I have a question about denim.

[Flaxbee]

I realize this might sound stupid, but I don't care. ;-)

Denim is simply cotton; from what I understand, twisted cotton (as opposed to pulled or refined) so as to give a sturdier, thicker feel to the material. It is simply dense cotton, right? (Though nowadays often shot thru with some sort of stretch material).

Anyway - organic / natural / unrefined cotton is whitish, right? Maybe an ecru color? Is it possible to buy denim cloth or jean in undyed denim? "Traditional" jeans like Levi's are dyed with what, exactly, to make themthe standard blue jean color? I know denim is traditionally called "serge" and comes originally from Nimes, France ("serge de Nimes" = denim). But I don't really know much else about the material.

I'm just interested in finding 'pure' or 'undyed' cotton denim. I appreciate any info/insight... Thanks!

[Flaxbee]

1. kick for the weekday crowd

anyone :shrug:

[knitter4democracy]

2. Denim also refers to the color these days.

It didn't originally. Anyway, they use indigo (a plant) to dye the cotton. Indigo is notorious for needing tons of rinses to finally stop bleeding color, so that's why they always tell you to wash them first and why jeans fade a bit. It's the dye, though I'm sure they're always working on tweaking that.

Jeans are also a tightly woven twill fabric (it's a special pattern of over two, under two and then offset on the next row). It's part of what makes them stronger; they're almost double-layered, really.

Undyed jeans should be possible but most likely pricey since they'd be a special order. Hmm. You'd want to look for undyed cotton twill instead of denim (which implies the color to most people). I'm not sure where to find that, though. I'm sure it exists, just not sure where.

[Flaxbee]

6. yeah, I think that's where I keep hitting a roadblock.

but I don't want twill - I want the denim "jean" fabric, undyed (natural cotton color, whatever that turns out to be once it's woven into jean/denim). I don't understand enough about fabric, I guess, to understand what I'm asking for. Since you're a knitter -- do you know of any websites where I might do a little reading?

Bah. Guess I'll just have to investigate more... thank you for your input, though, I really appreciate it.

[knitter4democracy]

11. I think Hippywife nailed it downpost: they dye the yarn.

Then they weave it.

I'd bet you could get the fabric at a good fabric store or even an upholstery place by the yard and pay a seamstress to copy your favorite pants or jeans with it. It'd probably cost less than you think. :)

[hippywife]

23. But if they dye the yarn and then weave it,

there will be no undyed fabric to be found, no? It will be something else but it likely won't be denim.

[knitter4democracy]

26. They don't dye all of the yarn.

You can buy a yarn called Den-m-knit in various colors, including natural that's the same stuff they make jeans with, and natural cotton twill is often used in upholstery, so you might have to look there, but I'm sure it's around. :)

[flvegan]

3. Try looking up Del Forte Denim and Nudie Jeans

I know they make organic, eco-friendly jeans. Don't know about undyed, though.

[Flaxbee]

5. yeah, I've checked them out ... lots more eco-friendly options

these days, but I haven't been able to find any 'undyed' - they're all dark rinse or whatever. I'm just kinda interested in the ecru/offwhite denim, whatever it'd look like before the fabric was dyed. Jeans are so versatile, but I'm sick to death of blue jeans, and don't want overdyed or bleached fabric. Am looking for something eco-friendly, in that there were no heavy pesticides or dyes used to treat the crop/fabric. I just want unrefined/raw denim. Can't find it! :cry:

[northzax]

4. indigo

the traditional dye to make demin/serge into the famous blue of blue jeans is indigo.

[Flaxbee]

7. yeah - lots of indigo plantations around my

husband's birthplace. I'd like to tour an old indigo plantation. But for now, I want plain cotton denim/serge fabric, undyed.

[supernova]

8. The fabric store

would probably be able to get undyed denim for you if they don't have it in stock. Denim is also good upholstery material.

[Flaxbee]

12. is that a website?

I'm rather clueless. I'll check it out -- thanks!

[supernova]

13. No, :-) Your local

fabric store. Some place like Jo-Ann's Fabrics...

Is there some reason you especially need white denim? White sail canvas is good too.

http://www.joann.com/joann/search/search_results.jsp;jsessionid=ZRUT3ZI1KZ0CGP4SY5KVAFR50LD3OUPU?CATID=cat1110&keywords=denim&_requestid=247987

[Flaxbee]

15. oh. duh.

:D we live in da boondocks, ain't no such thing here! Just a very limited, very small fabric store with lots of calico-like stuff, and prints with bunnies and teddy bears all over the place. I'll look online, though.

No, I just am sick of blue denim, and want to avoid toxic dyes, so I thought I'd look for just raw, unbleached, undyed denim. Thought it might look interesting and be as versatile as blue.

edited b/c I hit "post" before I'd finished my message :eyes:

[hippywife]

9. From what I've just been reading

when I did a search based on your post is that it looks like they die the yard first, then weave it to make the fabric. That could be why it's difficult to find them undyed the traditional blue. :shrug:

[Flaxbee]

10. yeah, that dawned on me.

I think I'll just have to look for fabric and go from there. Thanks!

[supernova]

14. JoAnn's has white Denim!

Looky here!

http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog.jsp?CATID=cat3161&PRODID=prd26101&source=search

[Flaxbee]

16. cool! thanks - I'll do some research on it

but looks like that might fit what I'm looking for! :hi:

[Parche]

17. Hey Flaxee

its all in the 'genes' :hi:

[Flaxbee]

19. hiya, Parche!

didn't you go away this weekend? Did you have a good time? :hi:

[Parche]

21. Hey Flaxee

To see my mommy, won $700 going down there, and $860 coming back
Oregon Lottery!! :woohoo: :woohoo: :party: :hi:

[LynzM]

18. Found a company that makes them!

http://www.certifiedjean.com/index.html - they don't show them on the main page, but if you go into one of the options, you'll see it listed as a fabric/color choice :)

Expensive, but made in the USA with fair-labor laws, and 100% organic, to boot. :bounce:

[Flaxbee]

20. hey - thank you!

they seem to fit my requirements - natural, fair labor, etc. hooray! :thumbsup: I appreciate it! And while they're costly, they're also not in the $100-200 ridiculous price range that pisses me off.

Thanks again, LynzM!

[LynzM]

22. You're very welcome!

Yay for google! :bounce:

[FloridaJudy]

24. The original Levi's were made with hemp.

It's a sturdier fiber than cotton, and can be equally soft if processed properly. I've bought a few hemp clothes in the past, and they're quite durable, but very pricey.

I've seen hemp jeans for sale online, but few that haven't already been dyed.

You could try here: http://www.rawganique.com/index.htm

[wovenpaint]

25. From a textile person-here's plenty of info

First of all, (in addition to/recap of other's input) denim is traditionally made from tightly twisted cotton yarns woven in a twill construction-looser than plain weave. Ths denim look is achieved by using indigo dyed yarns in one direction and white ones in the other.

The traditional color is made from indigo-and is why it fades when it's washed/worn. The indigo dye coats the cotton yarn rather than being absorbed into the fibers. What's used now is a synthetic-and identical-version of the plant dye.
Other colors of denim are called chino, a la Dockers and may be of lighter weight. Cotton duck and canvas are similar but have a plain weave construction(think potholders).

The natural cotton color is called "greige" and is usually a "natural" or beigey color. If the chino fabric is white, it's been bleached and has had an "optical brightener" added. It's a blueish "color" that is almost in the ultraviolet range and looks pure white to our eyes...you see it in the laundry detergent...
anyway, if you're looking for fabric here's a website.
http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/88375-AA.shtml?lnav=fabric_cotton.html

And here's way more info on denim, etc! Go to site map to look at articles...
http://jeans.com
:hi:

edited to create a working link

[Flaxbee]

27. thank you very much, wovenpaint...

I appreciate the all of the info!

When you say you're a 'textile person' - what do you mean? I've been thinking about degree programs in textiles, but I need to do a lot more research before I know what I'm talking about / really interested in.