Prove to me that the Sex Pistols weren't the ultimate punk band

[johnnie]

The Clash was cute but not punk, anything past 1977 doesn't count. The Ramones were a good pop band, but far away from "punk". So besides that crap, who was a better punk band?

[MilesColtrane]

1. A true punk band...

...would have never been recorded and would have spontaneously combusted.

[johnnie]

2. They were recorded once

And spontaneously combusted less than a year later. Any other punk bands do this?

[HuskerDU]

3. Heartbreakers

Though they had rent-party reunions on and off for years.

[HuskerDU]

4. Heartbreakers were the ultimate punk band because they

swore they had nothing to do with punk and in fact had everything to do with punk. Plus Johnny Thunders spent his life strung-out playing dumps for chump change while Johnny Rotten rode around in limos waxing poetically about what is and what is not punk.

However, I am aware that I am alone in this opinion.

[Jamastiene]

5. Well, The Ramones came first...

That's how the Sex Pistols were born. :P

Btw, The Ramones were fucking great.

[HuskerDU]

6. Nah the New York Dolls gave birth to the Pistols. At least

according to mitchum from the other day's 'Best punk band not named the Clash' thread.

'there would have been no Pistols without the Dolls. Hell, Steve Jones wouldn't have even had a guitar without the Dolls!'

Ramones were fucking great, luv 'em.

[Jamastiene]

9. Truthfully, it probably took both the Dolls and Ramones.

There are accounts of the Ramones touring and the Sex Pistols loving the Ramones and learning how to play by playing along to Ramones albums. Or at least that is what they themselves said in The Great Rock and Roll Swindle. Probably took both.

[billyskank]

7. I did prove just that very thing once

but I've lost my notes. I can't remember the formulae.

[Jamastiene]

10. ...

:rofl: I love it.

[retread]

8. Uhhh. What was the question? n/t

[RetroLounge]

11. You know, the reason the Pistols are bettrer than the Clash?

The Clash were too wimpy to OD on heroin and stab their girlfriends to death.

Case closed.

RL

[supernova]

13. I'll tell you what's punk

performing for 25 years in a R&R lifestyle with an undiagnosed heart birth defect and spontaneously dying of it while only in your mid-40s.

[RetroLounge]

14. Are you talking Strummer?

Saw him solo in Chicago, he was amazing...

RL

[supernova]

18. Yes, I'm so mad

that I never had the money to see them when I was younger. Now that I have well, more resources than I did, he's gone. :cry:

[abq e streeter]

46. Actually solo, or Strummer and the Mescaleros?

Saw them at the Metro, 1999. Same show, Retro lounge? If so, yes, it was amazing. If you actually did see him solo, that must have been no less amazing.

[RetroLounge]

52. No, it was pre 1990

But it was at the Metro...

:hi:

RL

[johnnie]

17. Two words

Combat Rock.

"Nuff said.

[tigereye]

22. yeah, but London Calling cancels it out!

;)

[johnnie]

25. Ok, I'll agree with that

But at least when the Pistols got together for the money they called it "The Filthy Lucre" tour and made no bones about it that they sold out.

[johnnie]

15. At least the original Pistols hearts still work

:P

Sid was nothing more than a prop.

[Sugar Smack]

16. What you see, you can get

Nothing's free, nothing's said
Don't be fooled by the signs
Don't read in between the lines

What you're gonna say
What you're gonna do
Now you've missed out once again
But I thought you knew

Oh you silly thing
You've really gone and done it now
Oh you silly thing
You really gone and done it now

Trouble here, trouble there
People stop just to stare
What's the use of wasting time
Just move on, leave 'em all behind

What you're gonna say
What you're gonna do
Now you've missed out once again
But I thought you knew

Oh you silly thing
You've really gone and done it now
Oh you silly thing
You've really gone and done it now

Can't you ever depend
On someone you call a friend
When you see the naked eyes
You don't even ask 'em why
You don't even ask 'em why

Oh you silly thing
You've really gone and done it now
Oh you silly thing
You've really gone and done it now

[johnnie]

19. Oh yeah?

It was on the good ship Venus
By Christ, you should've seen us
The figurehead was a whore in bed
And the mast was a mammoth penis

The captain of this lugger
He was a dirty bugger
He wasn't fit to shovel shit
From one place to another


Friggin' in the riggin'
Friggin' in the riggin'
Friggin' in the riggin'
There was fuck all else to do

The captain's name was Morgan
By Christ, he was a gorgon
Ten times a day sweet tunes he'd play
On his fucking organ

The first mate's name was Cooper
By Christ he was a trooper.
He jerked and jerked until he worked
Himself into a stupor

Friggin' in the riggin'
Friggin' in the riggin'
Friggin' in the riggin'
There was fuck all else to do

The second mate was Andy
By Christ, he had a dandy
Till they crushed his cock with a jagged rock
For cumming in the brandy

The cabin boy was Flipper
He was a fucking nipper
He stuffed his ass with broken glass
And circumcised the skipper

Friggin' in the riggin'
Friggin' in the riggin'
Friggin' in the riggin'
There was fuck all else to do

The Captain's wife was Mabel
To fuck she was not able
So the dirty shits, they nailed her tits
Across the barroom table

The Captain had a daughter
Who fell in deep sea water
Delighted squeals revealed that eels
Had found 'er sexual quarters

Friggin' in the riggin'
Friggin' in the riggin'
Friggin' in the riggin'
There was fuck all else to do

[Sugar Smack]

21. I am an anti-Christ

I am an anarchist,
don't know what I want
but I know how to get it.
I wanna destroy the passer by
'cos I wanna be anarchy,
Ho dogs body


Anarchy for the UK
It's coming sometime and maybe
I give a wrong time stop a traffic line.
Your future dream is a shopping scheme
cause I wanna be anarchy,
It's in the city


How many ways to get what you want
http://www.metrolyrics.com>

I use the best I use the rest
I use the NME.
I use anarchy
'cause I wanna be anarchy,

Its the only way to be

Is this the MPLA
or is this the UDA
or is this the IRA
I thought it was the UK
or just another country
another council tenancy.


I wanna be an anarchist
(oh what a name)
And l wanna be an anarchist
(I get pissed destroy)

*giggle*

[Sugar Smack]

12. I can't.

I just can't.

[tigereye]

20. wow, Haven't seen this argument in a while!

:hi:


well, all I can say is that the Ramones actually influenced a lot of the other bands, particularly the Clash, and possibly the Pistols. I think they were in existence prior to the other two.


I think the Pistols have a certain level of cred, but seemed more "produced" than the Clash.

I guess I tend to think of the Clash as a different variety of punk than the Ramones, but the Ramones were the seminal, cool idea band.


The ultimate - whose songs really stand out? The Clash. That's how I feel about it, as much as I love the Ramones.

[johnnie]

23. I love the Ramones

I remember cutting school, dressed in my biker leather, torn jeans and spiked hair and going to see "Rock and Roll High School". I also remember getting a strange look form the cashier while buying "Never mind the Bullocks.."

The Ramones were a great band, but just seemed more Rock and Roll to me than "Punk". They were really like surf music to me.

[tigereye]

28. one of their bios I read recently gave a better feel for their innovations...

I really think American punk is a totally different animal than British punk, probably influenced more by 60s pop than the Brits were, certainly.


Oddly the Ramones, despite the top-speed innovative barre chords, and goofy lyrics, were almost kind of post-modernist in their punk.

(wow, I'm getting deep here - I'm waiting for Kool ZIp to show and give you the true dissertation!) ;)


I know I can still remember how exciting it was the first time I heard the Pistols - no one snarled like that.


But The Clash just held up better to me. They seemed smarter, and more political.

ah well, we'll just have to have different views of this one! :hi:

[johnnie]

29. Well, when I posted the original OP...

I was drinking beer, smoking cigarettes and watching "The Filth and The Fury"..LOL. A bit of my old self came out and I posted what I felt at the time.

It's true though, The Clash were more of a "thinking man's" punk band in regards to politics, but the Pistols were more in your face. "God Save the Queen" was a bit more upfront than anything The Clash did. But as I have said, I like The Clash, but I think The Sex Pistols were more "punk" at the time than any others.

I'm talking when "punk rock" was an official name of a certain musical philosophy. There were many bands that could have fit that genre' well before 1977. If Elvis wasn't "punk" at first, then I don't know who was.

[Sugar Smack]

30. Have you read "Please Kill Me"?

Good book. I read the entirety at B&N.

[ghostsofgiants]

33. I was thinking about picking that up the other day.

I've heard good things.

[johnnie]

34. That is the book by Nancy's mom right?

I haven't read it.

Did you get to see any of their shows? I saw one in 93 or whatever it was and it was a friggin' blast. Every time any of them saw anyone with a Sid shirt, they would all point and laugh and rag on whoever it was. I also have some unused tickets from a few years ago because they canceled the show.

I got to see Steve on his "Fire and Gasoline" tour and had a chance to meet him in the lobby. I had him sign my ticket and he just printed "Steve Jones"..LOL. I asked why he didn't do anything off the first album (Mercy) and he just said "That was a whole different trip man". I cracked up because he just sounded so spent.

[ghostsofgiants]

35. No, it's by Legs McNeil.

http://www.amazon.com/Please-Kill-Me-Uncensored-History/dp/0140266909

[Sugar Smack]

36. No, that one's called "And I don't want to live this life"

about Miss Nancy.

[BarenakedLady]

37. I read that one

:hi:

[Sugar Smack]

39. Me too. It gave detailed insight into the family scenes

of Nancy, especially. Jesus god. She must have been a handful, but then, there was Courtney Love wanting to be Nancy in the movie. Her autobiographies say she tried out for the part. :o It would have been just right. She could have matched Chloe Webb, I think.

[johnnie]

42. Oh, ok

No, didn't read either. But I remember it happening (punk rock). It died pretty quick in my opinion.

[HuskerDU]

43. That book is fantastic. Highly recommend it to anyone interested

in the subject. Plus, it has the Heartbreakers on the cover!

Why not the 'Breakers as the ultimate punk band? Johnny Thunders, Jerry Nolan and Richard Hell were on the scene before any of the brits and even the Ramones. They played on the infamous 'Anarchy in the UK' tour w/ the Pistols, Clash and Damned (w/Hell replaced by Billy Rath by this point), recorded one classic lp 'LAMF' and imploded.

Pistols manager Malcome McLaren had previously worked with Thunders' New York Dolls briefly (and disasterously), loved them as well as Richard Hell's safety-pinned fashion. He took Doll Sylvain's guitar, went back to England and formed the Pistols and the rest is history. And as I mentioned before, Johnny Thunders swore till his death that he had nothing to do with punk.

[abq e streeter]

47. Just partially redeemed yourself,

dismissing the Clash as "cute" is too ridiculous to deserve a reply, but the surf reference with the Ramones is very perceptive; I've always wondered why more people couldn't hear what to me is obvious. I love surf music, and the Ramones always sounded like an east coast variation of it. Plenty of room in this world to appreciate lots of different music. I like the Ramones, respect the power and passion of Never Mind the Bollocks , love everything Strummer was involved in, including of course the Clash, and ya know what, I adore the Beachboys and surf in general... And a couple dozen other genres too.

[johnnie]

49. Oh, I like The Clash

I was being a bit sarcastic when I called them "cute". Sometimes you have to spark a fire to get a discussion. But I also think they got too commercial with "Combat Rock". I do think that is still a great album though.

[abq e streeter]

50. Fair enough

Combat Rock is not my fave but still good. I don't necessarily see it as being intentionally commercial although typically for a lot of good bands, they're weakest cuts became the biggest commercial hits. I don't mind though; if Should I stay... and Casbah being all over the radio got even one person to check out their earlier stuff, and become aware of what the Clash stood for, then it was worth the radio saturation of , by Clash standards, relatively inconsequential stuff.

[ghostsofgiants]

24. The Pistols had a few decent songs, and spent their time trying to piss off as many people...

As they could. They talked about anarchy but weren't actually anarchists, and basically did what they did to shock people. To me they always seemed more about image and fashion than anything else. I'd call that shit poser, not punk.

[JVS]

26. Isn't that the whole point of punk

:shrug:

[johnnie]

27. Exactly

That's what the punk movement was about. It was all about image and giving the finger to the corporate music business while at the same time making fun of the music industry. The Pistols did it to the tee. That's what it was all about, shitting on the Peter Framptons.

[ghostsofgiants]

31. Yes, it was about giving the finger to the music business...

But that doesn't mean purposely booking shows at redneck bars and calling the rednecks faggots in the hope that fights will break out. There's a difference between being punk and being dickheads.

And having Vivienne Westwood design your clothes and picking Johnny Rotten and Sid Vicious because they "look" punk isn't punk either. It's marketing.

[johnnie]

38. Well, that's what punk was

Did you ever get the feeling you've been cheated? The whole fucking thing was a big put-on and people fell for it and still are falling for it. It was The Great Rock and Roll Swindle. That's why I think The Pistols were *the* punk rock band of all time.

These days the kids actually look at punk as a serious musical genre', but that's not what it was back then. To spike your hair, pierce your tits and play bar chords does not make you a punk rock band.

[billyskank]

32. To be fair, John Lydon did admit that he was a "big fake cunt." (his words)

[johnnie]

40. Exactly

That's the funniest part of it all.

[JVS]

45. The funniest part of all was GG Allin

He perfected the act to the point where it was impossible to have any earnest fans, but merely people who enjoy the spectacle of it all.

[swag]

41. I can't do that, but I will assert that the

Sex Pistols were the reductio ad absurdum of "Rock" and Pussy Galore were the reductio ad absurdum or "Rock and Roll." I do adore both those bands.

[tigereye]

44. well, the fascinating thing is that the youth now think that hardcore is punk

and they seem to mainly know the Ramones as the black-jacketed godfathers of punk. Some of em really don't have the Brit history down.

I've had some of em "not get" the Clash.


It's like the elders of Civil Rights and some of we feminists say, "these youth don't know their history!" :rofl:


So I've had to give a few of em a tutorial!



It's so funny, young guys in the CD aisle practically have a heart attack when I tell then I saw the Ramones, more than once. And I tell em, honey, you couldn't NOT see the Ramones back then. They toured incessantly!

[abq e streeter]

48. had a similar reaction with an 8th grade student about 3 years ago

"You SAW the Ramones"? She thought that was just impossibly coo-el.

[Book Lover]

51. Because the New York Dolls were there first (nm)

[LostInAnomie]

53. Getting the award for "ultimate punk band" is like getting the award for...

... most delicious human turd.