I think we need to have a serious discussion about "rap music"

[underpants]

Yes this is yet another Grammy thread. Why I even tuned into the "best of the mostest popular cool kids music" show I have no idea and THEN I saw JayZ on stage with Paul McCartney and ______ (no idea).

The were apparently trying to sing "Long and Winding Road" and through skillful work by his agent or publicist JayZ was allowed on stage. Now I know that JayZ is acknowledged as one of the truly great "rap artists" but that was being embarrassing. Paul himself shot at least one "what the hell did I agree to this sounds ridiculous" look near the end.

Look I understand the whole "Street poet" thing. I have lived in a city and we had "street poets" but they mostly talk to the trash cans and to date, that I am aware, have not gotten record contracts...but then with the right publicity and some blingbling they would probably sell really well.

From time to time a good rap song will pop up but for the most part it is self congratulatory unmelodic filler. This brings us back to JayZ (LOVED him on that Mr.Cooper TV show :evilgrin: ) who I understand HAD retired. Good for him. Way to keep it real and do something for the kids.

I could go on but then none of this rhymes and I let my EltonJohn sunglasses at home so no one is probably paying attention anymore.

[aclog]

1. Why did you watch the Grammys

when you could've done something constructive such as using a shotgun to shut your TV up permanently ;)?

[LaraMN]

2. So what you're saying is that you are prejudiced against rap.

You are a rapist. Yikes! A rap-ist.:P

[underpants]

3. No I'm not

I liked that DMX one "Y'all gonna make me lose my mind" a universal theme of angst and frustration all can identify with. Or Identificy if that suits you.

The Beatie Boys apparently were aware of the melody and its function.

Snoop Dogg is just a fun national treasure.

and so on.

Like I said, from time to time it is worth it much like techno or reggae

[Mizmoon]

5. My uzi weighs a ton

B-)

[ContraBass Black]

29. Yeah, so does everybody else's.

Ho hum.

[Deja Q]

75. It's not how big it is, but how well you use it!

:rofl:

[ContraBass Black]

22. "The Beastie Boys apparently were aware of the melody and its function."

I thought they were more into cacophony.

[aclog]

4. I didn't hear him say anything prejudicial

he just doesn't like sucky music is all...;)

[LaraMN]

8. Just bein' a tease.

;-)
I am hardly the foremost authority on rap!:hi:

[aclog]

9. funnily enough my brother and I were discussing that old Kool-Aid stalwart

The Grapist yesterday. We're considering buying out Kool-Aid just to bring him back. And also to nix the fucking mystery flavor bullshit. Grape should be fucking grape and I don't want any cherry-colored-yet-orange-flavored bullshit either

[BikeWriter]

11. I am prejudiced against rap. It's crap.

[LaraMN]

18. I'm prejudiced against country music

and I think they need to burn every copy of "fishin' in the dark," so I can be spared bad high school dance memories. Ugh.:puke:

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

42. But I thought you and me's goin' fishin' in the dark?

I even cancelled an appointement to go giggin' frogs too. Damn. :(

[LaraMN]

51. *Cringe*

Just *Cringe*.

:spank:

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

62. OKay, well can I at least play you some mountain music?

Just like grandma and grandpa used to play?

[LaraMN]

63. My grandma and grandpa played Rummikub and organ music.

and I could stomach an evening of that over an evening Garth Brooks.

[BikeWriter]

66. WHAT? That's blasphemy!

:cry:

[Deja Q]

76. Country music: It induces suicide, divorce, and marriages:

Suicide: From how depressing it all sounds.

Divorce: From the wife because she thought he was a little weird, and not in a good way...

Marriages: Because all the songs about the hound dogs lookin' good are just a little bit too disturbing or the rest of us...

[ContraBass Black]

28. I'm prejudiced against classical.

Stuffy old people music. Those guys really need to get a life.

[BikeWriter]

67. I can enjoy a few minutes of it once every year or so.

[jmm]

6. My brother called my last night pissed off about

the Grammys and at one point he asked why "back in the day" the awards seemed to go to people who deserved them. My response was that the people who were voting "back in the day" are still voting now. That's the only reason why U2 won so many awards. :hide: Even the guy who produced their album won producer of the year. So basically we've got Grammy voters and organizers of one generation trying to decide how to appeal to another generation and failing to do much of anything right. That's why we end up seeing awkwardly matched duos from artists who agreed to do it because they're shocked they got they chance to work together.

:rant:

[underpants]

7. Who was the third guy?

Secada?

Just guessing.

Yes that is a good explanation.

[ProfessorGAC]

13. Was Your Brother Remembering . . .

. . .when Jethro Tull won as Best Heavy Metal Artist? Somehow i think "Back In The Day" the voters were as clueless as those today.
The Professor

[LynneSin]

16. Oh you mean when Thriller beat Synchronity?

After that I realized it was a popularity contest! Even the critics thought that Ray Charles really wasn't the best album from last year and figured they gave him the grammy out of sentimentality over Green Day and Kanye West

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

49. Record sales *should* figure into who gets nominated.

Otherwise, who'd watch the show? If some dude made a profoundly beautiful album in his basement and sells 5,000 copies gets nominated for best album and wins....everyone's gonna be scratching their heads and/or changing the channel. No one would have heard of him....and no one would care to watch him accept the award.

[tigereye]

57. that is sad, though Paul

wouldn't it be great if some unknown got up there and just blew everyone away, with no agents, no commercial label, no hype etc?

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

58. No.

[tigereye]

59. you are terrible

you are serious, aren't ya? ;)

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

60. No.

Well, maybe a little...but mostly no.

[Deja Q]

77. "All in the Family" was ignored... but then won a lot of awards...

Only THEN did it become popular to the masses.

But justifiably so, because it was fresh, new, original, thought-provoking, intelligently written.

Besides, the masses can be... um... dumb malleable. Just look at "Survivor" and everything it's won... :eyes: It's the exact opposite of AitF, in every way...

[tigereye]

56. pretty good analysis JMM

I hate when they relegate interesting artists to the "alternative" category, anything that isn't pop-pap to the Arctic section of the program, and also the idea that Mariah Carey (yes, she sings well, but) needs to win more awards. At least Kanye West can sing, and seems to actually have something to say.


So much of it is crap. Wish I could remember the name of some alternative awards that are much more interesting.

[BikeWriter]

10. Three beats into any rap song I become violent.

[Bridget Burke]

20. Not white enough for you?

Perhaps you can find some Vanilla Ice in the bargain bins.

Rap & Hip-Hop are not my faves, but I've been doing some research. Interesting stuff is going on here in Houston. Texas Music Magazine featured Mike Jones on the cover of the latest issue & explained why inside. Willie Nelson can't be on EVERY cover! (They did have a wonderful article on the late Gatemouth Brown, the Texas blues/country/cajun musician. He was dying of cancer but his last days were saddened because his beloved home was destroyed by Katrina. But he wasn't white, either.)

If I'm not in the mood for rap, I listen to something else.

[BikeWriter]

68. I could be black for that matter. I like most black music...

blues, jazz, and soul. Rap is far too discordant and sets me on edge immediately.

[ContraBass Black]

21. Whoa!

So, it is the rap music's fault.

[BikeWriter]

69. Among other things, yes.

[progmom]

12. there's a lot of great hip hop and rap out there

but like most pop music, for the most part the best stuff gets lost in the shuffle, and only the stuff that appeals to the lowest common denominator becomes popular.

[Fleshdancer]

14. I like Sean Paul....the whole rap/reggae thing

I'm intrigued by rap that is culturally influenced if that makes any sense. I'm bad with names so I can't tell you who does these things but rap with Indian, Latin or traditional African, etc sounds mixed in. Anything that sounds different is good. My requirements are 1. it has to make me dance and 2. I can't be completely disgusted by the lyrics and/or the artist (like eminem for example).

[LynneSin]

15. That was Linken Park they started off with Numb/Encore....

...and then moved into "Yesterday"

I thought that was a good presentiation. I'm a Linkin Park fan.

[RandomKoolzip]

17. If you're willing to give it a try, there's some hip hop artsits making

incredible music these days. If you're looking for melody and instrumental dexterity, give up now, don't bother. But Aesop Rock, El-P, The Coup, Anticon, and dozens more in the hip hop underground are making vital music using avant-garde sound collaging techniques (music conctrete meets Varese meets James Brown meets...) and a verbal facility not seen since Bob Dylan's glory years (Aesop Rock's lyrics are on a par, dare I say, with the best of Dylan, albeit updated to take in newer colloquialisms). Like I said, melody plays no part in this genre, so looking for some is a futile pusuit. But if you're willing to take a chance on some harsh, but vibrantly ALIVE music, there's much in the underground that's worth a cocked ear.

Oh, and another thing: the hip hop mainstream is a huge pile of suck. You have to find the good stuff on independent labels, just like rock these days.

[Bridget Burke]

27. Hey, I like country music.

But if you listen to Commercial Country Radio, you'd conclude it's all crap.

Rap & HipHop take a bit of reseach for us newbies. Yes, I've got treasured (rock, country, blues, folk) LP's from the 60's, 70's & 80's. But nostalgia has its limitations; I worked in some music venues "back in the day" & saw too many suckworthy & deservedly forgotten acts. And I've got CD's from every country & every century you could imagine. I refuse to be limited by genre.

Any recommendations are welcome.

[ghostsofgiants]

35. Recommendations...

The Roots (as have been mentioned) - "You Got Me" or "Next Movement"
Sweatshop Union - "The Thing About It"
Sage Francis - "Makeshift Patriot"
Mos Def - "Umi Says"
K-os - "Superstarr Part Zero" or "Follow Me"
Aesop Rock - "No Regrets"
Mr. Lif - "Home Of The Brave"
Deltron 3030 - "Memory Loss"
Buck 65 - "Pants On Fire" or "15 Minutes To Live"
Common - "The Sixth Sense"
MF Doom - "All Caps" (can be found under Madvillain, which is MF Doom and Madlib)
Atmosphere - "Always Coming Back Home To You"

Edited to add specific track suggestions.

[hobo_baggins]

45. I love me some Deltron 3030, that whole album is great

Thats one album that deserves a sequel.

[Initech]

48. Damn straight! All of Del's stuff kicks major ass.

[ghostsofgiants]

50. One of my favourite hip-hop albums.

Del, Automator and Kid Koala make a hell of a team.

[jane_pippin]

52. Good call. The Hieroglyphics record from a few years back was great too.

I don't know a whole lot about hip-hop/rap, but when my friends who do know about it give it to me to check out--well I almost always like what they send my way. That one was one of them.

[cassandra uprising]

72. nice list

Have you checked out Dead Prez or Saul Williams?

[ghostsofgiants]

73. I love Dead Prez!

I'm famliar with Saul, I've heard a few tracks by him, thoroughly enjoyed them.

[ContraBass Black]

30. "If you're looking for melody and instrumental dexterity, give up now"

Not so! Not so at all!

Start with the Roots, and go from there.

[RandomKoolzip]

31. Well, the Roots are the exception.

?uestlove is an AMAZING drummer, and their ability to utilize the small band format is noted and appreciated. But apart from them (and Cody ChestnuTT and very few others), instrumental facility is just not applicable to hiphop. The locus of effort and acheivement is in the verbal and textural arenas.

Which is fine, but such a shock to rock-raised ears that on first (or fifth, or seventy-sixth) listening, it can just sound like a bunch of noise with yelling on top of it. You need to acquire a taste for it.

As a "gateway" to the Hard Stuff, I suggest first downloading The Coup's song "Lazy Mutafucka," then El-P's "Stepfather Factory." Both of these songs are like a skeleton key to deciphering what's happening in the underground today.

[underpants]

32. See now folks this is exactly what I am talking about

Very informative you two. Thanks. I have learned much here.

[ContraBass Black]

33. Not so again, say I.

A few people who are good at what they do have turned sampleboards and record players from post-production units to composition instruments.

One of the most beautiful things to hear is when a rapper does his own production and does it well, so that words and background come together with the power to cut or crush. Case in point: J-Live.

I don't care for Kanye's rapping, but he's a master of sample.

Although I haven't been impressed with him recently, Swizz Beats is known for taking his keyboard and whipping nothing into a lot of something.

[imperialismispasse]

41. Bringing it back to Jay Z

He did an "Unplugged" album with the Roots band backing him up. It is great musically and flow wise. Great all around. And he is as mainstream as it gets.

[ContraBass Black]

46. That's my favorite of his work,

But Jaguar Wright steals the show.

[imperialismispasse]

47. Mary J is no slouch either, and Cody Chestnut on "Give It To Me"

[ghostsofgiants]

19. As apparently one of the only hip-hop fans around here...

I'd like to point out that Jay-Z (and any mainstream hip-hop) sucks in general. (Just like most other mainstream music is crap as well.)

[ContraBass Black]

23. I don't think we're that few.

I just think we're not nearly as loud as some of those who disagree.

[Crazy Dave]

24. Yo! Yo! Yo! I'm all fo' a disscusion MoFo!

J/K :P

[ContraBass Black]

25. Can you be more specific?

Which mofo?

[Crazy Dave]

34. I was just kidding

Nobody is a "MoFo" just making up something that rhymed and sounds like the stuff that comes out of the BOOM-BOOM cars when they're next to me a traffic light :)

[ContraBass Black]

36. I was kidding too.

[MissMillie]

26. I find I like the cadence of rap music -- for working out

especially jogging.

I do get the whole "street poet" thing, and I try not to be too judgmental about violent or misogynistic content, yada yada yada, but some of that stuff is just out of my comfort zone.

I don't know why, if JayZ is just a street poet, he needs to resort to jumping into McCartney's music. That's not "poetry".... that's adding your twist to someone else's stuff. Granted, McCartney apparently agreed to this, but like you said, he seemed to regret it.

[asthmaticeog]

37. You need to check out Dan the Automator, stat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_the_automator

Mainstream hio-hop is mostly junk, as is mainstream pretty much everything. Echoing Koolzip above, the good stuff is easily found when you dig a little.

[HughBeaumont]

38. I wouldn't know, I stopped listening to it after around 1993.

Became extremely tired of it's ubiquity and influence on every aspect of life. Not a single rap artist today measures up to what was released between 1977 and 1994. As it got worse and worse lyrically and musically, rap/hip hop became more widespread and pushed other forms of music out of the public eye completely. Music channels killed rock shows and even a whole rock channel in favor of it.

Yes, yes, like ANY form of music, you have to DIG for the good stuff. The problem is this - rap/hip hop is SO damned widespread, critically jizzed over and shoved down your throat . . . that I just don't WANT to hear ANY of it. It's not my dance anymore. It used to be a vibrant and creative medium, now it's become an faux-rage-addled excuse to say "Fuck" way too much (much like Quentin Tarantino and Coen Brothers movies, but that's another thread) that it's lost all of it's value with me, even for the good artists underground. I truly cannot stand ANY of it thanks to the music industry's incessant pushing of it over all other genres.

[Rabrrrrrr]

39. I think it fucking sucks and it's artless shit. And yes, I am serious.

[aclog]

40. Look out you're in for a raft of shit

from people who also think it sucks but don't want to admit :D

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. That's alright. It's just my opinion.

If people don't like it, they can attack all they want. :-)

and there probably are quite a few closeted rap-dislikers who feel that to dislike rap is somehow "racist", and so are afraid to critcize it.

[HughBeaumont]

64. See, I never understood the people who pull the "racist" card for this.

Like, because I hate a genre of music, I automatically hate a whole race of people??? That doesn't make much sense, does it?

[Rabrrrrrr]

65. Maybe I'll start calling Mozart and Bach haters RACISTS! from now on...

that should be interesting.

Especially when it's white people who don't like it. I can ask, "Why are you a race traitor?"

:rofl:

I really don't get it, either - I'm a racist if I don't like rap or hip-hop. But what if I like jazz and the blues (which I do)? Am I just a half-racist? patrial-racist? Or am I still a full-on racist because I only like "white" black music?

Am I, then, a race traitor for not liking brittney spears or N'Stink? Or does my love of Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd make up for that? Or am I just a sick anglo-phile for preferring those two British bands over music from the land of my ancestors, the Scorpions?

:shrug:

[HughBeaumont]

70. And what the hell are you if you hate a band like UB40?

That can get really confusing!

:spray:

[Rabrrrrrr]

71. Or Hootie and the Blowfish?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[no name no slogan]

43. JayZ has always sucked IMO

I've never understood the appeal. Just because you can put 29 people on stage, all with a mike, doesn't make you a rapper.

Steve Harvey had a hilarious bit in "The Original Kings of Comedy" about rap shows, and how he liked the "Old School" musicians better. I tend to agree with him on this one, although there are several rap artists I still listen to.

[flvegan]

53. Beastie Boys, Talib Kweli...pure genius if you ask me.

Say what one wants about "License to Ill" because in it's time, it showed a ton of talent. "Paul's Boutique" is still a masterpiece. When they went back to playing their own instruments, they infused everything from jazz to funk, hardcore to prayer chants from Tibetan monks.

Kweli is probably, IMO, the most underrated "mainstream" artist today.

Also, in my opinion, if it's heavy rotation on the radio/video station, 9.9 times out of 10 it sucks in a huge way.

[ContraBass Black]

55. I don't think Kweli's recent work was his best.

Reflection Eternal and Quality set me on fire. Beautiful struggle just brought me to my feet.

[Jokerman]

54. Why all the hate?

If you don't like a particular type of music, DON"T LISTEN TO IT!

[northzax]

61. 95% of all popular entertainment is contemporary hogwash

from every era. deal. And even the sublime doesn't neccesarily sing to everyone's heart, but when it does, you'll know it. Very little entertainment crosses the brain for more than an instant (how many movies,m tv shows or books have flown into one lobe and out the other without leaving a mark?)If you care to, you can find the good stuff (if you are willing to put the time and effort and money) to find what's worthwhile. If you don't care to, you will say "contemporary pop, film, TV, books, comics, hip-hop, gospel, country, metal, painting, sculpture, etc, sucks." We live in an information overload society where talent that would have once been small and regional goes national and global in an instant, the opportunity costs have decreased to the point where people can get heard who perhaps wouldn't have deserved it 25 years ago. While the risk of mass promotion has increased over time, where taking risks on the grand scale is almost impossible for all but the truely popular elite. It's why U2 keeps winning awards, they have earned the right in the public eye, to innovate somewhat, while still paying tribute to their past. People are more comfortable with that, you don't have to put any real effort into appreciating U2, although you certainly can, if you want to. There is art in creating for the masses, and recognizing that brilliance, while also the less popular is difficult to reconcile much of the time.

But the best part? the greater the cacophony of the masses, the sweeter that one brilliant work is when it hits you between the eyes.

[Deja Q]

78. Bingo. It is therefore better to NOT go for the lowest common denominator

like how all the record labels do.

It dumbs everybody down in the process.

[northzax]

79. better artistically, perhaps

but the sole responsiblity of a publicly held record label is to make money, and that is best done by appealing to the highest number of people. too bad, really.

[Deja Q]

74. Rap used to be good, thanks to Queen Latifah and Public Enemy.

But once the "Hammer Revolt" took place (circa 1994), gangsta rap and other derivatives ruined it for good. While I can't blame the revolt, the content against Hammer (which was a little too cruel) was excessive, and Hammer did at least help the community in which he grew up in.

Hammer often only hyped up his name; his music is generally empty of anything - apart from how great he thinks he is. The music was also fun, but often empty - and often taken from other artists' original works (Rick James, The Thing Formerly Known As Prince, etc) with nothing new whatsoever added; "Pray" being one of the worst offenders, though the lyrics (while being too simplistic) were good.

QL and PE sing about awareness for causes. And particularly regarding PE, not about cop killing or raping of women!

QL and PE were talented; not just for the lyrics but for the music too. Multi-Layered and deep, how can one not like it? It was new, it was fresh.

And now the latest 'artists' seem watered down.