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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:09 PM
Original message
Poll question: Thumbs up or thumbs down: Deadwood
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MsUnderstood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. The big turn off for me
Is the constant use of C##K S###ER and M###ER F###ER in every other sentence.

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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I have no problem with the language itself
except that's NOT the western style to swear constantly.
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MsUnderstood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I don't mind vulgar language
But I think it needs to be used as a word and not a punctuation. The method of using the language is for shock value and not to enhance the story line.

I'm glad to hear it isn't historically correct either--that just scared me!
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Where did you hear that?
I'm glad to hear it isn't historically correct either

It isn't? Where did you hear that?

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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. History, meaning
The Age of Bonanza and Gunsmoke ;)
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. lol
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. See post #19
I know you were responding to someone else, but just in case you were asking me too...
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MsUnderstood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. That is what sirjwtheblack said
I assummed with a name like Sir JW he must know his history.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. see post #19
and Sir JW the Black stands for Sir Johnnie Walker the Black, as in Black Label scotch.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. It most certainly was...
Read any contemporary account and you will find people commenting about the vulgar language used on the frontier...
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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. I learned how to swear in Wyoming
Edited on Mon May-17-04 04:12 PM by LiviaOlivia
I don't know what you mean.

This show is one of the best things I've watched on TV in a long time.
Excerpt from a TNR review I liked:


<snip>
As Dourif's Doc Cochran puts it: "I see as much misery out of them movin' to justify themselves as them that set out to do harm." In other words, "Deadwood" is going to tell human experience like it is: every person a mingled yarn, good and ill, not a black- or white-hatted caricature of pure evil versus pure good. Of course, the phrase "mingled yarn, good and ill" is Shakespeare's: Television's new style of complexity has been around for a long time. To read a lot of the current commentary on "Deadwood," one would think the idea that a person can be good and bad at the same time is a secret that popular culture has only recently pried from the clutches of high art. In fact, such "complexity" has been part and parcel of the Western for a long time, but it was an integral mingling of opposite moral qualities, not a self-consciously constructed "complexity." Consider the subtle undermining of a living legend--Jimmy Stewart's Senator Ransom--in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance; or the deconstruction of gender roles in Johnny Guitar; or the dissolution of ethical categories in One-Eyed Jacks. Even Howard Hawks's Red River possesses depths of nuance and ambiguity, though it has the reputation of being so much the archetypal old-fashioned Western that McMurtry made it the last picture--the last cinematic example of bygone heroic grandeur--in his The Last Picture Show. But the struggle between John Wayne, the brutal father, and Montgomery Clift, the soft, vulnerable, almost feminine son, implies all the murky libidinal and egoistic conflict a jaded palate could hope for. And it's set against the background of the cattle drive, which enveloped the "old" cowboy movies with the very theme of appetite and instinct running up against civilized boundaries that you get in "Deadwood." Back then, however, viewers had to apply their imaginations to the themes like miners prospecting gold with pick-axes and pans.

So though "Deadwood" is all about digging deep for treasure, it's own depths are right there, strewn with blood and guts and Mametian "fucks" all over the surface of the screen. Yet it's hard to understand why so many people seem startled by the grit--especially when Homicide and Glengarry Glen Ross are right there on your cable menu, nestled up against "Deadwood." After all, aggressive seaminess is one of HBO's trademarks: think "Oz," think "Sopranos." Or recall the 1999 HBO cowboy movie The Jack Bull with John Cusack, which was based on a story by the nineteenth-century German novelist Heinrich von Kleist about the perverted consequences of a fanatical quest for justice, an adaptation that proved how easily the Western genre accommodates muddy, mingled yarns, even from the hands of a German romantic who probably never laid eyes on a pair of chaps or a Colt Peacemaker.

Take away the show's moderate (by this point in time) sex and violence, and its immoderate cussing, and "Deadwood" is really a very enjoyable, good old-fashioned cowboy movie whose characters are, in the end, no more discomfiting than the characters in more conventional-seeming cowboy movies. If anything, the show's violence rules its plots with an iron hand; your senses get addicted to the extremity and you find yourself in something like a state of withdrawal as you patiently absorb the subtle, sensitive character studies. Like most serious television drama, the series is driven by characters rather than plot, and you occasionally get the former stopping to recap storylines that get tangled and obscure as they hurtle along in their violent direction, while the writers follow a different direction and concentrate on developing their fictional people. But though these figures often unfold with great psychological nuance, their yarns don't stay mingled for long.

<snip>
Swearengen (superbly played by Ian McShane) doesn't commit a single infraction without a practical purpose that is rooted in his rational apprehension of his environment. Unlike the motive-less Iagos or the solipsistic Raskolnikovs of literature, knowable, understandable, self-explanatory villains like Swearengen are popular culture's gratifying gift to the sleepless. They are not malign; they are quantitative; they proceed, as we like to say, "pragmatically." We can grasp their nefarious purposes over lunch. And just in case the illusion of knowable evil isn't sufficient to calm viewers excited by all the violence and bad words, McShane and the other actors play their characters theatrically, rather than, as on "Sex and the City," naturalistically, or, as on "The Sopranos," a combination of the two styles. So, in the end, the "shattering" grittiness of "Deadwood" serves to create the illusion that the most extreme violence is distinguished by outsized dialogue and a controllable cause. "Deadwood"'s real pleasure comes between extremities: the drama of how people live when they're not being shot at, beaten, or stabbed, but simply under pressure of the nakedly human.

https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=tube&s=siegel032904
subcription req'd
Lee Siegel is TNR's television critic.














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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. "Western style" does NOT equal "historically correct"
I don't know how that got misinterpreted in any way, but no decent Western has ever used an abundance of vulgar language and THAT is what I meant. Being that I specifically used the word "style", that should've tipped a lot of people off...
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. They were not "westerners".. they were the "flotsam and jetsam"
from "back east". They were the rough crowd that arrived, lawless...ready to find their fortune.. The fact that there WAS NO LAW, attracted a lot of pretty nasty people..

Some come to find their fortune, and return to the east...victorious...but a lot more cam to ROB the ones who DID find gold..

The whorehouses and saloons were a natural offshoot to 'service" the ruffians..and to take their money :)

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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. We had a problem with that too. It's worse than the South Park movie.
Seriously, I think they said fuck or fuckers 20 times in the first 2 minutes we watched it.

I don't even know when the word fuck came into usage, and I have no clue if it was in common use at the time, but AFAIK it was not used THAT much.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Fuck is a very, very old word;
and I find quaint the idea that people in the past cursed less than people in the present. And there is no more cursing on this show than on many of the worksites I've been on.
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MsUnderstood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I had heard FUCK was an acronym
During the "olde days" when we had public stocks, they would put signs on the people being punished. One sign was For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" and eventually it was shortened to FUCK.

Of course this conversation got me to researching and Urbanlegends provided the key:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl-f-word.htm

--snip--
The word "fuck" did not originate as an acronym. It crept, fully formed, into the English language from Dutch or Low German around the 15th century — it's impossible to say precisely when because so little documentary evidence exists, probably due to the fact that the word was so taboo throughout its early history that people were afraid to write it down. (The American Heritage Dictionary says its first known occurrence in English literature was in the satirical poem, "Flen, Flyss" (c.1500), where it was both disguised as a Latin word and encrypted — "gxddbov," deciphered as "fuccant," pseudo-Latin for "they fuck.")
--snip--
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. The word comes from a combination of Latin and English...
It's first known use in writing was around 1500.

The problem with determining how much people used vulgar language prior to the invention of devices that record sound is that personal letters and formal writing do not, on the whole, use such words.

But there are ample historical references that indicate people used vulgar language quite openly. These references refer to the vulgar habits of commoners, mostly, but you can find it elsewhere. Study the elections of 1828 and 1832, for example. You will find that one of the most prevalent complaints about Jackson and Jackson's supporters was their course manners, and "casual" tongue. Such a phrase as "casual tongue" is, in the context of the complain, clearly a reference to crudeness of language.

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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I know the word fuck has existed for hundreds of years.
I have no doubt it may have been used in the old west.

My point is the enormous leap of faith from 'may have been used' to 'was said every other word'.

And even if some people in the old west did talk exactly like that, what the hell does that lend to the movie? A helluva lot of them probably spoke Norwegian too, but nobody seems to speak that way in the movie, so swearing isn't being used to make the movie historically accurate.

To me, constant, repeated, gratuitous swearing like that makes it damned near unwatchable. The swearing detracts from the actual dialogue.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I don't disagree...

...as a criticism of the show. I think the incessant use of vulgar slang does detract from most forms of entertainment. Richard Pryor is about my personal limit, and not very many people could get away with it the way he did. He knew where and how to use it, in other words. Your example, South Park, was just atrocious. It's only funny for a few seconds, after the shock value wears off. As you imply, it is distracting.

I just don't think saying that such words weren't used that much in reality is a viable criticism. We're not positive if they were or were not, but it's not a huge leap of faith to say think they were. If we can easily accept a world in which people were shot dead on the street on a daily basis, I don't see how the ample use of profanity is such a stretch. In fact, the murder rate of the so-called Old West is probably more exaggerated than the language used.

Anyway, I basically agree with the criticism. I'm not a fan of the show. But the historical accuracy of the language used has little to do with it.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. It was the entire point of the movie.
You either weren't paying attention or you're the type of person the movie was satirizing.
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. And the 'entire point' of which movie was what exactly?
Are you saying the entire point of Deadwood was to say the word fuck as often as possible? Or that the entire point of Southpark was that lots of swearing isn't necessarily a bad thing? Or maybe the point was if we allow Canadian actors to make fart jokes it will cause a war with Canada. Or maybe the point was all of the Baldwins should not live in the same house.

Personally, I think if anyone attempts to learn any lessons from Southpark they are going to have a hard time explaining Towelie. The purpose of Southpark is to make people laugh and push the borders, not to teach great moral lessons.

Swearing in the Southpark movie was funny because it was extreme, and it was done for comic value. The swearing in Deadwood was annoying, repetitive, and pointless.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. You DID miss the entire point of the South Park movie
And yes, EVERY SINGLE SOUTH PARK EPISODE has a point. And it's usually a very good one too. There are several points to the South Park movie. If you don't see the point, you aren't paying any attention whatsoever or you're dismissing it because it appears to just be a pointless movie.

I'm not going to say anything about Deadwood outside of its stylistic flaws.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Fat kids yelling...
I dont see anything too deep about the cartoon...
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Big thumbs down
Edited on Mon May-17-04 02:33 PM by Melodybe
My least favorite convention of literature is an anachronism, sorry but Deadwood is totally unbelieveable. It might work if every other word wasn't "fucking cocksucker."

I like the actress that plays the drugged out lady, but this show stinks.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. What makes you think it is an anachronism?

Do you have some knowledge about how much or how little cursing went on in frontier mining camps? Based on what?

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searchingforlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. I read that there was a tremendous amount of research that went into the
multiple aspects of the presentation. The language is suppose to be a very accurate representation of what life was like back then. The picture we have is the picture that Hollywood presented and was very stylized.

I like the characters and am beginning to be able to look past the totally different presentation of the west. I do think that the fact that a life was worth next to nothing and moral men and woman were few and far between is truer that we would like to believe.

I think we resemble these characters much more than we realize today. We are just a little more polished and believe our own PR.
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Westegg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. I suggest the cursing is largely accurate...
...I've done a good bit of amateur research on the subject over the years (I'm a writer by trade; slang through the ages interests me), and I know at least that all the curses employed on "Deadwood" were in fact part of American frontier language at that time. Whether the actual residents of Deadwood blued the air with their profanities as often as these characters do, I can't say. I doubt anyone else can either.

I enjoy the show. I think it's bold and captivating. It verges on the artifice of stage drama/melodrama when various characters are delivering their soliloquies while scrubbing freshly spilled blood off the floors of saloons and whorehouses, but that's part of why I like it. It's out there, and it take chances.

As far as verisimilitude goes, I do know that the real Calamity Jane once helped curb a small-pox outbreak in Deadwood. There IS some historical truth behind the show.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. And Bill Hickock Reportedly Died Holding Aces and Eights!
Thumbs up from me!
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. Great great program
and a dead-on demonstration of why libertarianism is such a dreadfully bad idea.

Some great characters, and like the Sopranos, high drama punctuated by some of the best lines ever penned for television:

Swearingen: “Sometimes I wish we could just hit 'em over the head, rob 'em, and throw their bodies in the creek."
Tolliver: "But that would be wrong. ”

Hickok: "I don't think he took your meaning, quite."

Hickok: "Your husband and me had this talk, and I told him to head home to avoid a dark result. But I didn't say it in thunder. Ma'am, listen to the thunder.”

Jane: "Whatta ya asking me for? Shit, I don't make the rules."

Charlie: "I doubt I'd be a success in retail. I don't have the temperment."
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
27. My Favorite Show These Days, Bar None

Everything about "Deadwood" is first-rate: acting, writing, directing, casting, everything.

Nice to have something to look forward to on Sunday nights, now that "The Sopranos" has kinda cooled off (what the hell was with that half-hour dream sequence this week? Sheesh!)
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
29. Huge Thumbs Up!
Great Fucking show Cocksuckers!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
30. It's like "Gun Smoke" except it's good...
I love it- its the only show I look forward too...
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