Do you believe the 2000 Election was Stolen?

[Q]

- In spite of all the evidence to the contrary...many Americans still believe that the 2000 election was simply a 'close race' decided by the Supreme Court.

- After watching the documentary 'Unprecedented' for the third time...it's obvious that the election was indeed stolen and then covered up with the help of the American media.

- The evidence is there for all to see. BushCo cheated and committed election fraud and got away with it.

[leftofthedial]

1. worse than stolen

it was a coup.

[DUreader]

7. There was a subtle note of military consequences

[chookie]

84. Not to mention mobs and thugs

Don't leave the flying monkeys out.

Remember the "Bourgeoise Riot"? Remember the busloads of angry Cubans? Remember the pro-Bush people who showed up at vote count protests in Tallahassee with weapons "just in case" ?

Mob violence was just below the surface, and yes, the Bushistas were stirring the shit up, hoping to physically intimidate Americans, as well as force the Dems to back down in order to avoid civil unrest.

It's going to happen again in 2004. What are we planning to do about it?

[billbuckhead]

2. I think for all intents and purposes it's been proven.

Florida law says all "overvotes" must count and Gore had thousands more than Bush.

[Q]

5. How many Americans know what over 600 illegal absentee ballots...

...were added to Bush's total?

- How many Americans know that thousands of voters were falsely accused of being felons and kept from voting? How many know that some of these voters were said to have committed felonies in 2007?

- Watch Unprecedented and you'll understand how they did it.

[giantrobot_2000]

8. ...

And the case of the "felons" wasn't small potatoes. 90,000 people were disenfranchised. In fact, "disenfranchisement" doesn't do what happened justice. That was Jim Crow.

[On the Road]

70. "600 Illegal Absentee Ballots"

Well, I for one didn't know the number and I've tried to follow the Florida recount closely. Are those military ballots mailed without postmarks? Or just those that have been shown to have been mailed too late? Or the same person voting at the polling place and by absentee (I have heard of one such example)?

[RandomKoolzip]

3. Does the Pope shit in the woods?!

Of course it was. 97% of us wouldn't BE here if there was any doubt.

Next subject!

"Palast, you magnificent bastard, I READ YOUR BOOK!"

[stevebreeze]

104. RandomKool are you showing your age by quoting Patton?

I know I am revealing mine by knowing it.
:kick:

[giantrobot_2000]

4. Obviously

Obviously, it was stolen. Anyone who read newspapers anywhere in the world outside US knew it was stolen. Anyone who's been to http://www.gregpalast.com and read his 2000 Election section knew it was stolen. Anyone who watched the BBC Nightline reports knew it was stolen.

Bottom line, anyone who paid attention knew it was stolen.

[Q]

9. If it's so 'obvious'...then why do so many Americans still believe...

...it was simply a 'close race'? The answer is the American media didn't inform them. The same media that continues to protect BushCo to this very day.

[BeyondGeography]

17. It was stolen, and it's the basic force that is shaping this campaign

You raise a very important point, Q. The election was stolen but this country is politically apathetic. There's a huge gap between the passions of the Democratic base and "mainstream (or white) America," which sees politics in show-biz terms and spends little time thinking about ideological matters.

The rage of the 2000 election is in large part what has propelled the candidacy of Howard Dean. I don't support him (did once) but the real genius of his campaign is that his muscular approach to confronting Bush, and his so-called Bush-Lite opponents, responds on a very deep level to the shame that many Democrats felt at basically being out-muscled in Florida. I mean, our guys were making statements on television and the Republicans were physically storming recount centers.

This wimp factor has been in the air for many years (Ann Coulter calls us wimps, too), but we could always take refuge in our supposed intellectual superiority. If our leaders weren't smart enough to protect an election we actually won, then what good are they? The Washington politicians that Dean has so profitability bashed failed to understand the depth of this rage, and they are paying for this with their own candidacies.

The fact that so many Americans view the 2000 election differently from us, and that they find Bush, who took an electoral loss and governed as an extremist, to be personally appealing, should give us pause. Dean, should he be the nominee, will have a very hard time making the transition from the politics of the personal to a discussion of ideas. It's dangerous for this party to be defined by Bush hatred, because the market is ultimately not as big as we'd like it to be.

This election is about something much bigger than *; our place in the world, the decline of the middle class, the financial future of this country, the role of money in politics, the quality of our public schools,etc. But the media will focus on the show-biz side, and the perceived personal animosity between our candidate (if it's Dean) and Bush is a natural distraction. This will result in typically brain-dead coverage, more mindless partisanship and, most likely, our defeat.

[drdigi420]

90. because most americans

are dumb as owl shit

how else do you explaing the popularity of brittany spears, country music, fear factor, survivor, joe millionaire, etc etc etc?

ppl like what the tv tells them to like

if most people werent so damned stupid...

-the 2000 election wouldnt have been close enough for bush to steal

-no one would have believed the WMD crap

-FOX 'NEWS' would be out of business

-Rush Limbaugh would have 3 listeners, and 2 of those would be people that just happened to be in the room with the 1

-nascar would be seen as a bunch of hicks driving in a circle

-more people would know who chick corea is than know who justin timberlake is

-reagan would never have become governor, much less president

-our vehicles would be designed to avoid crashes rather than survive them

-speed limits would be doubled on most roads

the list goes on and on

stupidity is rampant in this country and all over the world

[Cleita]

6. Yes, it was and worse than that

he was aided by our own party.

[giantrobot_2000]

10. ...

Completely spineless. I was disgusted with the way the Democrats handled the 2000 Selection.

[Q]

14. In the end result...they were indeed aided by the Democratic party...

- I remember watching Lieberman on the news asking Gore to concede. I remember the Congressional Black caucus pleading with ANY Democrat to stand with them and defend civil rights.

- A bloodless coup took place and we were left with a 'president' who has destroyed everything we hold dear.

[w13rd0]

31. I keep running it thru in my head...

...if just ONE SENATOR, JUST ONE, had stood with the Congressional Black Caucus and disputed the Florida slate of electors...JUST ONE! I don't know, it's sad to think about it. I hope everyone understands the consequences of letting them get away with that now. We can't let them do it this time. They'll threaten civil unrest I assure you. It can't matter, it shouldn't matter. They'd be locked away under provisions of the Patriot Act anyway. We can NOT let them get away with another coup.

[cally]

73. I think Kerry came closer than any other Senator

to standing up for the re-count. It wasn't enough but he more than others. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I do remember not being as angry at him as I was at others.

[LeahMira]

76. Focus on present and future...

A bloodless coup took place and we were left with a 'president' who has destroyed everything we hold dear.

The general public isn't all that convinced that all we hold dear has been destroyed. I think this is the message that needs to be communicated to them in terms that they can understand as it impacts day to day living.

Yes, a coup took place. Now, it's time to do something about it... not just bemoan the fact that it happened.

[Beam Me Up]

11. Sure looks that way to me

And, yes, I've seen "Unprecidented." Another great documentary that every American should see, along with Moveon's "Uncovered."

[Military Brat]

12. It was stolen. Has bush ever earned a damned thing in his life?

:grr:

[giantrobot_2000]

13. Hmm

A one-way ticket to hell?

[burrowowl]

15. Stolen!?

It was a frigging coup d'etat!

[Booberdawg]

16. Yes it was stolen

Buy katherine harris, jeb bush, USSC, and the vote scrubbing.

[NavajoRug]

18. I've got two problems with the notion of the "Stolen Election" . . .

1. In all of the post-election coverage, I don't think there was a single scenario in which Gore would have ended up with more votes based on the recounts.

2. The real culprit in the loss of Florida was Gore's legal team. In fact, I said at the time that the first thing Gore should have done after conceding was to sue David Boies for providing incompetent legal counsel. The way they called for the recounts pretty much guaranteed that the U.S. Supreme Court would be involved, and would overrule the Florida Supreme Court.

3. The real culprit in the loss of the entire 2000 presidential election was Al Gore himself. I predicted that Gore would win a close race, and I even had Florida going to Bush -- I simply didn't imagine in my wildest dreams that Tennessee would have ended up in the GOP column on election night.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Spoken like a true...

...Republican. Only a true Republican would believe any of your three points. Of course, I'm not accusing you of being a Republican, only that your post reads like something they would write.

1. What scenarios are you discussing? There were several that had Gore winning by a pretty wide margin.

2. The U. S. Supreme Court's conservatives should NEVER have gotten involved in a case involving States Rights. That was 180 degrees opposite their STATED political and judicial philosophies. The only reason they took the case was to prevent the Democrats from holding the White House.

3. Ah, yes...the old "blame it on Al Gore" ploy. I guess the fact that the mainstream media was embellishing and flat-out inventing stories about Gore has escaped you. I bet you didn't hear about the same tactics used in Florida were also used in Tennessee, Missouri, Mississippi, Alabama and other states in the Deep South. I live in Alabama and knew that it was taking place.

[NavajoRug]

106. Clarifications . . .

1. I stand corrected. The only scenarios in which Gore really had a chance of winning involved a statewide recount -- which the Gore team never asked for (see below).

2. The actions of Gore's legal team GUARANTEED that the U.S. Supreme Court would get involved in the case, and once the Supreme Court was involved it had no choice but to overturn the Florida Supreme Court's decision. The Gore team petitioned for manual recounts in only four of Florida's counties, and by allowing these recounts to take place using each election board's own standards, the Florida Supreme Court left itself open to a challenge in the U.S. Supreme Court on the grounds that closely scrutinizing ballots in four counties while not doing so in the rest of the state was a clear case of voter disenfranchisement. Some of us knew at the time that the only way Gore was going to win that election was if he petitioned for a statewide recount using a uniform standard for examining ballots -- David Boies' failure to do this was a colossal blunder, and many of us knew it at the time.

The "states' rights" argument would be a compelling one in this case, but I'm not sure we want to make that argument in situations like this. You can be damned sure that I would want the U.S. Supreme Court to get involved in a case in which a Republican election board closely scrutinized ballots in primarily African-American districts, and tossed out any ballot that had even a tiny shred of a chad hanging off it. We can't have this both ways.

It's also disingenuous to accuse the "conservatives" on the Supreme Court of imposing their will on the electorate. The decision that nullified the Florida Supreme Court's decision to allow the recount in four counties was 7-2. It's also worth noting that in 2002 the U.S. Supreme Court refused to get involved in a "states' rights" case involving the Senate election in New Jersey, when Robert Torricelli removed himself from the race and the Democratic Party wanted to have Frank Lautenberg put on the ballot after the state deadline for placing names on the ballot. This would have been an ideal time for conservatives on the Supreme Court to overturn the New Jersey Supreme Court's decision, but they did not do so -- on the grounds that there was nobody in New Jersey who could show that they had been "injured" in any way related to Federal civil rights laws.

3. I know all about the lies and deceit, but that's been part of politics for as long as I've been alive (not that this is necessarily a good thing, mind you). There is no excuse for a candidate in a close race like that to lose his home state. Hell, even in the disastrous years from 1980-1988, Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis won their home states -- and in the case of Mondale, it was the only state he won!

[maggrwaggr]

29. the 90,000 people who weren't allowed to vote doesn't bother you?

cause it sure bothers me

[maggrwaggr]

30. Bush said as much on the Letterman show

One of the creepiest things I've ever seen, and I've posted it here before, is after the "selection" I was watching a rerun of the Letterman show and Shrub was on. This was BEFORE THE ELECTION when the show was taped mind you. Letterman made a joke about Jeb helping him out in Florida, and Shrub got all into it and said "yeah, he's supposed to be taking care of that for me" and he sorta laughed and looked at the camera and pointed at it and said something like "he better deliver or there's gonna be some angry people around the thanksgiving table this thanksgiving" and he kind of laughed again.

But the jist of what he was saying, and the way he was saying it -- he got kind of agitated -- was just creepy as shit.

Can ANYONE figure out a way to get this video? We need to get it online somehow/somewhere. There must be a way.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

43. And what about that creepy election night scene from the Bush's hotel

room where he said something similar? I thought at the time that Bush Sr. had a guilty look on his face, could it be possible he didn't care for what they pulled? I don't know, maybe I imagined that part, because it's not like he didn't pull dirty politics himself like crazy.

But the whole thing was very creepy and especially the comments of *. Will never forget that scene.

[linazelle]

101. When Gore called to say he was not conceding, Bush told him

something like "my little brother" told me he was taking care of this. How much more obvious can it get?

[rman]

39. Repubs admitted to making a 'mistake' wrt Fl. voter purging

see

Grand Theft America
http://www.bushflash.com/gta.html

Greg Palast - Theft of Presidency
http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=1&subject_name=Theft%20of%20Presidency

and last but not least
Black Box Voting
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[NavajoRug]

107. How many documented cases of voter disenfranchisement . . .

. . . have we seen from the 2000 election?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

38. Indeed it was stolen!

Unlike the matter of disenfranchisement which was "overlooked" even in the Senate when no one stood with the black Caucus, or the matter of which ballots were counted or not; the reality of outright fraud as represented by the Florida certification has not even seen the light of day.

Why is it that in 62 counties of 67 in the state of florida the counties certify totals that are DIFFERENT than the totals as certified by the state DOE?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

49. jeb and harris payed a Texas data firm $4 million to purge voter rolls in

1999....why???? when in ALL privious years a local firm was paid $5,700 for the same job every year.....that says it ALL!!!!!

[On the Road]

74. Najaho Rug,

. In all of the post-election coverage, I don't think there was a single scenario in which Gore would have ended up with more votes based on the recounts.

You seem to have read the headlines rather than paragraph 18. The Florida Supreme Court ordered all overvotes and undervotes recounted. The consortium recount showed that when all the votes are counted, Gore had more votes regardless of what position you take on the chads.

Of course, the headlines only dealt with undervotes in the four counties that Gore requested. That is NOT what was happening when the US Supreme Court ordered the recount stopped. Amazing, isn't it?

consortiumnews.com

Foreground: Gore's Victory

By Robert Parry
November 12, 2001

So Al Gore was the choice of Florida’s voters -- whether one counts hanging chads or dimpled chads. That was the core finding of the eight news organizations that conducted a review of disputed Florida ballots. By any chad measure, Gore won.

Gore won even if one doesn’t count the 15,000-25,000 votes that USA Today estimated Gore lost because of illegally designed “butterfly ballots,” or the hundreds of predominantly African-American voters who were falsely identified by the state as felons and turned away from the polls. (snip)

http://www.bushwatch.com/gorebush.htm

[beanball]

80. Blaming the victim

Gore was the victim.You must be a repug in dem dress.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. You bet it was. Anyone who says otherwise is either...

...a freeper, or an individual that refuses to see the facts for what they are.

[aeon flux]

20. Who was the numbnuts lawyer

that represented Al Gore in the Florida election case? What's his name? This guy sounded utterly ineffective in the courtroom. Like hiring Bozo the Clown for your lawyer.

[giantrobot_2000]

23. David Bois

What are you talking about? David Bois was a great lawyer. He made excellent arguments in front of the SCOTUS. The wingers on the SCOTUS screwed him (and the country) in the end. Don't blame it on Bois.

I admit, he should have brought up the 90,000 "purged" voters.

[populistmom]

22. Obviously

Greg Palast quieted in doubts I had regarding that fact almost a year ago.

[i_am_not_john_galt]

24. We'll never know...

...because Gore did not ask for a simple, statewide recount of all the votes. Gore lost all credibility, and any right to bitch about the results, when he asked for selective recounts designed to favor him.

[soup]

44. wrong.

Bush Rejects Gore Offer of Statewide Hand Recount

NewsMax.com Wires
Wednesday, Nov. 15, 2000

George W. Bush tonight called for the Florida vote recounting to end and for the acceptance of the vote totals Friday, when overseas ballots are due.

He rejected Vice President Al Gore's two plans for settling the Florida vote recount. Earlier in the evening Gore promised:


If Republicans allowed manual recounts to continue in Democrat-dominated Broward, Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties, he would accept the final tally of those results added to the certified results from 64 other counties and overseas absentee ballots, due by midnight Friday.

Or, "I am also prepared, if Gov. Bush prefers, to include in this recount all the counties in the entire state of Florida,'' Gore said.
>snip<

love using this source for this particular debunk... :evilgrin:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/15/152106.shtml

[i_am_not_john_galt]

65. The offer for a full recount came too late

Of course Bush didn't accept Gore's proposal on Nov 15 - he had everything to lose and nothing to gain. But had Gore pressed for a full recount of all the votes from the beginning I don't think the American people would have settled for anything less. By starting out with a cherry-picking strategy, challenging overseas ballots, etc. it appeared to many (including me) that BOTH sides were trying to "steal" the election rather than abide by a full, fair, recount. This is a lesson I think we should take away - that we should never appear to be trying to game the system.

[Bandit]

67. You need to educate yourself to Florida law

Florida Law said very explicitly that Gore could only ask for recounts in specific counties and could not by state law ask for a state wide recount. I'm sure if he could have he would have.

[ma4t]

91. Educator, educate thyself...

Florida law did not say that Gore could only ask for recounts in specific counties in the sense you seem to imply. Gore could ask for a recount in each and every county he desired. To ask for a statewide recount he would simply have had to ask for a recount in each Florida county.

Assume for the sake of argument that Bush accepted Gore's proposal for a state-wide recount. What would be the legal mechanism to have such a thing come about? Wouldn't there have to be a recount in each county since each county had it own board of elections. The recounts that were held certainly seemed to be done by county-level officials.

The idea that Bush somehow "prevented" a state-wide recount by rejecting Gore's suggestion is, frankly, out of touch with reality. If Bush could prevent a recount, then why did recounts take place in the counties Gore wanted? (Hint: Because Bush had no way to prevent them, nor could he have prevented one in another 2 or 3 or 5 dozen counties.)

It's time to accept reality. If Gore really wanted a state-wide recount he could have had one. All he had to do was ask for one, right from the start, in each county. He didn't because he thought it to his advantage not to do so, just as Bush saw it to his advantage to have no recounts. However; unless Bush was using his secret QM-60 Mind Control Ray Machine (tm) on Gore it makes little sense to blame him for Gore's choice of tactics.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

69. i am not john,,,oh but bush made a texas law to count all "pregnant chads"

bush* loves texean pregnant chads!!!!

[On the Road]

72. IANJG,

Selective recounts are a common part of the election law and have been applied hundreds of times without this type of slur being made.

Did you realize that at the same time the Bush team was crying foul over the completely legal request for a partial recount, Bush was doing EXACTLY the same thing in New Mexico? He asked for a recount in one county, which did not change the result.

[aeon flux]

27. Yeah thats him

he didn't make any case at all. Just spoke in a whole lot of vague legalese all the time withouot ever making a clear point, at least not to the laypeople who were watching on tv. Boise is a lifeless technocrat with no ability to connect the case to the people to make the case for Gore. The court of public opinion is just as important as the legal court, especially for a case that was televised.

Not bringing up the purged voters was a fatal mistake. Bois should have put those poll workers and disenfranchised voters on the stand. There were thousands of them. Such a waste of valuable resources and squandered opportunity. He's a sad and spineless joke!

[FDRrocks]

25. Yes and 2004 will probably be the same...

And then when the people with clear minds say that Democracy is dead... the 'political pragmatists' will shout them down.

The tree of liberty needs to be refreshed with the blood of patriots, in my opinion.

[hellhathnofury]

26. Yes.

[Leilani]

28. Yes it was stolen

And Dems must be prepared this time around, because it can happen again.

Wes Clark has put out a plan for overseeing election, having legal team ready, etc, etc.

[Iverson]

32. convinced by Palast, Buglosi

Of course, there's also my own common sense about right wing power grabs and Gucci rioters who stop vote counting. However, in terms of evidence and argument, the writings of Greg Palast and Vincent Buglosi provide a deconstruction of that fraud.

[Q]

36. Palast and Buglosi both presented a great case...

...and one could only wish this type of journalism still existed in the 'mainstream' press.

- Watching the documentary set it in stone. The outright, in-your-face fraud couldn't have happened without the help of the right people in the right places. That was Bush's* first 'trifecta': Jeb 'the crow' Bush...Harris 'the fixer' and the 'supreme' court of the land williing to ignore the Constitution.

[corporatewhore]

33. No !!!!!!

what do ya think this is some kinda democracy with commie pinko things like elections.God smiled the day that the Supreme Court annoited His Oilyness George W. Bush Divne Ruler of the Holy American EmpireTM

[gator_in_Ontario]

34. Stolen!

pure and simply ripped off!

[cthrumatrix]

35. I would not have thought this before 2000....the neocon agenda

and the lack of any media (searching for truth) have shocked me over the last three years.

[Q]

37. But we've 'moved on'...haven't we?

- Here we are approaching the 2004 election with our eyes wide open and there's still nothing we could do about it if the Bushies steal it again.

- It's not as if we haven't been warned.

[Corgigal]

40. It was close

and since it was then it was easier for them to steal. This time we can't allow it to be that close and we know they will steal it again.
We can't be caught lying around this time and we have to do whatever it takes to make sure the votes get counted.

[Q]

42. It only 'looked' close...

...because behind the scenes...BushCo operatives were working to make sure there was no successful recount...purging voter rolls...adding illegal absentee ballots...and simply throwing out ballots they didn't want to count.

- It was never a 'close race'. And saying we were caught 'lying around' doesn't do justice to the fact that the other side was actively working to slant the election towards Bush*.

[linazelle]

102. And let's not forget more than 10,000 votes disappeared in BBV

machines from diebold that night. Votes disappeared from everywhere--scrubbed rolls, Diebold and when those weren't enough, the CONs sent in the troops to start a ruckus over the butterfly ballots and hanging chads. They effectively made the issue so confusing that people got lost and confused by it all and, with the press in Bush's pocket (or was it he in their pockets?), nobody attempted to clarify this mess.

[Lost4words]

41. Yes a fraud on every one of us for the world to see. n/t

[BiggJawn]

45. Yes I Do. And they'll do it again!

Jebbie's all fired up to "deliver" Florida to his bro again...
Ahh-Nuld is supposed to "deliver" Kali-forn-eyah to Chimpy.
The CEO of Diebold wants to "deliver" all of Ohio's electoral votes to the Chimp....

[William Seger]

46. Yes, and then adding insult to injury...

... the fucking scumbags kept insisting that the reason we couldn't have an honest recount is because Democrats cheat. This, despite having evidence of Repug "irregularities" turn up every few days. I wasn't much fond of Repug's before 2000, to say the least, but watching Repug after Repug trotted across the TV screen to parrot the exact same Baker-scripted bullshit, and not seeing a single Repug in the entire country show a shred of integrity about what was happening, left me with a hatred for those slimy shitheads that I can't even express in words.

[McHrozni]

47. Unprecedented ... Moore, am I right?

[Q]

51. No...Moore had nothing to do with...

...the making of 'Unprecedented'.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

48. ABSOLUTELY! without a doubt...it has been proven over and over again

Alan Dershowitz-Supreme Injustice
Buglosi- The Death of Democracy ......?
Jeffrey Toobin - To Close to Call
Greg palast - The Best Democracy Money Can Buy

Jeb paid $4 million of taxpayers money in 1999 to a texas data firm to purge florida voters rolls....when in all previous years florida had only paid $5,700 to a florida data firm for the same service....WHY???? if not for the SOLE of stealing an election!

[Beaker]

50. yes.

why?

[Nlighten1]

52. No doubt about it.

[grannylib]

53. The theft was planned and organized well in advance; no doubt about it

[Bridget Burke]

54. Yes.

I work with many (intelligent, well-educated) people from other countries. Most are planning to become citizens; many are already parents of citizens. They're too polite to bring up US politics, but if somebody else brings it up they'll give their opinions.

They all think the election was stolen. Most of them are appalled that an idiot like Bush got as many votes as he did. For most of them, English is not their first language--but they express themselves far better than he can. They also find it ridiculous that Clinton was persecuted for his private life.

I've been encouraging them to become voting citizens. However, some of them want to keep their escape routes open. The USA is no longer the kind of country it was when they first came over.

[Killarney]

55. Yes, but I didn't realize it was until

I read Mike Moore's book about a year ago. I was one of the uninformed who thought it was a close race and even though Gore won the popular vote, Bush won in Florida (though close) and that's how he won. I had no idea what really happened until I read Moore's book. Goes to show you what watching the regular news media will put in your head.

I'm ashamed. :(

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

63. You shouldn't be ashamed because

you went beyond the mainstream media BS "conventional wisdom" and searched out the truth for yourself. I wish I knew why people believe the mainstream media, because the media keeps reporting lies. They must want to believe lies. Didn't they ever hear about that "fool me once" thing?

[Q]

75. I agree that you shouldn't feel 'ashamed'...

- Americans shouldn't have to depend on 'alternative' media for the truth. That the media sold out is not your fault.

[evil_orange_cat]

56. Florida was obviously manipulated...

and set in the works well before the election... Gore won, but the pure fact that it was THAT CLOSE for Florida to matter the way it did lends credibility to the notion that the Democratic party was inept and did run a loser candidate.

[Q]

62. A 'loser' candidate who received more votes than Clinton?

- That's an odd conclusion.

- The Democratic party may or may not have been 'inept'...but that's besides the point. It's amazing that the kind of campaign Gore ran is even a topic of discussion in the context of an orchestrated effort to steal that election FROM him.

[LeahMira]

86. Both candidates received more votes than Clinton...

A 'loser' candidate who received more votes than Clinton?

When Clinton was running, there were three viable candidates in the race. I suspect Ross Perot took more votes away from Republicans, but they weren't whining about it like some folks whine about the Greens.

Now, what proceduresand safeguards are in place at the moment to prevent something likewhat happened in the 2000 election from happening again? Far as I can see, there aren't any.

This makes me mad.

I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that all the discussions about the Electoral College or the ballots used in some states or whether the Supreme Court acted correctly or incorrectly etc. disappeared after 9/11. Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about terrorism and would really like to hear people start talking about democracy, fairness, equality and justice.

[Skittles]

57. YES IT WAS F***ING STOLEN

there were many contributing factors but ultimately YES IT WAS STOLEN FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BY THE SUPREME COURT.

[tom_paine]

58. Stolen like John Gotti's income...

Stolen shamelessly and in plain sight...

:grr:

[GreenPartyVoter]

59. Of course, there is no other explanation

for Bu$h winning.

[Suziq]

60. Absolutely . . . .

So were the elections in 2002. Did I mention today how much I Hate These People . . .

:hippie:

[Catherine Vincent]

61. Yes, I do.

And I remind right wingers that on every message board I visit.

[bobbieinok]

64. the 3 points that convinced me

1) The supreme court verdict said that the ruling only applied this one time; it could never be used in any other case.!!!!!!!!!!!

This gives the whole crime away.

I thought that was one of the major results of court rulings: they're used to set precedents.

2) Scalia and Thomas should have withdrawn from the case. 2 of Scalia's sons were partners in firms that argued W's case: 1 in the firm arguing before the FL supreme court, 1 in the firm arguing before the US court. Thomas' wife was working for the W transition team.

3) The decision on 12-12 called for a complete recount, treating all ballots the same way. It went on to say that there was no time to do this because all state results had to be certified by 12-12.

This statement was false. At least 6 states (from what I remember reading) sent them in Jan 6.

AND THEN there was the gall of the Sat decision stopping the counting - Scalia said that further work would 'cast doubt on the legitimacy of W's presidency.'!!!!!!!!!!

ALL OF THIS WAS IN PLAIN SIGHT AND THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ElementaryPenguin]

66. Believe it? I fucking KNOW it that it was!!!

THERE ISN'T ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER - NADA!

[reprobate]

68. Of course it was. And it will happen again.

In a democracy it is the function of the media to act as the fourth branch of gov't, to be a voice for the people and a check on the other three branches, hence the term "fourth estate". The media no longer serve that function. They are now an arm of the gov't and as such nothing they report on can be trusted. I accuse each and every one of them of TREASON! They left their true vocation and became whores.

But that's neither here or there. The fact is that the republican neocons are preparing to do the same thing again. THEY HAVE TO. If they don't win this time, they have not completed their goals and never will, with a democrat in the white house. Besides which, I'm sure they are very much afraid of justice being finally done, after they are out of office.

And all that is also beside the point. The big question in my mind is: How will the people of this country, and the other countries of the world react to another stolen election? Will they finally rise up and demand a return to democracy? I find myself in the strange position of at least partly hoping that it will spark a revolution, but I'm afraid the people aren't yet ready for that. I fear it will take some years under the influence of the fascists before they will be angry enough. Meanwhile the rest of us must decide whether we will sit quietly or are we ready to start the revolution ourselves.

That's a question we will all answer for ourselves. I'm afraid the answer will be noisy and bloody.

[Bandit]

71. Please explain to me how Bush* had "legal Standing"

How could Bush* ask for a stay of execution on the Florida Supreme court ruling. Where and how did Bush* get "Standing"? "Standing" is a legal term to describe effected parties. The only one who could possibly have claimed "standing" was the voters themselves. How could Bush* or Gore either one have been harmed when votes had not yet been counted officially. Neither party had won or lost at the time Bush* asked for a stay. He had no "standing" and the Supreme court awarded him a stay anyway against all precepts of law. It was a coup delivered by the Supreme Court of the United States. The whole purpose of the Supreme court is to establish "Legal Precedent" When they were done with this case they said it could not be used as precedent. Never in the history of the United States has a Supreme court ruling not been for establishing precedent. They knew when they did this that it was wrong and basically admitted it by saying it could not be used as precedent. That is their whole purpose of being, to establish precedent. :crazy: So my answer to your question is a resounding yes. The election was stolen but not by Bush* it was stolen by the Supreme Court.

[cally]

77. Stolen with help from Jeb and rw cronies

Someone posted a poll awhile back showing the percentage of Americans who believe that Bush did not win. I can't find it now. :-( I remember how surprised I was at the number because so many believed it was stolen.

Many know the truth. The disenfranchisement of voters is the part that most angers me. The Dems should have stood up for the right to vote. Disgusting.

[KamaAina]

78. Oh, my goodness gracious, no

Whatever would make you say such a thing?

The sElection was bought and paid for, fair and square.

:evilgrin:

[Walt Starr]

79. Stolen

No doubt about it, it was stolen. Everything about the outcome of the 2000 coup was illegal. The felonious five belong in orange jumpsuits along with chimpy, his entire dcampaign staff, and the congresscritter staffers who staged a riot to effect the coup.

[Terwilliger]

81. of course not...I mean, Dem party officials don't think it was stolen

why should I? :shrug:

[chookie]

82. Stolen

There had been widespread actions, particularly among the African-American community, to register new voters, which were highly successful. To counter this, Jeb and Katherine had to come up with a way to negate their numbers -- and they did, quite systematically. Many young black Floridians showed up at the polls that day, to find out that they would not be allowed to vote because somehow their registrations did not go through. It was a chilling experience.

Then there was the manipulation of military votes. As soon as it became clear how many numbers were needed, the co-conspirators supplied them -- and they were able to get away with this falsification with all sorts of hypocritically pious bullshit about ensuring that our braves sons and daughters in harm's way get to vote. (Ha ha -- I bet Jeb's not going to work as hard *this* time to get "the military vote" counter.)

It was stolen in broad daylight, while the Bushistas went on tv and said how wonderful it was that there was yet another peaceful political transition in America. Yeah -- because the Dems didn't fight, as a whole, what was done to us! That was the beginning of the lies of the new administration -- that this was a normal transition. They've always had the power of the Big Lie on their side -- most Americans didn't catch on or weren't paying close enough attention to see that a coup had occured -- and they surrendered our government over to an illegitimate administration.

*IF* the Dems had fought -- one of the consequences could have been civil war. I believe the Bushistas would have encouraged it to happen, whereas the Dems did not want to risk it, and hoped they could fight back politically later.

"Close?" My ass.

So what are we going to do about it in 2004 -- because they ARE going to do it again. Time to start planning now, people! Otherwise, we can kiss democracy goodbye, or else have to shed blood to get it back again..

[citizen snips]

83. Yes.

It was very obvious that the election was stolen.

[Terwilliger]

85. to whom?

[citizen snips]

89. The voters in Florida.

[KansDem]

87. It is easier to believe the truth than a lie...

Yes, it was stolen...
Yes, it was a coup...

How Americans can believe otherwise is beyond me. They must like to do things the hard way.

[MamaBear]

88. Stolen.

I don't think I can add anything to what's already been said here. Stolen without a doubt, and they'll do it again in a heartbeat.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

92. Absolutely Stolen.

And the Diebold machines are making another theft this year highly likely.

[cthrumatrix]

93. too much data out that shows how it was stolen...a review by all is needed

[WillyT]

94. Yep - Stolen !!!

:mad::nuke::grr:

[0007]

95. definitely yes, but its time to move on and put it behind us.

[scottcsmith]

96. Yeah, I believe it

I read Greg Palast's account of the 2000 election in his fine book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" and he laid out a pretty solid case for how votes were lost or never counted in the first place. According to Palast, the State of Florida used software that was supposed to go through the voter records and purge people who were not eligible to vote. But the software was problematic, often times flagging a name that shouldn't have been flagged for removal. Also, a large number of qualified voters were turned away (again, according to Palast) because of criminal records from other states. However, this record is not supposed to carry over to a new state so those voters should have been eligible to vote.

Other problems included the Bush team allowing absentee ballots from service members to be counted even though they were not received in time for the election.

Check out the book if you haven't already, it's a good read.

[GOPBasher]

97. Bush won fair and square. It was NOT stolen.

Hahahahahaha Just kidding, but I got you to look! :)

[proud patriot]

98. A usurption transpired

The will of the American people was thwarted

The U.S. Constitution was trampled

Anyone who believes otherwise , has not read the
Constitution or the facts surrounding the 200 election.

[indigo32]

99. YES

The voter purge lists were a CRIME

[linazelle]

100. Is the sky blue?

Yes the election was stolen. I just hope that we don't have the same complicity and silence in November that enabled them to get away with it last time. The RepubliCONs will do anything to get and keep power. No integrity whatsoever.

[Wapsie B]

103. He** yes it was!

My hope in all this is for each and every member of the Florida goon squad that stopped the recount suffers for all of eternity. A fiery pit in hell awaits them all.

[Minstrel Boy]

105. Grand Theft Republic

And the perps are still at large. Approach with extreme outrage. They are considered armed and extremely dangerous.