New CNN poll: 67% think terror war going well, 59% support Iraq war.

[Silverhair]

Here is the link: http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2003-12-09-iraq-poll.htm

No comment needed

[Frodo]

1. No comment needed?

It means things have to get WORSE before an anti-war candidate will gain any traction.

[Silverhair]

2. OK, I should have said:

I decline to comment at this time because I want people to respond to the poll and not to my thoughts about the poll. I will comment later.

[Frodo]

4. Oh, I see....

I was thinking that it wouldn't get read much if nobody responded to it...


Of course, this is a shameless bump. I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

[JaneQPublic]

34. Here's what some other polls say...

[Silverhair]

43. Duplicate Post. Regret the error. n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

8. I imagine your comments will be something like:

"Campaigning against the war is a losing proposition. Americans are scared. They feel vulnerable, and want defending. To win, we need to show we're serious about combatting terror, and that we can do it more effectively than the Republicans."

close?

Now, my thoughts.

Bush is not fighting a "war on terror." On the contary, his military policy incubates terrorism. The "homeland" is perhaps more vulnerable now than it was before September 11. (Where, for instance, is the national guard?) First responders are cut and underfunded. Al Quaeda's financiers in Saudi Arabia and its protectors in Pakistan have not been brought to heel. Iraq was not the enemy. Bin Laden, the anthrax mailer - where are they? 9/11 happened on Bush's watch. Where is the full accounting of his government's actions? Why the stonewalling? Civil liberties have been lost, and still, Americans are told that a future attack is not a question of if, but when.

I've said it before: "Are you safer now than you were four years ago?" Democrats need not concede the national security issue to Republicans. Democrats should own it, and hammer it.

[tom_paine]

15. Well said and truly said, Minstrel Boy!

And yes, the Democrats could hammer it, but perhaps why they aren't is one of 2 reasons (not that I am endorsing their actions or making excuses for them, just explaining)

1) With the sorry Soviet state of the Party-Loyal Right-Wing Sub-Media and the Corporate TV Pravda that dances to their tune, it may be the Dems fear the Orwellian rush of shrieking, "Crazy! Why that's just crazy! Nonsense! Why that's just nonsense! Bush is Churchill! Bush is honest and has integrity!"...and so forth.

"Can you shout louder than the White Clown, Montag."
--Professor Faber, "Farenheit 451"

With few tiny voices whispering against the din of Party-Loyal Right-Wing Sub-Media and the Corporate TV, what will the Imperial Subjects believe? Do you think they might believe shrieking repetitutious Pravda?

This might be one reason why the Dems are reluctant to engage this issue.

2) That they themselves believe the Pravda. Like the rest of us, they are trapped in a Lying Fantasy Bubble constructed by the enemies of Liberty and Democracy...the Busheviks. It would not be surprising at all if the candidates, who's lives are so hectic and frenzied, BELIEVED the "conventional wisodm", when that has been reduced to a laughable Free-Market-Soviet joke.

[Ardee]

48. Bravo Minstrel Boy

Well stated indeed.

As if things were not bad enough now Israeli advisors are training US troops to fight terrorist.Like they've done such a great job of placating Palestinian terrorists, or even stopping the attacks:

'Bonkers, Insane': Israel Trains US Assassination Squads in Iraq
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1209-03.htm

Published on Tuesday, December 9, 2003 by the Guardian/UK
Israel Trains US Assassination Squads in Iraq
by Julian Borger in Washington

Israeli advisers are helping train US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations in Iraq, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders, US intelligence and military sources said yesterday.



This is basically an assassination program...It is bonkers, insane. Here we are - we're already being compared to Sharon in the Arab world, and we've just confirmed it by bringing in the Israelis and setting up assassination teams.

Former senior US intelligence official
The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) has sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and according to two sources, Israeli military "consultants" have also visited Iraq.

US forces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centers of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops.

But the secret war in Iraq is about to get much tougher, in the hope of suppressing the Ba'athist-led insurgency ahead of next November's presidential elections.

US special forces teams are already behind the lines inside Syria attempting to kill foreign jihadists before they cross the border, and a group focused on the "neutralization" of guerrilla leaders is being set up, according to sources familiar with the operations.

----cut-----
apparently the "advisors are already having an effect, six dead children today!

[West Coast Democrat]

40. No, It Means This Is Another Skewed Gallup Poll

as usual, Gallup has been polling more Conservatives than Moderates and Liberals. And Gallup is probably the only poll that declared a majority of Americans approve of the new Medicare changes. Gallup is a joke.

[Mari333]

3. Yes, they dont see the dead bodies of our kids

lying in the sand with their guts blown out. They dont see the coffins, they dont see the thousands of soldiers in hospitals, they dont see the funerals, they dont see anything.
Armchair warriors who order pizza and watch Faux news.
The blood is on their hands.

[Kremer]

6. Another stat that doesn't add up w/ the facts.

Soldiers almost getting killed daily. Car bombings. The b-s story of the 54 killed when it was 8 civilians, the 60mins piece this past Sun showed U.S. hired fmr Saddam henchman as police chief, and on and on. And now the number who approve of Iraq and War on Terror go up? Sure. Just like we keep seeing more and more layoffs and read that jobless claims are up higher every wk and then govt comes out and says unemployment number dropped last month to 5.9. Makes no sense. Some say * is playing w/ unemployment numbers and most expect the rate will just continue to drop until the election as per his fake #'s. How nice.

[OneTwentyoNine]

16. Totally agree......

This GD bullshit on the economy has been ordered up by the WH and put all media on alert to play the game or face consequences.

Take a look see,the regular Iraq BS is slipping and now the BOOMING economy is get headlines. BULL FUCKING SHIT,here in Wichita there will be at least another 3-400 losing aviation jobs after the first of the year. Boeing is laying off more,but now they do it real sneaky. Just lay off a small group,then another small group. That way huge firings don't make the front page.

Yes,the economy is booming but no one but Walmart is hiring. God,people will believe ANYTHING that this Nazi controlled press will put out. Man....

David

[Nederland]

30. Have to disagree

At least with the military casualties part (the economic I agree with). The reason I think the military casualties haven't really hit home is because of the demographics now. This situation today is totally unlike Vietnam. During Vietnam war we saw many, many more casualties than we do today, but more importantly we had a draft and those casualties were happening to a broader spectrum of the population. Today, the military comes largely from lower class people that are already Democrats. An increase in casualties may make that group hate Bush even more, but it doesn't affect the poll numbers much.

[BonjourUSA]

5. It is not won yet !

When the terrorist attacks will come again on your soil the awakening will be very hard, certainly after the election because Bush is the best candidat for the terrorists and strategically they must do nothing for weakening him before.

If the new president is democrate, he will have to face an very difficult political situation.

[spooky3]

7. if there are terrorist attacks while Bush is in office

I am afraid that many voters will have sympathy for him (because the media will tell them it was not his fault) and greater fear, which will make them more reluctant to turn to someone perceived to be against war.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

11. You won't have to worry about a 2004 election if a major "terrorist...

...attack" takes place between now and the elections. Martial law will be declared, and elections will be postponed indefinitely.

If it worked in pre-WWII Germany, it'll work here, too.

[LeahMira]

12. Bonjour!

You say: Bush is the best candidat for the terrorists and strategically they must do nothing for weakening him before.

I would like to read more of your thoughts about this.

Are you in France?

[BonjourUSA]

21. His policy in ME is the best for increasing the arabic frustrations

which are the terrorism compost.

1) Even if all the intelligence agencies, all over the world, work with a better efficiency together since 9/11 (The US agencies included), the Bush's military response and his religious form of speech against the terrorism is a bullshit. But this bullshit is a godsend for the terrorism recruiting.

2) If he is reelected, he couldn't change his military policy in ME especially because the inheritance war in Arabia Saudia, which is already begun, will be a new danger for the US oil supply. And the too weak US military occupation of Irak transforms this country in islamic extremists base for action toward Arabia and obviously elsewhere in this aera. We couldn't do nothing for a long time yet ! These extremists will get an exellent propaganda tool for extend again their actions toward Europe and for expanding them toward Turkey.

3) Despite his new support to the peace in Palestine, Bush proved his incapability to change the situation. The "Map road" joke is the best illustration. And no stabilisation of the ME is possible without Israel/Palstine solution. A new good opportunity for the extremists if Bush is reelected.

We're on the soapy slope.

Yes I'm French and live in France.

[tom_paine]

18. Absolutely, Bonjour, the Busheviks aren't going away

And if you look at how Putin is putting the clamps on Russia, he has taken the Bushevik playbook wholesale and applied it to his fledgling Republic in much the same way the Busheviks are applying it to Amerika.

Read on...

I'm not sure the Global descent into Totalitarianism can even be stopped if a Democrat wins.

Do you think the Party-Loyal Right-Wing Sub-Media is going anywhere? Do you think the growing legions of Dittoheads, Freepers and Brownshirts (though I repeat myself) propagandized into obedience and Doublethink (if you've read Orwell's "1984) are going anywhere?

No, our peril at sliding into Totalitarianism doesn't end in 2004 with a Democratic victory, if such a thing is even possible given the corrupt nature of Imperial "Voting" Systems and the Imperial Media.

And yes, the actual terrorists may get through without the Busheviks sitting on their hands.

The the Busheviks REALLY get to put their vision into action...

[CWebster]

9. So what

If they voted to support slavery would you stop fighting it?

Other's ignorance or the Right's success in manipulating the truth, doesn't mean that we should give up and join them.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

10. You're going to get a comment whether you like it or not...

...polls like that are only indicative of the political demographics of their readers. For instance, FOX polls are much more indicative of their very conservative readership. CNN is attempting to compete head-to-head with FOX and has also become much more conservative along with their readership. USA Today also has a conservative readership.

Unscientific polls report unscientific results.

[Q]

13. Why would anyone trust the American media...

..to tell the truth about anything? Polls are used to manipulate the masses and invent a 'mandate' for our new banana republic.

- Remember...this is the same media that smears Democrats and props up Bush* on a daily basis. This is a media that wouldn't tell the truth about the 2000 election, 9-11 or Bush's* lies that drove this nation to war.

- The media can poll and get any results they desire of a population kept ignorant of the facts.

[cryofan]

14. Only 17% of American public elected Bush

The fact is that most Americans are ignoramuses. THe knowledgable sorts, the ones who actually vote, are far more likely to think it is a crock of crap. See you at the polls....

[OneTwentyoNine]

17. Going so well that CNN and others pulled their "embedded" reporters out...

Going well--of yeah,its going so well that most major news services got their people the HELL OUT when the safety of big bombing ended and the radom killing of OUR troops began.

Why...if its going so well why doesn't CNN send 5 or 10 reporters right back in the thick of things???????????


David

[karabekian]

19. maybe

most Americans support the war on Terror and in Iraq. If so, the hard anti-war stance will be a problem for the nominee in the general.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

52. Maybe LEADERS lead people to the truth while SELLOUTS

keep reading the polls.

[Mari333]

20. This isnt a war on terror

Its a pre emptive strike at a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, and the only thing it is doing is creating more terrorists, not less, by making the Islamic world hate the US even more.
The only war on Terror I can see that makes any sense is the war we need to wage against the real terrorists...GW Bush, his wealthy cronies, and the assholes in the WH who are greedy profitteers.
That means lets vote the bastard OUT before he destroys this country any further.

[goodhue]

22. propaganda breeds ignorance

no comment needed

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Flagwaving induces blindness.

Apparantly, the sight of the chicken delivering the turkey to the "selected" cannon fodder has had some effect.

However, looking at the complet poll there is an awful lot of ambiguity there. I think that a lot of the "positive" answers reflect the notion of "supporting the troops" rather than supporting the policy.

Of course, as a Marxist professor of mine said during Vietnam, "the war will stop when enough bodybags show up and the average citizen has to reach for his wallet to pay for them."

All too true. The average citizen would much rather ignore the news about the war(s) and focus on the sexual antics of celebrities or the dangers of toenail fungus than have to face the reality and horrors of war.

[AlinPA]

24. To usatoday:" If I were an impolite person, I'd tell you what

you can do with your polls."

[Terwilliger]

25. one comment: who keeps saying the American people AREN'T stupid?

:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. It wasn't H.L. Mencken

who said, "Nobody ever went broke betting against the stupidity of the American people."

[karabekian]

27. i was just saying

if support for the war continues or grows next year, well be in deep trouble.

[nn2004]

29. A couple of points higher and Dean may need to support the wars

I'm guessing 75% would get the flipflops flying.

[VermontDem2004]

31. Can't convince me to support a pro-war candidate

No matter how many polls you show me.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

32. Well, there haven't been any terrorist incidents in the U.S. since 9/11

so I guess you could say the WOT is going well as far as that goes.
I would cite this as evidence that Dean cannot beat Bush if people are most concerned about their own safety here.

[alcuno]

50. Remember. You don't roll out a new product until the fall.

Al Qaeda has been known for doing big strikes every few years. I cringe every time I hear people say that there hasn't been a terrorist strike in the US since 9/11. My guess is that they are a lot more patient than we are.

[bushisanidiot]

33. Where's The CNN poll? This is a USATODAY poll.

no one was for the war except the hardline repukes. And the rest of us outnumber them greatly.

President Deserter will get squashed in an electoral tidal wave next year. Count on it!

[Silverhair]

37. Actually it is a USA Today/CNN/Gallup poll. They combined. n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

35. That's just proof that some people are ignorant and stupid.

Did you see today on CNN that Jeannie Most lady was walking the streets of NY City asking people's opinions about Gore endorsing Dean. Most of them said it was unloyal toward Lieberman or something like that. And of course, you get this one idiot that says Gore and Dean are both no good and she asked him why would he say that since Gore received over 500,000 more votes than Bush. And his answer was there are a lot of stupid people in this country. He is right. But I wish Jeannie would have asked him who he voted for and you know that jackass voted for Bush.

[gpandas]

36. cnn poll

Further proof of the idiocy of 'the American peeople.

[Julien Sorel]

38. Assuming the economy continues to improve,

peoples' opinion of the war will also likely improve. That's just the way people think.

[evil_orange_cat]

39. over 50% believed Iraqi's did 9-11... 25% believed Saddam used WMD's...

in Gulf War 2... people are dopes

[Capn Sunshine]

41. 67% of whom , one has to wonder

that sample must be a hoot.

[gpandas]

42. 67% 0f the 'American people'

Never underestimate the ignorance of 'the American people'.

[jsw_81]

44. This reminds me of that Adlai Stevenson story

Governor Stevenson was on the campaign trail and had just given a terrific speech when someone yelled out, "Mr. Stevenson, you have the vote of every thinking person in America." Stevenson replied, "That's not enough, I need a majority."

[Silverhair]

45. OK, here are my thoughts:

This is kind of like thos ink-blot tests that tell you more about the person responding than about the item itself. I wanted to see the varity of responses by DUers to the poll itself, instead of having them responding to me.

Many DUers attacked the American people as being stupid. Others simply used the poll as a jumping off point to attack Bush. I consider both of those types of response to be emotional venting of frustration without dealing with the problem.

Others DUers attacked the poll itself as being by a biased organization, or claimed that polls were useless. To me that looks like denial.

Some seemed to hope the war gets worse.

A few admitted to the difficulty. Some tried to find solutions, and some appeared resigned to defeat.

A couple of posters tried to analyze the problem. And one person went looking for other polls and more detailed data. (One of the great things about DU is that somebody will always have more information to put into the stew.) I had a lot of work to do so I wasn't able to do any further research.

My thoughts: We have an uphill battle. We are going to have to explain to the American people why bringing democracy to the ME won't work, and at the same time we will have to put forth some positive active effective plans for dealing with terrorism. (If we will be nice then they will be nice - won't cut it.)We need real plans that work in a real world.

We have some advantages. Mainly we are ahead in our use of the internet. But I expect them to catch up rather quickly.

Silverhair

[RainDog]

47. interesting

I thought the best post was the one which posted different polls to give a broader perspective on possible opinions.

I think at this time I am becoming, more and more, one of those "real politiks" pessimists as far as the American people are concerned.

I think that Bush has led our nation to believe that attacking anyone is justified...and of course, we can always find a justification for an attack.

Saddam, yes, was a cruel and criminal leader with those who stood against his rule. Bush, ultimately, is appealing to America's desire to see themselves as the nation in the white hat, and that desire is so strong, and the fear of a terrorist attack is so great, that lots of people seem unwilling to consider the more realistic reasons for the invasion of Iraq...

which seems, mainly, to control the resources of that country, to open a market for Halliburton and the like so that the ruling elite can amass more money, both by extracting Iraq's resources and the tax dollars of the American people.

People need to be able to understand that Bush's desire to have perpetual war is not a positive thing for them as individuals or for us as a nation.

They need to understand that the rest of the world no longer sees us as "the policeman of the world" but rather, more like Godzilla after he was attacked...but, they DID NOT SEE US in this way UNTIL we insisted on invading Iraq.

They were with us on Afghanistan. We lost the faith of other democracies with Iraq.

How can someone make this known to Americans, when FOX can give them jingoistic soundbites? I really don't know.

We are so isolated now, and it's an isolation of our own (president's) making.

I think the one way to get through to the American people is through the issues of Halliburton's no bid gazillion dollar contracts, which have inflated Cheney's holdings like never before, vs the 87 billion which will come out of our paychecks.

Whose children are asked to fight the fight, but who benefits? Why has Bush cut vet benefits..and why did he do it right as we invaded?

Why has Bush taken the national guard out of this country when we know there are terror cells here?

Why hasn't Bush budgeted for security at our ports? -- in our airports? Why is Bush bankrupting this country by cutting taxes for the richest of the rich, while at the same time demanding the middle class and the poor pay for a war?

Someone needs to bring up the Marshall plan, and how Truman went out of his way to avoid any appearance of war profiteering, vs what is happening in Iraq now.

Someone needs to bring up the honest truth that when we were at the very strongest as a nation, in the fifties and early sixties, we had a far, far more equitable tax system, we had strong anti-trust legislation and govt oversight to avoid such things as Enron and the FCC monopolies, and we respected our allies, rather than bullying them.

[IndianaGreen]

46. A majority of Americans supported the Vietnam War until Tet, 1968

and even then, most Americans opposed those that were against the war. The American people are incapable of admitting wrongdoing, a trait they share with the Japanese, who are still in denial about their crimes during the Second World War.

[wuushew]

49. Bush remains stable at 1 death a day and declines for every helo down

My theory on shrub's popularity includes a weekly bodycount factor, consummer confidence factor and the degree to which Bush himself speaks on administration policy(notice he himself hasn't advocated anything in months).

Iraq is not a winning a issuse. People don't care about the ethics of the war or the fractured neo-con thinking behind it. They simply react to bodycounts. It is becoming abundantly clear that Bush is going to cut and run before 2005. Even if the overall level of violence in the country remains stable or increases the decreased level of U.S. troop deployment will maintain the weekly death rate at a Rovian acceptable level. Basic Vietnamization strategy.

[Silverhair]

51. Yes. He is trying to get their gov't up & running before June 04.

I don't give him any chance of doing that.