A Big Gay Thank You

[Sapphocrat]

Dear DU queers and interested straight folks,

I want to thank all of you who responded to me about a week ago when I was so discouraged (again) about what I perceived to be less-than-tolerant (and far from accepting) threads re the LGBT community.

I was really upset; I asked for your support, and I got it in spades.

And if I could find the bloody thread now, I would finish answering everyone individually. There were so many gems (from noiretblu, ronnykmarshall, and many others), and I feel badly I didn't do it right then and there. (That'll teach me not to bookmark.)

So I hope those of you who swooped in and really supported me when I was ready to throw my keyboard out the window will know how much I appreciate your words -- and more than that, how much I appreciate you.

As I lurk most of the time (posting only in great, torrential spurts now and again), and haven't seen many gay threads in quite a while, I hadn't been inspired to post in a long time.

Then the Boy Emperor had to raise the gay-marriage issue, and, naturally, the gay threads have been flying ever since. When that happens, I wait as long as I can for somebody else to make the point I want to make -- which usually happens eventually -- so I can resist the temptation to get sucked into the same age-old debates with the hope that this time, I'll find the right words and help change the outcome. (Remember what I said about Freud and the definition of insanity?)

Once in a while, nobody makes "my" point, so -- after giving myself a stern warning that I know I will fail to heed -- I dive back in, headfirst. As I did tonight.

I wanted to mention this in a separate thread to DU "family" -- as well to the handful of wonderfully empathic straight folks who spoke up and urged me on -- just to let you know I took your words, every one of them, very seriously. I wasn't just looking for a "there-there" (although your compassion made my heart swell with the kind of fondness I don't think I could explain to anyone outside the "club" -- maybe that's why we call it "pride" - LOL). I listened when you told me not to give up, and that you needed every voice -- mine included.

So, that's what I did tonight. I dove into a couple of gay threads that were actually rather difficult for me to even read, let alone participate in. Since I first landed here some two years ago, the thing that's bothered me most is learning that a DUer I've long admired and liked is really not so gay-friendly as I thought. That's worse than somebody just coming out and attacking me for being some horribly evil, perverted, sinful creature. That crap rolls right off my back. And I couldn't care less what the hardcore "centrist" DUers think of me; we have never agreed on anything yet, and I know it's a waste of their time and mine to argue with them.

But learning that there are certain limits to the progressive sensibilities of a DUer I expected to be on "my side" -- well, that makes my heart ache.

And, of course, there are the gay threads that are openly hostile. IndianaGreen said tonight what I wish I had earlier; while it may not be so evident now, all you have to do is go back through the archives to find more truly hostile, anti-gay threads that you'd ever want to re-live.

As I explained, if there's anything that runs me off this board, it's a gay thread that turns ugly. I toldja -- my skin is quite thin, and I don't think I could change that if I tried. Good God, I'm a hair shy of 42 years old; this old dog can learn plenty of new tricks, but barring spiritual epiphany, shock treatment, or lobotomy, I don't think my emotional makeup is going to change anytime soon.

Let me put it this way: Sometimes, when you're reading a gay thread that's beginning to get a tad, oh, un-supportive, do you feel your heart rate increase? I do. For me, it's vaguely similar to the fight-or-flight feeling you get when some jerk yells "faggot" or "dyke" at you on the street (and he doesn't mean it as a term of admiration).

Maybe that's exactly what it is for me when I see the gay threads go from cordial to even slightly intolerant; the possibility the thread will turn downright hostile triggers the same sort of feeling you get when you wonder if somebody's about to bash your ass.

No, tonight's threads haven't run me off. I'll admit, I'm exhausted after writing just a few posts this evening. None of them took much thought -- I knew what I wanted to say -- but I'm acutely aware that my words (like yours, like anybody's) are susceptible to being picked apart. Yeah, I know -- that's just one of the liabilities of DU, or of any large gathering of individuals with above-average intelligence.

And, as I do in real life, when I speak as an Official Lesbian on matters of Official Gay Concerns, I always feel I have to be a good representative of the community. I know I don't have to be perfect -- and I don't even have to be right. I just feel I need to cover all my bases, so that no one (with - gasp! - nefarious purposes) can at some future date hold one of my posts up to illustrate that none of "us" knows what we're talking about.

Does that make any sense? Or am I just incredibly neurotic? :)

Anyway, I just felt the need tonight to post this, partly to wind down, and mostly just to say thank you. I am honored to be one of us. Or, more accurately, you honor me.

S.

P.S. Yes, I changed my avatar too. :)

[lcordero]

1. I'm glad to see that you are back

:)

[Booberdawg]

2. Glad you decided to hang around

and that you're in much better spirits. I had wondered about you this past week and wondered if you were gone for good. Your post was an eye opener for me.

Welcome home! :toast:

Linda

Here's the other thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=51546&mesg_id=51546

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Thank you for a very heartfelt and thoughtful post

It really touched me. I feel for you and for the hurtful remarks people have made to you. I have known many gay people who have really had to struggle to find acceptance and love in a world that is often ignorant and intolerant. Know that you and your posts are always welcome to me.

[ronnykmarshall]

4. We love ya S!

Glad to see you're still here!

[rock]

5. Glad to hear you're 'happy'

DU is full of wonderful listeners.

[Midwest_Doc]

6. Thank YOU!

Your comments are appreciated. Members like you make this the best site on the web.

[Bossy Monkey]

7. It's on this very page

or was up 'til recently http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=51546&mesg_id=51546

[Aristus]

8. I don't think I'm one of the post-ers you mentioned.

But feel free to add me to your 'gay-friendly' list. :hi: Sapphocrat. BTW, love your DU handle!

[Rowdyboy]

9. Never, never, never, never....

let them get you down. There are bigots who will NEVER see us as equals just as there are racists who will NEVER see Blacks and Hispanics as their equal. The same mindset, the same excuses, the same fear of what is different, only here its sexuality rather than race.

[private_ryan]

11. just as they are people who see homophobia and racism

even when it isn't.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. More often than not it's the racists and homophobes that can't

see that they are...same goes for sexists. I guess people hoist by "isms" are like fish in water.

[private_ryan]

14. well, we'll just let you decide who is what and we'll all accept it. Fair?

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. I never asked to decide besides it's useless if those who are

don't see it for themselves.


But here's a little hint. A person that shows up on threads about race, homophobia, women and similar issues making nothing but negatively charged comments might have a little hostility issue going on. Ya think????

[private_ryan]

17. and so it is. How can I make up for it?

donations to NOW, GLAAD, Rainbow Push Coalition?
Please advise, I want to be accepted by you!

[tuck]

18. simple rules to consider

if you are not a woman, you cannot say something isn't sexist

if you are not a person of color, you cannot say something isn't racist

if you are not queer in some way, you cannot say something isn't homophobic

you lack the ability to empathize, you lack the ability to be crushed by such statements. that is all there is to it.

i don't care what someone's "intent" was. unintentional homophobia is just as bad as intentional homophobia. in fact, if you are ignorant about the things you say that are homophobic, that is even worse.

so piss off about homophobia.

[private_ryan]

19. oh, so I should start doing guys before I comment on gay issues?

have you ever commented on straight issues? Don't make me search

[tuck]

21. yes.

exactly. you have no say as to what isn't homophobia. and don't give me that "straight issues" bullshit. when there is a clear power dynamic and gay people have privlege over straight people, i will stop talking about straight discrimination.

[private_ryan]

22. don't give that "gay issues" bullshit either then

you just hurt my feelings with the "straight issues" comment. I don't think you know how it feels to be straight so you should stay out of it....

[tuck]

24. that is exactly what i am talking about.

there is a huge difference between these issues. yes there are gay people who don't like straight people, but they do not hold the privlege that straight people hold. when your way of life is denounced and you persecuted for not fitting in with society EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY then come talk to me anout discrimination.

until then, i don't want to hear a straight person thinking that just because a gay person once called them on their ignorance that they are soooooo discriminated against.

this is a conversation you HAVE to have on my terms.

[Booberdawg]

27. You make it pretty difficult

"you have no say as to what isn't homophobia"

I am trying really hard to appreciate your position. You are making it very difficult. What I "appreciate" is someone who has obviously endured a lot of unfairness and hardship because of the ignorant and outright hateful behavior of others... that has resulted in a big chip on your shoulder. Justified? Probably. What I "see" is a ridiculous edict you have declared that a straight person (Read NO straight person) has no say as to what isn't homophobia.

I respectfully suggest you are mistaken. I think I can figure out what it is. And I don't think I'm special in that regard.

Is what you're trying to say is that straights have no say in what a gay perceives as a lack of understanding or empathy? That I could understand. I don't mean to nitpik on semantics - I'm just trying to decide for myself if these severely tilted statements are really what you believe and intend to say.

Linda

[tuck]

33. damn, that is refreshing....

you are the first straght person on this board i have encountered who is actually interested in dialogue. (some already have it figured out, and the rest merely think they do....)

what it comes down to is this: if a queer IDd person says a statement or action is homophobic, then a straight person is waaay out of line to insist that it isn't, or to say that said queer person is being "overly sensetive"

queers can discuss it amongst themselves, but by no means can a straight person assume that they are so enlightened about their own prejudices that they have none.

the same goes for racism and sexism.

[Booberdawg]

38. OK

I think I understand what you're trying to say.

In my brain, I'm seeing what is homophobic and what is perceived by said queer person as two separate issues. In my brain, I see where it is possible that some statement or action might not be homophobic, but it is perceived to be so by said queer person. It's possible.

BUT!! I know, and you know better than I, that people will deny a statement or action as being homophobic when it clearly is. Some people just don't have very good insight about themselves, they are in denial, or just plain lying. You are a lot more sensitized to homophobia than I am. It's been a constant issue in your life and I've given it relatively little thought compared to you because there hasn't been a need. You can spot it more easily than I can.

So the rest of your point is - when there is disagreement about whether a queer person might have been "overly sensitive" about a comment or action, it is not appreciated, is not useful, and indeed is considered rude, for a straight person to weigh in amongst queers discussing it amoung themselves. In other words, it's insensitive for a straight person to come in insisting that there is something "wrong" with your perception. Or check in to argue that you don't have the right to feel the way you do, or your feelings are invalid for whatever reason. That I could understand. I would agree that this is insensitive, and depending on the intent behind it, sometimes it's just pretty rude and offensive. I see both in this thread.

Do I have this straight now??

Linda

[tuck]

40. ummm, not quite....

"I see where it is possible that some statement or action might not be homophobic, but it is perceived to be so by said queer person."

if an action is perceived by a queer person to be homophobic, it is homophobic. end of statement.

[Booberdawg]

41. I see

Then we don't agree on that one point. You're saying it is impossible for the queer person to ever be mistaken, in any way, shape, or form. Ever. I won't go along with that. Maybe a queer person might be right more often than not on this point, but queers as a group are not immune from error in judgement or lack of insight. Those are equal opportunity human weaknesses.

I think I'm pretty clear on what you're saying now. We're even 95% in agreement, and I'm willing to just agree to disagree on that remaining 5%. I think that's pretty good. Thanks for taking the time.

Now let me run something by you from my perspective. I have conciously chosen my words in the manner that you framed them in your arguments. I am not altogether comfortable referring to you as "queers". It seems disrespectful of me. But, my gut told me to chose the words as you framed them. I know it is perfectly comfortable for you to refer to each other this way, but I don't know if it is appropriate for me. Just as it's okay for Blacks to call one another a "nigger", but it would be seriously offensive if I did. Seems like I should be referring to you as "gays".

Linda

[private_ryan]

43. queers vs gays

I wanted to bring that point up too. When was the last time we saw a thread starting with "Dear DU n*ggers" ? I'm sure we have plenty of blacks of Eminem type whites who might use that word or variations of it talking to each other...

as far as this: "if an action is perceived by a queer person to be homophobic, it is homophobic. end of statement."
that's why you shouldn't lose any sleep over what certain people think about you. end of statement!

[Booberdawg]

44. In that case ...

it looks like the other 95% went right over your head.

[KCDem]

20. your rules are great

I feel the same way about sensitive issues. While not gay, I am female and have felt on many occasions that certain institutions/practices/laws/etc. are sexist beyond belief... whereas a man might not feel the same way. And abortion... if you haven't been there, then you can't tell me what to do.

I'm sure I have made idiotic statements at times... but I try I try I try I try not to offend. :hi:

[Booberdawg]

25. Hmmmm - not sure I agree with that rigid interpretation

I understand what you're trying to say, I really do. But the following is not, in my opinion, a valid argument:

if you are not a woman, you cannot say something isn't sexist

if you are not a person of color, you cannot say something isn't racist

if you are not queer in some way, you cannot say something isn't homophobic

Yes, you can. You can say something isn't sexist if you're not a woman, something isn't racist if you're not a person of color, something isn't homophobic if you are not a queer in some way. You might be wrong! But you might be right to. It IS possible for the person on the receiving end to misinterpret, project, or be overly sensitive.

What I think you are really trying to say, and you will correct me if I'm wrong, is that if the person on the receiving end perceives a sleight, it's not appropriate to tell that person their perceptions are invalid. It's like discounting someone's feelings. It's possible to misinterpret someone's comments, but that doesn't invalidate the person's hurt feelings.

I'm with you 100% when you say:

"you lack the ability to empathize, you lack the ability to be crushed by such statements."

This is where I see a lot of people getting hurt in sensitive issues such as the ones you brought up. A lot of otherwise well meaning people simply don't consider the difference between what may have been a benign comment on their part and empathy for someone who has "the ability to be crushed by such statements". They aren't bad people, usually they just don't know any better.

There is a big difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance means you simply don't know any better, and is not a negative reflection of character. Stupid is when you know better, or should, or you just don't give a shit if it hurts somebody.

Unintentional homophobia is not as bad as intentional homophobia. That just doesn't seem reasonable or have a ring of truth to me. But, I have not spent my life walking in the shoes of a homosexual, so I concede the possibility of ignorance on the matter. I'm open to the suggestion, but I'd like to hear it from a different point of view.

[TXlib]

31. Very well said, Booberdawg

[noiretextatique]

37. another point: no one, except an african american woman

can tell me a damn thing about being a aftrican-american woman...though many may try. i don't know if this had anything to do with tuck's point. i agree with your point about being on the receiving end of a sleight.

my point: when someone insists on replacing my experience with their view of my experience. a great example is those who insist that racism doesn't exist anymore because it's against the law.

[Booberdawg]

39. I hear ya!

"my point: when someone insists on replacing my experience with their view of my experience. a great example is those who insist that racism doesn't exist anymore because it's against the law."

LOL! That one's pretty obvious!

[noiretextatique]

45. not so obvious to some

it's been written more than once right here :D

[Karenina]

29. Tuck, I gotta thank you again

for NAILING it. When it comes to sexism, men need to SHUT UP AND FUCKING LISTEN. When it comes to racism, whites need to SHUT UP AND FUCKING LISTEN. When it comes to sexual orientation, folks need to SHUT UP AND FUCKING LISTEN.

My dear pal, Robert, an incredibly gifted and talented pianist, explained homosexuality to me when we were 18. I HAD NO IDEA about such things. We went dancing together on 7th Avenue South regularly, got shitfaced together and he carefully taught me HOW to spot LIARS because he LOVED ME AS MUCH AS I LOVED HIM and wanted to "protect" me as much as I had this base instinct to "protect" him but didn't really know from what. He shared the intimate details of his family life with me, having always been rejected in the small town in Texas from which he came, for being "different." We often slept in the same bed together as friends who simply loved each others' spirits. He committed suicide after coming out to his family. HE DIDN'T BLOODY FUCKING CALL ME FIRST. I cannot say that I ever "recovered." He told me how it wasn't a "choice" for him. It became a "first question" for me as I met other homosexual men. "I've always known I was different, but that had nothing to do with my sexuality. How old were YOU when you realized it?" The answers were ALWAYS, 3 or 4 years old. Today when I hear people going on about "lifestyle choices" I want to grab them by the throat and bang their heads up against the hardest surface I can find.

In my life the same is true. The "stealth" racism is rampant. I've learned not to get angry, it only eats MY soul. I've been asked by people who KNOW I have a degree from a Conservatory, "But... can YOU read music?"

Some weeks ago Noiretblu and I double-teamed Forrest Gump, to whom I must give :loveya: credit. He was able to SHUT UP and LISTEN. I cannot express what a wonderful feeling it was to simply be HEARD. He also posted about the "Odd man out." I'll go back through my bookmarks now and try to find and repost it.

And on a tangent, the "gay" priest who was voted in as a bishop... Someone please correct me if I am mistaken, but I somewhere got the impression that he and his partner lead a CELIBATE lifestyle.

I'm ready to SHUT UP and LISTEN.

[Rowdyboy]

30. I believe you're confusing Bishop Robinson with...

An celibate, gay Anglican priest in England who recently was nominated as Bishop, but withdrew before the vote because of the controversy. My understanding is that Bishop Robinson and his partner enjoy a full, "normal" relationship only because I have no reason to assume otherwise.

[noiretextatique]

34. so sorry about your friend, karenina

so sad. my nephew just came out recently, and he and his boyfriend came to visit me. i am so glad he has me, a supportive (and gay) family member, because i certainly didn't have that. of all my family members (big family) only one aunt is totally supportive...with everyone else, it's qualified by something. one of my cousins recently lectured me about repenting NOW before the second coming, so i can imagine how he will respond to the news.

that forrest gump is a real sweetheart :loveya: when i had my misogyny meltdown last week, he shared a really touching story...and offered unqualified support, as did most in my thread.
big shout of thanks to FG...and you, karenina...and everyone else.

and karenina, you nailed it, per usual :hi:

[Forkboy]

10. I'd say ou're a good representative

of the human community :)

Glad you stayed...this post alone shows you have a lot to offer us here at DU.

[Mari333]

12. someday there will come a time

when no one will concern themselves with the sexual orientation of anyone..I have to believe that, someday, being gay bi straight or transgendered will be a non issue, and equal rights will prevail.
I hope I see this in my lifetime.
Hugs to you.

[Sperk]

15. I'm so glad your feeling better! It's sometimes easy to forget just

how cutting harsh words can be. Just remember this...."What people say and do, reflects on THEM and not on YOU." I forget where I read that, but it's one of my favorites.
:-)

[KCDem]

23. glad you're still here, Sapphocrat!

You wrote: "my skin is quite thin, and I don't think I could change that if I tried. Good God, I'm a hair shy of 42 years old; this old dog can learn plenty of new tricks, but barring spiritual epiphany, shock treatment, or lobotomy, I don't think my emotional makeup is going to change anytime soon." You put this very well. I also have a thin skin at times. Just yesterday, a thread in the Lounge actually made me cry (well, it was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back, there were lots of other issues bothering me). Sheesh, some might say, it's just cyberacquaintances, why care? Logic tells me I shouldn't, but, as you wisely put it, my emotional makeup won't change on its own. I see a LOT of personality-bashing here on DU. I recognize that most of it is from disruptors, but still.

Take care! :hi:

[KG]

26. tho we'd all like to think of DU as a more enlightened community

there's still some of racism, homophobia, misogyny, and lots of other neanderthal like attitudes expressed here.

they are a small, yet annoying percentage.

but don't get offened by them - ignore them.

or better yet, mock their prehistoric thinking. it's great fun! :)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

28. Hey.

Thank you . :)

[geniph]

32. I'll never understand how anyone can condemn

loving another human being. There is nothing "queer" about love. Keep sex between consenting adults of the same species, and any other quibbles are bullshit and NONE of anyone else's business.

One doesn't choose one's sexual chemistry. It's as much a part of you as the color of your eyes. Many people, lacking the ability to empathize with others, assume that whatever works for them must work the same way for others, but in fact, most of us fall somewhere in the middle on the Kinsey scale. It's cultural expectations that force us into one orientation or another, for the most part. I'll never understand thinking less of people because of who they love. It makes no more sense to me than discriminating against people because of the amount of melanin in their epidermis. I mean, WTF?!

[noiretextatique]

35. great job, sapphocrat

i had a misogyny overload post in the lounge last week...still not going in any _ _ _ _ threads. but, i'm glad you're here, and it was my pleasure to offer my support. best of luck...and if you ever need a shoulder...don't hesitate :hi:

[orangecoloredapple]

36. I wasn't there, I didn't do it, and I support appreciate you

There are not enough people who are thankful for the things they have or get. Your are blessed with many! And you appreciate it. That's great.

Stay happy!

From The Gay Nineties Society! (if that truly exists, apologies. It came out of my head - don't sue me!)

[Susang]

42. I'm glad you're still here

:hi:

I didn't see that thread (I haven't had computer access much lately), but I'm sure I would have had a few choice words for those intolerant folks you mention. Wish I could have helped you out at the time. Stick around, okay? ;-)