Harvard Tries Women-Only Gym Hours

[Drunken Irishman]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004259867_apharvardwomenshours.html

What do you think of this? A bit extreme or justified?

[IndianaJones]

1. Somewhat extreme...some justification. tough choice. nt.

[CreekDog]

2. Is Temeah allowed in during these hours?

that's what I'm unclear about.

[quip]

3. No. Just my cameras, video recorders, and the like.

:evilgrin:

[MissMillie]

4. I think for a few hours a week, it's fine

in fact I think it's admirable to accommodate those whole religion makes that kind of a dictate. It shows that there's some tolerance.

FTR, I'm here at Harvard, and I knew nothing about it. It must be one of the gyms on the main campus, not at the grad schools...

[quip]

5. Really? Would an Arabic country even be so accommodating to its own women? I laugh at the thought.

[MissMillie]

6. I suppose they wouldn't

but then again, two wrongs don't make a right, do they?

[quip]

8. You are calling their interpretation of their religion wrong, and our interpretation of their

religion right?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. actually its not interpretation of religion as much as value of women

i am calling their value on women and womens health wrong.

[quip]

10. But the women in question are using religion as a pretext for special treatment

They are asking for special treatment that their own religion wouldn't ever afford them. That's messed up.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. their religion is seperate from the countries they come from

[quip]

14. I don't see how that is relevant.

Islam is a religion that is repressive to women.

[Dora]

13. How do you mean? Will you elaborate? nt

[quip]

15. They are asking for special treatment because they want to work out without men around.

My point is that I doubt that they'd even be given any consideration by the leaders of their own religion, so why would they expect it here?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. you are saying here as though there are no american muslims. muslims are not all middle eastern

and from over 'there'.

[quip]

25. Why are we even talking about Islam is my ultimate point. Religion should not be playing

ANY part in this discussion. Create a women's gym? Fine. Women's hours? Fine. But not because a group wants special treatment because of their religion.

[Rabrrrrrr]

28. Harvard provides Kosher food in its cafeterias - does that need to stop, too?

What about people who are vegetarian because of their religious beliefs, like Buddhists and Hindus, or even some Christians and others? Can the university provide vegetarian food only to those who are vegetarian only for non-religious reasons?

Cripes.

Talk about making a giant fucking mountain out of something that's even less than a molehill.

[quip]

32. First, we need to determine whether or not Harvard accepts governmental funding.

If not, then the point is mooed.

Now, food is an interesting question. But an entirely different one.

[Rabrrrrrr]

41. Why does governmental funding matter?

And why is food an entirely different issue?

If you're gonna get your underwear all wound up in a shitty little snit about one thing, might as well do it about everything, right?

Harvard, by the way, as others have pointed out, is a private institution - it is not funded by the government.

But even if it were a public institution, I would accept it providing Kosher food or Halal food, and I would accept it offering women's only time in gyms. Just as I accept public elementary, junior, and senior high schools allowing their Jewish and Muslim and other religion kids to take days off their religion's holidays. And just like I'm okay with state universities providing office and gathering space (but not salary) for religious chaplains.

Who fucking cares? Hopefully, no one. Sadly, at least one person thinks this is an issue.

[Critters2]

44. Harvard receives govet funds. Much of its research is govet funded,

Pell grants, work-study programs, etc, all constitute government funding.

[Rabrrrrrr]

46. None of that is to support the school itself - it's all grants.

And I think that's a different thing that being publicly funded.

The grants that the US gives to universities are, ostensibly, done so for the advantage of all Americans and/or the world by providing new technologies, medical understanding, new materials, new information, etc.

[Critters2]

50. You'd be wrong. This is why Bob Jones dropped its rule against

mixed race dating. It was threatened with losing its federal funding. Certainly, Harvard has a larger endowment than most and could probably get by without government funds, but it wouldn't want to. And institutions that receive federal dollars must meet federal requirements concerning discrimination.

[Critters2]

42. Does it? I've eaten in cafeterias at Harvard and never saw anything

to denote any food as kosher.

[Rabrrrrrr]

45. Aye, all of them do.

http://www.hillel.harvard.edu/pages.asp?catid=86&page_id=207

Every Harvard dining hall has a Kosher Korner, which includes frozen meals, cold cuts, cheeses, tuna fish, etc, as well as a kosher microwave and toaster oven. Furthermore, much of the food in the dining halls is certified kosher, including many breakfast cereals, an extensive salad bar, bagels, many breads, fresh fruit, and beverages

[Critters2]

48. Guess I just didn't notice cuz I wasn't looking for it.

Who knew?

[Rabrrrrrr]

49. My dear mycritters2 - just think of the huge Jewish population at Harvard.

Of COURSE they would have Kosher food! :7

All the Ivy League schools do. Probably a heck of a lot of other ones as well.

I also know for a fact that the Jewish Theological Seminary in NYC provides Kosher food. :D

[Critters2]

51. I'm just saying I never noticed it.

Didn't mean to start a thang!

[Book Lover]

52. I can eat kosher food

But were I a guy, mere possession of male gentials make these women assume that the mere glimpse of their upper arms will drive me to uncontrollable sexaul thoughts and urges. Frankly sometimes I think this "modesty" issue demeans *men* more than women.

[Dora]

20. But if their religion requires them to remain separate from men,

... then their request is in keeping with their religious practices (or mandates, OMV).

:shrug:

[quip]

22. I don't give one rat's ass what their religion says. I shouldn't have to.

It's in our Constitution.

[MissMillie]

35. you don't

nothing that Harvard is doing has any effect on you whatsoever. Not even if you were a student there.

That's like saying that the presence of a chapel on the grounds a college somehow infringes upon your rights. It doesn't.

[quip]

38. If my tax dollars are funding it, it affects me.

[dropkickpa]

23. There are women only gyms all over the middle east

I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say.

[quip]

27. And why is that? Because the men's gyms wouldn't accommodate them maybe?

[MissMillie]

33. I don't understand what you're so upset about

The fact that muslim countries treat women unfairly doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to.

Here in the U.S. these women are CHOOSING to practice their religious beliefs. No one is forcing them to do anything, and they're not being repressed.

So this particular institution recognizes the right these women have to practice their religion.

And you're bent out of shape about it?

Why?

[quip]

36. It's a dangerous road. What if the Hindus start complaining about beef being eaten

on campus? If I believed cows were sacred, I might find beef consumption pretty offensive. Would Harvard accommodate them as well? Or would they only accommodate the things that are convenient to do so? That leads to inconsistency, and it goes downhill from there.

But as I've said, if it doesn't involve my tax money, then I really don't care.

[MissMillie]

40. it's not just about something being offensive

The muslim women aren't offended by other women exercising in front of men. They are not demanding that all women practice their beliefs. They merely want the option for themselves.

Hindus do get the same courtesy. If beef is on the menu, I guarrantee that there is also a non-beef option. Would you like to guess how many options I had for lunch today? Here, at Harvard.

And as I've pointed out, tax money or not, the mere presence of these accommodations is not indicative of a violation of church and state.

This is not like a law that demands that kids be in school, and then sits them down in a government-funded classroom and holds them captive to someone else's prayer broadcast over the loudspeaker.

It's not the same.

It's not even a slippery slope.

Public colleges offer classes about religions of the world all the time. No one is forced to take them. It's not a First Amendment violation.

[MissMillie]

12. no

I'm not.

I don't think it's the interpretation of the religion that's different, just the willingness to accommodate them.

And frankly, I can understand, with or without religious mandates, why women might want to exercise without men around. Just the last week or so in the Lounge, here on DU, where we're all supposedly so enlightened about the value of women, demonstrates to me we've still got a long way to go.

[quip]

19. I am being critical of Islam's view of women, not necessarily Harvard's. WRT Harvard,

I hope that they aren't taking any fed funding, because if they are, they sure as hell better not be "respecting religion", as it is a clear violation of the Constitution and the idea of the separation of church and state.

[MissMillie]

31. Harvard is a private college

Even if it were not, lots of publicly funded places have accommodations for people who wish to pray or practice a religion (think of the chapel in any given hospital). The mere presence of these accommodations does not necessarily represent the school's (or the government's) promotion of any particular religion or religion in general. It's just a courtesy. And you know what, I applaud courtesy. The world could use a lot more of it.

I'm not sure that, for me, this "clear violation" is as "clear" as it is for you.

First of all, no one is required to use the gym. (It's not like a public high school.)

Second of all, there are about 8 or 9 gyms here. If you don't want to use the one, you can use a different one. No one is even being told that they have to avoid working out at a specific time--they have other options than this one gym.

Thirdly, there are plenty of women who would prefer to exercise without men and it has nothing to do with religious belief.

[SteppingRazor]

18. Actually, in Arabic countries, they have female-only gyms...

much less female-only gym hours.

[Kutjara]

55. And female-only swimming pools.

The compound I lived on wasn't big enough to have two pools, however, so two days a week it was "women only". The place was built with high walls around it so the genders couldn't get a look at each other.

[underpants]

7. That Jim sure is a lucky guy!!!

:bounce:

[LisaM]

17. I'm not Muslim, but I enjoy exercising in a women-only environment much more

than in a mixed environment. It's far less stressful. I used to go to a women-only swim and it was extremely enjoyable, not the least par of which was that I didn't have to worry about men from other lanes groping you as you go by (yes, this really happens).

[quip]

21. To me, his becomes a non-issue if framed in the "women-only" gym idea. I have no problem with that.

My problem is the respecting religion aspect of this story.

[LisaM]

24. Well for one thing, Harvard is a PRIVATE school that was founded on religion

It originally turned out ministers.

[quip]

26. If Harvard is indeed completely private and accepts NO governmental funds, they can

do whatever the hell they want. Good luck to them if they start down that road of accommodation.

[Critters2]

47. Still does. nt

[LisaM]

53. Well, yeah, but now they also turn out doctors, lawyers,

and captains of industry!

[TZ]

29. I think I understand what temeah's point is.

Theoretically if you are using public funding to accomodate ONE's relgious beleifs (in this case were this to be at a public university) you are in fact holding up one religion above others.
I believe this is much like the argument for mangers in public squares..If you use public funding you must accomodate all religons..IE have a Menorah,etc..
Its the all or none principle. What if someone's religous beliefs mandated them to exercise in the nude? Should a gym accomodate that as well?
I understand where women might want to have privacy while exercising but I think temeah has made a point if a little indirectly about equal treatment.
Of course since Harvard is privately funded, they CAN do as they wish, in this way.

[quip]

34. TZ, tell me more about this religion that mandates exercise in the nude!

:rofl: :hi: :hug:

[TZ]

37. I thought you would appreciate that analogy

I believe its the Cult of Zoot that endorses that.....;-)

[pokerfan]

30. But where does this end? I suppose you ladies are going to want

separate restrooms mext. :P

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. and then they'll be telling matcom he can't be in their stalls with a camera.

:rofl:

[LynneSin]

39. Your title is a bit mis-leading

Yes, it's 'women-only' but should have mentioned it was done to accomodate Muslim women.

I really don't get the culture of Muslim women and why they put up with being treated inferior- but I'm not Muslim so who am I to judge.

Perhaps instead of shutting the gym down for a few hours having a 'women's only' gym. There are some women who just feel uncomfortable in general working out in front of men.

[Drunken Irishman]

57. It was the title of the article.

[youthere]

54. I can see both sides of this...

but what a can of worms...glad I didn't have to make this decision.

[x-g.o.p.er]

56. It's discrimination...

against men and non-Muslims. And discrimination, in any form, is wrong.

I doubt a Muslim country would be as accomodating.