U.S. & our laws were founded in Christian teachings & heritage

[carrowsboy]

What's the best way to respond to this?

[Dookus]

1. the simple

answer is they could've said so in the constitution. But they didn't.

[Generic Other]

2. It was also based on slavery, Indian killing, and oppressing women

All bad ideas should come to an end.

[INTELBYTES]

7. pffffttt....

Where does that tripe come from?

[Generic Other]

9. US and European History

Try reading it sometime. It's eyeopening.

And don't suck your teeth at me, littlebytes

[INTELBYTES]

12. Go ahead ask me a history question.

But make it between the years of 1980 and 2003. Go ahead! I'll answer anything!

Pfffftttt!!!

[Generic Other]

17. 1980-2003? Bwahahahaha! Current events are hardly history, Intelibittie

And why do you drool everytime you talk to me?

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. Non, committal smile, tilt head, back away slowly,pointing to your drink

Find someone else to talk to and keep the conversation on flowers and dogs.

[Cleita]

4. The constitution was based on Iroquois law. The founding

fathers were deists and followed a philosophy of enlightment. Neither had much basis in Christianity. Of course Christianity is based on Judaism, with some liberal doses of old world paganism thrown in.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

6. exactly

the Founding Fathers were more Deists than they were Christian. That's not to say that they weren't Christian, they were just completely against the implementation of religion in the Government they were founding. Fundies tend to forget that the whole reason most English initially came here was to resist governments that co-opted religion.

[Frances]

11. The founding fathers were a product of the Age of Reason, NOT of

the Age of Faith.

Most of the founding fathers thought of God as a clock maker, as a being that had made the universe and then stood back and let it tick on its own. They believed that God gave man a brain and expected him to use it to understand what made the universe tick. (Most Americans know that Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were very interested in scientific experiments and inventions, which were characteristic of the Age of Reason.)

The founding fathers built a wall betweeen religious institutions and government because the founding fathers thought that power should come from the people up to the institutions of government. This philosophy was in direct contrast to the philosophy of the divine right of kings that ssid that power came from God to the king and then to the nobles and that the people were the subjects of the king.

I think that Bush and his supporters are trying to take this country back to where it was before the Revolutionary War.

[AndyTiedye]

23. Iroquois Law?

Could you provide some references for this?
I had not heard it before and this is very interesting.

[Cleita]

24. Not really, but I'm sure someone can.

I learned this in school many years ago that our Constitution was based on the same principles that the Native Americans had in the east to govern their Nation, which was a confederation of different tribes. Our founding fathers had familiarity with their government and so drafted the Constitution in a similar mode. You must admit that it was different than anything in Europe at that time.

[Beearewhyain]

25. I looked in some of my old links and found...

a couple of links that may give you a general feeling for the argument. Please note that I am not endorsing what may be said but I think they are a good jumping off point. Hope they help

http://www.yaf.com/iroquoisi.shtml

http://se1.com/ush/fd/iroquois_constitution.htm

[La_Serpiente]

5. Look up the Treaty of Tripoli

http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/tripoli.html

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/buckner_tripoli.html

[Nevernose]

8. Why not just let the FOUNDING FATHERS respond?

http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html
Take the quotes from Thomas Paine, among others:
From The Age of Reason, pp. 8–9:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”

From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”

From The Age of Reason:
“What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder.”

From The Age of Reason:
“Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it — not to terrify but to extirpate.”

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”



(Ignorant Freeper types who will do anything (or ignore reality/history) for "their" religion really piss me off.)

[pocoloco]

16. The fundies were a pain in Paine's ass way back then too.

The "Ignorant Freeper types" can probably trace their family tree back to them!

[PassingFair]

10. with facts...

Check out the "Jefferson Bible" and nearly everything else that Thomas Jefferson (the writer of the Constitution) had to say about organized religion. Also check out the writings and legal manuevers of Madison. Check out Thomas Paine. Ask what "laws" are in the ten commandments that aren't included in the Code of Hammurabi.
The U.S. was constitued as a SECULAR nation. THAT, and decent, free, public education are what originally set us apart from the world. The ideals of this country are based on principles of the european Enlightenment, precisely to avoid what had occurred during centuries of insidious religious infestation in Europe.

Can you say "Inquisition"?

FYI, there WERE those who argued UNSUCCESSFULLY for more religious language in our articles of confederation, constitution, bill of rights, etc. They were mostly church fathers or ancestors of the people who later went on to lose the civil war.

I'd send you some links if I weren't so tired, but, truth be told, the facts aren't hard to find.

Good Luck!

[rudeboy666]

14. the declaration

"Thomas Jefferson (the writer of the Constitution)"

With the exeption of the notables, I think that most founders were practicing christians. Even many of the deists expressed reverential language occasionally(not surprising in a nation where the majority of citizens were christians!).

The upshot is that the founders consisted of many individuals with different worldviews(though mainly within the realm of christianity). It is significant that they were able to agree on a common(neutral) form of government____made possible by the ideas of the Enlightenment.

[Beearewhyain]

19. Please don't take this the wrong way

but as a political science guy I have to correct you on the authorship of the Constitution. If anyone was the author it was Madison. Everything else I more or less agree with. :-)

[RainDog]

13. Tell them to read the Constitution

tell them "under god" is a modern invention of the age of McCarthy.

tell them that if any "religion" had an influence on the founding of America, it would be the freemasons, not Christianity.

their symbols are in our bldgs in DC (Washington Monument, symbols, on our currency, and many of the founders were free masons, as was Mozart and many others who supported revolutions against the church and state totalitarian control of what REALLY was old Europe.

[populistmom]

15. Even if it were true

Does it means non-believers don't have to pay their taxes since after-all, it isn't THEIR country?

[randr]

18. Ask the obvious

I had this very discussion at work today and the final outcome was a question of "what is in our constitution or laws that comes from the bible?" Name one aspect of our government that comes from any biblical reference.
One of the most important aspects of the formation of our governance is based the tribunal of separation between the executive, judicial, and legislative bodies. This was a gift from the Iroquois Nation.
If there is any reference to democracy or any sort of federalist system in the Bible I would like to know about it.

[RainDog]

20. Equally important..

Tell them to read some honest history about the Jamestown settlement.

According to records at the time, the REAL REASON Jamestown was settled had NOTHING to do with religious freedom, and ALL ABOUT exploiting the resources of the "new world."

The settlers expected to find gold in them thar plymouth rocks, but they didn't.

Once they were here, they had no choice. They could not return or they would have been imprisoned or worse before they got on a book back to England (which some wanted to do.)

The idea that this was founded as a Christian nation is a lie, plain and simple, a mass of cheap propaganda to support a narrow-minded and mean-spirited power agenda of racists and xenophobes who hide behind religious pieties.

[Paulie]

22. Gold? Nope

Salted fish, if I remember correctly. :)

[Beearewhyain]

21. Just tell them

that when they start living like a Puritan they can make that argument. :silly: