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My Official 'Why Snape Isn't Really Evil' Theory (SPOILERS, obviously)

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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:40 PM
Original message
My Official 'Why Snape Isn't Really Evil' Theory (SPOILERS, obviously)
If you're not a really dorky Harry Potter fan, don't even bother reading this post.

Snape's not evil. He's just an extremely skilled double agent. Here's why:

1.) Snape had multiple opportunities to completely dick Harry over, but instead protected him. For instance...in Book 3, he could've gotten Harry in a lot of trouble for helping Sirius, but instead stood up for him and suggested that his mind was being controlled. In Book 6, Harry could've gotten in SERIOUS trouble for using that nasty curse on Draco that nearly killed him, but Snape only gave him a detention. Snape ALSO could've easily captured Harry at the end of Book 6 and brought him back as a prize for Voldemort. He didn't. When it really counted, Snape doesn't go all the way to ruin Harry's life.

2.) The Unbreakable Oath that Snape made with Narcissa in Book 6 is crucial. Snape vowed to carry out Draco's task if he should fail, that task being to kill Dumbledore. Narcissa was afraid of what would happen to Draco if he was unsuccessful, and indeed, failure to kill Dumbledore would've meant not only the death of Draco, but of Narcissa and Lucius as well. If Snape broke the oath to help Draco, he would've died as well. Had Snape NOT killed Dumbledore, not only would HE have died, but it probably would've led to the deaths of Draco and his family as well. Snape couldn't just run away with Draco, since as Igor learned in Book 5, there's no escaping Voldemort...and besides if he had done that it would've guaranteed that Voldemort would his mother and father.

3.) Tied to that, is a scene in book 6 where Harry overhears Snape and Dumbledore arguing with each other about SOMETHING. Clearly, Snape is reluctant to carry out some task that Dumbledore has given him, and is getting frustrated. Of course, we can't be sure what that task is, but it is quite likely that Dumbledore knew about the Oath (he knew that Draco was trying to kill him), and that Snape was reluctant to carry it out. He had been caught, though...Snape could not have refused the Oath...it would've blown his cover as a double agent for Dumbledore. Snape realized that it would probably come to him having to kill Dumbledore at some point, but reluctantly.

4.) Keep in mind that earlier Snape SAVED Dumbledore's life. If Snape was so evil why didn't he just kill Dumbledore then and make it look like an accident?

5.) The confrontation in the tower. Dumbledore talks Draco out of killing him...he realizes that Draco isn't a killer, and can still be redeemed. Snape enters, and Dumbledore starts begging. Why? Dumbledore wasn't the sort who would beg for his life so pitifully (remember what he said about death in Book 1?). If Dumbledore knew about the oath, he realized that at this point, Snape was bound to fulfill it. Draco was unable to complete his task, so Snape had to do it for him, or both of them were as good as dead. Dumbledore was most likely begging Snape to kill him!

6.) Keep in mind that Dumbledore trusted Snape completely and absolutely. We have yet to find out why, for certain, but that bears mentioning. Also, Snape's role as double agent is essential to the Order.

7.) While fleeing Hogwarts, Harry tries to stop Snape, but Snape deflects every spell effortlessly. He tells Harry that he won't be able to win until he can cast spells nonverbally. Mockingly stated, yes, but it was something that would help Harry in the long run...it would make him realize one of his greatest shortcomings. Finally, when Harry called him a 'coward' Snape totally freaked out. I believe the book said he howled like a wounded animal. It actually PAINED Snape to be called a coward. Why did it affect him so much? Most likely because killing Dumbledore was the most difficult thing anyone had been forced to do in the entire series, and being called a coward by Harry was just pouring salt on the wound. Snape is anything but a coward!

Anyway, those are the reasons I feel that Snape isn't evil, and that in the end, he'll help Harry, and they might come to understand one another (though I doubt they'll ever like each other...)
Was this nerdy enough for you?
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. need condensed version
my attention span isn't long enough

:rofl:

:hi:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. If you read the entire post, your NQ (nerd quotient) goes up 200 points!
SWEET!
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. You bring up good points!
Like I said in response to another poster.. i'd be much more surprised if Snape actually turned out to be evil. Oh, now I can hardly wait for the next book to come out..
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RevolutionaryActs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. I heart your nerdiness.
:P
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Aww shucks...
:hug:
:blush:
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nothing wrong with being a nerd.
I'm such a big nerd that I spent $85 on an atlas of the world a few weeks ago.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think most of us have figured out a lot of that
as well. I think Dumbledore, of all people, needed to have Snape kill him in order to secure Snape's entry into Voldemort's circle. That way, Snape can report back at various times, and more importantly, appear to be a loyal follower of Voldemort.

I also think that he has a vendetta against Harry (not for killing, though) because Harry's father had been so mean to him through their years at Hogwarts. It's more sour grapes than hatred though, because he could have harmed Harry many times, and the only thing he did that was scurrilous was give him the textbook.

In the meantime, some hacker claims to have gotten into the 7th book and supposedly announced who dies in it. I don't think that the conclusions can be right, because as I've said elsewhere, if JK killed off any of the kids, I don't think that the last two movies would ever 1) get made into films, and 2) if they got made, their rpofits would tank because no one would want to see them, knowing who was going to die. I think that the "good guy" that will die is probably Hagrid, because while we would certainly miss the big guy, he is not integral to the world of Harry Potter as much as some of the others, though we might all care for him as a friend to the kids. On the other hand, There is always the possibility that it could be Lupin or another member of the Order.

We've already lost too many good and important people: the Potters, Sirius, Dumbledore, Cedric Diggory--and so few of the bad guys. I know JK was upset at herself for killing off someone else good and important, which she could have avoided, but hopefully, the series will end on a high note and not on a sad one to the extent it would be if one of the kids were killed.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. True, it would suck if the book ended as a complete downer...
Nice theories.
:)
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. first point*
snape would have lost his usefulness to voldemort had he killed harry

second point: i concede

third point: snape fucked himself

fourth: snape needed to keep up pretenses

fifth: draco was too weak to kill dumbledore to begin with and snape was bound by the oath. selfishness on snape's part or selflessnes on dumbledore's...take your pick

sixth: snape's double agent status was indeed essential to the order, but it was also essential to voldemort

seventh: snape is no coward, i have no analysis on this point

*the preceding post carries no judgment as to whether snape is good or evil. it is simply filled with advocacy for the devil and the opinions of a girl who's had a few beers
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. 2nd point still wins, and that's the most important one.
:P
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. disagree
snape got trapped...perhaps as a means of absolution

i say that has nothing to do with whether he is evil or good
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. i say it has a lot to do with it.
...it wasn't just about keeping up pretenses, Draco and his family's lives were in the balance as well.
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. but if snape were good
why would he enter the unbreakable curse? he should have simply professed faith in voldemort.

for that matter, why the fuck would voldemort send a kid after dumbledore (outside of vengance)? come on, it should have been rumble time
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. obviously voldemort was setting Draco up.
not sure if he was just trying to screw Draco over, or if he wanted to draw Snape into it to test him.
Snape had to enter the oath or it would've blown his cover. Bella would've ratted him out to Voldemort, and then he'd be on the outs with him.
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. that would give voldemort omniscience i'm not sure he has
no doubt he was trying to screw the malfoys, but entrapping snape follows a line of reasoning that depends on too much
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. i was just suggesting it. either way snape was screwed over.
if bellatrix hadn't been there, he might've been able to weasel out of the oath, but since she was there, he had to take it, or blow his cover, and pretty much fuck draco over in the process.
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. how did narcissa find out where he was anyway?
you'd think he might want to lay low
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. good question. wormtail was living with him, too...so i'm sure people
in voldemort's inner circle would know where to find him.
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. but why would voldemort want others to have that knowledge?
i'd want to hide snape away as to not allow such compromising situations
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. why was wormtail living with him, then?
:P
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fizzgig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. the dark lord does not explain his reasoning to the likes of you!
Edited on Sun Jun-24-07 02:02 AM by kagehime
:rofl:

really, i have no idea...voldemort could have put wormtail in snape's service and still not revealed his location :P

edit: no speel gud :P
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. english good speak i!
well, obviously narcissa and bellatrix knew where to find him. why is that important?
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
65. why send a kid? two reasons
1 - no one would suspect Draco of something that horrible. yes, no one trusts him, but few would suspect he was capable of murder

2 - Voldemort knows that once Draco kills someone, he will have power over Draco in several ways, and that he will have taken that most important and irrevocable step down the path to evil.

Also, Voldemort would know that Draco is very ambitious and would want to test him, and also that Draco's ambition would be a leverage point. Finally, should Draco fail and get captured/killed, he is more expendable than Snape.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. Very Interesting...
I am rereading the books in preparation for book 7--I will keep these points in mind as I read them (currently working my way through Goblet of Fire).
PS- Harry Potter Nerds Rule!!!:)
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
36. We really do, don't we?
:hug:
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
21. What do you think will happen to Snape in The Hallows?
Also, did you happen to read about the nutjob Gabriel who says he hacked into the Bloomsbury Pub. computer & knows who dies in The Hallows?

Major spoiler: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070621.wpotter0621/BNStory/Entertainment/?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20070621.wpotter0621

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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Won't read that. Nope. No way.
Had too many movies ruined for me that way.

http://www.threadless.com/product/844/Spoilt#top

I suspect that Snape dies protecting Harry. I'll find our soon.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. Snape dying to save Harry was my initial thought when JKR announced
Edited on Sun Jun-24-07 10:01 PM by katsy
that someone (main character/s) would die also.

on edit: Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers only last one year anyway.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. If that's a spoiler, it's a lame one. (no spoilers in this post).
That person vaguely speculates that one person dies and others don't. It's a vague and short spoiler. If he had the real book, you'd think he could come up with something more specific than that. I think it's fake.

:shrug:

Plus, that guy is an asshat. People have been reading Harry Potter for ten years. Spoiling it for everyone is lame.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. it's bullshit
pretty sure. if you really have the text, why not release the text? why a lame ass three line summary?

and as for the thing about Draco...inconceivable.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. I agree. you can't truly spoil HP in a few short sentences (no spoilers in post)
Take, for example, the huge ending in book 6...even if someone had told me who died before I read it, I would still have to read the entire book to figure out the specifics. The books are now so long that blurting out "so and so dies" just doesn't mean anything at this point.

As for the supposed spoiler, I read it out of curiosity but I agree that it's ridiculously lame and probably fake.
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
22. I once had this same idea myself
and thought it was totally original and genius until i found out a bunch of people already had the same idea
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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
25. It's obvious that Snape is still in love with Lily
And can't bring himself to harm her son for that reason.

I think Snape is conflicted, but not entirely evil. After all, Dumbledore continued to trust him when all evidence appears to indicate Snape is allied with the Dark Lord (not Dick Cheney: the other one).

I can't wait. I've already reserved my copy at the local bookstore, and I'll be there at midnight with all the rest of the Potter fans.
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #25
56. Ding ding ding ding!
Think you hit the nail on the head about Lily...she was kind to Snape, and while (as a hurt, angry adolescent male) he couldn't thank her, or show any appreciation for her kindness or defense of him (she IS a Girl, after all), I think he had some very strong feelings for her.

I think Snape is going to turn out to be a tragic hero...and Harry is going to have a lot more angst and confusion.
Nerd Warning:
I forget which psychologist it was...but isn't it during adolescence that kids learn about 'shades of grey' and that the world doesn't separate into black/white, Good/Evil?

Harry is due for some hard and painful reassessments, I'm afraid.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. I Thought One of the Best Touches in the Series
was Harry's discovery that during high school, is father was a complete jerk to Snape. It gave the relationships a lot more complexity.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #56
66. "during adolescence that kids learn about 'shades of grey'"
during adolescence that kids learn about 'shades of grey' and that the world doesn't separate into black/white, Good/Evil?

maybe that explains why so many conservatives can't seem to grasp anything beyond a black&white world (mostly white of course), and also why they seem to fall back on tantrums, name calling, and other problems - they are literally not mature enough.

:D

ok, back to HP.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
27. 8. He has yet to vote Republican.
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Rhythm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
28. Oktoberain and i were discussing this the other day, too...
She and i were both re-reading "Half Blood Prince" last week, to refresh our memories for the new book, and she and i came up with similar conclusions.

We think that Snape actually told Dumbledore about Draco's task, and the Oath, and Dumbledore told Snape that when the time came, to make sure that no harm came to Draco, because underneath it all, there is something Dumbledore had seen in him that was not evil, and therefore worth redeeming.

As literary devices go, Dumbledore had to die anyway... the 'beloved mentor' figure has to die for the budding hero finally emerge for the final battle/conflict.

I can't wait for the last book... I have no 'inside' information, but i feel like there will be at least one of the kids (but not one of the 'main' ones) that will die, and i agree that Hagrid might be on the chopping block. But i also think that in the end Snape will do something to redeem himself for his misdeeds by saving Harry in some fashion.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. I think so too...
cause of the argument Dumbledore had with Snape halfway through the book...I think Snape was getting stressed out over potentially having to kill Dumbledore...
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #28
63. Other theories have one of the main ones die at the end
Which go back to the chess game at the end of Book 1. Ron sacrifices himself so Harry can go on to the final battle (Quirrel/Voltie).
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Rhythm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
29. He's got opinions, too...
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
30. All the proof we need is the Unbreakable Oath.
The author went to this extreme length to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Snape is in league with the Death Eaters. Therefore, he isn't.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Good point.
He's so obviously evil that he CAN'T be evil. :)
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
35. You and I are on the same page...
Even though it's reluctantly, and I loathe Snape because he treated Harry terribly from the very instant he met him, based only upon who his parents were. Harry was a good kid from the beginning, and he never gave him a chance.
I trust Dumbledore, so I guess I have to trust Snape too. But I am curious to find out why Dumbledore trusted him so unwavering, and also, why Dumbledore didn't confide in someone from the order what was going on.
And don't be embarrassed about this. I am the biggest dork ever when it comes to Harry Potter. You're not alone.
Duckie
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Yay! Fellow geek!
:hug:
:D
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coffeenap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
37. I think I might be able to out-dork you:
1. We only read the adult British versions--no pics, original words.

2. We will not see the movies or look at the trailers.

3. We read the books out loud, together, multiple times.

We = a 13 and a 17 year old plus a very-much-older mom.

How'd I do?? There's more if I need it to qualify.:blush:
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. Damn
Now I have to go back & read Box 6 again. :crazy:

:hi: from one HP fan to another!

dg
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
39. All Sound Points.
I will also add the following suspicions:

1) The compelling reason that Snape needs to remain a double agent is that it is the only way to discover all seven horcruxes of Voldemort.

2) Dumbledore had prepared and set up horcruxes of his own to enable him to return from death.

I guess we'll all find out soon.
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Neoma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. IF Dumbledore did that, I wouldn't think him as smart.
Splitting your soul? He was against it, and not to mention that he didn't know about horcruxes until harry got that memory.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. And he'd be a killer.
You can only create a horcrux by killing someone.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Dumbledore doesn't need to return from death, and here's why:
Remember all of the portraits of previous Headmasters and Headmistresses in Dumbledore's office? We are shown how the subjects of those portraits retain their intelligence and ability to advise and assist, even when the physical body is gone (for example, the portrait of Phineas Nigellus Black, Sirius' ancestor, helped to keep an eye on the OotP headquarters and often had animated conversations with Dumbledore and other people within the office.)

At the end of book 6, we were shown Dumbledore's portrait snoozing away in the frame shortly after his death--in fact, the appearance of the portrait proved beyond a doubt that he truly WAS dead. But since his portrait will retain Dumbledore's intelligence and knowledge, it's entirely possible for Dumbledore to guide Harry without actually being alive and able to spellcast. At the very least, he can tell Harry for sure whether or not Snape truly turned traitor, or if his death was a tragic but necessary consequence of protecting both Draco and Snape's status as a spy.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #47
58. I Suspect You're Right About The Moving Portrait
Wishful thinking on my part. It just seemed premature for Dumbledore to die so suddenly. It didn't have a sense of closure.
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JoDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #47
62. Not so sure
Remember, on the tower as Draco was struggling with himself to carry out the task of killing Dumbledore, Dumbledore told him that the Order of the Pheonix could protect him and his mother. They could help them fake their deaths, and then the Death Eaters wouldn't come after them. Sort of a magical witness protection program.

Where better to hide Dumbledore then where part of his intelligence would wind up anyway in the event of his death? Snape appears to kill Dumbledore, fulfulling the vow. A fake body or some sort of glamour spell is used for the funeral. Dumbledore uses a spell to hide out in the painting.

And they've never found Dumbledore's wand, which according to the song the drunken Hagrid and Slughorn sang, must be found and broken in two in the event of a wizard's or witch's death.
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. I'm sure
I had the pleasure of seeing JK Rowlings at Radio City Music Hall, and she assured us Dumbledore is dead. He will not be returning.She didn't mention the portrait, and I believe we will hear from him from the portrait, but there is no way he is coming back.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
43. I disagree. I think Snape is evil
Killing Potter would indeed make Snape a dick, but instead he murdered the only person who truly believed in him. We're talking about killing the man who not only gave Snape a second chance by saving his greasy ass from Azkaban, but also set him up with a respectable job as well. In book 6 the SOB finally gets the DoDA position and what does he do? He kills his boss! That kind of backstabbing is just plain evil. There's really no way to justify this unless a big plot twist is revealed and Dumbledore is either alive or proof is given that this is what Dumbledore ordered Snape to do.

FWIW, I hope there's a big plot twist to all of this. Not so much because I like Snape (although I adore the actor who plays him in the movies) but because I hate the idea of Dumbledore dying from betrayal.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Snape HAD to kill Dumbledore! He had no choice!
It was either that or doom himself, Draco, Narcissa and Lucius all to death, and Dumbledore would almost certainly have been killed by any one of the (many) death eaters that were present if Snape didn't do it himself.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I think Snape did have a choice
Snape could have called off the other death eaters and let Draco kill Dumbledore instead. This way, Draco would have followed Voldermort's orders and Snape would have meet his vow obligations without being the one to actually kill Dumbledore.

Other things Snape could have done:

1. break the enchantment on the door to the tower which would have allowed the members of the Order to get through and fight off the death eaters.

2. Say "screw it" and sacrifice himself and the Malfoys in the belief that Dumbledore and Harry could end Voldermort.

3. This book repeatedly mentioned how students were learning how to do spells without speaking. Why not silently send Dumbledore's wand back to Dumbledore's hand?

4. Keep a much closer eye on Draco


Regardless, Snape chose his best interest over the greater good. At this point, this seems to be par for the course for him since it sounds like he was a death eater and then decided to switch teams when he go caught.

Either way, I'm really excited about the next book! :)
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. In response...
Letting Draco kill Dumbledore: Draco COULDN'T kill Dumbledore. His resolve wavered. Draco failed in his task, and under the terms of the oath, it was either kill or be killed.

In reference to the other things...

1.) That doesn't spare him and Draco from the effects of the Oath. Any choice other than 'kill Dumbledore because Draco screwed it up and lost his nerve' means death for Snape and Draco.

2.) Dumbledore wouldn't have wanted Draco to die for his sake...and it's doubtful he would've wanted Snape to die for him either. Dumbledore clearly thought there was something in Draco worth saving...and who's to say that the 'greater good' was for Dumbledore to be spared?

3.) Again, it doesn't spare Snape or Draco from the effects of the Oath. It's interesting to note that when Harry tries to stop Snape from escaping, Snape helpfully reminds Harry that until he can learn to cast spells silently, he won't have a chance.

4.) Doesn't matter. Doesn't spare either from the Oath.

Again, who's to say the 'greater good' wasn't Dumbledore's death? If Snape were on the side of the good guys, his killing of Dumbledore would give him even more access to Dumbledore and strengthen his relationship with him. In the end, it might be this closeness to Voldemort that helps bring about his end. Also, Draco failed to kill Dumbledore, and keep in mind how much he suffered mentally throughout book 6...he became sickly, scared, lonely. He walked the walk throughout the first 5 books, but when it came time to talk the talk, Draco couldn't hack it. He might be helpful to Harry in the end, because his failure to murder Dumbledore shows that he could be redeemed.
Remember also that Dumbledore completely trusted Snape, though we have yet to learn why. I'm sure we will learn why, and it will be very important.
I can't wait for the book to come out, of course :D
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #52
67. We should also keep in mind things that Dumbledore always insisted
Such as, there are things far worse than death. And, the view that his own life is expendable.

I do not doubt for one instant that he would gladly sacrifice his own life, if he believed it could redeem Draco's "soul". (Meaning, preventing Draco from becoming a murderer and irrevocably evil).
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. yes, I think I am in the "Snape is evil" camp...
he is bound to protect Draco, but he also seems like the type of guy who would betray Dumbledore, after all, he doesn't really trust anyone, anyway.

but it has continually bothered me that Dumbledore would allow himself to be so weakened at the end of book 6 (during all the spells, etc) that Snape was able to kill him. It made no sense to me that Dumbledore, who was so powerful in many of the other books (although at times blind to certain events, despite his wisdom), would be caught so much with his guard down.


:shrug:

It should be interesting to see if Rowling resolves or balances this element of the plot with some other complex development - I have to say she continually surprises me with some of her major plot twists...

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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Dumbledore knew that Draco was trying to kill him...
it's uncertain if he knew about the Oath, though it seems likely.
Dumbledore was greatly weakened when he went to the cave with Harry. He was vulnerable at the time. Snape is a very powerful wizard, so he would be able to capitalize on that weakness. I think Dumbledore was prepared to die. He wanted to make sure that Draco wouldn't be the one to kill him (Draco was weak, which showed that he wasn't completely evil), and that it would be Snape.
If Dumbledore had to choose between his own life, and Snape's and Draco's along with the extremely valuable role Snape plays for the Order, which comes out on top?
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
50. If Rowlings wanted to go down in history
Then she would NEVER answer the question of Snapes' loyalties.

Instead, she would give us hints both ways, but never really be decisive.

It would be downright Shakespearean.

Think about it: the good books we've read and movies we've watched -- Harry Potter certainly no exception -- aren't the ones where all the questions are wrapped up at the end. They're the ones we walk away from asking each other, "Did Hamlet really see his father's ghost, or was he crazy? Was he crazy for the right reasons? Maybe Hamlet was just an asshole who got lucky? And why did Ophelia kill herself, because there are so many possibilities?"
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #50
59. Noooooo. Rowling is no Shakespeare.
And this isn't supposed to be a tragedy. A drama yes, which means tragic moments and comedic moments, but not a full-blown tragedy. I think there would be rioting in the streets--seriously. There are a lot of people who take these books very, very seriously. :scared:
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
54. Yes! I am right with you.
None of my friends believe me, but I know we will be vindicated (a few hours after my Deluxe Edition foil embossed Deathly Hallows arrives from Amazon).

I thought it was incredibly touching what Snape had done for Draco. Or rather what Dumbledore, IMHO, had done for him. He gave up his life, and insisted that Snape, whom he trusted implicitly, do the deed, because he knew there was still hope for Draco, that deep down he was redeemable. It was a very "Jesus-y" moment for Dumbledore.

And anyway, I think Snape (and, uh, Draco, if that doesn't make me a complete and utter perv) is dreamy. :blush:

There. I've come out of the closet as a big ol' Harry Potter dork, despite what I posted many months ago about Mr. Engel eagerly awaiting Book 6. ;)
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
55. I don't like Snape
(he's far too snotty for my tastes) but I pretty much agree with your assessment.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
60. I agree that Snape isn't evil (my theory about what will happen here)
I think Snape will sacrifice himself to save Harry and that Snape will be the one to die.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
61. Agree, AND, here's another point you didn't think of.
Snape was in the 'unpopular kid' camp at school, friendless and beset upon by all (well maybe Lily didn't do any of the besetting-upon but she wasn't exactly a friend). This is going to naturally make him a bit more of a sympathetic character. Rowlings is really good at giving us satisfying plotlines, and the redemption of the outcast is a strong one, very archetypical. The other way around, not so much.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
64. I agree 100%
in fact, Dumbledore may have asked Snape to kill him, not only to save Draco from it, but also so that Snape will be further trusted by the Death Eaters.

Snape had even more opportunities to hurt Harry, such as when Quirrel was trying to make him fall in the first book, Snape actually saved him and could easily have done nothing.
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Beer Snob-50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
69. haven't read down all the points by others but...
is it possible that dumbledore is not really dead? maybe a double? giving voldemort a sense of security and it all comes to a head in book seven when the real dumbledore comes back and kicks voldemorts ass?
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