. They seem to have a collective memory of the "good old days" (that never really existed for many) and they want us back there.. They long for the "ordered" society, where everything is tidy, and everyone is in their comfy little box..

Liberalism is "messy and loud"..and change is part of it.. Republicans do not like change.....unless it's a change back to say...the 1930's..

The times that we, as liberals think of as the worst of times, are the very times that they long for...

[snippy]

32. I typically crush the dumb fucks who bring this up.

I start by asking these questions:

"Is that why the United States has never been able to compete economically in the last 50 years?"

"How fucking stupid would someone have to be to believe that?"

"Is that why the Unites States has not been a significant military power in the last 50 years?"

"How fucking stupid would someone have to be to believe that?"

"Is that why the standard of living in the United States has been among the worst in the world among developed nations in the last 50 years?"

"How fucking stupid would someone have to be to believe that?"

"Is that why no one in any other country has wanted to move to the United States in the last 50 years?"

"How fucking stupid would someone have to be to believe that?"

I then say that anyone who thinks that the United States has not prospered and made great gains, economically, socially, and politically in the last 50 years has got to be either the dumbest piece of shit that ever walked the earth or they simply hate the United States.

If the person goes on after this I just say "this is a great country, I'm sorry you hate it so much."

This has always been very effective, especially when other people are present.

[BigMacAttack]

33. Great post.

Accountability. Responsibility.

We can measure a student's performance and based on that we can measure a teacher's performance. And we can pay the teacher accordingly. We do not have to be hostage to the teacher's union. The tail does not wag the dog.

Republicans want competition to improve schools. But they also want to break the teacher's union. Unless we apply such simple common sense reforms to education they will succede.

Education will be privatized our public schools will not pass on our common values. The teachers union will be gone and the Democratic party will be weaker. Unless we enforce accountability and responsibility.

BMA

[Silverhair]

34. What have you done for me lately, Baby?

Know that song. To win we need to tell people what we will do for them in the future. Talking about our sucesses in the past won't get many votes. We also need to examine our issues and see which ones are popular, and which ones the public doesn't want.

What's wrong with tort reform to stop the lawsuit insanity? The schools that I substitue teach in don't have playground equipment anymore. They are afraid of getting sued if a kid has an accident.

38 states have DOMA legislation, and even Clinton signed a Federal DOMA. I'm sorry, but gay marriage is a losing issue, at this time. Look for Rove to use this one against us. I expect the Federal Marriage Amendment to come up for a vote early next year, thereby putting Democratic congressmen, senators, and state legislators on the spot. I am NOT saying that it should be a loser, only that it is a loser.

[onebigbadwulf]

36. Every time we fix

EVERY TIME WE FIX SOMETHING, the liberals get voted out and the repubs screw it up again. If we had 12 years straight like the repukes did we could actually make America a decent place.

[LeahMira]

41. Republicans are afraid...

If we had 12 years straight like the repukes did we could actually make America a decent place.

True, and that needs to be pointed out. Roosevelt's New Deal pulled America OUT of the depression.

Republicans are afraid of losing what they have now, whether it's guns, money, personal property, religious expression, or personal autonomy.

Democrats need to point out the consequences of Republican policies like "trickle down economics" (just how long is it going to take for anything to trickle down if twelve years is not enough?) and contrast those consequences to the consequences of the Clinton administration when there was prosperity for the middle class.

People will try to say that 9/11 changed everything, but Pearl Harbor could as easily have changed everything but for the policies in place that provided a safety cushion for the average American. By feeding the coffers of the wealthiest we are putting the economic prosperity of the majority in the hands of those who have never been generous about sharing it. Haven't we seen enough of our good jobs go overseas? If we take care of the middle and lower classes we are guaranteeing that the country will continue to be strong and free into the future... for everyone, not just a few.

[rasputin1952]

37. You have to go a lot further back than 50 years...

to see what Progressives have done for this country.

It was a group of Progressives, (radical progressives at that), that gave us this country. Those that signed the Declaration of Independence, are the most revered Progressives the nation has ever had. Jefferson made way for the expansion of the country, and enabled the education system to rise to heights no nation had seen in a thousand years.

Lincoln....now there was a Progressive. If he had not been asassinated, the 'Reconstruction' would have been radically different.

TR, a Republican, was wholly a Progressive at heart and in deed.

Wilson tried to bring about international peace.

FDR is in a class all by himself.

Truman, with his desegregation of the Armed Forces and schools.

Eisenhower, with his views of peace, and the ability to use force if necessary, to carry out Truman's work on desegregation.

JFK laying the ground work for Civil Rights.

LBJ for The Great Society, and finishing out JFK's forward looking Civil Rights actions.

We have seen the past, and much of it is good. Of course, there is alot of work to do in the future, and I have just touched the surface of some of the things Progressives have accomplished. Let's not forget, women weren't even allowed to VOTE until 1920! If that wasn't Progressive, I don't know what was, (and they should never have been denied the vote in the first place!).

We have a legacy that is unmatched in the history of the world. Progressives have moved this country forward and created the greatness that is seen the world over, and envied by those that are being forced into situations we would never allow at this point in our history.

Conservatives,......I can't possibly begin to count the failures in their ideology, nor do I want to. They are apparent to anyone that will open their eyes. I do not suffer fools lightly.

:kick: :bounce:

[BeFree]

38. Simple, use Clinton's message

Building a bridge to the 21st century.

It worked. Let's take it out of the dustbin, dust if off, put a few new twists to it and plow ahead. Don't stop thinking about tommorrow.

There are a coupla candidates working on that bridge. When it's time (getting close) we will need to unite together to return to the construction of that bridge. Once we are back on track and more supports are set .... we make sure the super (our prez) sticks to the plan.

As far as what the CONS say about us...who cares? If sheeple can't see the lies, then who the hell are we to think we can convince them of the truth?

United. That is our strength. Unity and singleness of purpose. Our purpose? It is what it has always been ... The furtherance of each and every individual's rights.

[BeachBuckeye]

42. This statement shoots down your argument:

"I know we can say we brought about civil rights, womans rights, child labor laws, workers rights, minumum wage. But the Right makes it sound like those are the things that have caused our decay."

They can SAY that all they want but they are absolutely wrong and its our job to point out how wrong they are. Without the things mentioned the working class would have been slaves a long time ago. What kind of benefits would workers have without workers rights legislation and collective bargaining? We must force them to contrast their record against ours and they will lose every time.

[rman]

43. oh yes, privitization and deregulation brought nothing but goodness

then again, privitization and deregulation aren't exactly liberal things.