Tough love. (long rant)

[Shine]

I'm having a really hard time today. I've recently discoverd Shine Boy, my very smart 7th grader, is failing Honors Math. He's getting A's and B's in all his other classes and was actually getting a B in Math just 2 short wks ago, at the end of the trimester. Now they're in a new grading period and the grades are very fluid. One missed homework assignment or one bad test and it can make a huge difference, which is how his grade dropped so low, so fast.

I had a parent/teacher conference with his Math teacher the other afternoon and she explained that it's not a matter of him not getting the concepts of what they're learning. He totally gets them, but he is getthing lazy, not showing his work, not being neat enough, rushing through, not double-checking, stuff like that. She's been on his case about these things for most of the school year, he's resisted her admonishments and yet he's still managed to pull off a B grade. Now, however, the "chickens have come home to roost", as she put it. He failed the last math test, due to really stupid mistakes, and I was totally shocked to see the F grade, his very first. Plus, he's blown a couple of homework assignments, due to similar reasons. According to his teacher, it's "still early", so there's time for him to get his grade back up, assuming he really gets serious and starts doing what's necessary.

Yesterday, after school, he had the chance to re-take the test and I told him if he didn't get at least a B grade on it, he wouldn't get to go on the upcoming annual ski trip weekend next weekend with his Dad and his mens' group. That's a very special trip that he's been going on for years, so I figured it was major motivation for him to get his shit together. In my mind, I can't justify letting him skip a day or two of school and go off on a fun little vacation when he's failing out of Math. That would be rewarding bad behaviour, which makes no sense at all and would furthermore be dysfunctional, imo. He was nervous, knowing our deal, but he studied his failed test to get clear on what his silly mistakes had been and seemed confident, after he took it. I thought it was gonna be fine.

Well, this morning comes word that he got a C+ on his re-take, which means he CAN'T go on the ski trip with the men. Apparently, he made more stupid mistakes, which he could've easily caught if he'd been paying more attention. He is sooooo pissed off at me right now!!! He's pissed at himself, too, but mostly he's laying a major guilt trip on me that I "didn't give him enough warning" about the deal with the test, as if it's MY fault he failed and got to this point in math. :eyes: He says I'm "evil" for making this rule and that he should get ANY other consequence, but not this. Oh, and did I mention that he "forgot" to take in his math homework today from last night?! Now his grade is "up" to a D. Great. He's still not getting it and there's got to be some sort of lesson learned here, as difficult as it is to teach.

I'm staying firm, but it really sucks. This is the downside to tough love. :banghead: Believe me, I was just as disappointed and sad for him when he text messaged me his grade this morning. And, for the record, I am NOT one of those parents who believes their kid has to have straight A's all the time. Although Shine Boy, I'm proud to say, actually got straight A's one semester in 6th grade. I do, however, expect at least A's and B's, because I KNOW that's what he's capable of. He's a very smart kid, who is shooting himself in the foot by his recent behaviour. Don't we all want our kids to do their very best??? Ah, the trials and tribulations of Parenthood...

When have YOU had to show tough love? :shrug: It's sooo hard!! :(

[Ptah]

1. I think you're on the right track, Shine

Hang tough.

:hi:

[Shine]

6. Thanks, buddy.

it's pretty tough today. Next weekend is gonna be HELL, when Mr. Shine is off skiing and I'm stuck at home with an intensely pissed off kid. Can't wait...:eyes:

[Shell Beau]

2. That does sound tough, but it also shows that you are

a good parent. Maybe next time he will realize how serious you are. :hug:

[Shine]

7. Yeah, in fact today at lunch he told me he hadn't realized I was so serious

DUH!!!! :crazy:

I gotta follow through, as tough as it is. OTherwise, he's never gonna take me seriously.

[YDogg]

3. Hang in there. It'll get better.

Hope so, anyway. No easy answers, I have.

[Shine]

8. Thanks, YDogg

I hope it gets easier, too. In any case, I really just hope he learns his lesson from this experience.

[crim son]

4. You're doing the right thing, Shine.

My son is in eighth grade, and also in honors math. He was always a straight A student, taking accelerated math, science and english, and in his achievement tests he has never scored below the 96th percentile in anything. Imagine my surprise then, when during the first quarter of this year he got a B in math and a B- in science. Unheard of. I told him that if he didn't improve I'd take away ALL of his computer time. Well, the semester grade is in and he did WORSE. I think I know why: he's suddenly popular with the guys and girls are starting to hang around him... there's actually a "Juergen P. Fan Club" at his middle school right now. :eyes: Anyhow, even though I know what's going on, he's lost his computer privileges. All gone. I feel badly because he uses it not for games but for making movies and his own comic books etc. But what can you do? :shrug:

[Shine]

10. Yeah, that's what he was trying to negotiate with me on, too.

Today at lunch he was saying I was welcome to take away his cell phone, his computer time, his TV time...basically ANYthing, EXCEPT the ski trip...which he has been looking forward to for MONTHS. :(

It's rough b/c we set the consequence and now we absolutely HAVE to follow through, otherwise he won't take us seriously, in the future.

How else are they gonna get the we mean what we say? :shrugh: It totally sucks.

[crim son]

43. That is what's at stake.

And if your word doesn't mean anything now, then you're screwn when he's seventeen and decides to cross you. I'm usually pleasantly surprised by how my kids respond to being punished, even with something as dire as taking away a trip. They seem to appreciate the boundaries (though maybe not right away). :hug:

[BreweryYardRat]

26. You threatened to punish your kid over a B/B-?

That's charming. A B/B- is above average. Now, I can see threatening to punish him when his grades got worse at the end of the semester. But initially, I think you were expecting too much from the kid. Wouldn't you rather have a happy, well-adjusted kid who makes Bs than a miserable one who gets As?

[crim son]

42. I do understand your perspective. I have another son from

whom I'm pleased to get a B, but Juergen isn't your average kid... he has really try to not get an A. For that reason I would be doing him a disservice by ignoring his slide. Let me put it this way, before I told him that I was, indeed, going to suspend his computer privileges, I asked him whether he was having any difficulty with the material, or whether he had been slacking off. He replied, slacking off and I'll do better. And for what it's worth, he's not miserable!

[Kali]

5. One of those "hurts me more than it hurts you" moments.

It is tough. Good luck.

[Shine]

11. Yeah, that's exactly right. I also think of that line: "Cruel to be kind"

Ugh. It's a real bummer, gf. :(

My kid hates me right now.

[AlCzervik]

9. What you're doing will help him ultimately.

he may not appreciate that now but someday he will.

[Shine]

12. Thanks. I'll tell him you said that! heheheh.

he'll esp. LOVE hearing that today, of all days. :D

Maybe I'll wait a while on that.

He basically hates me right now. :(

[LynzM]

13. You are absolutely doing the right thing, my friend.

I watched my mom go through it with my brother... not grades, but helping around the house and respecting her as the parent. It only takes once or twice for kids to get it that you don't mean what you say, and to learn to push you around. My brother has more respect for me than for my mom, I think, sadly. I know the next few days are going to be really rough on you, but you're teaching your son a very important lesson - that you mean what you say, and also, in a strange kind of way, that you care enough to enforce things that aren't fun for either of you.

I hope that he gets his act together in the math class, and that you don't have as rough a time as you imagine. Think he'd go for some sort of Shine/Shine Boy outing, or is that waaaay too cornball?

Lots of hugs and patience coming your way... :hug: Feel free to rant anytime!

[Shine]

16. Thanks, LynzM

:hug:
Yeah, sadly, I think it's gonna take this crappy experience for him to get that we mean what we say. He's crying now, as I write this, and as he's talking on the phone with his dad. He was really really really looking forward to this trip. I feel shitty about this, but I've gotta hang tough. :(

[fishnfla]

14. Well, you might not like my reply

Let me just say: you sound like a great parent and a great mom, and your kids done alright before so here's my take:
1. It is Honors Math. Its supposed to be tough, a challenge. He's worked hard to get there. Whatever worked before will work again, IMO
2. All his other grades are good, and always have been.
3. He did raise the grade on the test. Perhaps your expectations are too high?
4. The kid's alright, well maybe because he always got to go on the ski trip with his pop. As a dad myself, sometimes these sort of events are more important than grades. Especially at this time of life. 7th grade is make or break. Was for this guy.

Here's what i would do, FWIW. But remember, I'm a softy dad:

Make him think he aint going on the trip 'til the very last moment, or a time of your choosing, then sit down with him, and the test, go over the mistakes one more time. Try and have a laugh about it, if you can, the stupid mistakes.

Then let him go on the trip with his dad.

I did this trick with our son and football. It worked. It still shows you care, in many ways.

[Shine]

17. Thanks for your perspective, fishnfla.

I'll consider it. I've been second-guessing myself all afternoon, but mostly I feel I'm doing the right thing.

I totally hear what you're saying about the importance of certain events, over school grades. I agree with you. The thing is, he gets to go camping in the summer with Mr Shine and his mens' group, too. So, they basically have two times per year that he gets to go off with the men and have a great time.

He'll have the summer trip to look forward to.

Plus, unbeknownst to him, Mr Shine is also planning a very special Rites of Passage ritual for him with all the men, too..

Bottom line, he gets lots of outside support, there will be plenty of other opportunities to be with the guys and he's gotta learn this hard lesson somehow.

Sigh...it sucks.

But hey, I'll mention what you said to Mr Shine and see what he thinks. This sucks. It's hard being a parent sometimes, isn't it?

[fishnfla]

20. Funny, loves a hard thing

and hatred seems so easy. bassackwards, it is.

Talk to MrShine, for sure. Maybe there is a stressor in the boys life: hormones, a girl, some peer thing, the teacher.

I'll tell you one thing: He's got a good Mom. Dont tear yourself asunder over this.

[Shine]

22. Awww...ya got me all teary.

thanks. :hug:

He doesn't have any other stressors, as far as I know. I think he's mostly just gotten lazy, pure and simple. LOL. He likes his math teacher, he respects her b/c she's so tough.

It's funny how toughness can inspire respect. I know, in my heart of hearts, that ShineBoy respects my being so tough on him, despite his complaints and claims of "hating" me.

Cruel to be kind....right? :hi:

[fishnfla]

44. I think kindness breeds kindness

I dont subscribe to the cruel to be kind theory.Not with children. I dont think kids can rationalize things that way,and the short term trade off always hedges
any long term benefit.

That was kinda the point of my posts.

Shine-after reading thru the replies here and your responses, I have to ask: is this more about your son, or yourself?

[seaglass]

15. I could never do it. I mean once I set the punishment I'd have

to stick with it but I don't know - a once a year trip to spend time with his dad lost due to a few points - that would be tough to stick with.

Do you wish you had picked a different punishment or do you think the punishment fits the crime?

Kudos to you for being able to stay strong.

[Shine]

18. Thanks. I knew it was a tough punishment and I was prepared to follow thru

but now that it's here, I'm having a tough time with it. Next w/e is gonna be HELL, when MrShine is off with the men and I'm stuck at home with a really pissed off kid.

The thing is, he gets to go camping with his Dad and the men in the summer time, so he's got that to look forward to. This isn't his only chance to be with them, in other words. He gets two times per year to do this sort of thing.

He got himself in this position and now he's gotta "pay the piper", as they say. It's really shitty. :(

[Scooter24]

19. I guess my reply depends on the relationship your son has with his father.

My story, I suppose, is rare.

My parents were always too busy for me when I was young. Not that they didn't love me, it was just that as a corporate lawyer and pediatric surgeon, they were constantly busy and the little free time they did get was spent among themselves. I grew up with a nanny until I started the 6th grade. It was then that my dad started to really bond with me, taking me out to sporting games, to the gym, and our annual ski trip to Switzerland with my brother. I was a straight A student throughout high school but I was far from the "perfect" kid. I did get my fair share of punishments, but never did those revolve around what little time I had to spend with my parents.

There are many ways to punish your son. But I'm always negative towards those methods which interferes with a son's chance at bonding with his father (or daughter/mother). But every situation and family is unique. So I wish you and your son the best and hope he get's his head in those books :)

Ultimately, if he doesn't improve his grades, do you believe it was worth it?

[Shine]

21. Despite his upset and disappointment, I believe it will be worth it

he will understand that we mean what we say and there are consequences for bad grades.

He also will understand his responsibility and role in this situation. He is NOT a victim here!

Fortunately, he has an excellent relationship with his Dad. Twice a year, he gets to go with Mr Shine and his mens' group up to the snow in the winter and out in the mountains camping for a week n the summer. His Dad is a VERY involved and conscientious father. In fact, unbeknownst to ShineBoy, Mr Shine is planning a special Rites of Passage ritual for him later this summer, with the men, since ShineBoy just turned 13 last November. The bottom line is, he's got a lot of support available to him and will continue to be made available to him in the future.

Yes, it sucks that we have to play hardball and keep him from this particular trip, but he will definitely have the summer trip to look forward to.

I actually believe because of this, he will get more serious about his math again. At least, here's hoping, anyway...:D

Thanks for your post, Scooter24! :hi:

[Scooter24]

30. Then I believe you are doing the right thing.

My situation was different, but I see where you are coming from :) There were many times I "hated" my parents. lol But in the end, all is fine. You could try cooking something he likes to sort of ease the transition though :hi:

I remember when I took calculus as a junior in high school, I was struggling with a B+ average. I knew the material, it was just hard to spot the mistakes. I had to have a tutor (a very nice student at a local college) come and help me for a month. I was making careless errors, but he was very helpful in helping me spot those mistakes.

I would recommend that you stay active in monitoring his grades and work. If he truly needs more help, it will be better to start earlier than later.

[Shine]

32. Thanks, friend.

:hug: yeah, "careless mistakes", that's what it's all about on our end. Exactly that.

And I will definitely be monitoring his progress in the future. You can count on that! :D

I like your idea of doing something special with him when Mr Shine and the men are all off next w/e. I'm thinking the same thing. I don't know yet what it'll be, but we'll do something...

[NNadir]

23. Take him out of honors math if a "C" bothers you..

A "C" is a passing grade.

When you are in seventh grade, the idea is not to be Evariste Galois. The idea is to love learning for itself.

There is, in my opinion, absolutely nothing worse, nothing, than transforming learning into punishment. Mathematics is about creativity and love and a kind of art. You yourself say that he "gets the concepts," so what, exactly, is the problem?

I know whence I speak. I've been there, done that.

Let me tell you something. "Tough love," as it is called, is over represented and, under the wrong circumstances can well be over used. I assure you that if you press ahead with demanding perfection from a seventh grader you risk finding out, at a much later date, the things on which "tough love" really calls.

My boy was offered advanced placement math. I looked at him, who he was and what he loved and his need for time and patience. I told the school, "No, thank you."

[Shine]

27. Well, I am hardly asking for "perfection" and he can do much better than a C.

He's actually getting a D in math right now, anyway. In fact, when I met with the teacher, I asked her, point blank, if she thought he should be pulled out of Honors Math, if it was over his head. She said absolutely NOT, he can still pull his grade up, if he gets with the program and changes his behaviour. Like I said, he gets the concepts, but what he doesn't get is the QUALITY of work required to be successful. He's slacking off on basic stuff, like neatness, showing his work, he rushes through and doesn't double-check, so he makes dumb mistakes. After many months of that, it's finally caught up to him.

I hear what you're saying about loving learning and wanting to foster that. He is a great student....when HE wants to be....and usually he wants to be, until lately, in Math. That's the bottom line, it has to be self-generated, but at the same time he has to understand there are consequences for what happens when he doesn't put the proper time and attention into something.

He's hardly a victim here. He is merely learning the painful lesson of responsibility. In my opinion, there's a distinction between being punished and being held accountable for one's behaviour. "Punishment" connotes something draconian, which this consequence certainly is not.

Thanks for offering your perspective, NNadir.

[NNadir]

40. For whom is he "showing his work?"

When I was a kid, I skipped a grade of mathematics.

It was an awful experience. Mostly, when the year went down, I got C's - if I was lucky. I was intimidated as hell, because basically my parents - who had everything to say about my grades - had no basic concept whatsoever what the subject matter was. It was already beyond them - and I was in the eighth grade. Of course, many people in my class had also skipped a grade. They intimidated me. I felt pretty damned inadequate to be perfectly honest.

Frankly, looking back at the deal, my teacher was a waste of space. He was boring, dull, and didn't give a crap if anyone learned mathematics or not. He was just showing up, "showing his work," if you will. He didn't even bother to approach the fact that mathematics is simply a particularly elegant and indeed, transcendental, way of describing the universe.

Let me tell you something. In my state in those days, every student was required - as his or her final - to take a statewide exam. After struggling to get C's and D's all year, I decided to learn the entire course in the last two weeks on my own. I aced that damn test. The reason? There was a new kid in town that I was trying to show up.

Here's what happened when I got the highest grade in my school on the final, which again, was a state wide exam. I was called into the office in front of the moron teacher who felt that having shined shoes was a far more important part of the math experience than incorporating rocketry (then a hot and sexy subject) into the description of conic sections. I was accused of cheating.

"Fine," I said. "Ask me a question, any question, about mathematics in this course. Sit here and glare at me while I work the problem out."

So they did. And I answered the questions correctly. You know what they asked me after I proved that I had not cheated? What was my problem? How come I didn't do that stuff all year long?

Imagine that. What was my problem?

If you're going to blow off this kid's ski trip - and I don't think you should - then you should be prepared to sit with him all weekend long and do math, one on one. Go to the library. Find lots of cool problems not covered in the textbook that are relevant to what he is doing in school. Have him as a participant. Explain that you want to understand, not the math, but him. Show your work. You sit with that boy, and you do math, together. You learn what he is learning and you learn how he learns. You make it a part of your life together.

If you do it right, he will never forget this weekend, and not because it was painful, but because it was beautiful.

There is a problem here and its not a problem in Newtonian mechanics about actions and reactions. In mathematics, and elsewhere, you cannot solve a problem until you have framed it correctly.

This is not my child, and it is not my business, except that you have posted it here. I have no right to press this, except I know how these things go and what they're about. Here is my advice: Show your work.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

24. My dear Shine.........

I think you're doing exactly the right thing, even though it's tough...

That's how I know it's right......it is tough!

Hang in there, sweetie......

Most kids have to take these hard lessons sooner or later.......

:hug:

[Shine]

28. Thanks, Peggy.

I know in my heart I'm doing the right thing, it just totally SUCKS right now. It's gonna be esp hard next w/e when the hubby's off skiing and I'm stuck at home with a pissed off kid. Oh, and did I mention we're also out $155, pre-deposit on the lodgings? :banghead:

Grrr.....

[Whoa_Nelly]

25. Tough Love is...well..Tough!

You're doing the right thing, Shine! :hug:

Sounds like the teen brain is kicking into high gear...or just one of it's (for lack of a better word) "spurts".

Maybe, once he's back in a more conversational mood...less PO'd than at the moment...you can ask him what he wants out of the class, how he's going to get it, and what (reasonable) reward at the end of the term he could get that's also discussed and OK'd by both Mom and Dad, and one that's not necessarily an item, but maybe more of a privilege to go somewhere, do some activity non-school related. And then have him write a contract to set his objective and goal.

Hang in there, Shine! :pals:

[Shine]

29. Thanks,darlin'. I really like your contract idea.

:thumbsup:

Excellent suggestion, thanks! :hug:

In my heart of hearts, I feel he will respect us more for hangin' tough on this one, as painful as it is right now.

He KNOWS it's because of HIS behaviour that we got to this point.

It still sucks, though. :(

[Whoa_Nelly]

31. It sucks now

But would suck even worse if you didn't follow through on your clearly stated expectations of him, as well as following through on the punishment he was told would occur (it would have been a reward had he done the follow-through and been neat, shown his work, not made the mistakes he knows he could have avoided, etc.)
And no need to be holding any "grrr" for the money out for his not being able to go on the trip. You guys chose to make that the punishment, so the money out is a non-issue
(just reminding you to pick your battles :hug: )

So, be tough now...and again when you have to...you're the mom. It definitely pays later for him in so many ways. Someday he will thank you...I know...My son has thanked me many times for being tough on him as a teen. :loveya:

[Shine]

35. I know, I haven't made an issue about the money for the very same reason

it was our decision to make that a consequence, so we have to deal with it. Oh well.

I actually see a distinction between "punishment" and "consequence". Punishment implies something draconian, and I don't think this is. He's simply being held accountable for his past actions. Hey, it's a valuable lesson we ALL need to learn sometimes.

:hug: Thanks for your support. We'll get through this tough time.....even though it does SUCK! :(

[Ptah]

33. You are sure getting some good help here tonight, Shine

:thumbsup:

[Shine]

36. Awwww....

:loveya:

Thanks, buddy. :hug: :pals: It's still hard, though.

[SOteric]

34. I'm not a parent. But I guess I'd be concerned, nonetheless

that such a rapid decline in attention and effort might be a sign of deeper trouble. Are you certain it's not a matter of his being bullied, bothered or molested by someone? Has he seen a doctor recently? Have you had his eyes checked?

[Shine]

38. Oh no, it's nothing like that. The reason it fell so fast is b/c it's the

beginning of the new trimester, when the grades are very "fluid". One missed homework assignment or one bad test can make a big difference in the grade. It'll even out as the weeks roll along.

In the meantime, I"m hoping he gets with the program and puts his nose back to the grindstone. He knows what's expected, but it's up to him to pull it off.

He can totally do it. He's done it before.

Thanks for your post, though. I appreciate your concern. :hug:

[MissMillie]

37. I am living with this right now, but on a much larger level.

My son barely graduated high school last year, mostly because he never did his homework.

He's as smart as they come, he even earned a scholarship for tuition to any state school for 4 years. He remembers just about everything he hears or reads.

This summer he inherited a lot of money. It's nearly gone. I begged him to contact a financial advisor, but he didn't, and now he has very little left (but he does have 2 (maybe 3) very expensive guitars that he does not know how to play!).

He applied to community college because his senior year was so terrible that he knew he wouldn't get accepted anywhere else. He had his scholarship to pay for his tuition. He had to pay fees and books. Then he just stopped going to class. He failed all of his courses and lost his scholarship.

He signed up for more courses this semester (4 classes, 2 days per week), but I found out that he skipped class today.

If he doesn't stay in school he will lose his SSI survivor benefits.

On top of all this slacking off, he completely ignores any requests I make of him to help around the house--this despite the fact that I have let his friend move in and that I do pretty much whatever they ask of me.

I'll be moving into my own apartment next weekend, because I cannot a) watch him make all these bad choices and b) allow myself to be used as a doormat any longer.

There's my tough love.

My son is about to become a train wreck, because he is so determined to do the opposite of what I suggest that he doesn't care that he's making a bad choice.

Of all the times I thought someone had broke my heart, this is 100 million times worse.

I can't control him. I can only control me--and I won't enable him in his self-destructive behavior any more.

[barb162]

39. I think you're doing the right thing.

You're a good parent

[XemaSab]

41. First, he's a teenager now, and teenagers rarely act in their best interests

Secondly, one bad grade in middle school isn't a big deal. It won't ruin his life.

That being said, you're right to set consequences for bad behavior. Good luck for the next 5 years. :D

[hedgehog]

45. It's bothersome that he's doing well in the other subjects but not this

one. Something seems off here, whether he just doesn't get along with the teacher or has to think through the math and runs out of time or something else. How many assignments is he getting? Just what is the grading process? Has the class started a new concept that he just doesn't get yet? Is he so overwhelmed by the work that he spends too much time on the first few problems and rushes through the rest?