Archbishop apologizes for giving Communion to gays dressed as nuns

[ohiosmith]

Julian Guthrie, Chronicle Staff Writer

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

(10-16) 21:58 PDT San Francisco -- It was a typical Sunday Mass until two men in heavy makeup and nuns' habits received Holy Communion from San Francisco's top Catholic official.

On Oct. 7, Archbishop George Niederauer delivered the Eucharist to members of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence - an activist group whose motto is "go forth and sin some more" - prompting cries of outrage from conservatives across the country and Catholics in San Francisco.

In response to a request for comment, Niederauer released a letter of apology addressed to "Catholics of the Archdiocese of San Francisco and to Catholics at large" in which he said he did not realize his mistake until after the Mass at Most Holy Redeemer Church in the Castro district.

more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/17/MNS1SR1HF.DTL

[Marrah_G]

1. Okay is he BLIND?

Seriously... is he?

[Richard Steele]

5. Probably just "running on autopilot", would be my guess.

How many hundreds of thousands of times must he have
given communion in his career? His hands were probably
going through the motions while his brain was thinking
about other things.

[hunter]

2. Oops.

Umbrage Alert! Umbrage Alert!
Looks like we're in a heapin' load of trouble as those who like to get outraged at us are outraged again. Or, at least something the Archbishop of San Francisco did.

http://thesisters.org

[MrCoffee]

3. you're going to hell for tricking an archbishop like that...shame on you!

[ohiosmith]

4. It's a bad habit I know, but I can't control myself.

[Parche]

6. That Is Nunsense

Outrageous
Sackreligious
Blasphemous
Burn In Hell


Reverend : Hal E. Lewya Church Of Heineken



:hi:

[begin_within]

8. Nunsense is habit-forming

Rue McClanahan was pretty funny in it! Have you seen the movie "Dark Habits" (1983) by Pedro Almodovar?

[xchrom]

7. isn't that just wonderful! n/t

[CreekDog]

12. No, it sucks n/t

[xchrom]

15. i'm an episcopalian and firmly believe that all are welcome at god's table.

[CreekDog]

22. Well, why do you believe that?

1) why do you believe in communion, is that based on the bible?

2) the bible says certain things about communion, including that care should be taken that nobody take communion "to their own damnation"

When you consider that you believe in communion because the bible and Jesus instituted it, then not heeding the other things it says about communion (which indicate that not everyone should partake in every instance FOR THEIR OWN GOOD), then YOU are picking and choosing which words said about communion apply to the communion rather than God.

It is not wrong to limit communion to protect people's souls --the idea is not to limit communion permanently, but to encourage repentance and belief so that communion is taken to salvation rather than damnation.

Sorry, I didn't make the rules...and I'm Lutheran.

[Book Lover]

24. Lutheran? Then excuse me, but why do you care

what happens in a Catholic Mass? And why should Catholics listen to you?

[CreekDog]

27. Because it was Holy Communion, part of the Christian Church

I care. I don't consider myself separate from the Roman Catholic Church.

Why should Catholics care? Perhaps because many agree with me about Holy Communion, that it is Christ's Body and Blood because he said it is. I have two messages from my Roman Catholic colleagues at work that praised my letter to the SF Chronicle journalist correcting his statement about communion that the bread and wine only "represent" the body and blood.

And my two colleagues are very liberal, but they are Catholic and faithwise, I don't have any difference with them.

[Book Lover]

33. Hang on - you don't get to decide that on your own, you know

If you want to profess your faith as a Roman Catholic, then get thee to RCIA classes. But if you are part of the Lutheran faith, then you are not a Roman Catholic. There are significant theological differences between the two faiths that your mere feelings do not bridge.

[CreekDog]

54. What don't I get to decide?

1) That I don't have any difference of opinion on this matter than two of my Catholic friends? I don't have to attend RCIA classes (which I have Buster) to know this already.

2) That I can't have an opinion on Holy Communion? No teaching of the Roman Catholic Church says that I should neither care nor value the Eucharist --far from it, I'm expected, Catholic or not, to value it, regard it and partake of it providing proper examination.

3) That I cannot say that "Catholics" should care about Holy Communion? Again, Roman Catholic theology does not say that a non-Catholic can't value communion and expect Roman Catholics to value it also.

So, you are wrong on all three points. I grant you that the Lutheran Confessions are different in significant points than Roman Catholic theology, thankfully, on this issue, despite theological differences, there is much ground for agreement on why communing the "sisters" is problematic.

[madeline_con]

66. Why should anyone listen to Catholics?

so NYA!

[CreekDog]

86. People who want to take communion in a Catholic Church, like these "sisters" did

[madeline_con]

110. I was taught Christians welcome everyone.

But some southern churches teach that Catholics aren't Christians. :shrug:

[xchrom]

28. i see you're point of view as a sickness in the faith.

why has it been ok to discriminate against gay and lesbian people -- it's wrong -- it's superstitious and it's backwards.

i will not defend backwardness and inhumanity because you think it's biblical.

the bible can and has been used to justify many things.

maybe it's time for you to act like christ and heal the leper within you. the samaritan leper.

[CreekDog]

31. I was talking about their costumes, not their sexuality

If you came to communion dressed as a nun and were not a nun, you shouldn't be served, if you came to communion dressed in any Halloween costume, I don't think you should be served if you are mocking the Lord's Table.

And you are judging *me* by the way, which I can handle, it goes both ways, but some folks think its okay for them to judge me but not okay for me to judge if it doesn't agree with them. To them: Hypocrite!

[xchrom]

35. you believe something that is patently backwards and superstitious.

do you really believe god to be so puny and peevish to care about a nun's costume?

that's about as distasteful as it gets right there if you ask me.

[CreekDog]

53. If you wear a costume in order to make fun or distract from communion

You are absolutely correct --God cares not about your clothes. In this case, he would care about why you wore those clothes.

Just as if I went to a poor parish and I wore ordinary or worse clothes so that nobody would think that in my own wealth I was judging them, that would not be who I was, but because I did it to protect others or to not cause them concern, it is my intention that would be judged.

That's my understanding.

But I saw nothing in the press release that said anything about the men going to communion to receive the body and blood of the lord for the forgiveness of sins and in rememberance of Jesus. The press release was about the "Sisters of..." and about what they did and about everything else BUT Holy Communion.

[xchrom]

57. ok -- you're really stretching here -- for the superstitious.

unholy is the discrimination by the church against gays and lesbian people.

that's why the particular costume.

further -- people have been wearing outlandish costumes poking fun and ridiculing the church for a very long, long time.

you -- we -- are also sanctioned against judging -- and leaving that to god -- but no -- in the best traditon of those who want wield bible and, tradition, and god as a weapon to strike at those who make you uncomfortable.

your dislike of the sisters is in and of itself telling -- and it ain't good.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Why not?

"If you came to communion dressed as a nun and were not a nun, you shouldn't be served, if you came to communion dressed in any Halloween costume, I don't think you should be served if you are mocking the Lord's Table."

How is wearing a costume mocking the "Lord's Table."

"And you are judging *me* by the way, which I can handle, it goes both ways, but some folks think its okay for them to judge me but not okay for me to judge if it doesn't agree with them."

Well, yeah, you've yet to come up with a reasonable argument, so we basically have to come to the logical conclusion.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

94. I'm a Lutheran...

and yes, you did, make the rules. At least that one.

There is not a syllable in the Bible where Jesus says that people can take communion "to their damnation." Paul suggests later that people must be "worthy" in order to partake of the body and blood of Christ. The minute you're worth enough, you let me know. Okie Dokie? Paul's suggestion is that people should practice reflection and repentance.

He didn't say you can't take communion if you're not Missouri Synod.
He didn't say you can't take communion if your gay or dressed as a nun.

It is a fabrication - and a despicable one at that - to suggest that some people ought to be allowed to judge whether other people are deserving enough to take communion.

[CreekDog]

104. If you are a Lutheran, then you should take back the lie in your post

You claim that I LIED but I never said what you stated I said.

I said Jesus instituted Communion. See the post, I said that.

I said the Bible cautions people not to take the body and blood to their damnation (I did not say that I was quoting Jesus, I was quoting the bible 1 Corinthians Ch. 11)

And I never said you can't take communion if you're not Missouri Synod, what's the matter with you?
And I never said you can't take communion if you are gay.
And I never said you can't take communion if you're dressed as a nun (duh, that would exclude nuns)

But I did say I don't think one should be communed if they are making a spectacle by coming to the communion rail or altar in a costume, no, not a uniform, and no, not the clothes of your occupation --a costume. Did Jesus or Paul say you can't come to communion in costume? No, but is it consistent with the teachings on communion for the sake of the sacrament and the sake of the soul partaking to withhold communion if the pastor thinks they are mocking it, and therefore, maybe taking it to their damnation because they may not believe it or in Jesus --then that is appropriate.

So, tell you what, let's you and I speak to your pastor about my statement and about yours, you know, where you accuse me of lying and that I said Jesus said (or made rules) when you knew that I was quoting the Book of Corinthians, the Word of God, written by Paul. Tell your pastor that before you run me down for something I did not do.

I should be in confession this Saturday afternoon, I think based on what you wrote about me, to try to win a freaking argument, that you should be in confession too.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

106. Pretty Puny God you've got there...

I don't think one should be communed if they are making a spectacle by coming to the communion rail or altar in a costume

In other words, people should be denied the sacrement if they don't pass your personal purity test. It's good to know that since the Lord God Almighty is busy, he's asked Creekdog and his ilk to do his heavy lifting.

That guy! They one in drag!! He can't have the sacrement!!!

...and since I'm a Lutheran, I don't go to confession. But I have no doubt you think I should go, because you've appointed yourself arbiter of who's a sinner and who is not.

[CreekDog]

112. Confession is in the Lutheran Confessions, encouraged by Luther

It strikes me that you are claiming to be a Lutheran without knowing the confessions that state that confession is a good thing.

Luther said, "...and let penance be as it may." with regard to confession, you'll note that he did not say that "confession" did not matter --it most certainly does.

This is most certainly true.

And if your pastor does not provide confession and absolution, yes, one on one, you should ask for it, it is a very Lutheran thing to have.

Finally, regarding the sacrament, my God is not puny, the efficacy of his sacrament is dependent upon him and his promise, not the pastors or partakers --that said, because of the "damnation" language in the bible, which you did not address, it is the church on earth's and the believer's responsibility to take care in regards to the body and blood of Christ.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

114. Dependent upon him and his promise...

and whether or not I'm wearing a dress at the time I ask forgiveness.

Your god is not homophobic. You are. Confess that.

[CreekDog]

118. I am not homophobic and I never asked anyone to confess sexual orientation as a sin

By the way, I know NOT ONE LUTHERAN PASTOR who does not hear or is not willing to hear private confession. If it had no value or was harmful, I doubt that so many would do it, and I know pastors of all stripes, hard core confessionals to easy going "rock band on the altar is fine with me" pastors. All of them hear confessions --I'll bet you a box of donuts that your pastor hears confession too. My parish just happens to encourage it and have weekly hours for confession on Saturday of which I should but usually do not avail myself of.

And you don't appreciate the purpose of confession and absolution, which is absolution.

As JVS said, the general confession is fine, private confession (not compelled of course) is appropriate in addition and the reason for the latter is to ease the conscience of anyone troubled by sin --but shouldn't we all be troubled by sin?

You can even confess to another Christian.

And there is one more thing about confessing specifically to another Christian, or Pastor, when the hearer tells you that you are forgiven because of Jesus Christ, you are, without any doubt and your conscience should be eased. Further, since it takes two for that, you have the assurance that God is there with you in that confession since both are gathered in His Name.

I respect that I am not the authority in these matters and that there is much we can disagree on, even while being faithful Lutherans --what I don't like is you calling me "homophobic" when I never said anything about whether or not the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence" being gay (in fact, to show how out of it I am, I don't even know if they are gay) so to say that my abhorrence about their spectacle is related to their being gay is not based on what I said, but on what you THINK I believe.

That's not fair.

And it's also not fair to pastors who hear private confession while wearing their gown and vestments to refer to them as wearing a "dress" and minimize the importance of what they do, especially since it is regarded in the Lutheran church.

[JVS]

117. Even if not privately, all Lutheran services involving communion begin with a confession

When the congregation says "Most merciful God, we confess that we are 'bound to sin and cannot free ourselves'/ 'by nature sinful and unclean..." that is a completely valid confession and absolution. As long as this has not been removed from the service.

[JVS]

63. To give the sacrament to the unfaithful is no favor. It harms them

[madeline_con]

67. They barf crackers and wine later? n/t

[JVS]

68. They go to hell

[madeline_con]

70. It's always the good "Christian" who condemns.

I find that interesting.


I fell into a fit of laughter telling hubby aboput the thread and that two gay guys were going straight to hell for eating crackers in church. :rofl:

editred 4 speeling

[JVS]

73. One can be gay and take communion and be fine, but if someone takes communion outside of faith...

that person goes to Hell. St. Paul is quite clear on the matter.

[madeline_con]

74. St. Paul was a homophobic busybody.

But that's just according to MY faith.

[JVS]

78. I don't give a shit about your faith.

St. Paul pulls a lot of water in this town Lebowski, you don't pull shit.

Call me back when God has you do the heavy lifting of writing the New Testament, until then you can tell it to Oprah

[madeline_con]

80. Call you back?

Oprah? :rofl:

[CreekDog]

87. Madeleine, what's with your avatar? Slow Children?

You aren't a child anymore, and, well, okay, partial credit.

[madeline_con]

113. What the fuck is your problem?

[xchrom]

102. your version of the faith is a sickness -- a disease. n/t

[JVS]

116. St. Paul was no heretic. The sacrament is to be administered carefully. Doing otherwise is disease

if you like to call things that are bad disease.

[regnaD kciN]

99. All are welcome at God's table, indeed...

...if their intention is to grow closer to God. If they come merely to mock (which is what I view them as doing in this case), they should not be welcome.

If a poor person needs my help, I will do what I can. If, however, I find out that the person who presents himself for help is actually a rich conservative, who has done so only so that he can ridicule me and my values afterwards, he should just stay the hell away. And if I fail to assist such a person, that doesn't make me a hypocrite or "prove" that I'm not willing to help those in need.

[xchrom]

101. another person whose faith is sick -- and trying to spread it. n/t

[LeftyMom]

108. The Sisters are a charitable and volunteer organization

Last I checked, caring for "the least of these" and loving thy neighbor is the big idea behind Christianity. They do both very well.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

9. So, what was the apology for? Why should he refuse to do mass?

What was the problem?

The fact that the guys are gay?
The fact that the guys were dressed as nuns?
The fact that the makeup and sunglasses were in poor taste?
The over-the-top strings of faux pearls?

Why couldn't these folks receive mass without apology?

:wtf:

[IndianaJones]

10. the first one mainly. possibly the second as well. nt.

[CreekDog]

11. They were mocking the sacrament

Is dressing as a nun, while not being a nun, practically mocking real nuns and a holy order within the church the type of action that represents a repentant soul asking for the grace and forgiveness promised in the Eucharist?

No, and hell no.

And if they took the Eucharist not believing it, then the blood is to their damnation rather than their salvation. According to the Bible. Above all, it is this point that should have kept them from being served, first, for the protection of their own souls and then for the dignity of the sacrament, though that comes second.

There is no legal requirement or moral obligation for a church to open its doors and serve its sacraments to those who mock them or don't share the same beliefs in those sacraments --and it is morally wrong to partake of something from others while mocking what they are giving you.

I'm in SF and I simply hate the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, I think they are a disgrace, but I tolerate them, but they cross a line when they bring their mockery into mass.

[hunter]

14. How many people who openly advocate the death penalty receive Communion?

I think they cross the line when they bring their mockery into Mass, yet every Sunday I see them there, more pious than their neighbors.

The sisters are what they are, and they are out of place at Mass. But the devil's presence at Mass is unremarkable.

[CreekDog]

20. I don't disagree, but this is more like advocating during the mass

Like wearing a tshirt that says, "Execution is the Solution" to Holy Communion which would be worse than simply saying it outside in your normal daily business.

[IndianaJones]

16. In what way do you tolerate them? I think they rock. nt.

[CreekDog]

25. I don't ask for them to be arrested, harmed, etc.

But I vehemently disagree with their actions.

And while we are supposed to live in a free country, that doesn't give one the right to go into a church and act any way one pleases. That that parish allowed this was an act of benevolence on their part and not a requirement.

So, yes I tolerate them. Tolerating is not condoning, approving, enabling, justifying, it is simply allowing in this case, by not stopping them.

No, I would not tolerate them within my own church or within my home, that is my right. Outside of those places, it is not my decision or authority to determine how they can dress or act. But I don't have to like it and I don't.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Is there a dress code for the sacrament now?

[hunter]

30. From the sfgate article...

"The general sacramental principle is that you don't deny the sacrament to someone who requests it," said the Rev. Jim Bretzke, professor of moral theology at University of San Francisco, a Jesuit Catholic university. "The second principle is that you cannot give communion to someone who has been excommunicated."

He said such people are designated "manifest public sinners" in canon law.

"This is someone who violates in a serious way one of the Ten Commandments or one of the important laws of the Church," he said. "While I can see Bill O'Reilly and others might be offended, the sisters do not meet the criteria the church has for denying Communion. Over-accessorizing and poor taste in makeup is not an excommunicable offense."

Bretzke added, "Even if these people were bizarrely dressed, the archbishop was following clear pastoral and canonical principles in giving them Communion. The default is, you give Holy Communion to one who presents himself."

(My emphasis)

[CreekDog]

56. I'm aware of that statement, heck not only did I read the article

I wrote to Julian, the reporter who wrote it!

And I understand that they err on the side of giving rather than withholding the Eucharist, my pastors typically have done the same.

Despite that, this does not validate the "sisters" behavior, nor the motives behind their actions.

[hunter]

62. I'm assuming the sisters are Catholic...

There are plenty of gay Catholics in Church (although not so many who dress up as nuns) so it's probably not a huge issue so far as concerns the Eucharist. But it just wouldn't be right for a Lutheran to walk into a Catholic Church and do the same thing, with or without a costume.

Anyways, I wonder if the sisters ever talked to their moms afterwards because I can just picture a Catholic mom saying, "Hey sweetie, I saw on Fox News that you went to Mass on Sunday!"

And she'd be happy about it.

Sometimes dragging my own kids to Mass ain't easy, not at all, because they are back-talking-know-it-all teenagers.

My own religious views are out of accordance with the Church on some issues, I support birth control and gay marriage, for example, and I'm not afraid to argue with anyone about it, even Priests and Bishops, but my wife and I still attend Mass most Sundays, and drag our kids through it too.

[CreekDog]

64. How many times do I have to say their being gay or not isn't the issue I was speaking about?

I said again and again, and again after that the issue was how they presented themselves at the sacrament.

And I agree with you about it being a problem for a Lutheran to present himself for Communion in a Catholic church without asking permission to commune and getting that permission.

When in Rome...

[JVS]

81. The guy who played Fr. Guido Sarducci was once arrested at the Vatican for impersonating a priest.

It would not surprise me to learn that wearing clerical clothing under false pretenses is a little bit more of an issue in the RCC than merely dressing poorly

[CreekDog]

32. How about no costumes? Is that a code?

Your point is ridiculous. Nobody has said anything about requiring coats and ties, dresses, etc., just not a costume which represents a vow which that person has not taken.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

"How about no costumes? Is that a code?"

I don't think so. The priests, nuns, and wear costumes.

"Your point is ridiculous."

I think the point that they're mocking the sacrament is ridiculous. Looks to me like they're mocking homophobic bigots.

[CreekDog]

37. Your uniform is a symbol of your vocation

A costume is when you are an imposter or are "dressing up" for reasons other than to perform your vocation.

If you don't know the difference between a nun wearing the habit as part of her work and someone who is not a nun wearing it, then you are seriously lacking cognitive ability.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. You're saying they're actually trying to pose as nuns?

I'm sorry, that's just stupid.

"If you don't know the difference between a nun wearing the habit as part of her work and someone who is not a nun wearing it, then you are seriously lacking cognitive ability."

Well that's my point. They're not trying to be imposters.

So what's the problem?

[CreekDog]

43. Then if it's a joke or to make a point, that's not what the Lord's Table is for

And that is reason to instruct them that they are welcome provided they are repentent and are not mocking the Body and Blood or using Communion for something other than the forgiveness of sins (to make a point or to distract others for example).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Hmm.

"And that is reason to instruct them that they are welcome provided they are repentent and are not mocking the Body and Blood or using Communion for something other than the forgiveness of sins (to make a point or to distract others for example)."

And how do you know they're any less repentant and seeking forgiveness of sins than anybody else?

[CreekDog]

48. I said I don't know for sure, but The Church holds the sacraments

And they have the power to provide or deny them, that power dependent upon doing it for the good of people's souls.

If Jesus hadn't given the keys to the kingdom to the Church, then this argument would be pointless, but He did and thus the Church controls who gets the sacrament and in Corinthians we find out it may be because taken indiscriminately it can be harmful to people's souls.

I wish we had a priest or pastor here who could enlighten us on this subject -I don't hold that calling, but I know doctrine fairly well for a layman.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

49. So then why do you assume they're less repentant?

Because they're gay?

"I wish we had a priest or pastor here who could enlighten us on this subject "

Seems to be a professor of moral theology involved who disagrees with you.

""While I can see Bill O'Reilly and others might be offended, the sisters do not meet the criteria the church has for denying Communion. Over-accessorizing and poor taste in makeup is not an excommunicable offense.""

[CreekDog]

51. What is the responsibility of these men as Christians taking communion?

Now you tell me.

If it was upsetting to other parishoners that these men dressed as nuns, to the extent that some wondered whether the sacrament was legitimate, it would be helpful and it would be in keeping with Biblical command that these men not come to communion dressed as they were.

As the bible says, everything is permissible (because we are not under the law), but not everything is helpful.

What these men did was not helpful. It is not wrong to tell them to try again and return when they could recognize that.

[JVS]

77. Ok. The big questions: 1 had these men been to sacramental confession before this?

2. Were they baptised?
3. Do they properly recognize the sacrament?
4. Do they approach the altar in contrition?

If the answers to all 4 are yes, then there should be no problem. However, if someone is abusing the sacrament and using it as an opportunity for polical stunts, then it is likely that they are not OK.

[CreekDog]

88. The truth is not snarky enough to convince anyone here ;)

As for me, I'm the choir.

[CreekDog]

52. Yes, it was an assumption, I made a judgement, but my judgement is not the final say

[Book Lover]

18. Speaking as someone who has actually spoken to a real nun about the Sisters

I have heard only positive things from her about the Sisters' charity work. She doesn't feel mocked by the Sisters' costumes or deeds. So why are you? Or are you a nun who feels otherwise from my Carmelite friend?

And where is your indignation for the person who had their cell phone out during communion? I wonder why were they taping rather than praying, myself...

[CreekDog]

36. My posts are concerned with mocking the "Sacrament"

Mocking the nuns is secondary, although I don't like that either. That most nuns are good humored and see the good more than the bad in most people, says more about their goodness than the goodness of the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence".

This is the Body and Blood of the Lord. Look, some churches do a thing called "Clown Communion", which has nothing to do with the "Sisters", well I have the same disrespect for that ceremony as for what the Sisters did as well as those who use cellphones while in church --that said, if they saw something wrong and wanted to document it, I see no issue in them doing what they did.

The "Sisters" just made themselves a whole lot less popular among Catholics in SF. They have their defenders and always have, but the ranks of their detractors just grew.

And the good they've done does not obviate the wrong thing that was done.

[Book Lover]

39. But you don't believe the same things about communion as Catholics!

Or did Lutherans change their stance regarding transubstantiation while I wasn't looking?

If it was OK with the Archbishop to present the body of Christ to these people during communion, it's OK with me. And I don't see how a non-Catholic feels justified taking umbrage.

[CreekDog]

58. You mean the difference between transubstantiation and real presence

It's still the Body and Blood of Christ.

Before I continue, I find your posts more interesting and compelling than most of the replies to what I've written. I don't claim that there is no difference in the two theologies or I would be Roman Catholic right now --that is true.

Further, what I'm arguing is where I feel I'm in cooperation with the Roman Catholic Church and in accordance with my own conscience. This is why I insist that I am not *separate* or opposed to the Catholic Church. Ironically, in Roman Catholicism, there is more room for the statement that I am making now than in the Lutheran Confessions. Well, there but for the Grace of God go I.

Anyway, to your question:

It's still communion, an opinion on the matter is not limited to Roman Catholics.

The irony of your comment is that this is the thing that Lutherans and Roman Catholics believe much more similarly than say, the difference that spurred the argument between Erasmus and Martin Luther regarding "free will" and "the bondage of the will" respectively, if simplistically on my part.

Ironically, if I didn't believe the sacrament in that mass was the Body and Blood of Christ, I would probably care a lot less if it was disrespected, but there you go.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. How are they mocking the sacrament by recieving it?

Aren't people who are homophobic bigots mocking the sacrament, and Christianity as a whole?

[CreekDog]

46. By wearing a costume to it

Yes, it's a judgement call, but the focus of communion is the Body and Blood of Christ and they usurped that focus by dressing in such garb and presenting themselves for it. If it was inadvertent that is totally understandable, but you don't inadvertently put on gobs of makeup and a habit and then go up for communion.

Communion is not fresh air. You are not cautioned in the bible to be careful when you take a breath of fresh air. You are cautioned in the bible regarding partaking of communion. Sorry, it would be a heck of a lot easier to just give it out to everybody, heck we could even do it on street corners, saving ourselves mortgages for the churches, organists, priests, etc.

The reverence comes from the recognition of the Body and Blood that Jesus spoke of in communion.

[TommyO]

96. So, you're judging these men by their outside appearance

and not by what is inside their hearts?

[CreekDog]

103. Because we cannot DIRECTLY judge a heart

Lacking that ability doesn't mean that we must never judge any action at all.

[PeaceNikki]

19. How can any action be damnation? Don't Christians believe Christ died for their sins?

Aren't all sins covered under Christ's insuarance policy? Or are their sins that are excluded like Allstate and hurricanes? And... is being silly by dressing up like a nun and going to church part of the hurricane exclusion? :shrug:

[CreekDog]

23. The Bible says communion CAN be taken to one's own damnation

Jesus Christ is BOTH savior and judge of the world.

According to the bible, if you believe in Him, he is your savior. If you do not believe in him, you are judged according to your deeds, which include sin which result in death.

That's what Christians have historically believed.

[PeaceNikki]

26. Not all Christians. Stop projecting.

Jesus is the judge of hearts & souls, not you and not your church, either.

[CreekDog]

29. The church was instructed to teach its members in regards to communion

If Paul said "go ahead give everyone communion and Jesus will sort out the rest" then everybody come up to the table.

But Paul instead said 1 COR 11:27-32:

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

[PeaceNikki]

34. If you interpret that to mean that one is damned to hell for all of eternity because they dressed up

silly, then you are reading WAY between the lines.

If you are claiming to be qualified to judge their intentions and their souls, then your visions of grandeur are astonishing. Step away from your bible and let God judge them. Love people for who they are. Even gays dressed as nuns. See the humor in life and in people.

[CreekDog]

41. I did not say they were damned, but that we are instructed to take communion seriously

And that the Bible suggests in that very passage, that some care should be taken so that communion is not harmful to the soul.

My judgement is not that of God, so it has no impact on these men's souls, Thank God, but still, do you really think they were repentent, intending to take the Body and Blood of our Lord for the forgiveness of their sins?

If they said that they were and they didn't mean any offense and they meant it, then good for them, however, it would be perfectly appropriate for the priest to instruct them that their costumes show disrespect and that if they dress that way again they will be denied communion. This is proper use of the "Keys to the Kingdom" that God granted the Church.

[PeaceNikki]

45. Do I think they are repentent and am I willing to speculate as to their intentions?

No. Never.

And it's not my place to do it. Nor is it yours. They don't have to "say" it. Not me and not to you and not to the media and not even to the fucking archbishop. Even for "believers", it's an issue between man and his Lord.

I must have missed the part in Catechism where they taught you how to read souls.

"Serendipity: I have issues with anyone who treats faith as a burden instead of a blessing. You people don't celebrate your faith; you mourn it."

[CreekDog]

50. You are skipping the part of the Bible that gives the Church the Keys to The Kingdom

As the Church on earth, people, yes, people are given the keys to hear confessions, to forgive, to administer the sacraments, and to pray for those who don't believe and because they don't believe, cannot pray for themselves.

And again, I correct you, I did not and never claimed to read these men's souls, however I do read their actions and it is not inappropriate to tell them, "Look, I'm not damning you to hell, I don't know if you mean good or ill by wearing that habit, but please change your clothes to something unobjectionable and come back and take communion then."

[Karenina]

47. Paul is pretty freepy.

:rofl: I meant to type CREEPY, but I'll let the typo stand. "Saint" Paul is NOT G_d. Anyone who prefers to cast their lot with the latter rather than the former gets my vote! :thumbsup:

[CreekDog]

59. Yeah, I know Paul is a tough one

But the bible doesn't contain only the books of Pollyanna, it's both grace and judgement, the judgement doesn't feel good, feels too harsh, too hard to live up to and the grace too easy (for us).

Hey, I'm not saying it's easy for me to read or take to heart --it's not.

The hardest thing is to go to church with a friend and have them feel excluded from communion, but from what I understand of the Church's teaching and the bible, including them indiscriminately may be worse than making them feel better but partaking without fellowship or examination.

[madeline_con]

69. Best post in thred.

You get my vote. :toast:

[CreekDog]

85. "St. Paul's Freepy"? best post in thred (sic)???!!!

Your agreement with that post is not indicative of its quality.

Or maybe it is ;)

[CreekDog]

60. Read the text in 1 Corinthians Chap 11

It cautions that it shouldn't be taken to damnation. If it's not possible, then why caution us against that?

I can provide you no more information. Heck I tried. It would be easier for me if Chapter 11 wasn't there, but it is, so now what the heck do I do? Discount it, say it damnation isn't possible in regards to communion?

I can't in good conscience say that it doesn't warn about what it appears to warn about.

[JVS]

71. And it is for this reason that pastors must be careful in their distribution of the sacrament.

:thumbsup:

[CreekDog]

76. My gosh, you are the first person in this thread to agree with me on anything

Thanks for saying what you said.

[JVS]

79. Hey, what Lutheran can stay out of a dispute concerning the proper distribution of the Euchrarist?

[ohiosmith]

91. :

:thumbsup: :rofl:

[slutticus]

119. Hate.

What does the bible say about that?

[Orsino]

61. He forgot the dress code. n/t

[Drunken Irishman]

100. The same reason my father, a Catholic, does not receive Communion.

He divorced before he met my mother.

I've met Niederauer and he has no issue with giving Communion to gays and lesbians. However, when you mock the Church you're asking Communion from, I could see why some would have a problem with that.

[hunter]

13. The Sister's press release about the incident is a hoot!

SAN FRANCISCO — On Sunday the 7th of October, the morning of the Castro Street Fair, two members of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence® attended Mass at Most Holy Redeemer Church. Most Holy Redeemer is located in the Castro neighborhood of San Francisco and "prides itself in being an inclusive Catholic community." The service was an opportunity to welcome the new Archbishop of San Francisco, Most Rev. George Niederauer. While at Mass the Sisters joined other parishioners in respectful and sincere worship and received Communion from the Archbishop. After the services, they stayed to socialize with the congregation before moving on to attend the Castro Street Fair.

Sadly, while the Sisters participated in the celebration, others not there to worship secretly filmed and photographed the Mass hoping to spark a controversy and cast the parishioners of Most Holy Redeemer and the Archbishop in a negative light. These professional muckrakers then gave the photos to an anti-gay Fundamentalist Catholic Website which in turn sent them to right-wing media outlets who willfully distorted the facts for political gain.

The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence are appalled that some media outlets have unwittingly spread these distortions while others have intentionally taken advantage to fuel a mean-spirited and divisive political agenda. These forces have been critical of Most Holy Redeemer for their welcoming approach to the diverse community they serve and have frequently seen fit to attack the parishioners as part of a larger campaign against "San Francisco values."

http://thesisters.org/MHR_Release.html

Meanwhile at catholic.org they've really got their undies in a knot --

LOS ANGELES (Catholic Online) -- Just as the Catholic faithful were breathing a sigh of relief that the underlying issues which gave rise to the sexual scandals of the past were being addressed; a new event now holds the Catholic Church up to ridicule and mockery. A week after the notorious “Folsom Street Fair”, where various homosexual groups marched through the Streets of San Francisco to call attention to their disordered sexual activities and chosen lifestyles, an event took place during Holy Mass on October 7, 2007 at the Most Holy Redeemer Parish in San Francisco which belies belief.. The participants are a part of a fringe minority within the homosexual community who now demand that such behaviors be protected by law as some kind of new “right”.

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=25660

From my own perspective, I've got to wonder... If God, who sees all things, was sorting out the people who should and shouldn't recieve communion, then there would be some very surprising revelations. Quite a few respectable and conservative Catholics would find their butts glued tightly to the church pews while people as flamboyant and outspoken as the sisters walked the Communion line freely.

[hedgehog]

21. Good for the Archbishop!

I seem to recall that the "good people" of His time accused Jesus of consorting with sinners.

[Fire Walk With Me]

55. Hee hee hee hee...

Eeee hee hee hee hee....

As a cross-dresser once said, "All my makeup comes from the same source: Sherwin Williams."

[madeline_con]

65. Were they dressed like the guy in the pic?

For crying out loud, first off, who cares?

Who appointed the Catholic church the be all and end all of who gets a cracker? Oh, wait, they appoointed themselves!

Second, do nuns usually dress like that, or was it just another typical Sunday?

[CreekDog]

84. Jesus did. Please stop talking, your ignorance is making me feel bad for you.

[Deep13]

92. Actually, it was Constantine. nt

[Deep13]

93. *wrong place*

[CreekDog]

97. Broadly speaking, it was Jesus

Who gave to the Church the keys to the kingdom, the power of the church which includes the sacraments.

[Deep13]

115. You are speaking of myth as though it was historical fact.

It is unlikely that the JC of the NT ever even existed. If any NT person is responsible for the establishment of Christianity, it is Paul of Tarsis. Going back to the question of why the RC church thinks they alone get to decide who gets a crack, they really have no reason for it.

The present-day accepted cracker-giving doctrine was instituted by Constantine at the beginning of the 4th century. He and his puppet council not only decided what when into the NT and what lay on the cutting-room floor, but also what was and was not accepted belief for orthodox Christianity. (This is orthodox used in the generic sense.) When the imperial court moved to Byzantium, it's religious authority went with it.

[CreekDog]

120. The accounts of the Last Supper were not written by Paul

That's the problem with your argument.

And again, again and again, I never said the RCC was the only church fit to decide who gets communion. Yes, if they are my church, my pastor is responsible for my spiritual well being where it concerns his calling and what he does for me -like giving me communion if he knows I'm in public, unprepentant sin, which he would not give to me, not to purify the church and harm me, but to protect my soul.

Further regarding apostolic succession, which Jesus granted that to his Church which is the body of believers on earth, and those people are in denominations of all stripes.

Finally, The Council of Nicea, which so many people believe was the start of everything wrong with Christianity was where the tenets of Chrisitianity were defined to protect people from non Christian teachings that were pretending to be, pelagianism, etc. Heck, Santa Claus, St. Nick was a big fighter for orthodox belief and apparently clocked someone who blasphemed (okay, not what Jesus would do, but I digress).

But to say it all came from the 4th century when these practices started long before and largely underground is mistelling history. And why should you be so sure of your version? You say it is myth anyway.

[madeline_con]

111. Do you ever stop being an ass?

Thank goodness all Christians aren't as hateful as you are. You're one of the reason so many are turned off by the idea of religion. :puke:

Edited to add the fact that your'e being hateful.

[Pushed To The Left]

72. Bill O'Reilly is going NUTS about this story

He has been blaming the entire city of San Francisco and their government for what happened. He was actually screaming at a reporter on his TV show last week about this "invasion". He was screaming and pointing like he was doing a wrestling promo. I have never seen anything like it!

[hunter]

83. I wonder what Bill O'Reilly looks like to Jesus...

He's probably not as pretty as the sisters.

Oh dear, I'm in big trouble now. :hide:

But man, the hypocrisy was blowing out of Bill like a bad case of diarrhea.

[BuddhaGirl]

107. "San Francisco values"

screameth Falafal boy. This Bay Area resident (and recovering Catholic) is proud of "San Francisco values" and the Sisters.

Go Sisters!

[Generic Brad]

75. Will they have to fondle crotches before giving communion now?

That seems like the only way to know for sure.

[madeline_con]

82. Hubby says he's a KISS nun. n/t

[CreekDog]

90. Get a real hobby and by the way, smart isn't the word that goes with that other word

Now I'm going to go watch that 70's Show...

[madeline_con]

109. What the hell's that supposed to mean? n/t

[TK421]

89. Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?....

uhhh....DUHHH, father!!!!!


What a fucking fucktard!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Deep13]

95. Has he apologized for giving communion &c. to child molesters dressed as priests? nt

[PeaceNikki]

98. touché

[GreenPartyVoter]

105. Ah, well. Whosever will, may come

[RedCappedBandit]

121. He gave them what now?

So what? Silly old men playing dress up..