Is vegetarianism the advancement of human evolution?

[Taverner]

I am of the belief that rapid evolution has happened in terms of our ability to reason and process data. On that note, one might be able to argue that modifying our environment (like we have been known to do) to remove the need to survive off other animals flesh could be a stage of human advancement.

Think about it - no other species willed their diet to change, and went from carnivore to herbivore...

FTR: I am a carnivore, and have no plans of becoming a vegetarian.

[Orsino]

1. I don't think it's an evolutionary step...

...just a moral decision that civilization has made more viable. We are still made of hunter-gatherer genes, and when our technological society crumbles, we will go right back to scrounging for food, snagging meat when we can. In that world, vegetarianism would be a real luxury.

Now, give us a few tens of thousands of years of civilized life that culls the meat-eating population, and you'd have that evolutionary step.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

3. humans are like bears or racoons, oportunistic omnivores

Societal evolution does not keep up with technological evolution, but vegetarianism seems a good step to change society to be able to deal with technological evolution. FTR: I am an opportunistic omnivore.

[leftofthedial]

4. all evidence points to DEvolution

Are we not me?

[Ravenseye]

10. No

We are DEVO.

[ashling]

5. I am an OMNIvore myself

[Sullivan4Congress]

6. An omniverous cat?

You or the cat?

Actually, I once had a calico short hair with a marked fondness for canteloupe and honeydew melon, so I guess it could be the cat!

[ashling]

14. Actually, I ran out of vegetables ...

so I ate the cat :)


just kidding!

[mzteris]

66. Why not?

They eat cats and dogs in other countries. What's stopping you?

[Nikia]

7. As I said in the other thread, we are the most learning oriented species

We can learn that it is more environmetally friendly or healthy or nice to animals to be vegetarian. We can choose to make that choice with that information. We are also able to choose that because we can go to the grocery store or buy seeds to plant which enables us to get enough calories and nutrients from plants alone. We can also still choose not to be vegetarian.

[laheina]

19. A good observation.

I like to use this one with sex. As humans, we have the ability to make decisions and modify our behavior. We can choose to resist urges and, in other situations, obey them. That is the gift of humanity.

I'm sorry if I skewed your point pervie. ;)

[Katherine Brengle]

8. Yes, it is. n/t

[LeftyMom]

9. Reason is the adaptation

Veg*n diets are just a result of the application of that capacity for reason.

[supernova]

11. We will in the future

If we determine that eating other animals is nonsustainable, we will switch to vegetarianism.

It would certainly be an adaptation at that time. Whether or not it would be an advancement, only history would bear that out.

[Ravenseye]

12. Evolution? No. Culture? Maybe.

I'm primarily a vegetarian, but will have meat on occasion if we go out, etc. At home though i'm 100% veggie. My wife and daughter are 100% veggie. My daughter has actually never had any meat whatsoever. When she grows up she can choose what she wants to eat, and we won't judge her for it.

As far as people saying you can't get this or that without meat, it's just untrue. You have to be a little bit more concious about what you're eating, but especially if you're an Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian you'll have 0 problems or dietary neglects. Some of the best body building protein powders are made from Soy for cryin out loud.

I think it'll be growingly though more of a 'feast' meal type occasion, like it used to be. Most cultures didn't eat much meat. Maybe once a week at best, unless you were part of the elite. I think we'll head more in that direction. Soy and vegetarian meals most of the time with special meat meals here and there. It depends on many factors though. Population, environment and so on.

[TheBaldyMan]

13. like a lot of great apes we are omnivores

in the wild we'd be be almost exclusively vegetarian with the occassional meat supplement to our diet, unless living in an enviroment like the Artic where meat would be the staple.

btw where do inuit get vitamin C from ? Raw meat ?

[pokerfan]

49. You answered your own question - raw meat

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010119.html

[no name no slogan]

15. Hey, didn't you get the memo? Vegetarians are all militant, fur-hating,

chest-thumping elitist communist buttwipes.

:popcorn:

[datasuspect]

25. and a rather vociferously defensive bunch

joking.

[flvegan]

37. From your later posts, "joking" doesn't sound so much so.

I'm curious.

[datasuspect]

39. just say maybe

wherever i see this discussion (on the internet, real life, what have you) the meat eaters seem more or less live and let live (f you can excuse the pun made at the expense of food factory livestock), while vegans seem like they have a doctrinal axe to grind that transcends the mere nutritive aspect of their lifestyle choice.

[flvegan]

43. Yet you allude to various, unfounded health issues.

Certainly that's casting stones that are not only unfounded, but just damn incorrect, SIMPLY to prove your personal point. Oh, yes, but I have the doctrinal axe to grind.

Good one!

[datasuspect]

46. there isn't anything medically unfounded

about protein-deficient diets.

muscle tissue requires proteins. there are different kinds of proteins. some are better, some not so.

[pokerfan]

Specifically you need amino acids that constitute a complete protein

There are many protein-rich vegetarian foods. The problem is that vegetable protein sources, except for soy, are not complete proteins. However, this isn't really much of a problem since there are many veggie food combinations that do form a complete protein:

Rice or pasta with beans
Pita bread and hummus
Peanut butter on whole grain bread
Tortillas with refried beans
and many others.

[flvegan]

53. I'll stick with my protein deficiency.

I don't have problems with my muscle tissue. That said, I could argue on my own personal experience, that my protein is better.

That outta get a rise...

[mzteris]

67. How disingenuous of you

"there isn't anything medically unfounded about protein-deficient diets.

muscle tissue requires proteins. there are different kinds of proteins. some are better, some not so."

But there also ISN"T ANYTHING MEDICALLY UNFOUNDED about vegetarianism/veganism being a PROTEIN-SUFFICIENT diet!


When you say "some are better, some not so" - are you implying "meat protein" is somehow "better?"

How so? Upon what research are you basing this statement?

"Many years ago, nutritionists spoke of 'first class' and 'second class' protein. The first class protein was supposed to be supplied by eggs, meat and fish, while second class protein was provided by foods of plant origin. This concept is no longer current. The 8 amino acids you need can be supplied by any diet commonly encountered in Australia - omnivorous (all foods), lacto-vegetarian (vegetarian plus milk products), lacto-ovo-vegetarian (vegetarian plus milk products and eggs) or, with carefully-chosen combinations of plant foods, vegan (no foods of animal origin). "



Question: What do you think cows eat & how do they grow so large?

Hint: They're not eating steak!

[ThomCat]

58. I get teased for being a vegan by meat-eating co-workers

all the time. I've never commented on their meals. In my experience it's the meat eaters who get defensive.

But vegetarians are always labeled defensive whenever we stick up for ourselves.

[AlienGirl]

59. Here's how it goes: Meat-eater says veg*nism is unhealthy

Vegan explains the specifics of amount of protein needed in the diet. Meat-eater gets pissed because the veg*an is "militant" and "defensive."

To be a "good" veg*n one must put up with any amount of pseudoscience without coming back with facts, and must never EVER challenge a "People Eating Tasty Animals" joke.

Tucker

[ThomCat]

60. That's exactly right.

We don't get any protein. We don't get any calcium. We don't get any B Vitamines. But if we say anything and we're obviously healthy then we're militant.

And while they keep trying to harrass us into taking "just one little bite" of a burger they're accusing us of pushing our diet on them.

:grr: It's frustrating to be the ones getting bullied but then get accused of being the bullies.

[flvegan]

62. Those folks that are all about

you not getting enough protein? You send them my way. I got your back.

15 years? Wow. I'm pushing 6 now. You have ALL of my respect.

[flvegan]

61. Somebody just nailed it.

Wow.

[LeftyMom]

63. Yep, that seems to be how it's supposed to go.

Screw that I say.

"Meek vegans suffer." -Bob and Jenna over at VeganFreaks

[crispini]

65. The meat eaters are "live and let live?"

:rofl: You are apparently not reading / participating in the same discussions I am. It seems to me that an awful lot of meat-eaters are perpetually picking on the vegetarians for their choices. :shrug: And I'm an (occasional) meat-eater.

[texas1928]

16. nope

we were vegetarians before we figured out how to use tools and make fire. After that it was MEAT BABY!!!

[laheina]

21. That's funny.

Chimps eat their meat raw. Why would fire matter?

[flvegan]

23. OOOOHHHH!!!

I heard that one all the way over here.

Damn.

[Solon]

47. Exactly...

The first evidence for fire is actually from Homo Erectus or a little earlier, someone refresh my memory. They were the progeny species for which both Homo Sapiens, us, and Homo Neanderthalensis, or Neanderthals as they a popularly known, both have lineage with. These two species, us and Neanderthals are actually quite closely related, physically, but with a few key difference, one is that Neanderthals were STRONG, some estimates say that they were almost twice as strong as Homo Sapiens, and two, their brains were, on average, 10% larger than ours.

Now, the key difference between these two human species is actually where they evolved, rather than when, or how. Most species on the Homo Tree evolved from formerly tree dwelling primates that started moving out of shrinking forests, and moving onto savannahs and grasslands in Africa. Unfortunately for them these social creatures couldn't subsist exclusively on the berries and fruits of the forest, so they soon enough started scavenging the corpses of dead animals that were taken down by the Big Cats of the time Wolves, and others of that time period. The biggest reason why Humans use tools today is for the simple fact that the easiest way to get to the marrow of dead animals, a protein and calorie rich food, is to slam rocks onto the bones to break them apart. Hence the rise of Homo Habilis, "Handy Man" as this species is called. They used tools to both break apart bones, and made hand axes, another early tool, to cut what meat is left off of bones.

When Cooking was finally invented, it did two things, one is it made it easier and less energy intensive for Humans to digest meat, and also lessened the occurance of food poisoning. Now, depending on the habitats that humans lived in, they were soon separated into two species only, the two mentioned above. One reason as to how Neanderthals became so robust and with larger brains is that the warmer climate they were in meant they ate far more meat than Homo Sapiens did in Africa. The protien present in meat actually accelerated Human evolution to allow for larger brains and more cunning, including having group hunts with stragety, setting traps, making weapons for both the hunt and, eventually, war. By this time, Homo Sapiens, being a leaner species, were able to survive climate change better than Neanderthals, plus, there is some evidence, that Homo Sapiens were the more aggressive species, and possibly more adaptive. This lead to the extinction of Neanderthals.

Now, by this time, Homo Sapiens started having companion animals, usually wolves who were raised within their tribes, to aid in hunting, and for protection from other animals. This was the first domesticated animal, and it lead to more, especially when Humans found out how to plant crops and settled into permanent villages surrounding these crop plants. This lead to a great increase in the amount of grains consumed, and the rise of cities. However, grains, fruits, etc. couldn't replace the protein necessary to keep our brains and other organs functioning, unlike almost pure herbavors, were do not have specialized digestive systems. Soon enough this lead to human Civilization, and all the problems and benefits given thereof. Nowadays, I generally agree, some plant products can be substitutes for meat products, at least so far as protien is concerned. But then again, with today's distribution network, its actually possible to eat certain seasonal foods year round, but how long will an energy intensive diet like that last when Peak Oil becomes reality? Not to mention that certain foods are undigestable to certain people, I can't digest Corn, a staple crop in my area, I would really hate to rely on that as a primary diet if food distribution breaks down, oh well, the negatives of Monocultures.

[Redstone]

17. Probably. Leaves a lighter footprint on Mother Earth, doesn't it?

And you rarely see a fat vegetarian.

But for me, I dunno. Hard to envision life without the occasional Reuben.

Redstone

[flvegan]

18. Well, now, c'mon

there are a good number of fat vegetarians. Introducing tater tots to replace something else isn't healthy, either.

It IS a lighter footprint, though. However, a well made Reuben DOES taste good.

How you doin' tonight, sir?

[Redstone]

20. Doing reasonably well, and glad to hear you're not carrying a grudge

(how do you carry one of those things, anyway; does it have handles built in, or do you have to tuck it under one arm?) about me whacking up on PETA last night.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to their cause; we do (except in a few extraordinary circumstances) spend a TON of extra money to buy meat that's produced from humanely-raised animals. Although I don't feel that animals have any innate "rights," I do believe that if we're going to eat them, then we OWE them a decent life up until we provide the end to it.

However, no matter how much I like animals (which is a lot), I find it hard to be sympathetic with those PETA folks.

My reason for this is simple, and if you know any PETA people, you may want to pass along this advice (from a marketing professional) to them: You will NEVER get people to change what you consider to be undesirable behavior by telling them that they're assholes for having that behavior. And you HAVE to admit, that's what PETA does. It's not a good tactic.

PETA would be able to carry out its stated mission MUCH more effectively if they didn't jump into people's faces and tell them that they're some kind of monsters for wanting to eat a hamburger. For example, that video they made of the redneck shitkickers stomping on the chickens would have been much more powerful, and much more widely seen, if the PETA people were not so widely regarded as a bunch of stuffed-shirt moralistic yentas. Know what I mean? I bet you do.

Ah, enough seriousness. I gotta get some sleep at one point or another.

See you around the Funny Farm.

Redstone

[flvegan]

22. It depends

on the size of the grudge. Some, I'm sure, need a forklift.

I know a lot of "PETA people" and have many friends that work directly for them. I consider myself a "PETA person" as well.

From a marketing professional, that I know you are, you must admit, they've done one hell of a job. They don't tell folks that they're assholes. They suggest an alternative to what you've stated to be a behavior.

Tell you what I'll do...I'll ask pals of mine to give me the hit counts on that "redneck shitkickers stomping on the chickens" and I'll let you know how widely seen it was. I mean, it DOES speak for itself, right?

Sleep well...

[Redstone]

24. You didn't understand what I said. I was trying to tell you that

you'll never make someone agree with you by being confrontational and abrasive, which you have to admit PETA does.

I'm trying to be helpful here. A simple phrase of two words: "Gentle Persuasion."

The trick, my friend, is to make people change their minds without them realizing that they've done it, and most importantly, what made them do it.

Read that sentence again. It's one of the most powerful marketing concepts you'll ever encounter. No bullshit. No hype. Just truth.

You think about that sentence above. If Tom Peters or one of those clowns had written that sentence, they'd be charging you five thousand bucks for every time you used it. But since I was the one who first elucidated that marketing precept, you're free to repeat it to the people who could benefit from it, and I hope you do.

(Just do me a favor and attribute it as "Redstone's Rule of Successful Marketing," OK?)

Redstone

[flvegan]

27. Sounds good, but

I certainly won't discount PETA's ability to draw 750,000 folks to support her, bad marketing or not.

[Dangerously Amused]

29. Redstone, not ALL of what PETA does is "in your face" stuff.

That's just what gets the most media attention. They DO do a lot of the"gentle persuasion" of which you speak. What is nice about PETA as an organization is that it is basically a smorgasboard of activism oportunities. Want to get in someone's face about eating meat? PETA will help. Rather go down to NOLA and help homeless animals? PETA's there, too, quietly saving lives without a camera in sight. Letter writing campaigns, food exhibits, lobbying, distributing thoughtful literature, whatever.

And it's not always that PETA is trying to change someone's mind with the overt stuff. If a person is undecided re: a PETA issue, PETA may help them make a decision without ever "changing their mind." I think that is their goal more than changing a diehard opponent's mind in the first place. Get the info out there BEFORE people form conclusions based on what the beef and dairy industries tell them to think.

I think you do not know enough about the organization to make such generalizations.

[Throd]

26. Nah, critters are tasty.

Ain't gonna happen on my watch.

[flvegan]

28. What a great friggin post.

Cuz that just really sums it up.

Wait...let me repeat it...

"critters are tasty"

Holy shit, but that IS insightful. To think that was kept in for however long. Amazing.

[LeftyMom]

30. You found that crazy persuasive, too?

Fuck this shit, I'm going to In and Out and getting a Double Double. You want one? ;)

[flvegan]

31. Can I get bacon on mine?

From what I understand, I need to eat animals to be muscular.

Better make that a Triple Double, please.

Thanks.

[LeftyMom]

32. Diet soda too, I assume?

:D

[Throd]

33. Four X Four, Animal Style

...and while you're at it, could ya run it through the deep fryer?

[datasuspect]

35. fuck that, get the 64 oz chicken fried steak

smothered in animal fat gravy with a side of mashed potatoes with extra bacon bits and nice glass of pork fat.

and smother it all in cow factory milk based cheese.

[flvegan]

36. Nah, I'd rather live to get that kick ass parking space

that'll vacate when the one that does partake in this, sadly, passes on, as that person didn't know better (or didn't care).

[datasuspect]

40. shit, everyone dies

no matter what you eat.

as far as parking spaces go, i don't drive and have never personally owned a motor vehicle.

i think of that as my own small contribution to the earth's health.

i'm sure it makes up for some of the cow farts i might have inadvertently been responsible for by purchasing beef.

[LeftyMom]

42. Actually, it doesn't. (Not my opinion, it was in the Guardian.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=187510

[datasuspect]

50. well, i'm not gonna lose any sleep about cow farts

this is the heart of absurdity and great fun.


good night dear fellow du'er.

[no name no slogan]

34. make it a triple triple, and get the myocardial infarction for free

:D

[WindRavenX]

38. Being a vegetarian is, perhaps, more ethical in today's world

Considering that it's energetically "wasteful" to eat a diet with a large amount of meat when it could be used to produce more plant matter for more consumption, I would say it's less a question of evolution and more of a question of ethics.

Biologically speaking, and I speak as a biologist with a concentration in mammalian evolution, we evolved from and as omnivores. But today, diets with a moderate-excessive amount of meat is both unethical (IMO) and unneeded for survival.

It is damaging to the planet to support meat-heavy diets, and I find it hard to eat meat anymore when I realize that the amount of resources that went into my chicken could have fed many, many more people for less of a cost to the environment, and the absence of a suffering chicken.

[datasuspect]

41. how ethical is driving a car?

isn't there some actual human blood going into that gasoline purchase?

what about buying manufactured clothing?

the trains that bring that stuff to market consume lots of diesel fuel. lots of people are dying RIGHT NOW for those petrochemicals.

how does one reconcile that?

not trying to be argumentative for argument's sake, but unless you live in the woods and live strictly off the land and produce your own supplies, there is a blood trail involved with practically every aspect of modern life.

and none of that is ethical is it?

[WindRavenX]

44. Of course none of it is ethical

Which is why you try to minimize these things, as they reduce human suffering somewhere.
Just as reducing your meat consumption reduces suffering of both animals AND people. You can never abolish and rid it all, but by moving to minimize the negative impact of your existance, I think that in itself is living an ethical life.

[flvegan]

45. Yawn! Strawman. At least, at least it's a good one.

Your blood trail, as you suggest (though you do appear to be argumentative for that very sake) could be much lessened by not giving in to want, ego, as far as diet is concerned.

[datasuspect]

48. notice i how i haven't characterized any of this about you personally

hmmm.

that's okay though, and this kind of shit is actually pretty old.

nothing is new.

[no name no slogan]

51. As an omnivore, I am very conscious of my food choices

I belong to a food co-op, and purchase all my meat and dairy from there. Why? Because I know that it comes from small (mostly local) farms where the animals are raised as humanely as possible and that the farmers are fairly compensated for their efforts. I don't eat a lot of meat (maybe one meal every other day) and have been a lacto-ovo vegetarian in the past, yet I am still quite aware of where my food comes from. When I was married, we got all our meat from my ex-in-laws, who were family farmers, and knew the pedigree of EVERY animal we ate for food.

I think everybody has an obligation to make smart decisions regarding their diets, whether they are vegetarians, vegans or omnivores. It's important to support non-corporate and non-exploitive farmers where possible, and the best way to do so is with our food choices. Just as there are unhealthy factory hog farms, there are factory vegetable farms that mistreat their workers and are unethical to their customers, too.

IMHO it's more about scale and knowing what's in your food and knowing its impact on the planet, as well as your diet. Granted, a vegetarian diet is more efficient in terms of plant resources, but at the same time how much sense does it make to buy produce from a farm that was carved out of the desert and is watered by environmentally destructive dams?

[WindRavenX]

52. extremely well said:

IMHO it's more about scale and knowing what's in your food and knowing its impact on the planet, as well as your diet. Granted, a vegetarian diet is more efficient in terms of plant resources, but at the same time how much sense does it make to buy produce from a farm that was carved out of the desert and is watered by environmentally destructive dams?

:yourock:

[no name no slogan]

55. thanks!

and the funny thing is, it's very easy to be informed about this kind of stuff nowdays. There's information everywhere, and almost any decent-sized town has either a co-op or a Whole Foods these days.

Back in the late 80s/early 90s when I was a college kid, my small town of 8,000 had a very good co-op. It was there that I first learned about the politics of food and tried vegetarianism. The vegetarianism comes and goes, but I've never forgotten the food lessons.

:D

[WindRavenX]

57. It is and it isn't

Many people do not know where their meat comes from, nor do they have any inkling of the gross environmental impact it takes to raise the meat for western world consumption...

Although I do think more people are aware of their food than in the past--the key is to keep educating people and working towards more humane and efficient food sources :hi:

(ps I'm a college kid-- and it isn't easy to eat right. I rarely do. But when I do have money, I am a veggie)

[flvegan]

54. Well stated.

Cheers.

[no name no slogan]

56. right back at you!

like the cheezy Saturday morning cartoons say, "knowledge is power". :hi:

[billyskank]

64. No, it's a choice, and

the vegetarianism/PETA/whatever flamewars are getting fucking tiring. Give it a rest, please.

[mzteris]

68. How much water does it take to . . .

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/sc1.html

[Radical Activist]

69. It might become essential if we aren't going to destroy the planet.

It takes far less resources to eat vegetarian, especially given the practices of the modern meat industry. More people eating vegetarian is probably the easiest and most effective way to ensure we can support the number of people living on the earth now and in the future.