I hate my job.

[Critters2]

The glbts think I'm not publicly supportive of their issues enough, not attracting lgbt people to the church. The more conservative people are utterly terrified that I'm going to turn this into a "gay church". And whatever happens, either way, it's completely, 100% my fault.

Sometimes, I wish I worked in a factory where I'd go home at the end of a shift, and if the widgets weren't turning out right in the next shift, no one would bother me about it.

How's your day been?

[Pale Blue Dot]

1. How's religion working out for you?

Sorry to be snarky, but it seems to me that now would be the perfect time to begin searching for the answers to questions you've probably been avoiding.

[Critters2]

2. Oh, yeah. Snarky condescension is the answer to my problems.

Thanks for reminding me what I find unattractive about atheism. And what makes you think I've been avoiding any questions? You're clairvoyant? I don't use the ignore button much, but I'm grateful it exists.

[Pale Blue Dot]

4. Ignore me if you want,

but what is the REAL reason why you're being so defensive?

[TZ]

6. Finnfan....

Maybe she just had a really really bad day...Look, If I went on here and posted about a bad day at my job (which I do from time to time) would you ask me if I was ready to accept homeopathy? Or beleive anti-vaxxers?
You know I like you but I wish you would just...let this go.
I understand somewhat where you are coming from but I think this is a little over the top

[Pale Blue Dot]

10. Let me rephrase it for you:

"I hate my job at the New Age health clinic. The doctors think I'm not publicly supportive of their issues enough, not getting people to get vaccinated. The more conservative people are utterly terrified that I'm going to turn this into a "autism factory". And whatever happens, either way, it's completely, 100% my fault."

[LanternWaste]

88. Guess the OP's not the only one having a bad day and venting...

Guess the OP's not the only one having a bad day and venting...

[The Straight Story]

22. Which would be what?

:shrug:

[Pale Blue Dot]

26. Is this true?

Is there any evidence that it's true? Is my commitment to my faith, which is not based on any evidence, worth appeasing homophobes?

[The Straight Story]

29. We don't know if a lot of things are true

We guess that they may be then invest our time and money into looking into such things. Black holes were once nothing more than a theory (as were quarks, string theory, etc and so on).

We invest a lot in SETI based on an assumption. Nothing proven to date. But we still believe it is worth investing in.

It is no stretch, to me, to believe that there is a 'master programmer' somewhere out there. I can't prove it either right now, but it has a logical basis. And just like a programmer there are limits (and the problem we have as humans is trying to understand what that term 'God' means - and it is complex, God is not all powerful - yet we see him/her/it as so all too often).

Someday we may have the technology to catch up to our ideals, in the meantime though it does not mean those ideals have no basis in reality.

[Pale Blue Dot]

31. Black holes are a scientific theory

One that is testable and falsifiable. You can make predictions about the way the universe works based on the theory of black holes, and then do testing to see if those theories come to pass. Those tests have been performed and have confirmed those predictions. Had those predictions been proven wrong, science would have abandoned the theory of black holes long ago.

Think about a god belief. What testable, falsifiable predictions can you make about an all-knowing, omnipresent, "good" god? How do you test them? What would believers do if those predictions, after testing, turn out to be wrong?

The belief in a "master programmer" is an extraordinary belief, no less so simply because most of the world "believes" it. There has to be a way to test this theory. What predictions can you make based upon this belief? Most importantly, what would cause you to stop believing in a "master programmer"? If the answer is "nothing", then you are NOT thinking logically.

[sammythecat]

60. I haven't read all the comments yet, but ...damn

What are you trying to do here and is it really necessary?

If I pressed for an answer, I'd say I'm an atheist. So I agree with you on that, but there's a passage from the bible that all of us are familiar with. I can't quote it, but it's the one about a time to sow, and a time to reap, a time to die and a time to live. Something like that. It's beautiful and it fits in right here.

There's a time to crap on people for their beliefs, whatever they may be, and there's a time not to crap on people for their beliefs. This is not the goddam time to pipe up and get in someone's face about their religion.

The thread was started because she had a bad day at work. We see threads like that all the time. People just looking for a little sympathy and encouragement. That's all. Just a little company at the end of a difficult day. She wasn't trying to convert anyone or change anyone's mind about anything. There really are times when, if you don't have anything nice to say, just shut up. Times like that really exist do and this is one of them.

There are plenty of other times and places to argue about religion. Nobody can stop you from doing that here, but it might be a small act of charity if you just restrained yourself this one time and save the argument for a more appropriate time.

[quip]

61. I call bullshit!

Scientific theory points to a big bang. Now please tell me how any theory as to what happened just before that bang isn't an extraordinary belief, and how ANY predictions about that aren't based in the illogical and unreasonable.

[Pale Blue Dot]

68. Please explain why "god" is the best theory of what happened before the big bang.

Who created "god"?

And WHY, for "god's" sake, would a "god" who created the big bang (but apparently wasn't created himself), care if someone was gay or straight or a speck of dust in the corner of "his" vast universe?

How can anyone claim that their morality is based upon this "god"?

[quip]

75. It's not a theory, it is a belief. Any "theories" about events pre big bang are outside

the peruse of Science.

As for morality; it comes from somewhere. From where should it come?

[dmallind]

99. Again you miss the point

The theories are not about "before" the big bang at all - with the possible exception of quantum loop theory but even that does not address "before" as it is used in casual conversation.

[quip]

111. These "theories"

Are they half baked speculations, or is there some way to test them?

And even if you could test them and explain everything, that would mean that there is an order to the universe-- an order that is completely inexplicable.

[Adsos Letter]

76. But sammythecat has a good point Finnfan...

this is about someone being burntout on their work this evening. It isn't about religion, or belief, or who is right or wrong...critters needs a bit of human kindness here, not an attack on her metaphysical beliefs.

[dmallind]

82. Time is a function of matter in space. There was no "before". NT

jllkj

[quip]

90. What is "before?" Is that your theory? What is your evidence? And how can

you use a tool like science to draw a conclusion about something that is beyond its scope?

[dmallind]

92. Not my theory and not beyond its scope at all

Cosmologists such as Stephen Hawking suggest that the dimension of time is transformed via quantum fluctuations in the so-called "signature of the spacetime metric", into a space-like coordinate so that instead of 3-space and 1-time dimension, space-time becomes a 4-dimensional space devoid of any time-like features. Frankly I barely even understand that even in that layman's synopsis and about 10 humans on the planet understand it in any detail. Chances are you're not one either any more than I am.

The only other theory started very very recently and posits a quantum loop theory with a pre-existing universe whose collapse caused the big bang which created our own. It still means that "before" is meaningless because we have no clue what the time dimension of that universe might have looked like.

But the real problem is that our minds are built to understand linear time as a universal constant because that's the world we live in and that's the only way esxperience makes sense. That does not mean however that the universe works that way and the concept of no knowable or identifiable time dimensions pre-existing the big bang is decades old and pretty much universally (pun intended) accepted.

[quip]

97. You are making my point for me.

We are finite, and the tools of science are finite, and we are trying to use them to understand the infinite. That IS a real problem. And a doomed task from the start.

So any "theory" about the infinite is really the same as any "theory" that presupposes an infinite Creator.

[dmallind]

98. No trust me I'm not

You are assuming there is somthing infinite to try to understand. I do not. The understanding and tools of science are not complete, but that does not mean they are incapable of addressing this issue.

I am making, or rather restating very simply, absolutely no comments or thoughts about the infinite. In fact the big bang is diametrically opposite to anything infinite. It's not called a singularity for nothing.

The original question was about "before" the big bang. There is no "before" the big bang to ask about in any meaning of "before" that assumes linear time. Again that is not the infinite, or even the particularly complex by today's standards of physics. It is undergraduate level, widely understood and widely accepted.

Just because most humans can't wrap their heads around the concept of there being no passage of time does not mean God did it, and it doesn't mean it was "infinite". It just means most humans don't even have a layman's grasp of higher physics, which is all I could ever claim for myself. That's not the fault of any snidely "quoted" "theory". It's the fault of our educational systme and the superstitious claptrap foisted on most of our population.

[quip]

108. ...

You are assuming there is somthing infinite to try to understand. I do not. The understanding and tools of science are not complete, but that does not mean they are incapable of addressing this issue.

I think it does. Are you arguing that the universe is finite? Science can explain aspects of the universe, but has no means by which to test, falsify, or explain the origins of the universe.

I am making, or rather restating very simply, absolutely no comments or thoughts about the infinite. In fact the big bang is diametrically opposite to anything infinite. It's not called a singularity for nothing.

Right! So, what was going on about a nanosecond pre big bang? I mean, it was definitely an event. And how would you suppose to gather any evidence about matters that are pre big bang? It's all really just speculation.

The original question was about "before" the big bang. There is no "before" the big bang to ask about in any meaning of "before" that assumes linear time. Again that is not the infinite, or even the particularly complex by today's standards of physics. It is undergraduate level, widely understood and widely accepted.

You aren't allowed to make such an assertion in science. There always IS a before, because science would stipulate that something caused the big bang to blow (an event). According to science, things don't just happen; they have causes. What caused the big bang to bang when it did? And how can science possibly address that question? It's faith-based guesswork, without hope of falsifying.

Just because most humans can't wrap their heads around the concept of there being no passage of time does not mean God did it, and it doesn't mean it was "infinite". It just means most humans don't even have a layman's grasp of higher physics, which is all I could ever claim for myself. That's not the fault of any snidely "quoted" "theory". It's the fault of our educational systme and the superstitious claptrap foisted on most of our population.

I am arguing that the universe is infinite, and it's origin is unknowable through science. We can't know, because we have finite minds. God is infinite and unknowable through science. Both are beyond the peruse of science.

[dmallind]

109. It's not my assertion

if you want to argue with Stephen Hawking about physics go nuts but I don' think I would bet on winning, and it's his statement that there was no time dimension pre-big bang. There was no nanosecond pre-big bang because there were no nanoseconds, or picoseconds, or minutes or hours or fortnights AT ALL pre-big bang. That's whet you need to wrap your head around. I know it's not easy, but that's why we're not all physicists I guess.

[quip]

110. Yeah, I know, the language is clumsy; cause-effect is better.

What caused the BB to blow? I know that SH can come up with interesting theories and all, but proving them is something completely different. And that's assuming that there is some order to the universe that is predictable.

And here is a clincher: why SHOULD there be an order to the universe? From where did the "laws" come?

[uberllama42]

112. There are theories based on math and theoretical physics

and then there are beliefs based on the writings of pastoral nomads almost two and a half millennia before the birth of science. There is no equivalence between the advanced theoretical work of guys at Stanford and MIT and the recorded oral traditions of guys who thought the sky was a big overturned bowl with little twinkly lights stuck on the underside of it.

At base, any theory modern scientists come up with rests on their understanding of which mathematical and physical principles would transcend a world "before" time and space. They don't just make these things up; they have a good reason to accept their ideas as true. Assuming that a jealous, anthropomorphic god created the universe is not based similarly grounded in fact. There is a difference, and it really isn't that subtle. It's a pretty pronounced difference.

[Book Lover]

105. Quick point

Congress stopped funding SETI in '93. There is no "we" who invests, just private investors.

Just my nitpicky two cents!

[Ellen Forradalom]

37. A pastor is a shepherd.

A pastor's job is to serve a community, to help them through rough patches and to mark life's milestones. Perhaps that's reason enough to be clergy.

[Pale Blue Dot]

39. If someone's job is based on something beyond logic and reason,

then that person is able to use that job as a reason NOT to do the right thing, as in, "I must take homophobes' opinions into consideration."

[LeftyMom]

42. I don't think that's fair.

It sounds like she's having the sort of problems anybody running a decent-sized organization does. People have different ideas about where they want to go, they get emotionally invested in their way of doing things, they resist social change, they want other people to do the work for them. These are typical human failings and she'd still have to deal with them if she were running an organization that wasn't theistic in nature.

[Pale Blue Dot]

45. Again, let me rephrase it:

"I hate my job. The animal-rights people think I'm not publicly supportive of their issues enough, not attracting them to the church. The more conservative people are utterly terrified that I'm going to turn this into a "PETA church". And whatever happens, either way, it's completely, 100% my fault.

[LeftyMom]

53. See, you're still talking about basic human conflict.

You could plug in the right vowels and have the same arguments taking place between skeptics or atheists or humanists or ghost debunkers or star-bellied and plain-bellied sneetches.

Once you get any large group together, most people will be content to be led, but there will be a few who get really enthused about who the group ought to be run, and many of the involved people will be dogmatic assholes, and more than likely two or more of the dogmatic ones will butt heads. If you ever find a large group that doesn't have those conflicts, get a cheek swab of one of them and snap a few pics, because you've probably found intelligent non-human life.

[Pale Blue Dot]

54. My argument is, and I think that the evidence backs me up on this,

that if someone had posted what I said above, you would have had something to say about it because that issue is important to you.

Gay rights is important to me, and it pisses me off that people use dogma to support, coddle, or justify homophobia.

[LeftyMom]

63. This situation still reads more like a personality conflict than anything else.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm willing to bet that if the socially conservative sorts all woke up more accepting tomorrow morning, and the more activist people got their way about increasing outreach, in two weeks there'd be a fight just like this about the building fund or hiring somebody to run the daycare or something.

[Critters2]

69. Yeah. I have a friend, a pastoral counselor

who says churches give clergy shit in their 3rd or 4th years at a call as a kind of testing...to see if you're committed to staying there. He says some kind of shit will hit the fan around that time. I think this may be it.

Or I may just be really tired.


One of those.

[Adsos Letter]

74. Probably tired...it is one of the hardest jobs, pastoring a flock of people...

real sheep are easier...

[Adsos Letter]

59. ...sneetches...?

[LeftyMom]

66. It's Dr. Seuss.

http://www.amazon.com/Sneetches-Other-Stories-Classic-Seuss/dp/0394800893

[Adsos Letter]

73. ...ah...

see...that's why I come here...I learn stuff...

and here is a rose for you young lady:





:hi:

[Adsos Letter]

50. you nailed it LeftyMom...

Pastors of community-based churches suffer exhorbitant burnout rates...especially when you add to the mix of things you so well encapsulated, the fact that many congregants hold their pastors to a higher standard than they ever hold themselves...and can be very unforgiving and unsupportive when pastors reveal the human side they share with everyone else.

I have heard it said (among Christians) that the church is the only group which shoots its wounded...and it is all too often true.

[PassingFair]

84. Why isn't it fair?

If we were talking about a corporation that was
worried about "becoming gay", etc. everyone here
would be ALL OVER IT.

Careful Finnfan, must not even QUESTION
"sacred" things....

[BuelahWitch]

56. It didn't sound to me like religion is the problem

It's people.

[Pale Blue Dot]

58. People who are using religion to justify their homophobia.

And a pastor who is trying to appease them.

[ellisonz]

3. "no one would bother me about it."

That doesn't happen, ever.

[huskerlaw]

5. Tell the glbt people

that if they want more gay-friendly people in the church, they should bring their friends with them. After all, attracting people to the church is not your sole responsibility. They need to take a bit of initiative themselves.

And tell the conservative people that "teh gay" isn't contagious and if they opened their minds a little bit they might accidentally, you know, LEARN something.

[Critters2]

7. I say these things from time to time.

No one seems to be listening. *sigh*

[rakeeb]

8. Hate your job? There's a support group for that:

it's called "Everyone"....and we meet at the bar.
See you there.

What kind of job is it?

[Critters2]

9. Clergy.

Pour me a stiff one, please.

[rakeeb]

12. the pastor that married us makes a pretty mean margarita,

I'm thinkin' that might be a good place to start.

[Critters2]

13. Yeah, that'd be okay. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

11. I'm having a good day, thanks.

I had a relaxing walk and got a free cloth shopping bag from one of the local retailers. Little things, but they put me in a good mood.

Maybe tomorrow it will be your turn. :hi:

[Critters2]

14. I doubt it. I'll still have this job tomorrow. Unless I do something

really interesting tonight.

[Adsos Letter]

15. Sorry critters...

From what I have experienced being a pastor has to be one of the tougher jobs around. What seems like the simplest of things can become unbelievably intractable. Our congregation has actually split over music...MUSIC!!!...and I'm not talkin' the difference between hymns and Stryper here. I'm talkin' simple additions of acoustical guitar, some drums (not pounding) and songs which aren't out of the 19th century. Shoot, some people get all upset if a speaker stands in the "wrong part" of the front area...or if someone departs from the "accepted" woship style (like in raising your arms). My wife, who has been active in the musical program for years, actually got criticized for "exhibiting bodily movement" during a song...like, she was making the quite normal rhythmic movements most people make when singing...

Our church wouldn't even know how to handle GLBT issues...half the people's heads would explode at the very mention of it...

I don't envy you your challenges, which are quite real. The glamour folks on the TV and Radio, and in a lot of the mega-churches have it easy...the life of the average community pastor is no walk in the park, by any means.

When I say you will be in my prayers, I mean it...hang tough critters.

[Critters2]

20. Oh, yeah, music. That can be a bitch, too.

My church WORSHIPS its pipe organ ("It's a Schantz!"). There's a bit of the "worship war" crap going on around here, but not too much. Mostly because no matter how many praise choruses I select for worship, the musicians play them on the pipe organ, so they sound like something out of the 19th Century. We have a find concert grand that goes completely unused. A guitar would kill my musicians...hmmm...

Thanks for your prayers, adsosletter!

[MichiganVote]

16. Well I got a lay off notice today.........

[Critters2]

19. I'm sorry. I know it seems petty of me to whine, when others are

in much worse situations. I'm really sorry you're out of work.

Your situation is much worse than mine, I admit.

But others are in better settings than me. Life is like that.

I wish you only the best! :hug:

[MichiganVote]

23. Thanks, I hope your situation improves also. No fun being he scapegoat.

[Lil Missy]

17. Sorry you are having such a bad day.

:hug:

[Critters2]

21. Thank you, Lil Missy! nt

[Lil Missy]

33. I just noticed your sig. You work in Iowa? We might be neighbors.

What part of Iowa are you from, if you don't mind my asking?

[Critters2]

34. I'm in Illinois now. But when I leave here, I'll be returning to Iowa.

Soon, I hope. I'm a native of Davenport. Before this, though, I was in Wright County, near Ft. Dodge. Where are you?

[Lil Missy]

44. I'm on the other side of Iowa, near Omaha NE.

Drop me a PM if you ever get to this side of the state.

I'll take you to a gay bar in Omaha! LOL!

[Critters2]

49. I have some good friends in Omaha. Presbyterian clergy.

One in Omaha, one in another town nearby...Elkhart or Elkhorn. That's what happens when you communicate completely by e-mail and IM. I never have to actually write down an address.

We were in a continuing ed program together in Des Moines. I hope to get to Omaha sometime to visit. So, I'll take you up on that offer!

[Lil Missy]

62. A visit would be my pleasure! Do drop me a note if you come to Omaha.

And I won't insist that you meet me at the lesbian bar either. A friendly meeting for lunch or dinner would be nice too.

The town you are referring to is Elkhorn NE. It's maybe about 30 or 40 miles from Omaha.

[Critters2]

67. Wouldn't be the first lesbian bar I've been in!

I qualify as both bi and a fag hag. I've been around the block a couple of times. I'll let you know when I'm coming!

[Lil Missy]

80. Alrighty then!!

We can meet at a lesbian bar and cause some talk! I'm ornery like that anyway! :D

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

18. This too shall pass.

2 Peter 3:10-11

I've done the factory widget bit. Trust me- it gets old REAL FAST.

[Critters2]

25. And later:

3:14 Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish; 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation.


Thanks, Number 6. Very helpful. Thanks.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

28. There ya go.

And if that doesn't do it there's always the Sacramental Wine... :headbang:

[Chan790]

24. well...I nearly murdered a customer.

He came in, ordered something virtually impossible, got pissy when it didn't come out perfect, asked for his money back and when I told him he had to speak with my manager over at the espresso machine, he said "Why...is the register over there now?"

No, the register isn't over there but I'm not authorized to do anything but say "aww...I'm sorry." (even if I mean I'm sorry I can't throw 200 degree milk at you and maim you for life.)

Other than that, I'm great. I've decided to be happy. As a result:

*My manager asked me if I was losing weight.

*My coworker offered to set me up with her hot liberal 20 year old friend. I declined only for the age reason. I'm 28. There might not be laws against that, but perhaps there should be.

*I emailed two really good friends I'd completely lost contact with about 5 years ago.

*I managed to get through an entire day without whiskey, pot or any other social crutch.

*Somebody offered me a job.

*My bosses boss and I had a conversation about why I need to be promoted.

*I got an old friend/coworker rehired.

Sorry to gloat. I know your day wasn't good. Maybe tomorrow the GLBT and conservative communities of your parish will present you with a workable action plan jointly worked out for where they all would like to see your church go.

[Critters2]

27. I'm glad you had a good day. I'm envious.

Maybe things will be better tomorrow. I'm skeptical.

Thanks, though.

[ThomCat]

30. I am very sorry.

:(

I may be non-religious, but I applaude you for being inclusive. I wish you could find out what makes the lgbt members thing you're not being inclusive enough. What are they seeing that they perceive as non-inclusive? What more do they think should be done?

I'm not inclined to be worried about those more conservative people, but I understand that you have to be.

:hug:
Hang in there. Do the best you can, and know that you've done your best.

[Critters2]

32. Interestingly, the conservative people are kinder to me.

Much more understanding of the tightropes I have to walk. It's the glbt people--at least in this congregation--who are more demanding and more critical. I'm never good enough. The church's position is never made publicly enough, we're not gaining glbt members fast enough. And it must be my fault. It's not because they're glbt, just this particular group of people (actually two people-but two people with a lot of authority in the eyes of others). They'd find something to be irritated about (always) if they were straight. This just happens to be the issue.

The conservatives are ill at ease with the progressive positions, but know that both positions exist in the church (btw, conservative by UCC standards is still more liberal than a lot of conservative Christians). They're uncomfortable, but more quietly so. And they don't blame their discomfort on my personally.

It would actually be easier to serve a church where one side or the other were so obnoxious that the other side just got pissed off and left. But no, I've got to deal with people on all ends of this spectrum.

If everyone could be kind, it would help a lot.

[ThomCat]

35. I can understand where your LGBT members are coming from.

The more you are rejected and excluded everywhere else, the more you need people to stand up for you and make a point of it in the one place where you are supposed to belong.

Passive acceptance isn't enough when you're actively excluded and demonized everywhere else.

[Critters2]

36. But I'm not passive. I am public in my support.

I do advocate for them. I've taken risks for them. I can only do so much.

[Pale Blue Dot]

38. "I can only do so much."

What is it, exactly, that keeps you from doing more? Is it because "the conservative people are kinder to me", or is it something else?

[KitchenWitch]

104. I know you are an atheist, and I can see that you are having differences with mycritters2

But perhaps it would behoove you and the lounge if you would let this go.

Please pardon my butting in, but I do not see this as constructive.

[ThomCat]

40. I'm sorry. I didn't choose my words well.

:(

I didn't mean to say that you're only passively accepting them. It's more that they might be perceiving the acceptance as more passive than you are.

[Lil Missy]

55. I suspect you are doing fine with your support of the glbt community.

I am sorry to admit there are some, women especially, in my community that no matter what you do it's never going to be enough. And I don't care to get into details publicly.

I fully expect to be flamed here for saying so, but it's the truth.

:hide:

[Pale Blue Dot]

57. Those damn uppity gay people.

Always fighting for their rights. If they would just be quiet and let god work his magic, then those homophobes would surely see the light.

[Lil Missy]

77. Well, I knew I would get that kind of a reaction.

Incidentally, are you aware of the fact that I am gay too?

I wasn't just talking outta my ass or blowing smoke up your butt. I was giving a real life observation based on my own experience in the gay community.

I would like to see some changes too, with equal rights and civil rights, gay or straight. I just happen to have an up close and personal view that you don't have.

I don't believe the OP was anti-gay at all. I felt that she was just expressing frustration that the gays that she has bent over back wards to support were more difficult to please than the conservative members of her congregation.

That's a pretty sad commentary, and why I responded the way I did.

At the same time, I am gay and proudly so, and absolutely FOR equal rights for EVERYONE. I just happen to be up close and personal with the gay community. And I am sorry that you missed the point.

I do, however, appreciate your support for the gay community.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. its always easier to be gracious when you have all your rights

:loveya:

[Critters2]

64. As I say, I don't think it's so much about glbt issues

as about a couple of personalities. This happens to be the issue around which all of this manifests itself. I knew one of these women and I would clash sooner or later, because of our personalities. It was only a matter of time.

Actually, this anthropologist that I'm doing continuing ed stuff on predicts that all human groups have these conflicts. These behaviors follow his stuff as if it were scripted. What worries me is that he says these things are resolved by getting rid of the scapegoat. I'm looking for another way!!

[Lil Missy]

79. I guess that was what I was trying to say, although I might have been clumsy about it.

Gay men and women are not immune to having "issues", anymore than straight men and women. There are just some people you can't please, no matter what you do. Sexuality is not a factor.

[CC]

41. The minister is only as good

as the people in the church (no matter how good they really are). If the GLBT people want more outreach in the church they need to bring their friends and work on it themselves. Ask/tell them to come up with a plan and implement it. Assign the two complainers the job of coordinating and inform them it is their job to work with those that are more conservative to settle their uneasiness and get their help with the whole thing. You would be willing to back any good plan enthusiastically as long as they all work together.
Also sounds like a good sermon idea there. "If everyone could be kind, it would help a lot."

By the way, the widget person would never hear the end of it until the next one messed up at the factory.


I think you have one of the hardest jobs in the world. I would kill someone sooner than later if I had to deal with the pettiness and seems there is at least a few in every church.

[Kat45]

48. I'm guessing you're not a designated "open and affirming" church.

Is that correct? The reason I'm guessing that is because you do have conservative members, who I would think wouldn't go through the process and then vote for it. Then I'd guess that the glbt folks would be pissed that it's not an O&A church.

A couple of years ago, some of us in leadership positions in my church were talking about how we'd like to do that, but with a number of older folks and other uncomfortable people we first had to have a number of meetings to decide if we would even decide to start to go through the process. We finally decided to commence, but then our church's lack of finances forced us to drop the issue as we pursued ways to keep our church going. We ended up consolidating with another church, and we're still trying to make that work, so I'm sure it will be a long time before we can get back to the O&A issue.

[Critters2]

51. We are technically, but it wasn't well explained at the time (imo)

It was before me. They were told it just meant everyone was welcome. So, when I raised the issue of Marriage Equality, some nearly went into cardiac arrest. Those specifics had never been raised with them. So, yeah, if you look us up on the UCC website, we're listed as ONA.

[Kat45]

65. Ah, interesting.

I'm in Massachusetts, where gay marriage is legal, which makes the whole O&A thing that much more serious. When people know it means gay marriages in their church, they really pay attention.

[Critters2]

71. I had to deal with the whole "But it's not legal" bullshit.

"No, it's not legally sanctioned. There's no license to sign. But it's NOT illegal to do weddings for same sex couples in the church. In fact, we have a 1st Amendment right to do so." "But, but, but..."

:banghead:

So, it doesn't get better when they make it legal, huh? Damn! I was so hoping!

[JVS]

43. Tell both groups to fuck off! Your job is to preach Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins!

Anyone who wants in is in. It's not about who's gay or straight or anything else. It's about our God making himself incarnate and willingly coming and dying for us because of his love which none of us deserve.

[Critters2]

46. I don't think they'd hear anything past "fuck off".

Worth thinking about, though.

Seriously, JVS, thanks for reminding me of our priorities.

[LeftyMom]

47. Can you set up an outreach committee or something like that?

That way the people concerned about GLBT outreach can plan out some ideas to work on that issue and execute them, since they're displeased with your current efforts. Maybe it'd work, maybe it wouldn't, but at least they'll probably learn that you're not just refusing to wiggle your nose and magic up three pews of fabulous pink people for spite.

[Critters2]

52. That's basically what I told 'em. That there needs to be a committee

and they need to be on it.

God knows, if I could wiggle my nose and magic up three pews of fabulous pink people, I would! Great image! Thanks! :hi:

[Adsos Letter]

70. I know it doesn't actually help much, but...

let me share a sweet iris my wife has nurtured in our yard:




and, when yer done lookin' at the flower...


...would you please feed this cat...cause she's bein' kind of a pill:




:hug:

[Critters2]

72. Beautiful! Both of 'em! Thanks!

And congratulate your wife on that iris!

[DS1]

78. deleted. all but

[GoddessOfGuinness]

81. You're so good at what you do...

You know in your heart what's best...Don't forget to have faith in yourself. Stick to your instincts and the extremists will come around. :hug::hug::hug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

83. are you and your church publicly supportive? sorry but a lot of people spend a lot of time

trying to closet us, and we can detect that very quickly

on the other hand, i am sure you do as much as you can, even if your church does not.

:hug:

[zanne]

85. Wow. Try to ask a question around here!

I guess you hit a nerve, mycritters. I don't think you'd like working in a factory; you probably need to be challenged in your job.

[Coyote_Bandit]

87. I used to aspire

to have a responsible and meaningful job that made a difference in other people lives. No more. Now I just want work I enjoy that provides financially. There are lots of ways to help folks that are unrelated to my occupation. At my age I figure there may not be too many more opportunities to change careers and start over. I've found something I enjoy that has the potential to afford me an income and now I am working on refining my skills.

Hats off to those who those enlightened souls who work helping and serving others. I know from my brief stint working on a church staff that the work is long and the people can be very challenging. Take care of yourself, critters.

[KSinTX]

89. It's not your JOB to be supportive of issues

It's your job to be supportive of people, right? It's your mission to speak to the hate and fear within us all and get us to replace it with love. As Jesus ministered to the Pharisees and the whores, he did not promote their ISSUES. He told them of the love and inclusion of his way. Issues are political; not a church's responsibility. Just my opinion.

Have a better today, OK?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

91. GLBT issues are not just political, they are religous, ethical and moral too

had religious leaders not been so bigoted maybe we would not have so much bigotry to deal with

[KSinTX]

93. That other religious leaders were bigoted doesn't bear on this one's burden

My point is that ethics and morality may sometimes intersect with politics and religion but many schools of philosophy that deal with those studies do not. There is indeed a separation between the work of the church and the secular issue of GLBT constituency. While some churches choose to minister specifically to this community or any other, it is not mandatory for any to do so. Hence my point to the OP that churches should not be in the business of serving any one constituency unless it has promoted itself as such. Otherwise, it is to bring members from all walks of life into the fold through promotion of inclusiveness and love without catering to specific identities.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. GLBT folk should not take shit from their churches passively, they too have every right to complain

that not enough is being done by their leaders to champion equality

[KSinTX]

95. Then you're not in the right church

if it's not championing equality (without pandering to a specific constituency).

[Midlodemocrat]

96. I'm sorry you're having a hard time.

Hopefully, it will all work out. :hug:

[John Gauger]

100. Maybe you should look for a different line of work.

If you really hate your job, you should leave it. There's no point going on being unhappy. If your job is making you miserable, then it's time for a change.

That's what I did last year. I was attending college but I hated it more than I could ever express. I have never been so miserable in my life, and there was no part of it that yielded any benefit to me. I was getting nothing from it, so I dropped out.

If you truly hate your job, and you're not just saying that because you had a bad day, I mean really hate it, then only healthy thing to do is to seek a different path.

[ornotna]

101. pretty good so far

right now I'm on a construction site building a bank vault. the job is going well so far.

[ornotna]

102. doop

sorry about that. First time posting with my phone.

[KitchenWitch]

103. I am sorry you are going through this.

I have a lot of respect for you, for your ministry, and for the dilemmas you find yourself in between the various groups you minister to.

:hug:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

106. Good luck with that factory job

If you can stand in front of a congregation, then in a factory you'd be a foreman in no time.

The line workers would think you're not publicly supportive of their issues enough, not paying and promoting them, and demanding too much. The more conservative managers are utterly terrified that you're too easy, not getting enough production out of your people. And whatever happens, either way, it's completely, 100% your fault.

Churches are quieter and cleaner. And you will not be able to please everyone. But pancake breakfasts can help.
:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

107. Having grown up as a PK, I know what kind of stuff you're going through

:hug:

If it weren't GLBT issues, it would be something else.

Congregations, especially small ones, are very much like families, and the silliest things will set people off.

I agree with the suggestion to ask the malcontents to be in charge of whatever it is they want to do. Either they're secretly eager to get involved in a project OR they're just having fun griping and will quietly back down if they think you want them to DO something.