is Church A Waste Of A Good Sunday?

[Parche]

:shrug: :shrug: :popcorn: :hi:

[Swede]

1. If you're a practicing Christian it's the right place

If you are not,well sleep on.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

106. Bingo

I was going to reply but can't add anything to what you've already said.

If this were LinkedIn instead of DU, you'd take the "best answer" award.

:patriot:

[LeftyMom]

2. It's also a waste of time, land, money, dead trees, tax breaks...

[quip]

8. Better uses for those things?

:shrug:

[LeftyMom]

9. Pretty much anything.

Reserving a cavernous space for spending an hour or two a week mumbling at one's imaginary friend is pretty much the definition of waste.

[quip]

10. Then they collect money and give it to needy people. Look at the WHOLE picture

[LeftyMom]

11. Mostly they collect money to build more wasted space and convert more people to god bothering.

If they want to help poor people, they could build housing on the property and mumble skyward from home. Or better yet, skip the mumbling and go volunteer those two hours for a real cause.

[quip]

12. No. You aren't paying attention, or you just don't want to.

[LeftyMom]

13. The poorest neighborhood in my town has a huge church.

It must have taken millions upon millions to build- even in a poor neighborhood the huge lot alone has to be worth a ton of money. Meanwhile, the neighboring houses are just crumbling for lack of simple repairs and maintainance. The money that went into building that church could rehab every home for blocks and around and build housing on any number of empty lots that currently house only vermin, garbage and drug dealers.

Instead that church sucks up the money of the neighborhood's poor and elderly, and I'm supposed to praise it for dribbling a little back into the community?

Religion is a parasite on society.

[Brigid]

24. Is the church building an older one?

When I lived in Indianapolis, I used to go to a large, attractive Methodist church that was built in the '30's. Back in those days, it was a fairly nice neighborhood, I was told. Now it is one of the worst in town, and the congregation surely could not afford to build it now. But it does host a day care center and a farmer's market, as well as a food pantry. So it does a lot of good in the area.

The church I go to now is also located in a fairly decent area. It was built in the '50's, with the look of a modest Irish abbey about it. It hosts a soup kitchen and has a large school attached that does a lot of good for the kids in the neighborhood. So it isn't all about grand architecture. I'm sure anyone in the congregation would agree that having a grand building to meet in while doing nothing to help your fellow human beings, as Christ commands, is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

[LeftyMom]

28. If I'm not mistaken, it was built in the late 80's or early 90's

which coincides with the neighborhood's seediest period.

It's really disgusting- a huge megachurch kinda thing, pastoral luxury car in dedicated spot out front, and half the houses across the street ought to be condemned. The sad thing is, the poor old ladies in those falling down houses probably toss ten percent of their social security in the offering, sure it's going to do them some good.

[Brigid]

30. If this church is not helping those in the neighborhood . . .

and has a building like that, then of course you are right -- it is not worthy of support. I certainly hope the poor in that neighborhood did not donate money to build it. The church should be helping them -- not the other way around.

[Critters2]

38. If the poor of the neighborhood choose to use their money that way,

who are you to decide they shouldn't?

Nothing is more annoying than limousine liberal condescension.

[LeftyMom]

45. Somebody who objects to scamming the poor

It's obscene that there are so many churches in that neighborhood, ranging from the big one down to tiny converted houses, with the obligatory pastoral mercedes out front (yeah, I know you drive a ford- but every greedy fuck fleecing the sheep out here has a mercedes or a lexus) in a neighborhood where people need help from the school district and the bus system to pay for their kid's bus ride to school. Taking money from people who don't have it to give is disgusting. Doing it while dangling the carrot of heaven and waving the stick of hell is evil.

Edit: Limousine liberal? :rofl: I'm not sure an eleven year old station wagon qualifies me.

[Critters2]

46. Well, okay. But I do drive a Ford. And it needs a new alternator.

Which I can barely afford.

How do people get these Mercedes?

[LeftyMom]

50. Apparently ripping off the poor pays well out here.

Either that or we have a problem with clerical car theft, which I kinda doubt. I suppose they could all be independently wealthy, or supported by very successful wives, or have oil wells in their back yards, but I kinda doubt it.

[quip]

40. You only choose to see the negative. Name any other institution, and multiply

the good it does by 1,000,000, and you won't even come close to the amount of good the Christian churches do.

Because there are always the few bad examples on which to fixate. Whatever.

[LeftyMom]

47. Those would be the churches that

work to:

elect Republicans
rob women of control over their bodies
stop scientific advancement
teach children ignorant crap so they won't question religion
deny glbt people their rights...

[quip]

49. Nice sweeping, (but woefully ignorant) generalization. Name an institution, please.

[LeftyMom]

53. Other than govermental ones, I'm hard pressed to think of one with a fraction of the budget.

But off the top of my head, Planned Parenthood does much more for women's and children's health care than any of the church-run hospital systems here, for much less money.

[quip]

55. What is Planned Parenthood doing for women and children in Africa? In Russia? In China?

in Latin America? Christian churches help out 10,000s more women and children than PP could ever dream of.

Open your eyes; open your mind.

[LeftyMom]

56. do they have a fraction of the money that churches do?

I'd rather PP told women in the emerging world about birth control and provided basic health care than churches told them to have more babies for the sky daddy and stay away from condoms. A pap smear and some birth control would save and improve lives, superstition serves to repress women and harm society.

[Critters2]

59. Doctors supported by my denomination do educate women

about birth control and other women's health issues. Just had a couple speak at my church in February who are home on furlough from exactly this work in Honduras.

[LeftyMom]

60. And the RCC and the LDS and how many other larger churches don't?

For every poor woman you guys teach about birth control, how many in Africa get told that condoms help to spread aids, or that even married couples where one spouse has HIV and the other does not would sin to use a condom?

How many women die because churches have pushed for stronger laws against abortion, so strong that doctors won't even intervene in doomed tubal pregnancies until the fallopian tube ruptures, for fear of prosecution?

There is no possible way for a few relatively liberal denominations to undo or mitigate in any significant way the great evil that religion perpetrates against women.

[Critters2]

63. We're trying. What are atheist organizations doing? nt

[LeftyMom]

70. Trying to keep Christians from running this country into the ground, mostly.

There are plenty of secular organizations, no doubt supported by plenty of individual atheists, working on any number of worthy causes. Which makes more sense, why should there be an Atheist Children's Fund? Just feed the poor kids and keep the ideology out of it entirely.

[quip]

65. Either you are being obtuse or you are really ignorant on this subject

Missionaries spread the Gospel by serving their fellow human beings in need, not by forcing doctrines down peoples' throats. You need to educate yourself.

People will give their money where they think it will help the most. This is an indictment on PP, that's all.

[Critters2]

67. Yeah, it's really hard to get a missionary call as a pastor in the UCC.

Doctors, nurses, ag workers, they can get calls. Pastors, not so much.

[LeftyMom]

71. Wouldn't it do more good to just help people and leave the religious nonsense out?

Most third world villages would benefit a lot more from distributions of say, translations of Emergency Childbirth, than by handing out bibles. One would provide practical information that would save a lot of lives, the other's inspired the killing of how many millions?

[Critters2]

73. We don't hand out BIbles unless asked to do so by the indigenous people.

Missionaries of my tradition take their orders from the local church leadership. If they want to hand out Bibles, then your criticizing of that is the cultural imperialism you claim to oppose.

[LeftyMom]

76. But cultural imperialism put the local church there.

They didn't just wake up one day and decide they wanted to be Christians, then wait around until a missionary showed up to teach them prayers.

Once you've sent somebody out to introduce this idea, that our religion is good and yours is bad, and by the way we brought some books and medicine, and you'd best convert if you'd like to get to heaven, you can't grow up a bit as a denomination, think you're beyond that sort of manipulative nonsense and say, oh, well now they're inviting us. Ideas are viral, and somebody introduced that virus into an area with no defenses. Of course it established itself. That doesn't make furthering the destruction of existing cultural practices ethical.

[Critters2]

77. Again, you're assuming that non-North Americans are unable to

fully know their own history and make informed choices. They're every bit as able as you to see what has happened in their history and decide whether they want to reject ideas brought from other cultures or accept them. They don't need you telling them what's best for them any more than they need foreign missionaries telling them. You're every bit as much a Westerner wanting to tell other cultures what to do as any missionary.

[LeftyMom]

80. No, I'm saying to err on the side of leaving them alone.

Ever watch Star Trek? That whole prime directive thing was a pretty good principle- noninterference in other cultures that can't interact on an equal basis.

Because a society that's desperately needy isn't in a good position to say they'll take the well, but they'd prefer to keep their own religion. If your kid shat herself to death two winters ago, how do you say, "no, we would rather keep our own belief system" when you're worried the promised water filtration system might not come if you do? And if the kids need vaccines, you keep quiet about the prayers the schoolchildren are being taught, because you can live with the prayers if none of them die this year, and next thing you know a huge fraction of your local culture, something that's existed for who knows how long, is fading. Then the old people who kept the old ways die off, and the kids who grew up after the missionaries came are all that's left, and nobody even remembers what was lost, except maybe as a joke about one's superstitious old grandmother and her odd beliefs, and then even that bit fades, and it's all gone except in some dusty tome of cultural anthropology kept in a few university libraries.

[Critters2]

83. Yep, those are exactly the goals of my faith.

Thanks for getting it.

I'm going to leave you to your smugness. I have ravioli to eat.

Have a good night.

[Sock Puppet]

109. good idea Rev

There's no arguing this. The hatred is strong here.

:pals:

[madinmaryland]

90. Why the FUCK do you call people indigenous. They are fellow human

being who unfortunately less fortunate than you are.

Stop belittling them and trying to convert them to YOUR religion.

:grr:

[Critters2]

101. Haven't tried to convert them,

and the atheist with whom I was in conversation first used the term "indigenous". I do call them people.

Please go bitch at your fellow atheist for her use of that term. I don't even think they are less fortunate than me. Interesting that the atheists here are the ones who think people of other cultures need their help. I don't assume people of other cultures are less fortunate than me. Why do you?

[Sock Puppet]

110. Do you know what that word means? It's not an insult.

Main Entry: in·dig·e·nous
Pronunciation: \in-ˈdi-jə-nəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin indigenus, from Latin indigena, noun, native, from Old Latin indu, endo in, within + Latin gignere to beget — more at end-, kin
Date: 1646
1 : having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment <indigenous plants> <the indigenous culture>
2 : innate, inborn

[southlandshari]

141. For some of us, the religious nonsense

isn't nonsense at all. It is the deepest motivation for helping others we know.

What it shouldn't be is something that we as Christians wield like a weapon, or dangle like a carrot, expecting some sort of reaction or indebtedness or behavior or reward in return for simply doing the right thing as Christ modeled.

FWIW, I agree with you that translations of a practical book on childbirth is a far more appropriate gift than a Bible in certain settings.

I just think the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

[fudge stripe cookays]

136. So...

what are those guys in ties on my front porch doing to serve fellow human beings, exactly, other than knocking on my door and trying to force their doctrine down my throat?

I disagree with LeftyMom about a lot, but she's spot on here. I think organized religion is crap. And this is from an ex Catholic who was forced to go to Catholic school for 4 years.

I'd rather support PP as well. Any organization that fights the ignorance that is being propagated by the church to keep women poor and their health and rights compromised definitely needs my money. I'd rather put it there than a collection plate.

[madinmaryland]

89. Thank you LM! Churches will only do what their doctrine says to do,

whereas PP actually supports women's needs.

[Critters2]

51. My church does all of that,

when we're not sacrificing goats on the front lawn.

Busy, busy, busy!

[Critters2]

62. Or the churches that do these things:

http://www.tucc.org/ministries.htm

[dropkickpa]

114. Make-A-Wish

Over 78 percent of donations go *directly* towards wish fulfillment. All without telling the dying kid he's going to hell if he don't pray and believe.

[RadiationTherapy]

119. links?

[laconicsax]

116. Your last line there...

:yourock:

[lizziegrace]

52. Our congregation houses homeless families every weekend,

provides all the bedding for a shelter, builds houses with Habitat and on and on and on.

Please don't make broad, sweeping generalizations about churches and those who believe.

"Imaginary friend"? I find that offensive and patronizing.

[Fran Kubelik]

117. Yes indeed lizziegrace

This has been bothering me since I first read it last night. Thanks for speaking up.

[RadiationTherapy]

120. Why would "imaginary friend" be insulting?

I look down, generally, at religions, but I pray, give thanks and worship every day; I even use the words god and jesus (gasp!). Is jesus my imaginary friend? You bet.

Love ya, j-man! Talk at you later!

[youthere]

27. Most of them don't ...

I worked as a denominational consultant for many years before I saw the light. Your average church works to raise money to build the church...to raise money...to build the church...and on and on and on.
For the most part they have no mission beyond building up the $$ in their general funds. There are exceptions, but for the most part...unh unh. I also worked a lot with consultants from other mainline denominations, and trust me..it was the same picture for ALL of them...Lutheran, Methodist, UCC, Disciples, even Baptist.

[Deep13]

44. Not really, most of that is for church upkeep.

Churches are a diverse group of course. Some of them give aid with religious strings attached. Many evangelicals thing converting souls IS charity. However charitable Christianity is, I doubt it makes up for reduced school and local service funding by the lost tax revenue.

Donating to ones own social club is not charity.

[quip]

48. Most of church budgets are for payroll. Further, most churches of which I'm aware give at least 10%

of their annual budgets for missions. And by missions, that means supporting people who help other people around the world.

Churches run day cares, after school programs, meal programs, homeless shelter programs, host food drives, blood drives, and a meeting place for a myriad of groups like AA, GA, etc. And that's just the beginning.

It would be immensely costly for the local governments to take on these types of programs! Sorry.

[LeftyMom]

54. Missions destroy indigenous cultures.

Missions are cultural imperialism, not charity.

AA groups pay rent for their spaces, they believe in maintaining their own independence. So churches don't support them any more than strip malls do- they just allow them to rent space.

Church run daycares and schools used to be popular because most of the costs could be written off of one's taxes as a donation to the church. When that changed in the early 80's, most of the small church schools and daycares evaporated. Turns out without a taxpayer handout, they weren't profitable. Furthermore, church daycares tend to be some of the worst, in terms of adult to child ratios and training of the care providers- often they're exempt from permit requirements, under exemptions meant to protect care during the sermon, not running a center as a business.

Governments could afford more social programs if churches paid taxes and weren't such a drain on the economy.

[Critters2]

57. The twelve step meetings in our church don't pay rent.

We don't charge rent for non-profit groups. It's completely free--we pay utilities, etc.

Nelson Mandela, among others, has praised the education he received from missionaries. When I was in Zimbabwe, people teared up when talking about the work of David Livingstone.

Imperialism is you deciding for indigenous people what they do and do not consider imperialism.

[LeftyMom]

64. They're actually violating their on tennets then. They're supposed to maintain independence.

It's one of their principles, they're supposed to take it very seriously. My mom used to run the H&I/PI training days for NA out here, and they did use a church facility, but they paid rent and were scrupulously careful to bring their own materials (which, with 12 step people, mostly means shitpiles of coffee and cups) and to clean up after themselves.

Then again, some groups take those rules less seriously than others- my mom was horrified when she found out another 12 step group had some late night PSAs running, as not actively promoting the organization, except by living as a good example of it's effectiveness, is another one of those things they're supposed to take seriously.

[Critters2]

66. Well, we won't accept funds from non-profits. So, I guess it's a standoff.

Maybe they offered to pay once upon a time, but we don't take rent payments from non-profit community groups. That's one of our tenets. I guess our tenets clashed.

[quip]

61. Cultural imperialism???? You have no idea what the hell you are talking about!!!!

So, for example, you would not have a church go into, say, Tanzania, and build a school and a well, and a clinic because that would be "cultural imperialism??" Better to let people live in their own cultural sickness, poverty, ignorance!

Honestly, I am incredulous.

The rest of your statements are just vague generalizations that mean nothing. What taxes would you want a church to pay? Are you suggesting that the government abolish non-profits and deductions on charitable giving?

[LeftyMom]

69. Normally non-profits have to jump through a lot of hoops

Set up a board, show that they benefit the community, blah blah. The burden is on the charity to prove that it is, in fact, a charity, and then they get the exemption, which may be limited in scope and require separate books for exempt and non-exempt functions. Churches? Suddenly the burden is reversed, they're churches until the gov't proves they're not, which only happens in rare cases of obvious scams, if then. Scientology is an official and tax exempt church, so apparently the bar is sufficiently low that a worm could scale it. Likewise, Churches get exemptions for tangential activities, often political in scope or set up primarily to put more people on the payroll with no obvious community benefit, and if questioned the tangential activity is usually "a vital part of our ministry."

The problem is that with the school, well, or clinic, comes imperialist bullshit. Our religion is better than yours, you're going to have to learn our language for services, now that you're a churchgoing boy we should get you some proper church clothes instead of these heathen rags... How many indigenous languages are lost to antiquity? How many cultures simply vanished? It's imperialism to sell desperate people a well at the cost of their culture, especially when their poverty was often caused by exploitative policies in the first world anyhow.

A speaker at one of my classes recently talked about her mission experience in Africa recently. I don't know what country, she never bothered to say. Honestly, I don't know if she knew, the girl did not strike me as the brightest bulb on the tree. She did mention that with six years in whatever country it was, she learned only a handful of words in just one of the native languages. I do think that's unfortunately quite typical- she regarded the people who surrounded her, no doubt fascinating people, only as potential converts (and since her church was until recently officially racist, that probably didn't help her to see her new neighbors as people,) and that colored her interactions with them.

[Critters2]

72. Maybe in California. In both of the states where I've served,

churches have to jump through the same hoops as other non-profits. And we have to provide paperwork every two years showing we've been doing what we're supposed to. I know. I fill out the "Board of Directors" cards, and run around getting board members' signatures.

And again, you're using a broadbrush. I applied, years ago, for a pastorate in Chile (with an indigenous church--again, we don't send missionaries except to work for the indigenous org). My Spanish is pretty good, was even better then, because I had just spent three years working in Chelsea, MA. But it wasn't good enough to qualify for that work. I wasn't sent because I don't speak Spanish well enough. The idea that I would go without speaking the language was just not a possibility. And my denomination has enough native Spanish speakers, that they didn't need to spend time training me. Language fluency is a must for overseas work in my tradition.

And you'll have a "yes, but" and make some broad generalization about fundies or soemone.

[LeftyMom]

78. The latest estimate I've seen is that a human language dies out every two weeks.

We're losing indigenous cultures at an appalling rate. Many aren't even well documented, so we won't even be able to tell the descendants much about their heritage. Missionary work is a big cause of this cultural assimilation, and it's based in the terrifically unethical idea that some religions and cultures are inherently better than others. After all, why bother with missionary work if the missionaries didn't think the people they prey upon should convert? I've been to quite a few "missions nights" (I used to be quite religious, but I got better) and the talk was all about souls won, not wells dug.

[Critters2]

79. Another broad brush. I've never been to a "Missions Night"

and I don't worry about souls. Not even certain I know what a soul is. Not worried about whether people in foreign nations convert, either.

I'm not a fundamentalist, so please a)don't tell me what I believe; and b)don't judge my faith by another.

Did you miss the post about what Trinity Church is doing? If so, I missed your response. My church isn't that large, so doesn't have that many programs. But I think Trinity is pretty impressive, and seems to be serving poor people and everything.

[LeftyMom]

81. This isn't about your church.

This was a discussion about the value of church generally, and this subthread is about missionary activity. So your experience doesn't invalidate anybody else's.

[Critters2]

84. Nor do your broadbrushes negate my experience. nt

[RadiationTherapy]

122. Does the school and well get built with or without proselytizing?

[Critters2]

129. Without, in my tradition.

My congregation sponsors four children--through our denomination--two Christian (one in Haiti, one in Jamaica), one Buddhist in Dharamsala, and one Muslim in Jerusalem. The non-Christians are not expected to convert. Indeed, many members of my congregation would be MOST unhappy if they thought that was a goal.

We just build wells.

[Critters2]

68. Another interesting point.

My denomination doesn't send missionaries to any country without an invitation from the indigenous church. And once there, missionaries work for the local church--not for the American church. They answer to the local congregation or hospital or whomever, and to the local judicatory. Missionaries are sent as gifts to churches based on what the local church needs. We work in partnership with indigenous peoples.

[Taverner]

125. YES YES YES - I SAW THIS FIRST HAND IN THAILAND

Wanna hear some horror stories? I lived in Thailand and the missionaries were the WORST! They'd go see Prostitutes and whatnot, but come Sunday they were out to make Thailand into a little America.

[madinmaryland]

91. temeah? ??

[RadiationTherapy]

121. the "mission" is conversion. Don't lie.

[Ptah]

126. Here's another mission:

http://www.humaneborders.org/about/about_wstations.html

http://www.humaneborders.org/about/about_quickfacts.html

[RadiationTherapy]

127. And this is done without recruiting 'souls'? That is great. Just don't pretend most 'missions'

Aren't about proselytizing.

As if I would be against humanitarian aid.

[Ptah]

128. I have no idea what most missions are about.

This one is about helping souls, not recruiting.

[Critters2]

130. Guiding Principle No. 5 of the Board of Global Ministries

of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and United Church of Christ:

5. Recognizing the freedom of God's Spirit to act in diverse ways, we commit ourselves to engage in dialogue, witness, and common cause with people of other faiths and movements with whom we share a vision of peace, justice, and integrity of creation.


Dialogue, witness and common cause. Not conversion.

[RadiationTherapy]

133. Thanks. I concede the point.

I ain't gonna be the guy who is 'attacking christianity' it is too exhausting.

Let's just be honest with each other and everyone; there is too much at stake regarding our individual experiences with religion, so there is no ground to give nor minds to change.

Twas brillig and the slithy toves...

[southlandshari]

140. I agree with you

Thank God there are so many fantastic churches here and around the world that are open and active in service every day and night of the week!

Because frankly, this Christian finds that hour or two reserved for traditional worship on Sunday mornings to be one of the less inspiring times of her week more often than not.

;)

[Arugula Latte]

16. Agree completey, LeftyMom.

Religion is a huge waste of resources of every kind. And I say that about all religions. I'm an equal opportunity religion insulter. (except for Buddhism, which seems more like a philosophy).

[Manifestor_of_Light]

137. I think Buddhists are atheists.

At least they never talk about a god concept. Just trying to reach enlightenment and helping other beings reach enlightenment.

[datasuspect]

25. i know, what were they thinking when they built the Sistine Chapel

or St. Peter's Basilica.

[YankeyMCC]

99. "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches"-Ben Franklin

[LSK]

3. wouldnt know, never tried it

:hide:

[Blue-Jay]

4. As an atheist, I'm gonna say NO.

[lizziegrace]

5. Not for me

but I don't demand or expect everyone hold the same beliefs as I...

I believe in mutual respect.

[fizzgig]

36. excellent reply, lizzie

:thumbsup:

[Fran Kubelik]

41. thank you

:hi:

[Sequoia]

6. Not that church.

I like those old clapboard churches. How about this chruch:



So like, I was watching "Beneath The Planet of The Apes" and there was the cathederal all in ruins with the strange Earthlings underground. I'm watching it, and suddenly I yell out, Hey! That's the inside of St. Patty's!

[dembotoz]

7. only if you are running for president

and the preacher strays from the "approved" text

[Throd]

14. Are the Niners on TV?

[Throd]

19. Well shit, now that I ponder it, lately the Niners are a waste of a good Sunday.

[LeftyMom]

23. They had to have a bad stretch eventually

so we'd know how Raider fans feel. :P

[Arugula Latte]

15. Definitely. Can't think of a worse waste of time than to sit in a musty, stinky

church and listen to mythology made up 2,000 years ago presented as "truth."

[CaliforniaPeggy]

17. My dear Parche...

I can only speak for myself, and I know my husband agrees...

For us, it would be a complete waste of time!

I tend to be spiritual, not religious...

:hi:

[AnneD]

18. Depends on who you are with....

Until I met my group of fellow liberal subversives-I would have thought it was a waste. Now, it is the highlight of my week. I hate to miss it. We are going paint our Easter cross in a riotous mix of graffiti colours this year. It will blend in with the bohemian neighbourhood. We will be giving it a general scrub down too. The best thing of all-the Good Friday service will be at noon. We were shocked at how many folks are showing up. We aren't a mega church-just a small neighbourhood church that is over a hundred years old. We have an active food pantry and try to help our neighbours and members. Woe to the homeless that sleeps a drunk off on our grounds. We feed 'em and put them on a committee.

[Brigid]

20. Been going for years . . .

and not once have considered it a waste of time. Of course, I never went to a fundie church . . .

[CreekDog]

21. Maybe you should ask God if all those lightning bolts are a waste of energy.

:evilgrin:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

22. That would depend on you, your beliefs and which church you have chosen.

[youthere]

26. As far as I'm concerned it is.

[hellbound-liberal]

29. Though I am not a member of any organized church, I respect the good works that many of them do.

Not too long ago, I learned about Wangari Maathai who is the founder of the Green Belt Movement, an environmentalist, a civil society and women's rights activist, and a parliamentarian. She was born in Nyeri, Kenya, in 1940, the daughter of farmers in the highlands of Mount Kenya. The first woman in East and Central Africa to earn a doctoral degree, Professor Maathai obtained a degree in Biological Sciences from Mount St. Scholastica College in Atchison, Kansas (1964). She subsequently earned a Master of Science degree from the University of Pittsburgh (1966). She pursued doctoral studies in Germany and the University of Nairobi, obtaining a Ph.D. (1971) from the University of Nairobi, where she also taught veterinary anatomy. She won the Nobel Prize in 2004 and she would never have been able to amass her incredible list of accomplishments if it wasn't for Christian missionaries. I think we all have our roles to serve and religions can be good as well as bad. It is only when we become so sure of our own positions and are unwilling to listen to others that we become our own worst enemies. Here is a link to her website:

http://greenbeltmovement.org/w.php?id=3

[Critters2]

75. This is an interesting story. Thanks for sharing it.

I have real respect for Maathai and her work, but didn't know much about her personal history. Thanks!

[RadiationTherapy]

124. I respect ALL good works, churchified or otherwise.

I do not respect an organization (or person) just because they (or their affiliates) have done SOME good.

[Generic Brad]

31. To each their own

And that attitude of mine directly contributed to my mother telling me I was destined for hell.

[BarenakedLady]

32. For me, yes.

But I'm sure it isn't for many others.

[Guava Jelly]

33. For me it is

But I respect others who may feel diferent

[Fox Mulder]

34. Yes it is.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

35. It would be for me, since I won't "do" church except under duress.

However, it might not be for others. YMMV, I guess.

[Critters2]

37. Not when I'm preachin', it's not!! :)

[Parche]

98. Do You Preach With Your Fingers???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:hi:

:hug:

[Critters2]

132. When necessary!

I would if you came to church!

[Zorra]

39. What's Sunday got to do with it? n/t

[Deep13]

42. It's a waste of a BAD Sunday.

Nice architecture, though.

[mondo joe]

43. It is for me. Not for those who enjoy it.

[Adsos Letter]

74. ...best answer...

[AwakeAtLast]

58. Some are, some are not

For those that only go for the social, see and be seen aspect I would say, "Yes."

For those who go to worship as they see fit and find true spiritual peace, I would say, "Absolutely not."

[Bake]

82. I do love good congregational singing.

That's how I learned to sing harmony. That, and then choir, of course.

Bake

[Critters2]

85. I have a Quaker friend who organized once-a-month hymn sings

at her meeting, because she missed congregational singing so. They get together one evening a month, and get a good crowd together.

[Bake]

88. That is totally COOOOOL!

I really love the big majestic hymns. "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God." "Holy Holy Holy." "Crown Him With Many Crowns."

Baptists, of course, never sing the third stanza of "Just As I Am." LOL! "We going to stand and sing the first, second and last stanza of hymn number 241, Just As I Am." Third verse always left out!

When I was in the seminary in Louisville, we'd go to chapel and when the place was packed, and the organist would pull out all the stops, the congregational singing would just blast the roof off the place!!

Bake

[madinmaryland]

92. I have a headache after this Bake. I thought this thread was about Brazillions!

And I still have no freaking clue as to how much a brazilian is?

:shakeshead:

[Bake]

93. Do NOT post the Brazillion joke here, dammit!

This is a SERIES thread!!!!11!11!!!!

Bake

But feel free to post it elsewhere! I love that joke every single time!! Seriesly!!11!1!!!

[madinmaryland]

94. Sereisly, what's that? Is this something relkely HUGH!! OMFG!!!!1

Am I screwn now that I am casting asparagus?

:hi:

mim

[Tuesday Afternoon]

86. about like anything else --

You get out of it what you put into it.

[BreweryYardRat]

87. Yes. But then, I'm against organized religion of any sort.

It's not healthy.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

95. It's a waste of any day, as far as I'm concerned.

So many better things to be doing--like actually living.

:shrug:

[Orsino]

96. If you go on the Sundays when they're not sacrificing babies.

I mean, what's the point?

[mikeytherat]

97. It beats the heck out of playing golf, that's for sure!

mikey_the_rat

[LanternWaste]

100. Nice fellowship. Good life lessons. Good friends.

Nice fellowship. Good life lessons. Good friends. Great brunches.

If that's considered a waste, I'd hate to see what 'hoarding' a Sunday would be like...

[Midlodemocrat]

102. I go Saturday nights.

Not the answer you were looking for, is it?

I enjoy it. It's the right thing for me; for others, not so much.

[Parche]

107. They Have Church Bunco?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

108. That would be Bingo.

:hi:

[Breeze54]

103. Absolutely!

:hi:

[RebelOne]

104. Sure is, says this atheist.

[arthritisR_US]

105. ditto! n/t

[Parche]

115. I am spiritual

Believe in a higher power, which there has to be, no one can deny that
but i dont believe in organized religion at all....any religion is the blasphemy
of all mankind

:hi:

[HERVEPA]

111. Yup. and synagogue a waste of a good Saturday and/or Friday Night.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

112. If you're at a good church. it's a great way to spend a Sunday morning

A lot of the criticisms that some people on this thread have indicates that their only experiences are with free-lance fundamentalists, who DO exploit the poor, DO preach Republicanism, and ARE intolerant.

However, to say that all Christians are like that is like saying that all Leftists are like Pol Pot or Stalin. You can't take the worst examples of a group and make them typical of the whole.

A few facts here:

1. Clergy in mainstream denominations do not have a free hand in running their church. They are answerable to a board elected from among the congregation and to their denominational headquarters. In some denominations, there is a standard salary/benefit scale, depending on the size of the church. Special offerings go to special needs, NOT into the pockets of the clergy.

For example, there's a food shelf in downtown Minneapolis sponsored by a consortium of churches. It was running low on food, due to increased demand, so the churches held a special appeal two Sundays ago, asking members who had the resources to contribute $10.

2. I've occasionally seen DUers say that clergy don't pay income tax. That's...just...plain...false.

3. Missionaries did more for women's rights in Africa and Asia than just about any group I can think of. They founded the first schools that admitted girls, lobbied against childhood marriage and forced marriage, against female genital mutilation, against the customs of footbinding (in China) and suttee (in India), and against sexual slavery (in Japan). And not only women benefited. In most colonial situations, it was only the missionaries who were interested in educating the local people AT ALL.

4. Christian relief groups from mainstream denominations--Catholic Charities, Lutheran World Relief, Episcopal Relief and Development, and others--are always among the first responders when there is a disaster or refugee crisis anywhere in the world. They do not proselytize. In fact, fundamentalists criticize them for, say, setting up aid programs in the tsunami area without trying to convert the mostly Muslim and Buddhist local people.

Whatever criticisms you have of the fundamentalists, I probably share them. In the non-denominational churches in particular, there is no oversight, no set of standards, nothing to ensure that the minister has a proper education in religion and theology and is psychologically sound.

In my denomination, before you can even enter the seminary, you have to go through two years of evaluation, first by a committee from your home parish and then by a committee from the diocese. After you've completed seminary and practical experience in parish work and chaplaincy, they STILL might not ordain you if they have doubts about your ability to work effectively in a parish.

[grannylib]

113. I agree with those who said " if you're a Christian, then no" or words

to that effect. I'm trying to get back in the habit; there are things about it that I really miss, but at the same time I'm SO fed up with most organized religion, including my own, it's hard to know how to act...
I really feel as though I should be attending worship regularly, there's just kind of a hole in my life again, and I think that's what it is. And the services themselves are only about an hour's worth of time each week; it's not the time thing at all for me. And I try (and often fail) to live my faith on a daily basis, and that wouldn't change with or without weekly worship, but it's just that specifically that I think I miss.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

118. Waste?

For the superstitious engaged in spreading the poison
that is religion, it is anything but a waste!

[nytemare]

131. As a reformed Christian....

meaning a current Atheist who enjoys reading about the Buddhist philosophy, I wish I had found my current state of being a long time ago. I recognize the magical thinking I was so addicted to earlier in my life. At the time, I thought there was nothing better I could do with my time, now, I realize what an empty gesture it was.

[Taverner]

123. Yes - and think about it

If you created the world and whatnot, would you really think it's the best use of your creations time to dress up, grovel, kneel on completely uncomfortable bars, sit still and sing songs about you?

[madrchsod]

134. was`t when i was a kid but as soon as i went to high school

sunday morning was for sleeping. i figured i had enough sunday school to last me a lifetime and it actually has!

[auntAgonist]

135. Why is that even a question? If you are in church

on any Sunday, hopefully it's because you want to be there. Therefore it's not a waste. Certainly not to those who practice their faith or religion.

It's really not an issue.

aA
kesha

[LordJFT]

138. most definitely

[southlandshari]

139. Hell no it's not a waste of time!!

In fact, I plan to pray to God this coming Easter Sunday to bring back his old skool plagues and locusts and to use my time kneeling at the alter during Holy Communion to pray about who ought to be at the top of the almighty righteous vengance list this time around.

:hi:












































Hope you find a can in your Easter basket on Sunday, darlin'.


:)