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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 08:50 PM
Original message
Poll question: Your favorite ancient Roman
Edited on Tue Jun-12-07 09:04 PM by brentspeak
Julius Caesar:



Augustus:



Nero:



Cicero:



Caligula:



Claudius:



Agrippina the Younger:



Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus



Tacitus


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Tektonik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Caligula of course!
no one else from Ancient Rome ever had the privilege of me reading about them w/ me staying awake
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. Cincinnatus
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Good choice
I should have included him in the poll.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. A second vote for Cincinnatus
Cincinnātus, L. Quinctius

A Roman patrician, whose name belongs to the earlier history of the Republic, and has a well-known and spirit stirring legend connected with it. His son, Caeso Quinctius, had been banished on account of his violent language towards the tribunes, and the father had retired to his own patrimony, aloof from popular tumults. The successes of the Aequi and Volsci in B.C. 458 rendered the appointment of a dictator necessary, and Cincinnatus was chosen to that high office. The delegates who were sent to announce this to him found the Roman noble ploughing his own fields, and from the plough he was transferred to the highest magistracy of his native State. The dictator laid aside his rural habiliments, assumed the ensigns of absolute power, levied a new army, marched all night to bring the necessary succour to the consul Minucius, who was surrounded by the enemy and blockaded in his camp, and before morning surrounded the enemy's army, and reduced it to a condition exactly similar to that in which the Romans had been placed. The baffled Aequi were glad to submit to the victor's terms; and Cincinnatus, thereupon returning in triumph to Rome, laid down his dictatorial power, after having held it only fourteen days, and returned to his farm. At an advanced age he was again appointed dictator, to restrain the power of Spurius Maelius (q.v.), and again proved himself the deliverer of his country (Val. Max. iv. 4, 7; Liv.iii. 26).

Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898)
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Can you imagine Bush laying down dictatatorial powers?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Marcus Aurelius
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Another one I should have included
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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. So many Romans, so little time.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. I like a Roman emperor that has trouble getting out of bed in the morning.
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snailly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Seconded
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
46. seconded!
his {i]Meditations changed my life.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. Cicero, all the way
the dude could rap.
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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. This gentleman...
Father Guido Sarducci

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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Was Caligula a cross dresser too?
I know about his other proclivities, but if that bust is is anywhere near accurate, he was very delicate looking. And also fucking insane.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. Yes, if you believe "I, Claudius"....


And Robert Graves did base his Claudius books on Roman sources.




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Lethe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. The Gracchus brothers because they fought for the common man
at least that's what my professor in Roman history class taught us. They stood up to power and ultimately they got wiped out for it along with thousands of their supporters.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Augustus.
He's hot.

So's his month.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:11 PM
Original message
Marc Antony
My namesake!
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lost-in-nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. You forgot
Atticus Spartacus!!!!!



:rofl: :rofl:

But really
I would have to say
Caligula
it was the very first video tape we rented
when we for our very first VCR.....




lost
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. Scipio Africanus
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. ...
"I have come not to make war on the Italians, but to aid the Italians against Rome."

Hannibal, Spoken to Italian soldiers of Rome captured at the Battle of Trasimeno.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. Seneca
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. I lurves me some Pliny the Elder.
The Younger, not so much.

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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. Julius Caesar...
...if only because I have fond memories of reading his Gallic War chronicles in high school Latin class. Plus I always thought his murder was a tragedy, given that he regarded his killer as almost a son.
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Parrcrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. Biggus Dickus
my fwend
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. I never learned her name, or the bar where we met...
But wow!
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. That was Roman Polanski.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. He's getting ancient.
:shrug:

(Oddly, this is the second Roman Polansky conversation I've had today, and probably the second I've had in several years.)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. There were no women in Ancient Rome, a matriarchy? Hmm?
lol

Okay -- I'll go with Octavia, Marc Antony's wife while he was cheating on her with Cleopatra. :)
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
40. Agrippina the Younger is one of the poll choices
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
24. You left off Petronius! Also, I'm partial to Suetonius, who provided much juicy gossip (nt)
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
25. Julian the Apostate ( I voted "other")
He was the last pagan Emperor, 331 -363 He was also the last Emperor of the Constantinian Dynasty.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. Pontius Pilate. I had some issues with him until I read his memoirs
Memoirs of Pontius Pilate by James R Mills

    It's been thirty years since he sentenced the troublemaker to die,
    but Pontius Pilate can't get Jesus out of his mind. . . .

    Forced to live out his life in exile, Pontius Pilate, the former governor of Judea, is now haunted by the executions that were carried out on his orders. The life and death of a particular carpenter from Nazareth lay heavily on his mind. With years of solitude stretched out before him, Pilate sets out to uncover all he can about Jesus--his birth, boyhood, ministry, and the struggles that led to his crucifixion. With unexpected wit and candor, Pilate reveals a unique, compelling picture of Jesus that only one of his enemies could give.


I stumbled upon the book in the fiction department of my library and really enjoyed it. Heck, Pontius should become a new gospel with a Jesus® seal of approval.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
27. The world would be a better place if more read Tacitus (fuck Plutarch).
Literary style

Tacitus' writings are known for their deep-cutting and dense prose, seldom glossy, in contrast to the more placable style of some of his contemporaries, like Plutarch. Describing a near defeat of the Roman army in Ann. I, 63 Tacitus does apply gloss, but does so by the brevity with which he describes the end of the hostilities, than by embellishing phrases.

In most of his writings he keeps to a chronological ordering of his narration, with only seldom an outline of the "bigger picture", and leaves the reader to construct that picture for himself. Nonetheless, when he does sketch the bigger picture, for example, in the opening paragraphs of the Annals - summarizing the situation at the end of the reign of Augustus - he uses a few condensed phrases to take the reader to the heart of the story.

Approach to history

Tacitus' historical style combines various approaches to history into a method of his own (owing some debt to Sallust): seamlessly blending straightforward descriptions of events, pointed moral lessons, and tightly-focused dramatic accounts, his historiography contains deep, and often pessimistic, insights into the workings of the human mind and the nature of power.

Tacitus' own declaration regarding his approach to history is famous (Ann. I,1):

inde consilium mihi . . . tradere . . . sine ira et studio, quorum causas procul habeo. Hence my purpose is to relate . . . without either anger or zeal, from any motives to which I am far removed.

There has been much scholarly discussion about Tacitus' "neutrality" (or "partiality" to others, which would make the quote above no more than a figure of speech).

Throughout his writing, Tacitus is concerned with the balance of power between the Senate and the Emperors, corruption and the growing tyranny among the governing classes of Rome as they adjust to the new imperial régime. In Tacitus' view, they squandered their cultural traditions of free speech and independence to placate the often bemused (and rarely benign) emperor.

Tacitus explored the emperors' increasing dependence on the goodwill of the armies to secure the principes. The internecine murders of the Julio-Claudians eventually gave way to opportunist generals. These generals, backed by the legions they commanded, followed Julius Caesar's example (and that of Sulla and Pompey) in realising that military might could secure them the political power in Rome. Tacitus believed this realisation came with the death of Nero, (Hist.1.4)

Welcome as the death of Nero had been in the first burst of joy, yet it had not only roused various emotions in Rome, among the Senators, the people, or the soldiery of the capital, it had also excited all the legions and their generals; for now had been divulged that secret of the empire, that emperors could be made elsewhere than at Rome.

Tacitus' political career was largely spent under the emperor Domitian; his experience of the tyranny, corruption, and decadence prevalent in the era (81–96) may explain his bitter and ironic political analysis. He warned against the dangers of unaccountable power, against the love of power untempered by principle, and against the popular apathy and corruption, engendered by the wealth of the empire, which allowed such evils to flourish. The experience of Domitian's tyrannical reign is generally also seen as the cause of the sometimes unfairly bitter and ironic cast to his portrayal of the Julio-Claudian emperors.

Nonetheless the image he builds of Tiberius throughout the first six books of the Annals is neither exclusively bleak nor approving: most scholars analyse the image of Tiberius as predominantly positive in the first books, becoming predominantly negative in the following books relating the intrigues of Sejanus. Even then, the entrance of Tiberius in the first chapters of the first book is a crimson tale dominated by hypocrisy by and around the new emperor coming to power; and in the later books some kind of respect for the wisdom and cleverness of the old emperor, keeping out of Rome to secure his position, is often transparent.

In general Tacitus does not fear to give words of praise and words of rejection to the same person, often explaining openly which he thinks the commendable and which the despicable properties. Not conclusively taking sides for or against the persons he describes is his hallmark, and led thinkers in later times to interpret his works as well as a defense of an imperial system, as a rejection of the same (see Tacitean studies, Black vs. Red Tacitists). A better illustration of Tacitus' "sine ira et studio" is scarcely imaginable.

Prose style

Tacitus' skill with written Latin is unsurpassed; no other author is considered his equal, except perhaps for Cicero. His style differs both from the prevalent style of the Silver Age and from that of the Golden Age; though it has a calculated grandeur and eloquence (largely thanks to Tacitus' education in rhetoric), it is extremely concise, even epigrammatic—the sentences are rarely flowing or beautiful, but their point is always clear. The same style has been both derided as "harsh, unpleasant, and thorny" and praised as "grave, concise, and pithily eloquent".

His historical works focus on the psyches and inner motivations of the characters, often with penetrating insight—though it is questionable how much of his insight is correct, and how much is convincing only because of his rhetorical skill. He is at his best when exposing hypocrisy and dissimulation; for example, he follows a narrative recounting Tiberius' refusal of the title pater patriae by recalling the institution of a law forbidding any "treasonous" speech or writings—and the frivolous prosecutions which resulted (Annals, 1.72). Elsewhere (Annals 4.64–66) he compares Tiberius' public distribution of fire relief to his failure to stop the perversions and abuses of justice which he had begun. Though this kind of insight has earned him praise, he has also been criticized for ignoring the larger context of the events which he describes.

Tacitus owes the most, both in language and in method, to Sallust; Ammianus Marcellinus is the later historian whose work most closely approaches him in style.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus


Histories (100-110)

* It is the rare fortune of these days that one may think what one likes and say what one thinks.
o Book I, 1

* Once killing starts, it is difficult to draw the line.
o Book I, 39

* The desire for glory clings even to the best men longer than any other passion.
o Book IV, 6

* Deos fortioribus adesse.
o Translation: The gods are on the side of the stronger.
o Book IV, 17

Annals (117)

* The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.
o Variant: The more corrupt the state, the more laws.
o Original Quote: And now bills were passed, not only for national objects but for individual cases, and laws were most numerous when the commonwealth was most corrupt.
o Book III, 27

* He had talents equal to business, and aspired no higher.
o Book VI, 39

* What is today supported by precedents will hereafter become a precedent.
o Book XI, 24

* So true is it that all transactions of preeminent importance are wrapt in doubt and obscurity; while some hold for certain facts the most precarious hearsays, others turn facts into falsehood; and both are exaggerated by posterity.
o Variant: So obscure are the greatest events, as some take for granted any hearsay, whatever its source, others turn truth into falsehood, and both errors find encouragement with posterity.
o Book III
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malta blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
29. Flavius Josephus
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
31. Marcus Didius Falco! nt
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
32. ovid or catullus
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
33. Lucretius
Roman philosopher who promoted an agnostic outlook and personal responsibility for life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Nature_of_Things
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slj0101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. I did a term paper on Lucretius, for my Roman History class in college.
"On the Nature of Things" was an ineresting read, and a rather easy one, too.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. It is an interesting thesis
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
34. Marcus Cato - "Carthago delenda est!"
"Although Carthage didn't stand a chance, the war was drawn out for three years. Eventually a descendant of Scipio Africanus, Scipio Aemilianus, defeated the starved citizens of the besieged city of Carthage. After killing or selling all the inhabitants into slavery, the Romans razed (possibly salting the land) and burned the city. No one was allowed to live there. Cato's motto had been carried out."

Salting the land. Problem solved.

(This is my favorite rejoined to people who say violence solves nothing. The Third Punic War certainly solved Rome's problem with Carthage.)

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begin_within Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
35. candles
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
36. Marcus Aurelius....
A fine philosopher. Too bad Rome went downhill after him.

I'm also fond of Augustus & Claudius--but I've been heavily influenced by Robert Graves. Apparently Suetonius a his major source for the Claudius novels.

And let's put in a word for Julius Caesar. Hey, I read his book! And (again, according to Graves) his troops liked to boast that he was "every woman's man & every man's woman."



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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
37. Claudius.
With the Gracchi running a close second.
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
38. The Gracchi. They were the JFK and RFK of their time.
In more ways than one, certainly. But they were both assassinated for their advocacy of the poor.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
39. I gotta go with Caligula... He was all about family values. n/t
:rofl:

******************************** :sarcasm: ***************************************
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
43. Cicero.
He was a brilliant human being. Unfortunately, he wasn't willing to play by their rules.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
44. kick
:kick:
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