Question for the women here

[noamnety]

Poll question: Question for the women here

How old were you when you started receiving adult male sexual attention? Meaning honking/hollering as they drove past, or sexual comments, rude gestures, propositions, stuff along those lines?

[momophile]

1. I put 16-18 because that's when I became aware of it

it may have started before then, I don't know.

[idgiehkt]

2. you might want to rule out predators

because mine starts really early if they aren't excluded.

[noamnety]

3. No, I want to leave them in.

We're having a debate in another thread about how normal it is, from a woman's perspective, to receive sexual attention from adults while they (the women) are still underage. Is it pretty much an accepted norm that girls live with, or is a rarity?

So unwanted attention (or worse) is definitely to be included in that.

[idgiehkt]

56. I grew up around a couple of predators

It goes as far back as I can remember.

[Cabcere]

4. My eighth-grade gym teacher

was a sick bastard...he never actually touched me or said anything overtly inappropriate, but he would make comments to/about me, and he was always staring at me...probably undressing me with his eyes, the freak. :puke: Of course, it seemed like he was the ONLY male that was paying attention to me at that point in my life, so I didn't ask him to stop or anything like I probably should have. I'd like to go back in time and kick my younger self...and maybe report him to the principal or something, because five years later my little brother had him and he was still talking about me...asking where I was going to school, stuff like that. It wouldn't have been that creepy if it had been anybody else...but I wouldn't have put it past this dude to stalk me. :scared: Anyway, the next year he left, so I guess he won't be ogling any other teenage girls at that school anymore. :puke:

[noamnety]

16. Wow. and Ewwww.

That's really disturbing that he was still talking about you years later.

Thank you, btw, for expressing how it made you feel - that was part of what I was trying to convey in the other thread, how it feels on the receiving end.

[Cabcere]

5. dupe

Dammit - what is up with my computer tonight?! :argh:

[sandnsea]

6. 13-14

I don't remember. Seems like it starts as soon as you get boobs, if you were lucky enough to avoid child molestation.

[murielm99]

7. Those things are ADULT??

Ya could have fooled me.

[noamnety]

8. Juvenile behavior FROM adults, if you prefer

Nobody said the adults were mature. :)

[Writer]

9. At 13...

my stepfather came onto me late at night when I was on the couch watching television. My mother was upstairs. That entire year was filled with unwarranted attention by males.

[noamnety]

18. That's incredibly disturbing

The thought of having to live in that situation after that turns my stomach.

[Writer]

22. He was not living with us at the time - my mother and him were separated.

I told my mother. I thought she confronted him, but she lied to me about doing so. She changed the locks, but turned around and gave him a key anyway because she wanted him over for sex. Almost ten years later, she claimed that I never told her it happened. My mother was far more disturbed.

[Bassic]

118. That's rather horrible from her... nt

[u4ic]

10. I'll just say

a bit younger than 10. :(



edit: I've seen that argument before in GD (not its most recent incarnation, it'll piss me off too much to have a look). It's a crock of shit. We're all responsible for our own actions; they're trying to justify crappy behaviour.

[SKKY]

103. That's just plain sick...

Now that I'm a bit older, I look at another girl and if she's younger than my younger sister (Who's 23), she's immediately flagged as being too young (Not that it means anything anyway because I'm very happily married). I suppose that's the mental check that a lot of these sick bastards don't have.

[u4ic]

119. A relative

and it wasn't a one time thing, it continued. I'd rather not go into the details.

Even to this day, on the rare occasion that I see him, I'm still getting eyed up.

Sick bastard, for sure.

[SKKY]

124. I'm so sorry...

...And it always seems to be a relative, which is even more disgusting.

[u4ic]

127. Thank you...

as an adult, I don't have to put up with that bullsh*t anymore. And I don't.

[LadyoftheRabbits]

11. Well... I don't really know...

I noticed freshman year of H.S. when some guy working doing roadwork with a crew asked to massage my feet as I was walking to a friend's house. It got me really upset and angry because the catcalls wouldn't stop. :grr: :(

[GoddessOfGuinness]

12. Sickos abounded when I was a kid.

There was a neighbor a few houses down from ours who would stare at my developing chest and offer to "swing me on the swings sometime". :puke: Fortunately, I wasn't stupid, and I was never in a situation where I was alone with him.

Unfortunately, I never felt I could talk with my parents about it. :-(

[Hosnon]

13. About that ubiquitous male stare...

I just read the exchange in the now-locked thread and so I didn't get a chance to respond.

I'm a 24 year old male and I figured that out early in college. I was somewhere (I think at the gym) and saw a gorgeous girl walk by. Of course, I checked her out. Then I turned to my roommate and said:

"Man, I think I check out every attractive female I come across." He, of course, agreed and then I said:

"Every man she walks by checks her out...and that probably means she gets checked out about a hundred times a day...basically non-stop."

Women, particularly those on the more attractive end of the spectrum, deal with an entirely different aspect of life than men do. As for a "vice versa" effect with men, I think the standard of beauty is lower for women. In other words, out of 100 women, the average man will be attracted to 75. Out of 100 men, the average woman will be attracted to 25. It's in the genes...we "hunt".

As GaYellowDawg pointed out, the reflexive glances are here to stay and there can be nothing done about them. It's the stare that should be checked by conscientious men.

[noamnety]

15. Thanks for posting that.

I had a big long thing that I took too long too type, and when I went to post *poof* the thread was locked. :cry:

I was trying to post this: http://www.uvm.edu/~tstreete/powerpose/malegaze.html

It's an interesting set of images and commentary to browse around.

[u4ic]

20. Thank you, the link looks very interesting indeed

:hi:

[Hosnon]

42. Interesting photos...quite creepy. NT.

[u4ic]

19. The 'hunt' mentality

is what I have a problem with. It implies hunter vs hunted/prey; strong vs the weak; dominance/submission and inequality. It implies that only the hunter will get any 'satisfaction', or can freely express their sexuality, due to the dominance issue. The prey doesn't.

Initiating sexual contact is one thing; 'hunting' is another. The former implies consent from the other party, the latter doesn't. Totally different mentality.

The idea of male hunting females also diminishes female sexuality, which is incredibly powerful, and initiating, in itself. The latter has been ignored far too long, due to religious, social and cultural factors.


I will point out the glance, or checking out a woman, is a much different story than propositioning someone who's clearly underage, or some of the other behaviours in the OP.

[ForrestGump]

26. The 'hunt' thing, when I've heard it, always jarred with me, too

And I'm supposedly a 'hunter.'

Any men who want to label that way can count me out.

[Hosnon]

39. You'll find no disagreement here.

Hence the quotations around the word. It wasn't meant to be a justification of the ubiquitous male stare but merely an explanation of why men tend to be attracted to more women than vice versa.

However, I do believe that our evolution justifies the brief glance. It is the prolonged stare that men need to acknowledge as threatening, improper, etc.

[Skittles]

28. please stop with that hunt bullshit

most men I know hunt for nothing more than the g.d. remote

[northofdenali]

30. Skittles, is this not the most ridiculous piece of shit thread

we ever went through together? Or was that the kudzu?

Hell, maybe Oscar...........

:loveya:

[Skittles]

32. I just get tired of men justifying their behaviour back to caveman days

who knows how we gals would behave if we weren't held to so many g.d. double f***ing standards? :puke:

[northofdenali]

60. Yep.

:pals:

[Hosnon]

37. I think you're missing the broader point of my post.

Referring to the "hunt" (quotation marks intentionally included) was simply my take on why men are a bit more "egalitarian" when selecting a mate. It was a minor point.

The crux of the post was to acknowledge the existence of the ubiquitous male stare discussed in another thread. The "why" behind that stare was not what I was focusing on.

[Skittles]

66. I'm not missing ANYTHING

I'm SICK of men yakking about their HUNT status - get OVER yourselves already - you have NO IDEA how we women would behave if we had not been relegated to non-status for CENTURIES

[Hosnon]

72. If you're not missing anything...

Then you should realize that I hold no real stake in the "hunt" comment.

Perhaps a better explanation would be that men have a natural inclination to spread their genes as much as possible (nothing to do with a "hunt" and anything that that terminology entails). As a result, noticing the opposite sex is more prevalent in men and contributes to the ubiquitous stare discussed in the other thread.

And yes, this may be enhanced by the societal history of humans, i.e., the subjugation of women.

However, all of this relates to the question of why - which is not the focus of my post(s). There may be, and probably are, a million reasons why men act in this certain manner. Regardless of what they may be, I posted to let the other member know that I don't think the idea of the ubiquitous stare is nonsense (as was implied/indicated in the other thread).

[Skittles]

73. you're not understanding ME

men have always been FREE to express their "natural inclinations" - WOMEN HAVE NOT - you don't think we check out the good-looking guys? We are not overt about it because we'd be called WHORES or it would be perceived as an INVITATION TO BE RAPED. You don't understand at all that it's not about "NATURAL INCLINATIONS" for women - it's what we have to do to SURVIVE.

[noamnety]

74. I never heard it expressed like that before

something new for me to chew on.

[Skittles]

75. thanks....sorry for getting so hostile

it drives us ladies insane, the inane theories men come up with to explain their behavior and the behavior of WOMEN, never factoring in how their extreme suppression of all things female suppressed our "natural inclinations" too. :( I doubt there is really too much natural female behavior happening in this world.

[noamnety]

77. at least he understood the concept of the male gaze

That's more than a lot of guys will admit to.

That next bit, the justification of why it happens (because men have been allowed to do whatever feels natural without it threatening their survival), is a new thing to digest, and I honestly didn't get what you were saying til that post I just responded to, when you spelled it out really clearly.

And yet now that you did, it's slap-my-forehead obvious to me.

[Skittles]

78. well believe me

you would not believe how many WOMEN don't understand this either :o

[Hosnon]

80. That may be.

But that could be the result of a problem on my side, your side or, most likely, both.

I can how society/culture would tend to discourage the sexual inclinations of women. However - and this may be a factual dispute between you and me - I think that all things being equal, men would still have a greater sexual inclination.

As I noted in my original post, women are still attracted to men, e.g., they check them out, but to a lesser extent than men are to women. The 75%/25% numbers are completely arbitrary except to the extent that the male percentage is greater than the female percentage.

In other words, both men and women have sexual inclinations (here, the inclination to glance or stare). However, I think that the inclination is greater in men than women even when culture influences are taken into account. This gives rise to the ubiquitous male stare.

Perhaps a similar female version would exist absent the cultural pressures on women. However, that does not seem to be the case today. I was indicating that I acknowledge the existence of the male version. Why the male version exists and whether or not a comparable female version would/could/will exist is a different topic.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. Thank you, Skittles

:yourock:

I don't think the guys can understand how careful we have to be.

For all the guys who claim that they'd just love to have women be more sexually assertive, there are an equal number who will ridicule, get angry with, gossip about, or even try to rape a woman who does so--or if they think she has done so.

[girl gone mad]

94. You got it right, skittles.

As far as I'm concerned, women have the same desires, but society often discourages the expression of those desires.

We aren't different, but we sure learn quickly that society expects us to behave as if we are. Brad Pitt, Justin Timberlake, even Elvis owe their careers to women's and girls' desire to ogle good looking men.

[redqueen]

112. Bravo!

:applause:

[leftofthedial]

14. guh-ross!

preteens?

I'm not a fan of males in the first place, but that's just disgusting.

[LeftyMom]

17. I voted 13 but now that I think about it, it was 12.

I was a freshman in high school, and I wasn't 13 until my b'day at almost the end of the school year.

[Nicole]

21. The summer I was 12

I got stares and rude comments from adult men at the neighborhood pool. After about 5th time I stayed away from that pool for the rest of the summer.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

23. Adult : around 24.

Sometimes I am very shocked that some men can get away with some of the things that they do. I wish I could vote for the Death ray stare as well.

[Tsiyu]

24. It would be interesting to conduct a similar poll of males

Perhaps it might show how disparate our lives - as males and females - are. Or it might show that male pre-teens have to deal with this crap as well.

I can tell you that as a girl it was disturbing to me to realize how some men could morph into these mindless creatures unable to control themselves and unable to consider the consequences of their actions in the midst of their scheming for gratification.

I always felt they were people who made really bad choices, and I get really angry when men say that they "can't control themselves" due to biology. If this is true, no male adult should ever become a teacher of females, nor should an adult male ever gain custody of a female child.

When you throw that argument at the "Biology-Defines-Us-And-We-Have-No-Freewill" males, they seem to shut the hell up.

[noamnety]

38. Thanks for the suggestion

I just started one.

Using the same language in the poll sure feels awkward.

Do preteen boys ever have a consistent problem walking down the street without adult women honking at them and making comments? (Guess we'll find out.)

[neweurope]

25. Pre-teen. Very pre-teen.

Most pre-teen, in fact.

----------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[northofdenali]

27. Easy answer - Mr. NoD

37 years and still riding those damn motorcycles....... together.

His rude gesture was planting me (in a miniskirt) in a snowbank. Cold. :rofl: But it got my (intended) attention. I never thought of it as harassment or even weird - just "guy". But it was 1969.

I still get honked/hollered/whistled - and I pay no attention unless the honker/hollerer/whistler is aggressive or exceptionally cute :sarcasm: (feministas, pay no attention to the old broad behind the mirror.............)

My dad taught me how to waltz, cha-cha, fox trot, etc. Does that count? How about when he showed me the TV show with Elvis? Ever done the Twist at the ripe old age of 8 in the family room?

Jeezuz what a sick question!!

Not every girl or boy who gets "that type" of attention is molested. The very crap you're talking about is usually benign. Unless it isn't. Rude gestures? Christ, I gave "the finger" to two idiots I had to drive around on the way home tonight.

What's your problem?

Yes, I read the OP. I still don't like the questions. I hate that anyone has to go through any kind of mental or physical harassment or molestation, but every gesture? Every flirtation? Everything is suspect?

If that's the case, I'll opt out. Me and Gloria gotta get some rest.

[noamnety]

35. Rude gestures

To me it was inherently obvious within the context of this thread that "rude gestures" would not refer to "giving someone the finger" as that's not normally considered sexual attention in our culture. When Cheney blurted out "Fuck You" in the senate, that was not interpreted as a sexual advance, right?

You clearly have a strong sense that somebody may have made a rude gesture to you when you were young, or that someone may have flirted with you, but it wasn't something you'd qualify as "sexual attention."

Why not go with the assumption that others here are just as smart as you, and can also figure out the context of what happened to them in their own lives?

[liontamer]

62. in my response i differentiated between

comments of the "you're a pretty little girl" nature and the "hey baby, suck my dick" ones. The difference between dancing with your father and having a stranger jack off in front of you on a bus is pretty obvious to most people. Now I understand that I'm highlighting the extremes in my response. I was never molested (for once my parents did something right!) but that doesn't mean that street harassment didn't become a part of my life at a very young age. That's what this poll is about.

[northofdenali]

29. PS - Did I say that I think this is a very sick poll?

If I didn't, now I am.

[redqueen]

44. In what way is it "sick"?

:shrug:

[Ariana Celeste]

31. 10-ish, unfortunately.

Ain't life grand.

[BlueIris]

33. Ew.

I'm sorry.

[omega minimo]

34. somewhere in the first two (age) choices is the impact of junior high school teachers

[malta blue]

36. When I was 12 some pervert pulled his car over and

he was - well you know....

When I was 13 some guy grabbed my nether regions on the subway.

Ick!

[noamnety]

41. Ick.

I made it to 17 before that first scenario happened to me.

[malta blue]

49. Lucky you!

Listen, it is unnecessary at any age - that is for sure, but at least you reached an age where you knew what was happening.

[deepthought42]

40. I have no life. No one pays attention to me. n/t

[noamnety]

43. for some reason

I feel obligated to respond to this post! :D

[deepthought42]

46. I won't complain. I take what attention I can get.

I take back my previous post. Once a guy did ask me out. Maybe it was two guys in my lifetime. I never went out with either, they were both too weird for me.


Anyway... :hi:

[Cabcere]

69. I know how you feel

:hug: I'm not really conventionally attractive enough to get wolf whistles - or even a second glance - from most men, even the notoriously "horndog" ones. For most of my life, pretty much the only male attention I received was from creeps like my eighth-grade gym teacher (see my post above for details). In the past few years that has started to change, and there have been a handful of good guys who seemed to be interested in/attracted to me, but it's still not like I can walk down the street and get honked at or anything like that. I suppose that's a good thing, but sometimes I almost wish somebody would do something obnoxious like that once in a while so I would feel like I was "hot," or something. (Yes, I know that's horrible. I'm just feeling a bit down at the moment, and it may be affecting my posts.) :shrug:

[deepthought42]

79. Yeah, I can understand that....

I suppose I blend into the crowd too well. Definately a wallflower. *sigh*

:hug:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

45. 12-13 is when I...

first noticed unwanted sexual attention from adult men.

I went to Catholic school in the Mission and wore the ubiquitous plaid skirt that would fly up with the smallest of breezes. SF is a seriously windy town, so we would wear shorts under our skirts to ward off prying eyes.

I remember walking from school to the 24th St. BART station after school to wait for the 14 Mission bus -- it was like running a gauntlet filled with disgusting behavior. The men would stand around and leer at us -- I mean really stare hard with a definite sexual intention -- and they would start chatting us up, smiling at us in a really disturbing way. The worst was when they would make that nasty, "kissy" sound at us -- the kind of sound you make when you are trying to call a dog to you. That would go on the entire time you were waiting for the bus -- and the 14 could take forever to get there, somedays. All us girls would huddle together, trying our best to ignore the offenders. That went on for five days a week, 40 weeks a year, for four years.

I was so humiliated and disgusted by the behavior that, to this day, the sound of a man making that sound makes me want to take a baseball bat to him. :mad:

[noamnety]

48. "5 days a week, 40 days a year, for four years"

I'm really really hoping the guys who didn't get the concept of "the ubiquitous male stare" in the other now locked thread are reading this.

[redqueen]

47. I wasn't even 12...

Unfortunately, my chest started developing early.

[xmas74]

59. You and me both.

:hug:

[Arugula Latte]

85. Had the same problem.

I swear, I'm a flat gal trapped in a semi-busty gal's body...

[InvisibleTouch]

50. Around 13. Nothing overly traumatic. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. 9 ish.

[Fleshdancer]

52. around 12 or 13...but I was a late bloomer

It's scary when it happens.

[noamnety]

53. That's a hell of a statement

Implying that 12 is later than the norm for getting that sort of attention from adult men.

(I have a hunch that statement shocks more men than women.)

[devilgrrl]

54. I receive "adult male sexual attention?"

I haven't noticed it.

[noamnety]

55. other, then?

*looks at user name*

Or Death Ray. ;)

[Book Lover]

57. 9 or 10

I think it was the catholic school uniform that did it mostly; I'd get this shit when walking home from school more often than not.

[xmas74]

58. I received my first training bra when I was 9.

Three days later some creepy guy at the Mom and Pop (same one I went to every day after school to buy Now or Laters) said that he could see my bra strap and reached over to touch my shirt.

I refused to wear a bra again until I was in eighth grade.

[liontamer]

61. it was around 13 when i became explicitly aware of men hitting on me

in retrospect it probably began a bit earlier, but it wasn't till then that men felt comfortable following me down the street and yelling suggestive things at me.

[newsdude]

87. When you say men, what do you mean?

I'm seeing a lot of women say they were, as 12 and 13 year olds, checked out or hit on by men.

Is that possible? Are you talking 16 year old males? 18 year olds? 21 year olds? 30-year-olds?

[liontamer]

88. 30 year olds

and older. I'm not counting flirting from boys my own age. Friend's fathers and others of the same age group.

[Yavin4]

63. Okay, I Am Going to be Royally Flamed Here, But I Have To Post This. Please read carefully.

Some of the comments on this thread justify the uneasiness that some straight men have showering and changing their clothes among Gay men. It's not the fear of being raped, rather it's the uneasiness of unwanted sexual advances.

If gawking at women and making unwanted sexual advances is wrong for men to direct at women, then why is that not also wrong for Gay men to do the same to straight men, and yes, I have seen this happen. I have seen Gay men sexually harrass straight men on the job and in the Gym.

Now, go ahead and flame away.

[liontamer]

64. I'm going to answer your post carefully

Nobody should have to tolerate sleazy sexual advances. However, the mere existence of heterosexual men is not the problem. It's only a small percentage of men who harass women. I am not troubled when men respectfully approach me, and tolerate rejection respectfully. The men who treat women as objects are the problem. Now if the gay men showering at your gym followed you home yelling obscene comments (as has happened to me on multiple occasions) their behavior would be inappropriate and you would be justified in feeling threatened. But the mere existence of a homosexual men should not be a threat to you. If it is, you are homophobic (literally you feel threatened by homosexuals). Lumping ALL gay men as sexual harassers just because you have seen it happen on some occasions is bigotry plain and simple.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

81. ....

:thumbsup:

hey did you ever end up getting my message with directions to lisa's workplace?

[liontamer]

82. i did

but that day was so cold i ended up taking a nap instead. :)

[pokerfan]

104. So as long as there are no sleezy sexual advances

a woman should be perfectly content to shower with random men at the gym?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

105. personally if i could be guaranteed that i would be fine showering with men.

[liontamer]

110. I go to a coed russian bathhouse

it's not that big a deal. :shrug: The female "same sex" showers at my gym are actually full of children of both genders, and coed bathrooms are common in dorms and hostels.

[idgiehkt]

67. lol

I call that karma.

[omega minimo]

76. Apples and Oranges. If you look at the graphic and read carefully, you'll notice that the point is

".... gawking and making unwanted sexual advances is wrong for men to direct at" CHILDREN.

:thumbsdown:

[noamnety]

83. that wasn't exactly my point, though related

I posted the poll because of this (my bolding):

The fact that I did not dispute that 11 y/o can be "checked out" by an adult, though it is not that common, essentially proves that I am in fact agreeing with the female perspective.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x238639#250205

What I was seeing in that thread was men dismissing women's accounts of what women's experiences are. They don't see it, ergo it doesn't exist. I tell a man it's well within normal for an 11 year old to be sexually harassed. Responses typically range from denial, to mocking, to the sentiment that, since they haven't seen it happen, it must not be happening.

MESSAGE TO MEN WITH DAUGHTERS: It's probably happening. Even though it ain't happening when you're around.

So the poll was to drive my point home that this IS the norm. Even if it's invisible in their world. Not even putting a value judgment on it in the poll itself, just fighting

urgh even have to type out this sentence is infuriating and depressing and overwhelming

just fighting for an acknowledgment that women know better than men what women experience in this society.

I cannot believe we have to argue with men to have a voice in the debate about what it is to be female.

And the bigger point I was trying to make in that thread was that if someone has a different belief than you about how society is operating, the person with the least power is generally going to have the most accurate view, because the higher up you get, the more invisible things become to you - because it's not shit you have to deal with.

---------------------------------------------------------

Having said all that, looking at the difference between the comments in this thread, and the similar one for men, I'm seeing a huge disparity in the attitudes of the comments. This thread is filled with disgust, anger, feelings of powerlessness, and puke smilies. The other thread has a decidedly different tone, overall.

Although it wasn't the intent of the poll, I would hope that a guy could look at the pattern of responses here, and recognize that the majority of women learn from a very young age that certain types of advances are ick, gross, puke repulsive. That seems to be something that's not embedded into a man's worldview. I think if men could absorb the implications of this, they would be less cocky about telling adult WOMEN what WOMEN ought to feel when a man stares at their ass.

[omega minimo]

89. Try this:

Tell the men who don't get it,

"Hey, ya know that guy at church, the tall, funny, handsome, energetic, smart guy that's the teacher, really smart and laughing all the time-- really good teacher, the kids love 'im-- yeah, that guy. Well ya know he teaches 8th grade and every day, all your daughters, ya know, every one 'em, they never tell anyone this, but they all laugh about it, cuz it makes 'em really uncomfortable, really, cuz he's constantly staring at their breasts, or where their breasts will be, cuz the girls are, ya know, 12 or 13 and some of 'em are developed but anyway, he's always just staring at the their chests when he talks to 'em, NEVER looks 'em in the eye, it's totally creepy. Weirds 'em out."





"So the poll was to drive my point home that this IS the norm. Even if it's invisible in their world. Not even putting a value judgment on it in the poll itself, just fighting

"urgh even have to type out this sentence is infuriating and depressing and overwhelming

"just fighting for an acknowledgment that women know better than men what women experience in this society.

"I cannot believe we have to argue with men to have a voice in the debate about what it is to be female."

That's why I posted and was looking for that answer, which you itemized in detail and amounted to -- obliviousness. Even with all your detailed reasons, it defies logic and seems somewhat insane that people cannon SEE or RELATE even if it is not in their experience. But no. If it's not in their experience "it doesn't exist" :puke: OOoops there's another one :puke:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

90. Considering you're quoting me, I have to respond.

I disputed the alleged commonality of very young girls being harrassed. Perhaps I was wrong in my assumption, but your logic in the linked thread was all over the place.

It had originally focused on the security cam voyeuristic harrassment of women versus a male on the street who simply LOOKED (i.e.,NOT making catcalls, whistling, crude comments, etc.) at an attractive woman.

Somehow, you brought in the 11 y/o meme as a way to connect it with the man on the street scenario I just described -- a completely illogical conclusion based on God knows what.

I simply pointed out how attractive people will be noticed by others, people who oftentimes will NOT make any crude gestures or comments -- it's human nature to notice beauty. I also pointed out how those who in fact do make such gestures, comments, etc., are in the wrong, yet you seem hellbent on connecting my sentiments with some patriarchal conspiracy against women, i.e., "the ubiquitous male gaze."

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

92. And as someone who has been part of a lesbian sandwich with you, you're a nice guy.

Honestly, these posts trying to make you out to be some mysogynistic catcalling, drooling creature are quite amusing, since you're one of the most respectful straight dudes around.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

93. Thanks!

:toast:

I bet you're gonna be accused of being a guy now. :rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

95. It would not be the first time.

LostinVA has also been accused of being a guy a few times.

:shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

96. I think you've put that accusation to rest.

:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. Yes, we can vouch that we are both, indeed, female.

:evilgrin:

:rofl:

[noamnety]

123. strawman to divert from actual discussion

unless someone actually HAS portrayed him to personally be one of the catcalling droolers.

[noamnety]

99. You were wrong, but that's not really the issue

You were wrong in your assumption about it being the norm for young girls to get harassed, yep.

Now think about the thread as a whole - the premise of the OP was that a person admitted that, as a person with privilege, they have false assumptions about other groups of people. So that's where you're at now - except for the admitting it part. I don't mean admitting you were wrong on one fact; I mean admitting the possibility that your view of other people is biased. I'm gonna requote something from that thread.

Those in positions of high power have a vested interest in preserving their place in the hierarchy, so their views of social life are more distorted than the views of persons who gain little or nothing from existing power relationships.

See how that works? Men have a distorted view of how women are oppressed by men. The distorted view prevents them from recognizing what to women is an obvious systemic problem. Fixing the problem would require giving up some of their privilege, so it is to their benefit to keep it invisible, and to shut down discussion of it when it rears its ugly head. Phrases like "some patriarchal conspiracy against women" are deliberately dismissive of the women's perspective, and are an attempt not to understand women's issues, but to shut down discussion.

As a person with the privilege of not experiencing sexual harassment from adults when you were still a child, and as a person with the privilege of not knowing every one of your friends has a similar story from their childhood, you were unaware that such a thing is, in fact, the norm. That's an ugly reality, that it's the norm.

It's okay you held a false assumption. The problem is that at least myself and one other woman told you your assumption was wrong, and you wanted to debate that, instead of listening to us. And that also, I want to point out, is a very male style of communication. You dismissed our experiences as women, and felt it was your place to tell us what it's like to grow up female. THAT is the underlying problem - not that you didn't know what age we are when men start hitting on us.

If someone in a group with less privilege than yours tells you they are offended/scared/threatened by a given behavior, and that we regularly experience it, and that it's a way of further oppressing us, it's not your place to dispute that. It's your place to learn from it. That's really what I want to hear from you at this point - that you get the bigger point that people with less privilege than you understand their own lives, and understand the effects of how others interact with them, in ways that you don't understand.

If you get that, if you understand it in your gut, you'll end up being a much smarter person, because you'll learn to listen to other people better.

Once you get that, come back and read the rest of this post.
----------------------------------------------------------------
The way that adult males interact with us on a sexual level when we are young is not disconnected or irrelevent to how they interact with us when we are older, or how we respond to those interactions. The feelings we have when an adult male harasses us on the street when we are young are the foundation for how we feel when men on the street sexually harass us, to include leering at us, when we are older.

Where you don't see connections, women do.

Where you don't see connections, recognize that as part of your privilege. It IS a privilege that you don't understand that the way we do.

I'll tell you another thing. That poll up there? It's sickening, isn't it, to see the numbers, and read the stories down below? As ugly as that is, it ain't nothing, because that poll doesn't include women who were harassed or groped or raped by male peers who were themselves under 18. And it doesn't include the women who were harassed or groped or raped once the women themselves were over 18. So those numbers you see? As bad as they look? That ain't nothing.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

100. Yeah...

Now think about the thread as a whole - the premise of the OP was that a person admitted that, as a person with privilege, they have false assumptions about other groups of people. So that's where you're at now - except for the admitting it part. I don't mean admitting you were wrong on one fact; I mean admitting the possibility that your view of other people is biased. I'm gonna requote something from that thread.

I never referred to that OP -- I was referring to the subthread between us which dealt with a particular situation separate from the OP.

"Those in positions of high power have a vested interest in preserving their place in the hierarchy, so their views of social life are more distorted than the views of persons who gain little or nothing from existing power relationships."

I didn't realize I was in such a high position. I am a straight male, but I am also poor and a minority. Where do I fit in now? :eyes:

Phrases like "some patriarchal conspiracy against women" are deliberately dismissive of the women's perspective, and are an attempt not to understand women's issues, but to shut down discussion.

No, the phrase I used was dismissive of YOUR perspective, not that of women. Unless you now speak for all women, the claim of which I would not be shocked to hear. I used the phrase because you actually connected a man stealing a quick glance (and absolutely nothing more) at an attractive woman as she passes by with creepy predators who ogle 11-year-olds. You seriously don't see the tremendous jump in logic here? You don't see the difference between silently noticing the physical beauty of an adult and creepily staring/harassing an underaged child?

It's okay you held a false assumption. The problem is that at least myself and one other woman told you your assumption was wrong, and you wanted to debate that, instead of listening to us. And that also, I want to point out, is a very male style of communication. You dismissed our experiences as women, and felt it was your place to tell us what it's like to grow up female. THAT is the underlying problem - not that you didn't know what age we are when men start hitting on us.

I did absolutely no such thing. I originally disputed that adult men leering at 11-year-olds was a very common thing. I may have been wrong about that, which I freely admit. Oh, and "a very male style of communication"? You accuse me of slandering women and you attack men like that? Hilarious.

If you even knew me, you would discover that I am one of the best-listening, least talkative males you will likely find. Of course, that might not matter to you, you know, us guys being all the same.

:sarcasm:

If someone in a group with less privilege than yours tells you they are offended/scared/threatened by a given behavior, and that we regularly experience it, and that it's a way of further oppressing us, it's not your place to dispute that. It's your place to learn from it. That's really what I want to hear from you at this point - that you get the bigger point that people with less privilege than you understand their own lives, and understand the effects of how others interact with them, in ways that you don't understand.

This gets even funnier. Recently, I posted many responses in threads about the homophobic Snickers ads, particularly in defense of GLBT DUers who were in fact offended but also told to "lighten up" by straight DUers who couldn't possibly understand their perspective. As a straight man myself, I stepped down off the hierarchial ladder to defend my GLBT brothers and sisters against those who attacked them.

Do you remember standing up for GLBT DUers in those Snickers threads? Of course you don't, because you NEVER POSTED IN THEM. So I guess you don't like to stand up for those at a societal disadvantage from you, right? After all, that's what you're accusing me of.

I'll tell you another thing. That poll up there? It's sickening, isn't it, to see the numbers, and read the stories down below? As ugly as that is, it ain't nothing, because that poll doesn't include women who were harassed or groped or raped by male peers who were themselves under 18. And it doesn't include the women who were harassed or groped or raped once the women themselves were over 18. So those numbers you see? As bad as they look? That ain't nothing.

Of course it's sickening. Where did I say it wasn't? And where the hell do you get the nerve to even imply that I condone rape? Seriously, what's wrong with you?

[LostinVA]

106. I want to say that I know Starbucks Anarchist IRL

And, he is indeed a very nice, polite, gentlemanly man. He's a nice guy.

And, he indeed of one of the best straight advocates we GBLT DUers have, especially straight MALE Duers -- who are few and far between on certain threads.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

107. Thanks, LostinVA!

:hi:

[LostinVA]

108. And I didn't even have to lie

This time!

[noamnety]

122. Actually, you did lie, blatantly

Do you remember standing up for GLBT DUers in those Snickers threads? Of course you don't, because you NEVER POSTED IN THEM. So I guess you don't like to stand up for those at a societal disadvantage from you, right?

It ain't that hard to do a search of my posts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=142420#142602
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=139314#139469

[noamnety]

126. Oops, lost track of who was speaking

I mixed up the person I quoted with the person saying they didn't lie. Too late to edit, will try to read more carefully in the future!

[redqueen]

113. I didn't read the original thread...

but I wanted to chime in here to say that I'm reading the comments directed at you not as an attack... but you seem to be taking them that way.

From my perspective, she did not come anywhere even close to implying that you condoned rape. The fact that you responded that way leads me to believe that you are perhaps misreading what she is intending to say.

Also: "I may have been wrong about that, which I freely admit." Well, it appears to me that you actually were wrong... so perhaps you might freely admit that, instead of that you 'may have' been wrong?

For what it's worth... I see nothing at all wrong with members of either gender politely noticing members of either gender that they find attractive. Leering and ogling are of course another matter entirely... however those might arguably be considered acceptable behavior in certain situations / settings. (I wanted to make it clear that I do see your side of the argument in this.)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

114. Thank you for your thoughtful response, redqueen.

As far as the "may have" portion of my statement, I actually caught that eventually, but the editing period had expired, but yes, I was incorrect in that assumption.

But I feel the poster IS attacking me because of her comments in the linked thread. She actually did imply, in one of her posts, that I was under the assumption that sexual assaults of adult women were rare, a position I NEVER stated, implied or endorsed.

My problem with the poster was her constant mischaracterization of my statements, particularly when she tied in underage children into the argument, something I had never mentioned before and something irrelevant to what we had been discussing -- two examples of voyeurism, one physical and one technological, of adult women.

You have been polite in your response, which I thank you for. I only got upset when I felt I was needlessly attacked, particularly coming from the previous thread. If the poster possessed your rationality and politeness, I would not have responded to her the way I did.

And I agree about the polite noticing of attractive people -- that was my point all along, especially since in the previous thread, I stated that venturing into catcalls, comments, harassment was clearly wrong and uncalled for, but a simple silent acknowledgment of physical beauty was not only normal human behavior, but expected human behavior which harms nobody at all. However, that subthread devolved into various tangents and personal attacks, which is clear if you read that linked thread. That is where my defensiveness is coming from.

Thank you again for your calm response. It is duly noted.

[redqueen]

116. I don't doubt that tempers flared...

it's an emotional subject. I'm sorry that you felt attacked... I hope it's clear now that we all see eye-to-eye on this issue.

:hug:

Sadly, I'm too chickenshit to read that other thread just now. I already had one heated conversation about gender issues this morning before I even got to work! hehehehe... I'll wait till after lunch, maybe by then my outrage-o-meter will have fallen back to acceptable levels. :P

[Starbucks Anarchist]

117. Absolutely, we do.

:hug: :hi:

[noamnety]

125. "what's wrong with me?" I dunno, I must be defective. :)

I never referred to that OP -- I was referring to the subthread between us which dealt with a particular situation separate from the OP.

From my perspective, it was not separate from the OP. You view it as a separate issue, I view it as inseparable. Is it okay to accept that from your perspective the issues are unrelated, and from my perspective as a woman they are very related?

I didn't realize I was in such a high position. I am a straight male, but I am also poor and a minority. Where do I fit in now? :eyes:

That would mean you have privileges from being straight. You have privileges from bring male. You don't have the privileges of the upper class. Not knowing what you look like, I won't comment on your ethnicity.

No, the phrase I used was dismissive of YOUR perspective, not that of women. Unless you now speak for all women, the claim of which I would not be shocked to hear. I used the phrase because you actually connected a man stealing a quick glance (and absolutely nothing more) at an attractive woman as she passes by with creepy predators who ogle 11-year-olds. You seriously don't see the tremendous jump in logic here? You don't see the difference between silently noticing the physical beauty of an adult and creepily staring/harassing an underaged child?

On the receiving end of it (female perspective) there is a connection between a man staring at our ass when we are 12, and a man staring at our ass when we are older. As girls, we are socialized to recognize that we are vulnerable to being victims of male violence. We need to be on our guard, more than men, because we learn our survival depends upon it. So when we notice ourselves receiving male attention, it often puts us on alert in some way.

A "glance" seems to be your strawman, because I've been discussing staring at a women's ass, and you've been downgrading that to "glance". A glance isn't lingering, it doesn't stop at a particular person and stay there.

I did absolutely no such thing. I originally disputed that adult men leering at 11-year-olds was a very common thing. I may have been :) wrong about that, which I freely admit. Oh, and "a very male style of communication"? You accuse me of slandering women and you attack men like that? Hilarious.

Men and women are socialized to have different styles of communication. Do you know what they are? Do you think it's an attack to acknowledge that this is part of gendering in our culture?

And where the hell do you get the nerve to even imply that I condone rape?

Huh? If I write that a sickening number of women experience sexual harassment or rape, what I am saying is a sickening number of women experience sexual harassment or rape. I'm not saying "you condone rape."

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

65. under 10

my first time walking home from school alone. Scared the shit out of me.

[Arugula Latte]

68. 12. I started getting wolf whistles and I got groped at a concert.

Frickin' perv passed by me and decided he was entitled to lay his hands on me, so to speak. x(

[Left Is Write]

70. 17 or so.

[MedleyMisty]

71. Around 9 to 11

My mother's boyfriend

[NewWaveChick1981]

86. 16-17.

:hi:

[wildhorses]

91. 13

[Rhythm]

98. never had that problem...

dykey chicks like me are generally ignored in favor of our 'girlie' friends

fine with me, too... saves me the aggrivation of dealing with them.

[pitohui]

101. i had the same physical dimensions by age 14

while i would prefer never to receive male attention except from a male i myself picked out for an immediate boffing i can't reasonably condemn a man for trying to get my attention when i appeared to be (and certainly felt to myself to be on the inside) a woman with an adult woman's needs

i think honking/hollering/gesturing is rude, however, i also received some attentions from those who actually talked to me first and were trying to be nice people and had no idea of my age

i'm not going to condemn, i had hormones and occasionally i acted on my desires to get what i wanted from someone convenient to hand

i don't think this makes the dude in question a child molester, dude in question never knew the truth of the matter and would never be given a "real" number to get in touch w. me a second time

i guess by today's standards i was evil and devious but back then there was no real risk of the man being harmed and i just wanted to work on those "night moves" as the corny song of the era say

i was too young for "serious" involvement and marriage and all that good happy crappy and i knew it, this is why i wanted the anonymity

we're also talking pre-aids/post-roe era -- i figured i could do this safely and maintain my independence and my life

as the poster upstream said, rude dickweeds are hitting on your 11 year old daughter from the time she gets breasties, that isn't even a point of debate, it's just what happens, the reason she won't tell you is she don't want you to flame out on the guy and go to jail because it happens every goddamn day

you have to have a thick skin to be a girl in this society or at least you did back in the day, it was just part of it, you just had to let it roll off if you weren't interested, nobody wanted to get their dad in trouble fighting with some old fool

[Anarcho-Socialist]

102. The poll results are disturbing

but the results aren't overly surprising. It's so sad.

[Blue_Roses]

109. I'm still waiting

and I'm middle-age:eyes:

[legally blonde]

111. around 16 or 17

but honestly, it could have been earlier (and probably was) and I just don't remember. Although I definitely remember my creepy calculus teacher in high school who was a little too friendly. Ick.

[treestar]

115. Adult

Which would have been the late 70s. That might have had an effect. Or I just didn't notice it. Maybe the location matters a lot, too. Small town guys might not do things they'd be noticed for, whereas in bigger cities, people can get away with more.

[MsKandice01]

120. It started at 11 or 12 for me, but, in their defense...

I was 5'10 at 11 years old. I reached my current height, 6'1", at 13 years old. I used to hang out with my 5'0" friends who were older than me and many people I thought I was their MUCH older sister. At first glance, it would be very hard to believe I was as young as I was.

[Shine]

121. 16-18 n/t

[benevolent dictator]

128. Other: People usually ignore me because I look like a 12 year old boy

But I definitely notice it when out with my sister or certain other of my friends, usually then I'm assumed to be a dyke (or younger brother), so that makes it ok to honk/holler at or make comments at them. (Or yell anti-gay slurs at us, you know, whatever they feel like.)

[benevolent dictator]

131. Oh wait, I guess at 17...

there was "Winky" in my welding class. He was probably 40 or 50, and would always wink at me in a creepy way, and would randomly come into the area where I was welding and blow on my neck. Of course it always startled the shit out of me, because I was TIG welding and couldn't see anything. He also propositioned me at one point (when the two of us were alone in the welding lab because everyone else had left and the instructor had to take a call) and when I told him I "didn't swing that way" he offered to "just do oral" because he was "really good at that." Luckily, at one point he asked how old I was and must have figured out he'd get in trouble if he pursued it, so he backed off after that, but I also made a conscious effort to avoid him. :puke:

[benevolent dictator]

129. .

oops. didn't mean to post twice.

[Breeze54]

130. 5

and then at 12....from ADULT males. :puke:

[NMMNG]

132. I voted 13-15

Then I remembered an unsavory experience from when I was about 9. x(

[noonwitch]

133. Definitely pre-teen

One of my parents' male friends used to comment about the girls in the group's developing breasts. He actually complained to my dad when my then-11 year old sister told him to "fuck off". He also did the same to adult women, they even got a birthday cake made for him one year that was in the shape of a sweater, with huge boobs. I believe his wife ordered it for him.

Our dad would tell him to knock it off, or he'd be sorry. I felt badly for his 3 daughters, and wonder if he abused them or anything. I also felt badly for his niece, who happened to be well-endowed, although her dad was like my dad about it, even though the guy was his brother in law.