American jobs going overseas. Are we just going to sit back and watch?

[Cleita]

So I’m watching The News Hour with Jim Lehrer. The story is on high tech jobs going overseas, most recently IBM because the salaries are a third of what they are here.

You’re going to expect Americans to buy the products that are being made in other countries. How can they without jobs? So says a joe sixpack who has lost his job to out sourcing in India. They asked the Indians about that and the answer was that the Indians would be buying American products too. So what’s the answer? Do Americans have to move to India to get a job so they can buy the products produced? Why do I feel this new economy is going to self destruct?

Of course there were the usual laissez faire economists claiming that it’s the way of the future blah, blah, blah. I don’t renege the Indians their new found affluence, but we can’t just leave our workers out on a limb either.

So there has to be another answer. How do we stop this flow of jobs going overseas without being shouted down as anti-business? My thoughts are that we need to form new companies to compete with the old ones. The big difference would be that the new companies would be cooperatives or employee owned and operated instead of corporations in the normal sense that we are accustomed to.

I also, believe that companies who want to do business with us, like sell their products here in the US are going to have to be legally compelled to maintain two-thirds of their operations here in this country, meaning production, services and sales. They are also going to have to be incorporated here in one of our states not in Bermuda or other tax havens overseas. I think a high import tariff needs to be slapped on goods made by companies overseas, even if they are formerly American companies who have abandoned any semblance other than name as being American.

Now these idea of mine are rather rough, so I know there is plenty to raise eyebrows about, but what I really want is for DU’ers to post their ideas, or any information they might have that could reverse this alarming trend. So discuss and educate me about how we can keep American jobs in America.

[FloridaPat]

1. Watch the dollar.

It keeps dropping. The more it drops, the more expensive imports are going to be. It will probably drop so much, the jobs will come back.

How to try to stop it? BOYCOTT. I think a list of the companies and what they make and how many jobs they sent overseas would be a great idea to make available to everyone. But it's going to hurt. Home Depot hired IBM to do their programming and IBM sent the jobs to India. Who do you boycott? EVERYONE.

I have to admit I have a financial interest in all this being a computer programmer who has been out of work 9 months this year and am now making half of what I made last year. I am really pissed!

[Old and In the Way]

2. No easy answers.

But we build walls, so do the rest of the world. I doubt we can make everything we consume and I doubt we would want to pay the costs of the value of those products that we buy today.

The cat appears to be out of the bag, don't know how we can put it back in. This started in the late 70s, GE was one of the 1st to do it. I remember thinking...it's a great strategy for an individual company, but not one for our macro health.

[economic justice]

3. THE Issue

This is a CRITICAL issue in key southern states and a few midwest states, especially. We MUST take a populist economic message to the nation and leave the pandering to the cultural left to the Green party. We MUST win in 2004 and this truly is a HUGE reason why.

[jpgray]

4. Yes--most of us, anyway (nt)

[cirej2000]

5. Well until I get laid-off...yes I'll sit back and watch

Trying to learn some of the hindu dialects during the holidays.

[jpgray]

8. Until we are affected, we will do nothing--divide and conquer

There's a sort of inertial selfishness that's part of every human being, and it goes into overdrive when something is perceived as SEP, or somebody else's problem.

[cirej2000]

11. I'll split the cost of the language tapes with ya.

If you want to learn Hindi too.

;)

[jpgray]

14. Very kind of you, but being in the arts--I'm used to starving

;-)

[FloridaPat]

21. English is the common language of India. Not need to learn

another language. I've tried getting jobs in India - no luck.

[cirej2000]

31. Not with just English of course!

:)

[shivaji]

6. and Clark said "its no big deal, we will do something else"

(paraphrasing but accurate). I made a good living in these good old United States for 35 years mostly in developing expert computer systems, and am terribly miffed that weasel Clark just brushed aside this huge problem casually.

Howard Dean and Gephardt are the ONLY TWO candidates I can trust to protect good jobs here. Weasel Clark is only for promoting himself. He is a repug one day, a dem the next. He was for the Iraq war, now he says it was a mistake.

I really don't understand why so many dems are willing to follow a repug-lite simply on the false notion that he is more electable? Does any one remember what president Truman said about republican-lites?
He said given a choice between a reublican and a republican-lite, they will vote the republican everytime!

[maddezmom]

15. and who is your candidate of choice?

[FloridaPat]

22. The big brass at the Democratic offices seem to think that

if they go to the left, no one will come with them. So they are doing everything to stay in the middle, including trying to oust candidates who lean to the left. They should be thrown out.

Another opinion is that the Democrats are almost as bought as the repubs and if candidates who are for the people instead of big business get in, that will be the end of the Dems.

[juajen]

29. What Clark said was oversimplification

However, he is right. Yes, we do need more controls over corporations that outsource. But, progress often leaves many of us behind. For instance, I am an expert at Gregg Shorthand. Know anybody that needs that anymore? I am also an excellent typist with a very low error count. That also is not needed anymore. Mediocre typists are just fine with their computers and scanners. I am an excellent speller. Guess what? Your computer technology put me in the outmoded basket.

We all have to make adjustments in the name of progress.

However, that is not to say that I agree with the absolute desolation of our middle class, before plans were made to provide other opportunities to the people that this "progress" is affecting.

Additionally, because of this administration, new technology is not exactly springing up everywhere. We should be starting new businesses involved in new energy sources. Look at the need to clean our air, our water, even in some states our soil. There is work to be done, but nobody is being encouraged to start these new businesses, let alone train the unemployed in new technologies. After you have spent years training yourself in a difficult profession that you thought would see you through to retirement, it's pretty damn hard to adjust to no money coming in and the mortgage company knocking on the door.

I think for every employee they displace through outsourcing, they should be required to retrain in a field they can make a good living at, and that all their bills should be paid until that is accomplished. Certainly would make them think twice before laying off in huge numbers and sending our jobs to overseas markets.

After that, shouldn't labor itself be in the free market. If USA workers were the only ones with a certain commodity, they would all be coming to us. Besides being cheap, overseas products are very often inferior to what we used to produce. What in the hell happened to us demanding quality, instead of planned obsolecence? If it's cheap, we grab it. We don't demand excellence, so, its easy for a 14 year old in China to labor in horrible conditions producing Christmas decorations that are cheap. We buy these, instead of going to craft shows and art galleries and buying wonderful things that are handmade here in the US by very devoted craftsmen and artists.

We have brought a lot of this on ourselves. Funny thing is, Clark was right, no matter how mad it made me when he said it. It could take years to have any redress of this situation. In the meantime, try to find a marketable skill that will keep bread on the table. Invent if you can, form co-ops of talented people to begin businesses. If you can no longer afford to live on your own, try to find sympatico individuals or families in the same boat you're in. It's past time for us to stop griping and find solutions, no matter how hard it is.

A good start would be to form group therapy sessions with other people in your situation and while there, brainstorm ways to get past this, form partnerships and start again. After all, what choice do you have?

OK, I know this is long. Rant over.

[littlejoe]

7. As someone said the other day, (I forget who or where)

Bush has created four million jobs.........for China and India!

[BuelahWitch]

9. I saw this too

and had to laugh. How can the Indians buy these products making a tenth of what the original worker makes? Could you honestly pay for a new computer without a credit card if you made $10 an hour or less (the guy in the story was making $8.50 stocking shelves at KMart)? What are housing, food, utility, etc. costs over there anyway?

That's another thing: if the American worker is making $10 an hour or less, where will housing prices go? Who will be able to afford a high cost home or apartment?

Nope, we the American worker who have been supporting those companies making $100+ gym shoes won't be able to anymore. How low can they go?

On edit: had to clarify what was "$100+"

[dpibel]

18. Oooops!

We don't make computers in this country anyway, so we don't have to worry about whether Indians can afford 'em or not.

Come to think about it, we don't make jack diddly anymore.

Works out great. If we don't make it, we don't have to worry about anybody being able to afford it.

So. No worries!!

On a more serious note, I've been saying for years that there's an inevitable tipping point which isn't that far away: When a billion Indians and a billion Chinese get to the point where they're getting paid one eighth of what an American makes, they equal Americans in buying power.

At that point, the multinationals don't care about Americans any more. They may have to change their product lines a bit--start the transition with low-ticket items--but anybody who thinks that they'll care a whit about the good ol' USA any more should think hard about the dollar realities.

[BuelahWitch]

25. I dont think you understood what I meant..

No, we don't make computers anymore. Nor do we make Nike sneakers. But we sure as hell are one of the biggest CONSUMERS of them.

If you're netting $1100 a month (and that's generous), you're not going to spend $100 of that on sneakers now, are you?

Why do you hate America so much?

[dpibel]

27. Dang

I even thought about putting in a sarcasm disclaimer.

I think we're on the same side here.

Did you read the part about the purchasing power going overseas, too? I think we're saying about exactly the same thing.

Unless you're serious about the last line of your post. . .

[BuelahWitch]

36. Sorry, I didn't get the sarcasm

I apologize for what I said before. This is just a sore point with me as well as alot of others, I guess.

[juajen]

10. I think you hit the nail on the head

Employee-owned corporations sound good. Cuts out those very expensive CEO salaries, etc. Your ideas on stopping the bleeding are very good, too. Actually, some of the candidates have ideas on this and they are good. I just don't think the enormity of this problem has hit home with the country or the candidates. It's a vicious circle. Lower wages in this country encourage people to shop at wal-mart, therefore supporting the outsourcing of jobs. The only people that truly profit from this outsourcing are the CEO's and administrative personnel of big corporations, and, of course, stock owners. Of course, with no middle class left, who can buy stock. Answer: CEO's and such

Back to the middle ages: The nobility and the serfs. Guess what we are?

[JanMichael]

12. They can just go back to manufacturing...Oops.

We don't do that anymore either.

Let's see they can either go back to school for a non-tech degree or work at Walmart.

This is a seriously bad situation and until we as a country accept that "Free Trade", as practiced by America, only truly benefits the top 1-2% we're pretty much screwed.

Happily traipsing into Corporate Fuedalism.

[littlejoe]

13. Seiously, there isn't much that can be done with American jobs

being lost or shipped overseas by American branches of multinational companies. But for those companies that are 100 percent American, local and state governments can hit any company that ships jobs overseas by hitting them where it hurts most. That is recinding TIF money, creating tax penalties for adversely affecting the local economy, and the banning of loans with favorable interest rates.

Some have suggested that we give incentives for companies that keep jobs in America. I don't subscribe to bribing people for not robbing my house.

[FloridaPat]

23. Big tax increases over the last 10 years probably helped moved

jobs overseas. And with Bush in, the green light was given to companies to do whatever they wanted.

In case no one noticed - payroll taxes are up BIG in the last 10-15 years. The cap use to be around $40,000. It is now near $90,000. Corporations pay half the 18% (social security and medicade). Plus social security has gone up from 3.5 to 7%. Corporations have really been hit hard by payroll taxes.

[juajen]

32. If this were true,

Don't you think that all of those fatcat corporate CEO salaries would be affected. Sorry, you are simply wrong. This is GREED, GREED and more GREED. I had friends who owned a small business. They employed about 30 people. They were always complaining to me about the cost of their taxes, their workers comp insurance, the sick days their employees took, etc. They live in a very expensive house, drive expensive cars, go abroad about ten times a year whenever they want. Sorry, I have no sympathy for them. Their company has been good to them, they just want more. It's greed, pure and simple.

[Ilsa]

16. It wouldn't be so hard on the economy if it weren't so rapid, and if

the people being laid off weren't so close to retirement.

I know folks that are in their late fifties, having to look at entirely new careers because their jobs are consolidated and shipped overseas.

What the companies fail to realize is that by laying off middle class workers, they are causing their own customers to be unable to afford to buy their products.

[nn2004]

17. It will stop when we retake control in November

We will make it a crime to allow any US job to be replaced by a non-US worker. That will put a stop to this nonsense and punish any company that allows an outside worker to replace ANY US worker. All US jobs will be allowed to become union and that will put an end to it once and for all. November is fast approaching...

[cryofan]

19. What color is the sky in your world?

What evidence do you have that any of the leading Demo candidates would do such a thing?

[juajen]

33. Actually, only one candidate has vowed to stop WTO and NAFTA

and strengthen labor unions. Guess who? Dennis, my brave man. I also am supporting Wesley Clark.

[cirej2000]

20. I dunno there were alot of H1-B visa back in 1999

Those weren't for US workers. It's going to take alot more than that. And some of the Unions need to be cleaned up to. It's going to take work people. We can't just flip a switch. To think otherwise is going to promote failure.

[Deja Q]

28. The first part makes sense,

Imposing restrictions/legalities on corporations saying "fuck you" to American workers, exploiting foreign resources in order to give themselves a fatter profit.

But if insurance companies, doctors, lawyers, et al can raise their rates every time there's a disaster - rather than being ethical and swallowing the loss themselves - these restrictions will never occur.

The union part will never fly though.

But nothing will happen until the people realize what's going on and organize. I fear that will never happen.

[SahaleArm]

24. So does anybody have an answer to the question?

How do you stem the outflow of jobs? This isn't an H1-B issue, these jobs are moving overseas because of labor costs. A global minimum wage won't help with high-tech jobs.

[Deja Q]

26. Let it self-destruct - Bush and corporate CEOs obviously know this!

Our country's a farce anyway. Bush doesn't care about spending, he knows the end is near. So do the big corporate masters who'll also protect him.

When the economy crumbles, the rich can afford the necessities.

We won't.

I don't know what to do. Boycotting won't work, and half the DUers are already terrified that boycotting will cost more US workers their jobs. (uh, DUH, that's happening big-time already!!!)

We can chant "Give the foreign workers the same pay you'd give Americans", but that won't work.

Let's face it, we'll be spun as anti-business. I don't fucking care anymore. Let the sheeple learn the hard way, and even then they'll just accept it as life. Bill O'Reilly tells them that our country gives favors to the rich and while that's not right, "that's how it is". It is wrong but if they're going to acknowledge that's how it is, then you know they're in on it. It's just getting harder to care, anymore. :-(

When I lose my job (estimated 3 years unless they try pushing outsourcing or overloading me with so much work that I can't keep up and use that to boot me out, and they are starting that already...), I'm probably going to kill myself. I know I can't get a job in retail or anywhere else. They have 'help wanted' signs but I always seem to fail their credit check or personality profile tests, without looking at my current job history. Obviously they don't want me around and I refuse to live homeless or in utter poverty. I've got nobody else anyway. What's to retrain for? Corporate america doesn't even want me to live, so fuck 'em. I'm outta here. (that's how I feel. I have no clue what will happen though.)

[ACK]

30. To Answer your question ... we wil just sit and watch...

The average American will bitch and complain but be too focused on making to that next paycheck to care.

The politicos among us are not concerned enough about real issues. Instead, we love the game so we will continue to bitch and whine and stab each other in the back with freeper press releases on how bad the other candidates are.

Meanwhile, the jobs keep slipping away.

Sit back and watch? That is what we do best.

Don't worry some of us will get up and protest but they will be rounded up in a circle and arrested like in DC or beaten within an inch of their lives like in Miama Fl.

Most of all we will kept in free speech zones away from the President or the Press or anyone else because very few people care. We just like to sit back and watch.

What is the solution? Part of it but not all would be:

We do promote free trade with governments that play fair. It terms of both labor and tariffs. If the country does not play fair then get all Repuke on them and give them the big middle finger.

Screw them. If they will not play fair why should they get the benefit of free trade with us? We are the great consumer whores of the world. We will buy anything and the world knows it. No wonder they want free trade with the U.S.ofA. We have to protect our own. If the other countries still have tariffs and ignore worker's rights and the environment, then to hell with them. It is not worth it.

Also, it would help to stop giving tax breaks to companies doing business overseas. That is right your government gives companies a tax incentive to ship jobs overseas. Wouldn't it help to give companies a break for keeping jobs here instead? Yeah it would.

[juajen]

34. Well, I heard you say it, but I haven't seen that anywhere in print

Please provide a source for your statement "That's right. Our government pays incentives for business to ship jobs overseas." (or something like that)

If this is true, it would be a great campaign point. Tell me where you got this info, please?

[ACK]

40. Here is a link for the overseas tax breaks I mentioned

From the office of John Edwards no less:

http://edwards.senate.gov/press/2003/0924-pr.html

[dusty64]

35. Just got up so

I can't add much to this debate yet, but I'll kick it cause its interesting and constructive. :kick:

[camero]

37. Multinational Duty or Tax

If companies make thier product here and sell here or over there and sell there, fine. But if they make thier product over there and ship here, a duty should be charged to it. Negate the advantage in labor costs.

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. I've felt like that too

slapping tarrifs on turn-coat companies.

I think we should raid their tax shelters too.

[blindpig]

39. free trade is a scam

and only benefits corporations and suckfish. Funny how when it was only mfg jobs going overseas you got all this happy talk about the US becoming a tech driven economy.The working class would just have to suck it up. Who's crying now? Only one person running is fully addressing this issue but I won't mention his name 'cause he can't win, looks funny and is too far left.
This is what happens when we let our enemy define us.

[Le Taz Hot]

41. I have a different proposal

Rescind all tax breaks for companies outsourcing American jobs. And we can go further -- tax the hell out of them. This won't affect most small businesses as most small businesses keep their jobs here and hire within their own communities if possible. It WILL affect IBM, Microsoft, Citibank and all the other corporate conglomerates with record profits and record salaries for their CEO's while paying their out-of-country employees pennies on the dollar. Despicable practices of the early industrial age that DEMOCRATS and UNIONS helped to reverse, which resulted in a larger middle class which resulted in a more prosperous America.

[Cleita]

44. Keep those ideas coming.

:kick:

[Kanary]

42. Yes, I'll sit and watch

This is where the rubber hits the road, in the words of that old outworn phrase.

The safety net is breaking apart, and there will be many deaths from that. The signal has gone out
over that, but...... no interest by those not affected. Just a shrug and "so what". Even among the
"progressives"..... Posts here about those on the bottom being "phased out" meet with no response.
So, it stands to reason that others not affected by jobs disappearing aren't going to say much.

It's quite simple. If you want others to care about you and your survival, you have to care about *them*
and *their* survival. Shrug off others, and they'll shrug off you. At this point I figure that until a lot
of folks are out of jobs and needing those services that are now going away, they're not going to care about it.
So, this may be the best thing to happen. Maybe there will be more people waking up to reality.

When you're down here with me, maybe you'll be more interested in talking. Maybe you'll even listen.

As they say, see ya on the flipside....

Kanary

[Yupster]

43. Give Ross Perot a pat on the back

While I watched Al Gore rip him to shreds on the Larry King debate, I thought he was a nutcase.

But, I want to apologize to Ross.

I hear the giant sucking sound now Ross. You were right.