Was Kurt Cobain a really good guitar player?

[idgiehkt]

I came across this old Rolling Stone list (from 2003) just now
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5937559/the_100_greatest_guitarists_of_all_time

I love Nirvana, and I revere Kurt as a person. He's #12, ahead of #15 Carlos Santana and #27 Mark Knopfler. Tom Morrello is #26, Kim Thayil is all the way at the end at #100. Pete Townshend is #50. Eddie Van Halen is #70. Educate me.

:wtf:

[datasuspect]

1. i don't think he was especially technically proficient

actually, i never could stand "Nirvarna" (as beavis and butthead called it).

[billyskank]

2. Probably has nothing to do with actually being good at the guitar

:shrug:

[CBGLuthier]

3. no, not at all

But he was a good composer and as such played notes worth hearing.

Similar to, but not exactly like Neil Young. NY can play a one repeating note solo and make you see into his fiery soul.

It's all about heart which is why Edward Van Halen is my least favorite guitarist. He has no heart or soul as far as I can hear.

[billyskank]

5. In that case

I believe they answered a slightly different question to the one they asked.

[idgiehkt]

7. I can see where you are coming from on that

I always felt like I should look away when Eddie was playing...pure wank. Apologies to any Van Halen fans. He did look good while he was doing it though.

[mduffy31]

4. I don't think he was that good a guitar player

But he was a good musician, the stuff he wrote changed music.

[idgiehkt]

8. yeah, there's no question they had a unique sound and

vision. I find it very dark now and pretty hard to listen to, except for the Nirvana Unplugged CD which is my favorite. It's no wonder to me now that Kurt ended his life, there was really nowhere to go. It's really special what they did, but I don't see his musicianship as the definining factor in his fame or significance.

[mduffy31]

10. I hate the fact that he felt like he had to end his life

...There is no way to say this right.....so never mind.

[ComerPerro]

6. not nearly that good

problem with that list, though, is that it combines several types of guitar playing

[bif]

9. I don't think he was a good anything.

Always hated that band

[datasuspect]

12. he was good at shotguns

[bbernardini]

11. Not a great guitar player, but a spectacular songwriter.

I can only play rhythm guitar, and I can probably play as well as he could. But damn, those guitar riffs and songs are pure genius.

[idgiehkt]

13. okay

that's kind of what I mean. I don't play so I kind of wanted to know what his strengths were. I don't think he should be that a far up, but they had something in mind putting him on that list to begin with.

[tigereye]

14. that list blows

IMO

[datasuspect]

17. the list should say: 100 best commercially accesible guitarists

[idgiehkt]

21. that I can see

there would be a few more women on there otherwise.

[ms liberty]

15. No, he wasn't...

Let's get real. They've got him ahead of Jeff Beck, Carlos Santana, and Eddie Van Halen...in addition to many other guitarists who are much better. For instance I didn't see Steve Hackett on that list at all. The list is ostensibly of the Greatest 100 Guitarists of All Time, not most influential bands, or great songwriters. I also have questions about how influential their music actually was, and how much is simply perceived influence due to his untimely death.

[Avalux]

16. He was original; innovative; riffs were unique

Had nothing to do with his technical ability; in fact, his style was rather simple. Kurt Cobain was one-of-a-kind as evidenced by the front men who have tried to emulate him since, and that's probably what rates him so high.

[mark414]

18. any list that rolling stone puts together usually sucks terribly

[Telly Savalas]

56. No doubt.

Wes Montgomery didn't break the top 100?

I remember seeing a 100 greatest albums list by them, and found it very curious that not a single album on the list had lyrics in a language other than English.

Rolling Stone writers need to get out a little more.

[SteppingRazor]

19. I don't know if he should be ahead of all those people, but...

Cobain had a great ear for fills. One of the best I've ever heard.

[idgiehkt]

20. please don't leave me hanging like that, lol

okay here's what wikipedia says:


In popular music, a 'fill' is a sound (or combination of sounds) which "fills" the brief time between lyrical phrases and lines of melody. From a musical arranger's perspective, a fill serves the dual purpose or sustaining the listener's attention during what would otherwise be a brief "dead time," and intensifying or beautifying the principal melody. A fill may be played by any instrument, from percussion to flute, and may, as in certain types of blues, even be sung. Each type of popular music (such as country, swing, etc.) has its own acceptable types of fill, which would generally sound badly misplaced in music of a different genre (such as hip-hop).

The ability to improvise new and interesting fills often distinguishes an instrumentalist with arranging talent from one lacking in such talent. Certain musicians and groups pride themselves at improvising new fills each time a song is played. For example, the blues guitarist Eric Clapton rarely plays the same fill twice, notwithstanding the overwhelming musicality of his recorded guitar fills. The now-deceased Duane Allman of the Allman Brothers was likewise known for his creation of new fills during every live performance.

Other groups, consisting mainly of songwriters, notably, The Eagles, masterfully write and record fills that they then consider to be integral to the song. Such groups therefore play fills identically (or nearly so) each time a song is played. A live Eagles performance of songs such as "Hotel California," "Victim of Love," "Life in the Fast Lane, and "Peaceful Easy Feeling," will contain virtually the same fills as the original recording.

A fill should be distinguished from a "lead," which is a passage of at least several measures in which a musical instrument becomes a musical and auditory substitute for the singer or, in the case of purely instrumental music, for the principal melody instrument. Like fills, leads can either be played the same way every time, such as Carlos Santana's guitar lead in "Smooth," or improvised each time, such as Eric Clapton's lead in "Crossroads" (recorded with "Cream.")

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fill_%28music%29"

[bif]

22. What a piece of shit list.

[idgiehkt]

23. what are your top ten?

curious...like, why is Duane Allman #2?

[bif]

29. First of all

All top ten positions would be filled by flamenco guitarists. They can play circles out of just about anyone on that list. However, If I was choosing from the players on that list, Here goes:1. John McLlaughlin 2. Danny Gatton 3. Frank Zappa 4. Jeff Beck 5. John Fahey 6. Steve Howe 7. Ry Cooder 8. Derek Trucks 9. Robert Randolf 10. Hendrix Pretty much in that order, although I know, Hendrix should probably be higher but I already filled it out.

I don't see Leo Kottke, Paco DeLucia, or Al Demeiola on there. Plus several other great guitarists are missing. And Chuck Berry #6?

[idgiehkt]

31. I wondered about that too

(Chuck Berry) but I don't know enough about it to make a judgement.

[bif]

37. Plus they left off

Robert Fripp, Adrian Legg, not to mention classical guitarists like Segovia and Christopher Parkening, etc.

[hfojvt]

67. what about Phil Keaggy?

Didn't Hendrix once say that Phil was better than him? Or was he being a smarta$$?

[unsavedtrash]

24. I question a huge part of the list.

Where the hell was Nancy Wilson? :shrug:

[idgiehkt]

27. I luvvvvv you for saying that.

Joan Jett is on there...I thought Joan was not much more than a rhythm player. They probably said we have to put some chic on here or else. Nancy can really throw down on acoustic, but she didn't get much chance to do it in Heart.

Here is a video with the intro to Crazy on You, she messes up a couple of times and adds some bluesy stuff in right before the end that doesn't really work (imho) but it's basically the same tune as on the album:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ie-2v-4XKo

[HughBeaumont]

25. Not especially.

He wasn't at all a proficient player. Sloppy as hell live. I don't think he was spectacularly innovative either. Most of what he wrote was ripped from any one of three bands: Husker Du, The Melvins or The Pixies.

I view Nirvana as more of a "right place, right time" act with a troubled boyish frontman that kids could relate to than musical innovators in the same breath as The Mothers of Invention, The Beatles, Husker Du or The Jimi Hendrix Experience.

[ghostsofgiants]

32. To be fair, "Come As you Are" wasn't ripped from either of those bands...

It was ripped from The Killing Joke. :P

[HughBeaumont]

35. Livin in the Aightees!

Disgusting. How utterly blatant was that? Did NO one watch Weird Science?

:)

[HughBeaumont]

26. And that's the shittiest list ever. RS is a joke.

Jack White at 17. Yeah. THAT makes sense.

Heroin Frusciante at 18. Yeah. THAT makes sense.

Talk about desperately wanting to not seem like old farts.

[idgiehkt]

30. wow.

I hadnt' thought of that possibility, but I can certainly see how you would come to the conclusion that they wanted to seem 'current' or whatever.

[HughBeaumont]

34. Total "issue selling" move.

I don't think even they believe those two guitarists have more musical and technical worth than Pete Townshend, Eddie Van Halen or Tony Iommi (at 86. Yeah, his band and Blue Cheer only STARTED metal. But the White Stripes are FAR more important). They wanted to seem relevant and not completely favoring boomer heroes.

[ghostsofgiants]

33. Have you heard Frusciante play lately?

Dude is fucking good. Should he be #18? I don't know, but he's definitely a damn fine guitarist.

[Dukkha]

46. Jack White? Give me a fucking break.

White Stripes are a very boring one-trick pony that needs to be taken out and shot already.

[idgiehkt]

48. he just about ruined "Wayfaring Stranger" for me

and that's hard to do.

[HughBeaumont]

49. I NEVER got the whole White Hypes beatoff.

Non-catchy music, very untalented ornament for a drummer, crap garage with desperate experimentation . . . No.

[idgiehkt]

50. they are kind of like 'anti-grunge/metal' or whatever

the sound is so sparse that it gets your attention.

I really like the song "7 Nation Army". But Jack White is a legend in his own mind. He didn't have the balls to sing "Jolene" the way it should have been sung as a cover, which was really weird. I really haven't liked his work with Loretta Lynn either, even though I think they've won some awards.

[RetroLounge]

28. I'm sorry but Cobain was neither a good guitarist

or singer.

Talented? Yes, he write catchy, yet derivative riffs, good songs, and rode the grunge media-hype to it's pinnacle.

Original? Yeah, if the first music you bought was on a CD instead of a Vinyl Album...

He was a sick, drug addicted, selfish, asshole who left his daughter fatherless.

If i heard him whine one more time about being famous and the media calling him the voice of a generation, i thought I would puke.

His music sounds dated now, somehow, except for Bleach, which I still think was their best album.

RL

[idgiehkt]

36. he had a lot of good qualities

he was liberal, pro-choice, feminist, pro gay-rights and he spoke pretty openly about how much he hated leanings of the heavy metal tradition that came directly before grunge, whose main artists were hedonistic, misogynist, and sometimes openly racist and openly anti-gay (mainly Axl Rose). In fact, grunge pretty much erased that music from the mainstream so they deserve credit for that if nothing else. He was sick, as in ill; he had a lot of chronic health problems that he apparently couldn't get treatment for. (That is the media version, I would say that he probably would have had more success with treatment for his digestive tract problems if he had stayed clean and sober; with all those millions surely a doctor somewhere could treat him).

I've seen the movie "Kurt and Courtney" and I have to admit it made me more than a little uncomfortable. I'm a bigger fan of her than him, because I think Hole and several female bands back then made a significant contribution to the cultural collective consciousness that has since been reburied, and for a lot longer, but I don't rule anything out when it comes to the circumstances of his death, especially with that "Il Duce" guy turning up dead just a little while after saying on film that she had offered him $50,000 to kill Kurt. Anything is possible, really.

[Gatchaman]

62. THANK YOU!!!

Cobain and Nirvana did more to destroy good music than disco and Lawrence Welk combined.

[LoZoccolo]

38. None of those other guitarists could sing and play at the same time.

Kurt Cobain was one of the only ones who could do both.

Score one for Nirvana.

[idgiehkt]

39. cool

good point.

[CBGLuthier]

42. Uhhm, a lot of them sang and played at the same time

Chuck Berry
Jimi Hendrix
Eric Clapton
Frank Zappa


Hell even Bob Dylan could sing and play at the same time.

Don;t misunderstand me I am a Nirvana fan but that particular criteria doesn;t quite work.

[RedStateShame]

53. Don't forget B.B. King.

[anarch]

40. I don't know...that list is totally screwy

and it doesn't even have Skip James on it. Must have been some kind of popular vote or something.


If the criteria to be on the list included "selling shitloads of records and being a household name" as one of the primary metrics, then yeah, he probably deserves to be right up there near the top.

[SacredCow]

41. That list is complete and utter BS....

Had it been commercially marketable guitarists (as suggested earlier) it wouldn't bother me so much but it would also have to be time-weighted towards current years to include the likes of some (not mentioning any names- I've no desire to be flamed today). But a list of 100 "greatest" guitarists without Wes Montgomery is just wrong.

[Drum]

54. from the rankings listed in the OP

I'd have to completely agree with you.

[enigmatic]

43. No

Somebody asked Lennon one time about his guitar playing, and he said,

"I'm not very good technically, but I can make it howl and move"

That applies to Cobain, too...

[johnnie]

44. Yes

I don't know what people use to calibrate a good guitar player, but in my opinion Cobain was a lot better than he gets credit for. He was a phenomenal rhythm player while singing and that isn't as easy as some people think. It is one thing to play chords as you sing, it is another to play with feeling and rhythm while singing and Cobain was great at it.

I personally am sick of guitar players..lol. I mean, I have heard a lot in my day and some are good for other reasons that others aren't. Some people like the "million notes a second" players, while other people like players that play jazz and any other guitarists don't matter. Or like Stevie Ray Vaughn, why do so many people like him as a guitar player so much? In my opinion he was OK, but not even close to being one of the best. He improvised a few blues licks and did it fast sometimes. :shrug:

Cobain was really good at what he played. I wasn't too impressed with him as a guitar player until a few years after they hit the "big time" and one day I listened to him play rather than him whining about how life sucks and realized that the cat could actually play.

Being a "guitarist" myself, I tend to listen to a guitar player with my own "guitar ears" rather than technique and speed. I suck at playing, but I know what I like and I know who is good in my book. I've worked on hundreds of sessions and many of the bands had their "guitar god" with them and they would expect me to be "blown away" by them all..lol. If I can feel your playing you are good, if you are trying to blow my hair into place with speed and book smarts, I'm not usually impressed.

There is my answer..LOL

[idgiehkt]

47. thank you.

I know his playing had heart, I wasn't questioning that. I've heard a lot of musician friends gripe about him and say stuff like 'the dude only knew three chords, wtf', or whatever. Plus some people don't like dark dissonant music (or dark, dissonant) people, so they turn themselves off to it from the beginning. I prefer the dark stuff to commercial music plus I really loved who Cobain was as a person. He never struck me as whiny, neither did Eddie Vedder, but maybe that's 'cause I was whiny, too or something. :shrug: Yeah, soul-less but technically good playing never did much for me, I was never really a Van Halen fan for that reason.

[Dukkha]

45. he was like Syd Barret

who incidentally learned his guitar licks from David Gilmour in school. Not very skilled but was a brilliant songwriter. This is often the case of musicians who are not very skilled on their instrument so they compensate through writing & production. They also tend to be more experimental and innovative since they aren't as confined to school taught music theory like may virtuosos tend to be.

[Dukkha]

51. I can seriously outplay a lot of these hacks!

RS is pathetic! to try and do a list and rate true greats on the bottom and not EVEN mention:

Joe Satriani
Steve Vai
Prince
Joe Pass
Steve Hackett
Tom Scholtz
Yngwie Malmsteen

I'm most reeling over David Gilmour who should be #2!

[RedStateShame]

52. Angus Young, Yngwie Malmsteen

Who was the better guitarist? Now, whose stuff would you rather listen to?


Kurt Cobain, and Nirvana overall, was the strong antiseptic rinse to remove the Nunu Bettencourt taste of rock music.

[idgiehkt]

55. I just thought of a woman who deserves to be on this list

Polly Jean Harvey. If Joan Jett is on there, then by God PJ should be. Not to mention her talent on other instruments.

[SacredCow]

61. My gosh, I hadn't even thought of the ladies not present....

Chrissie Hynde should definitely be on there, as should Nanci Griffith.

[idgiehkt]

65. I really like the

guitar on this song of PJ's called "Dry". This is live but on the CD it comes through both speakers, I think there are two tracks of it on there...it just puts me in a trance when I listen to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSUY3kUzBoY

the only reason I've mentioned the women I have is because Kurt is on this list. I hate to sound snarky, and like some should be included just by virtue of being able to play guitar, but hey. And where the fuck is Charo on here, also...

[idgiehkt]

66. and another thing

just on the basis of sheer innovation, Ani Difranco.

her 'fake nails and electrical tape' picking style she innovated...she makes herself a one-man band
she doesn't really do solos, just gets the full spectrum of sound out of one acoustic guitar.
swan dive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eftMFDEni20

edit, even better:

gravel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMfCcqc_SPg&mode=related&search=

[bridgit]

57. yes he was, excellent singer as well imo...

:hi:

[Nailzberg]

58. Good songwriter, but sucked as a guitarist.

That list must be pretty fucking bad. I am scared to read it. I supposed I should just to make sure they placed Randy Rhodes high enough for my liking.

[Nailzberg]

60. HOLY SHIITE! Randy Rhodes number 85??? WTF!!!!

He's a top twenty pick. What kind of fucking list has Jack White above Randy Rhodes?????

[Bassic]

64. It boggles the mins, I know.

It's just incredible.

[HughBeaumont]

69. What kind of list puts Jack White of more importance and influence

Than Pete Townshend and Tony Iommi?

The kind of list written by over-the-hill rock critics desperate to seem "in touch" and "with it", that's what. Much like RS itself; it's "discovering" bands that Alternative Press featured 2-3 years ago.

[MrSlayer]

59. No and he was a crappy songwriter too.

Popularity and dying young makes one a legend. Vastly overrated.

[Bassic]

63. No.

Definitely not. He was a good songwrtier, but not a good guitarist.

[skygazer]

68. Lists like this are stupid and mean nothing really

It's such an artificial and simplistic way of presenting information. On what parameters do they judge this? What standards are used to compile it? What does it really mean?

You can make a list of the 100 best selling albums or the 100 books that spent the longest time on the best seller lists but how can you determine with any real accuracy who would rank where on a list of best guitarists? Silly.