A perspective on "cliques"

[realisticphish]

Since we all seem to be willing to start rationally discussing the Lounge's problems, I thought i might add something that might be useful.

I've gone from a total stranger in the lounge to, if not being known, than at least knowing others. And I've seen some totally unintentional stuff that might lead to a hostile newbie environment (hostile in the ability to participate sense, not the members being hostile to newbies).

For example, there are a LOT of vanity threads. a LOT. "x is so cool" "hey x" "isn't x the best", etc. That's fine once in a while, but sometimes it gets piled up on one certain afternoon or evening, and the entire front page is vanity/copycat threads. That has to be intimidating to a newbie who knows noone, doesn't know the inside jokes, doesn't know neccesary background facts, and so on.

Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about each other. I mean, people have friends, and inside jokes, it's just the way it works. But posters should perhaps be wary of turning the lounge into a "clubhouse." All I'm saying is, let's try to include everyone as much as we can.

[Jara sang]

1. x is a fucking dick

did he say something about me?

[realisticphish]

2. i heard him

talking about your mom. something about zuccini, cool whip, and a goat

[northzax]

4. it wasn't a goat, quit tellin' stories

it was a mule in a BOAT.

[realisticphish]

5. does your mom

live on a farm in georgia? :evilgrin:

[northzax]

6. why yes

why do you ask, Dr. Horsely?

[realisticphish]

7. i think he should get an award

for World's Most Ironic Name :evilgrin:

oh, and dr. horsely says for your mom to tell "sally" hi

[BikeWriter]

47. He is not! Your friend Y is!

[cruadin]

3. Hey, you-know-who is trying to get that certain someone to...

----well, you know. ;)

[RevCheesehead]

8. Hi, phish

I've missed seeing ya around the boards. :hi:

(good post, BTW)

[realisticphish]

9. thanks

:hi:
I got kind of fed up with stuff on here, so I took advantage of midterms to have a DU-free couple of weeks. I'm back, for a while at least

[RevCheesehead]

11. well, I'm glad to see ya.

Midterms go well? (and shouldn't that be "finals" by now?) :)

[realisticphish]

12. finals in two weeks

we're on the quarters system. and they went pretty well, psych and sign language went fine... statistics was a little rough, but i survived. every passsing quarter as a psych major makes me more grateful i left engineering :D

[uppityperson]

10. Ignore me, no one respond

obligatory whine about how no one cares and never responds and the thread will die now

[havocmom]

13. Some people know how to work a room. Some don't.

Some won't try. That is not the room's doing.

[realisticphish]

14. that doesnt mean

that the room can't be more open to new people. pooh-poohing these concerns just causes more friction

[havocmom]

45. Didn't say that was everybody's issue with the lounge

I happen to be pretty friendly, open and actually defend a lot of newbies. But the fact is, some people just don't know how to start commnications or keep it going and some refuse to work on those skills.

Some people have been treated poorly, but most lounge lizards are decent and give people a chance.

Learning to 'work the room' is good advice to anybody.

Poop-pooh my remarks? So does that make you part of the problem too or did I just not make my point well the first try? Seems both are viable explanations and thay makes my point.

If I were a newbie and you accused me of pooh-poohing something, that is bad? Since I am not a newbie it is OK? Sorry, I'm confused. I treat all comers like adults with respect and dignity until I either know them well enough to tease them or they act in a way which indicates they do not wish to return the favor of my initial behavior towards them. Some people just don't communicate as well as others. Not anybody's fault. Refusing to try and learn better communication, now that is a fault some folks have.

Some people get treated badly. Some just don't know how to work a room and then claim they are treated badly cuz things don't go the way they want to. THAT is life, not pooh pooh.

[progmom]

15. i was new

got here in november. didn't understand all the Kleeb threads. what i don't get is how this is Kleeb's fault. or why someone mystified by the Kleeb threads doesn't start a new thread about something that interests them. :shrug:

[realisticphish]

16. that is true

it's a two way street. some people expect the forum to be their personal place without any effort on their part. but like i said, im just saying that people should cool it when the forum gets overloaded with that kind of thing.


and it's not kleeb's fault. it's matcom's ;)

[Lavender Brown]

17. I don't think that it was the in-joking that set this thing off

It's just a weird byproduct of that dustup. :shrug:

[Beaverhausen]

19. but I think the in-joking escalated it

the piling on probably just made it worse.

[Lars39]

18. It's basic manners, whether it's internet or not.

And Gawd help me, I'm going to answer seriously, with "you" being the general "you". :)
Do you come here to have conversations in whatever directions your
interests carry you, or do you stay within a set sphere of friends,
relying on them for entertainment?

Do you ever reply to people just because you know they are lonely or
hardly ever get responses?

How egalitarian were you brought up?
Were you taught to have as much respect for the school janitor as you
were the teacher?
As much respect for the poor as the rich?
As much respect for the shy as the outgoing?
As much respect for the old as the young?

I was taught to try to make friends with everyone, not just the little group I was comfortable with.

I remember first quarter at college. Those that had stayed with the
same group of friends they'd had since 1st grade were totally clueless to making new friends.
They had stunted themselves in ways they never comprehended by not trying to be friends with everyone.

[RevCheesehead]

23. Basic Manners, and not-so-Common Courtesy

Actually, I was taught to seek out the poor, the lonely, the outcast, and the stranger. I was taught that these are the people who have tremendous value, and have much to offer the world.

These are my "family values." That's how I was raised. I don't know if it's characteristically liberal or democratic or progressive; but I do know that it is Christian.

I've also learned things from my liberal Christian parents that weren't in the Bible. Things like "think before you speak," and "try putting yourself in someone else's shoes," and especially "the whole world doesn't revolve around you." They taught me to be polite and courteous, to expect great things from others (because people will live up to your expectations, if you let them), to appreciate a good education but value wisdom more.

My dad's basic theology/outlook on life comes down to these things:
1. There's a place for everything, and everything belongs in its place.
2. If you don't know what to do, then think how Jesus would respond (and this was years before the WWJD thing became popular).
3. Don't be like a big bunch of sheep. Think for yourself.
4. Even the vilest person is "a sinner for whom Christ died."
5. Play the piano every day - especially hymns.
6. Pray at all times. Pray without ceasing.
7. Even in the worst circumstances, there's still hope. And if you still can't see hope, then "maybe Jesus will return tomorrow, and your problems will be over."

My mom's: Be nice, and treat others the same way you want to be treated.

[Ariana Celeste]

32. Sounds like great parents to learn from!

:hi:

[Zenlitened]

20. If that's all it takes to scare someone off, an afternoon or evening...

... of obvious silliness... well, then the Lounge might not be a good match for them. It's that simple. I'm sorry, but that's my honest answer.

Some people just don't have the temperament for a fast-moving, goofball discussion area. That's why I'd like to see the Meeting Room restored to a position of prominence -- it was still freewheeling in terms of topics for discussion, but had a very different atmosphere.

Kind of like spending an evening at a favorite coffee-house, rather than hitting the dance clubs.

[realisticphish]

22. look, im not saying STOP it

all im asking is that people watch it sometimes. i love the lounge, but sometimes there's overkill.

[Zenlitened]

35. But, you ARE saying 'stop it,' it seems to me.

Otherwise, what does 'watch it' mean? It sounds like you're saying that, when the silliness reaches a certain point, everyone participating needs to agree to put a halt to it. When the silliness is why they're hanging out in the Lounge in the first place.

I just find that line of argument baffling. There's a cool nightclub in town, but they play the music too loud for my ears, and the music doesn't really suit my tastes. Should I go in anyway, tell everyone how their hangout sucks, and try to get the DJ to play different tunes at a lower volume? No, I think it's incumbent on me to decide whether that club is a good match for me or not.

In the case of the Lounge, though, it turns out I DO have a way to customize the environment a bit. When the copycat threads are piling up to the point where I find it tiresome, I start clicking on "hide thread." There are a couple of posters whose style I don't enjoy, or who dwell on certain topics to such a degree that I find it annoying. So I have them on "ignore." I don't see them, they don't have Zenlitened sulking around their threads saying "shut up shut up shut up." I don't think I have a right, frankly, to expect more control than that.

As far as the threads I post... well, some months ago I put together a post that had me CRACKING UP. Really, laughing out loud as I composed it. And it sank like a stone! Why? I dunno. Didn't tickle anyone else, I guess. That's their call, not mine. I can't DEMAND that people reply to my posts. So I enjoyed the endorphin buzz while it lasted, and moved on. What else could I do? :shrug:

It's just a simple fact that we're here voluntarily. Only we can decide what we read and what we post, what we dwell on and what we ignore. I've been reminded lately of a quote from Eleanor Roosevelt: "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission." My state of mind is up to me. If I want to be heard, I'll find a way. If I want nothing to do with someone in particular, there are tools here to empower me to do that as well. But standing in a room full of 70,000 people trying to get them to abide by my rules or my standards... well, that just doesn't seem realistic to me.

[Zenlitened]

51. Nothing?

Oh well. Guess I'll have to work on better analogies. :)

[Bouncy Ball]

21. That's been happening for a long time.

And it didn't stop me when I first found the lounge.

When they really pile up on one person, it is usually an attempt to be absurd or sarcastic, rather than ass-kissing. Witness the Kleeb threads a while back.

Everyone who dislikes the lounge needs to get together and start posting threads they DO like. That will knock the ones they don't down off the front page.

Or put the vanity threads on hide, remembering this isn't a serious forum and so there will always be a lot.

Which brings me back to my first point: there have been threads like that in the lounge for at *least* 18 months, maybe longer, someone else will have to attest to that. It didn't stop me from posting or starting threads. Didn't make me feel weird. In fact, when everyone piled on Kleeb and I knew he was sitting somewhere in Virginia with a red face, I laughed, because I know he's good-natured enough to know not to take it seriously.

:shrug:

[Left Is Write]

27. The thing about perceptions of cliques is...

It is not a phenomenon unique to the Lounge at the Democratic Underground. Any relatively large, public website is going to go through the same sorts of struggles from time to time. It's almost inevitable.

There will always be people who feel intimidated by a group of people who have a history together. And, let's face it - that IS intimidating. It can be hard to figure out how to crack that nut (so to speak - nobody pile on me for calling the lot of you nuts! ;) ). That doesn't mean the group of people who have a history together are being deliberately exclusionary. I do think it's a good idea to lurk for a while when I join a new board, to get a feel for the board dynamics and how people relate to one another there.

Sometimes we perceive things in ways that were not intended by the poster at all. In a fairly recent discussion I had on GD, my words were written from a POV that was as completely different as possible from the person to whom I was speaking. He read my words through his own filter and attached a meaning to them I didn't intend. We talked at cross-purposes for a while, misunderstanding each other, until finally we came to the point where we realized the miscommunication was based on our own experiences coloring our perceptions. It's important to accept that that can happen more often in a written forum than a face-to-face one.

Sometimes I jump to the wrong conclusions also, though I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and not assume that a post that sounds snarky was necessarily meant that way. I don't assume that I am meant to be excluded from anything, particularly if I'm choosing not to participate in a specific thread.

We've seen this happen time and again elsewhere - newbies feel excluded, they feel the environment is hostile, they believe oldtimers run roughshod over them. And maybe most people do give more latitude to people they know well; isn't that human nature?

The most important thing to remember is that behind the screen, behind the keyboard, are real people. And all of them are potential friends.

[Terran]

24. Question re: copy-cat threads

Do people really find those an aspect of cliquishness? I don't ever actually read them, I just observe that there's an original serious thread and a few satirical offshoots, and frankly I think they're pretty funny. I don't see how a newbie would feel excluded by those (but then, as I said, I don't actually read them).

I'm finding this whole clique things both weird and interesting. I'm a long-time member who somehow hasn't formed too many attachments at DU, possibly because I tend toward sarcasm and acidity in a lot of my posts. But the folks who more or less know me here actually like me for me, I think, and it's vice-versa. I have been active in other sorts of forums too, and it seems to me that cliques are sort of inevitable, and jealousy of them is inevitable too. Some people are more outspoken than others, some are more witty than others, and some make friends more easily than others. In the on-line world, those who have a distinctive "voice" are the ones that people flock to hear. It's the way real life works too.

[Lars39]

26. It is a strange feeling to respond seriously to a copycat thread,

not knowing it is a copycat. :)

[Left Is Write]

30. Those copy cat threads often spawn interesting discussions

in their own right, though. They take on lives of their own!

[Tsiyu]

52. I agree

I can recall posting a passionate diatribe of some sort in GD, and watching my carefully constructed post plunge into the depths of the forum.

Later, when I posted a copycat about goats, it provoked more replies than I normally receive in the Lounge. I thought that was funny. Copycat threads are not insults to me. It's a game. And naively responding to a copycat as if it were a sincere OP is no cause to feel duped or excluded.

I think some of the copycats are the most interesting posts on DU.

Copycat threads aren't the problem, is all I'm sayin.'

[Lone_Star_Dem]

36. I'm sure I did that more than once

I used to stay in latest and post from there when I was new. I hate to think of the number of times I replied seriously to a copy cat. :)

Luckily they had the name change soon after that. The lounge will never know. :P

[Terran]

48. Ooooooooh...

Gotcha. :think:

[WI_DEM]

63. if a newbie posted a "original serious thread" that got a "few

satirical off shoots" that in itself could intimidate a new poster. Are they making fun of his post? I know when I first saw somebody do that to one of my posts I thought that was the case. Now I know it is just for fun--but at first you feel a bit embarrassed.

[_testify_]

25. the view from the cheap seats...

Okay so I've got less than 200 posts but I have been part of one online community or another since '95 when I thought a 14.4 modem was more speed than I would ever need. I have been part of the 'elite', low-man on the pole, and everything in-between.
The DU lounge is exactly the same as every other board/chatroom I've been a part of. When you are new, you don't know shit about the inside jokes, the behind-the-scenes machinations, or the people who seem really stand-offish. There are threads that obviously weren't looking for my input, and there are threads that are warm & inviting. If you don't like the current threads, post your own. I still haven't made any 'friends' here, but that won't stop me from trying to participate. Like anything else, it takes time and effort.
Would I like to know every inside joke, every relationship gone sour, every embarassing moment that preceded my arrival? Of course. I'm an information hound - which is why I come here to begin with. Do I resent other people because they got here first and are hogging all the love? Nope, cuz either one day I'll be viewed the same way by another newcomer, or I'll still be an outsider. In which case, you're all obviously a bunch of elitist fuckwads.

Just kidding.

p.s. When I was in HS we had a reply for people who complained about being shit on - 'get a helmet'. It applies here too!

[Left Is Write]

28. Wow.

You're certainly more concise than I am on essentially the same point. ;)

[progmom]

31. hey testify

they second time in two days i have found myself nodding along to one of your posts.
i'm glad you're here.

:hug:

[Lars39]

40. "Get a helmet" just sounds like an excuse to not treat people right

or to not stick up for them if they've been wronged; 'just be happy with the status quo, 'cause there ain't no changin' it.' Blech.

This may shock you, but there are folks here that are just now dipping their middle-aged (or older) toes into this Internets thing called Discussion Forums. :)

[_testify_]

43. I can see how it could be construed that way

but for us, it was the classic response to someone complaining that they weren't being treated like the prom king or queen. It can't be your birthday every day, y'know?

I'm not shocked by anything I find on the internet anymore, least of all middle-aged feet.

[Lars39]

44. I understand.

:)

[Bouncy Ball]

41. Well I like straight talk like that.

Great post!

[NoSheep]

29. My take on it:

I come here to chill and get a few laughs. Sometimes I get tears. I'm 42 yrs old. I've been through a lot of shit. I just don't get worked up about stuff that seems somewhat exclusive of me. ( Just like real life) Sure, I'm curious at times, and when I am, I ask. I don't think I've ever asked a question and been completely ignored. One poster said, if you can't find a thread to be a part of, start one and see what happens.
I'm not saying newbies won't be intimidated to some degree. I just think this can't be avoided. You are not wrong to ask folks to think about it....what it might mean to someone else who is new. I'm just saying that is how I deal with it.:hi:

[realisticphish]

33. cool

:hi:
that really is all i want, is for people to think about what they're doing, before they do it

[NoSheep]

37. Where did you get that wacky spoon and banana?

[realisticphish]

42. its from "rejected"

an animation short by don hertzfeldt

one of the most surreal and hilarious cartoons of all time
http://www.bitterfilms.com/rejected.html

[skygazer]

34. This whole clique thing has me puzzled

I'm the last person anyone would think of when they say "clique." I don't have a long buddy list (I don't have a buddy list at all), I don't have a group that I hang out with, no one really knows me per se.

So what?

This is a message board. When I first got here, whenever it was, I checked out forums, posted when and where I felt like it, gradually got to recognize a lot of people and learned some of the in-jokes and history. I still don't belong to any exclusive groups, I still post what, when and where I feel like it, I sometimes get replies and I sometimes don't and I don't stress on it because it's a message board with over 60,000 members.

So there are some people who've gotten real chummy - why should I care? Good for them, they've got cyberfriends. No one has been actively rude or shitty to me, telling me to piss off and go play elsewhere - I've never seen that behavior towards anyone (except trolls) which leads me to believe that those who complain about being left out are simply projecting their own insecurities.

That's my 2 cents.

[progmom]

46. I think you'd be surprised

I am very aware of you, and always enjoy what you have to say.

And I thank you for your post in this thread. :thumbsup:

[tigereye]

56. I always like your posts Skygazer

you have a nice vibe. :)

[skygazer]

59. Well, thank you very much

You like me! You really like me!

[tigereye]

60. snort

:hi:

[xmas74]

38. I know you.

We talked about psychology and mental institutions one night.

[Ariana Celeste]

39. I would like to say, as a new person

okay, well, relatively new, I joined I believe last October- anyways from a relatively new person to everyone else:

I can honestly say I feel a little intimidated at times, and find myself beginning a reply and not finishing it, fairly often. But the times that I have gone through with my reply and gotten friendly responses have made it worth having some posts sink.

I've had to remind myself that there are a TON of people here, and that having a post sink doesn't mean that I am being ignored. It just means everyone is focused on whatever else at the time and I can always post again if I feel the post has any signifigance. I try to just reply to threads, mainly.

It's not anyone's fault that I feel intimidated sometimes. I think having my donor star helps a little bit. Anyways, I lost track of where I was going with this, so I will just say, that I appreciate the responses I have gotten from some people, and regardless of the fact I am not recognized, I absolutely love it here!

I just try not to respond to flame-worthy threads and I seem to get by just fine. Anyways. My $.02. :7

[Terran]

50. I think this is just "life at DU"

and find myself beginning a reply and not finishing it, fairly often. But the times that I have gone through with my reply and gotten friendly responses have made it worth having some posts sink.

Hi Ariana Celeste (pretty name btw)--I've been here almost four years and I still don't finish some posts. Mostly because I realize sometimes that I don't actually know what I'm talking about, and I do want to avoid what large numbers of DUers do, which is shoot from the hip without any facts in the gun (sorry for that non-progressive metaphor).

But the friendly responses do make it all worthwhile. Especially those rare "well said" posts! Hope you're enjoying the place; hang in there! :hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. Please reply.

Replies are always good. :7 Whether you think so or not. :hi:

[Modem Butterfly]

49. I have two words for you: Cat Shit.

YOU know what I mean.

[GalleryGod]

54. DU has never been the same since the Dean-Kerry Flame wars.

It's a line of demarcation, sort of like the Major League Baseball Strike.

The Great Clique Conflagration is ethereal in comparison.



:rofl: :spray: :rofl:

[youthere]

55. Okay I think I'll take a whack at it too...

I'm newer here myself and here's the advice I have for newer folks:
Post what you feel where you want. The reason all these people know each other is because they did that. How is anyone supposed to get to know you if you are too shy to reply to a thread? And here's a newsflash: Not every post will get a reply and people will disagree with you at some point.
As far as the "inside jokes" you'll be a part of some of them too, if you post long enough.(Someday I might get there too! :-) )
If you meet someone who is unbelievable rude,and intent on flaming you then put them on ignore or if its a violation of the rules alert a moderator and leave the thread.
I've never felt marginalized or looked down on. I have run into a couple jerks, and you will too from time to time. There are a lot of people on this message board and you can't really expect that after a couple (or even a couple hundred) posts that the long time members will know who you are immediately. If you're here to make friends then put yourself out there. All the intentionally rude people I have run into have been shut down by the mods, so don't let them stop you. There's a lot of good decent people here, and some downright hilarious ones. You can be a part of it, or not.
That's all.

[movie_girl99]

57. wow..that was well said

the lounge for me was/is far less intimidating the GD. I agree there do seem to be a lot of people who know one another but i can honestly say there no-one has ever been rude. Some folks reply and some don't but i don't get offended or feel left out. If i cant add anything to a post aside from "awesome", "good post", "you rock" just to get my post count up then i usually don't bother.

[Misunderestimator]

58. Misunderestimator is so cool!

:bounce:

Hey, isn't this the lounge? ;) this is where vanity threads go.

Why do we even try to change the behavior of people? It can't be done. I would never think of walking into my office and having a meeting with everyone to tell them all the ways they irritate each other. There are always going to be people who are intimidated by others, and there will always be obnoxious people, and attention seekers, and hilariously funny people, and thoughtful people, and sad and depressed people, and serious people. People come here for a lot of different reasons, and I can't imagine asking everyone to conform to one way of being.

So there are a lot of vanity threads. There are also a lot of members, and a lot of other forums right here without vanity threads.

Here at least I see people WELCOME newcomers, moreso than most forums.

[lastliberalintexas]

62. Is NOT!

:P


Sorry- I couldn't help myself when I saw your post right above mine!

[Misunderestimator]

64. LOL

too funny.... :hi:

[lastliberalintexas]

61. The lounge has always been this way

There's really nothing new about it, except that there are now different groups of people posting than the ones who were here when I first joined. And I'd really even say that all of DU is this way, as there are many posters from old who rarely if ever post anymore. The board is dynamic, which is great since without change and evolution it would become stagnant and die.

The Kleeb threads were preceded by the Yak threads which were preceded by the NMSA on the hood of you car threads which were preceded by - something I can't remember anymore. Nothing new under the sun. :)

People just need to post when and where they want (within the rules of course!), and let the chips fall where they may. Participation is the only way that posters will meet each other and find others they like- or not. Overall, this is a very friendly and open board. Indeed, sometimes I'd say too much so, since people feel too free to share personal information which can come back to hurt them. But it certainly isn't hostile to posters, newbies or otherwise. People just have to be willing to jump into the fray.

But then, I've only been accused of being a member of a "posse", so maybe I don't really even know about the cliques! :)

[NightNurse]

65. Posse ? Do we get badges too?

The Lounge Social in Boston, was a manifestation....

[lastliberalintexas]

66. Yep- really cool ones

Made of tin foil, of course!