One of Sharon Tate's murderers dying.

[ronnykmarshall]

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_D_atkins22.41f98c5.html

[Jamastiene]

1. That reminds me.

I guess jail is the only option I have left now if I want health insurance. :eyes:

[ronnykmarshall]

2. I'll be glad

when I don't have to pay any tax dollars to keep Manson's sorry ass alive. I wish that fucker would bite the dust soon.

[Jamastiene]

4. I still don't get why he was trying to start a race war.

That never made any sense to me. Then again, if he made any sense to me, I would worry.

[5LeavesLeft]

11. He wasn't trying to start a race war

he just knew that it was going to happen( the Beatles told him so in "Helter Skelter"). He thought the blacks would win, and then wouldn't be able to manage things, and so would turn to him for leadership, leaving him in charge of everything. Killing the Tates and LoBiancos was just a revenge/mind control exercise for Manson.

[Jamastiene]

25. Wow, he was even more wacked than I thought.

:crazy:

[old mark]

74. He thought that bu writing "Pigs", etc....

...in the victim's blood white people would think blacks did the murders and attack them, helping to bring about the race was that would end society, allowing Manson's group to take over the remains. They planned on having several dune buggies to sweep out of their dessert hiding places and take control of the cities.
Sociopathic fantasy.
I have read a bit about Charlie over the years, and I have no idea why he is still alive on the taxpayers dime.
Sincerely hope none of them are ever released, even to die.

mark

[MnFats]

105. do a lot of acid for maybe 300 of the 365 days of the year. you'll find..

...you're quite impressionable.....the family was tripping most of the time, except for Charlie, who would take a half dose or fake taking a dose, so he'd have his own shit under control while the rest of them were tripping like mad...

[Chan790]

3. Possibly the worst thing I'll ever say here and mean...

I hope she's in a lot of pain. I don't have mercy for her either.

I have no sympathy for cold-blooded murderers.

[DaDooRonRon]

5. Which part of the compassionate progressive component are you?

Read this before you say something even more disgusting.

http://www.susanatkins.org/

You have miles to go before you even reach the threshold of being ignorant.

[lost-in-nj]

7. whoa

what horse did you ride in on????


You have no idea the compassion on this board...
when warranted
she KNEW WHAT SHE WAS DOING

they all did
I don't know why any of them are still alive

sorry

killing unborn babies is where I draw the line

not to mention
taking any human life for "FUN"


lost

[DaDooRonRon]

9. Bullshit

I can hardly wait for the "I hope she rots in hell" posts.

I've read this board long enough to know that half the people on it wouldn't know true compassion and forgiveness if it rose up and bit them in the ass.

36. Years.

Have you ever heard Atkins interviewed. Van Houten? Krenwinkle?

They are no more the people they were 39 years ago than I was 39 years ago, and I can tell you that 39 years ago you would have found me in a far far different state of mind.

How prescient of you to know that they all knew what they were doing, since Manson is regarded far and wide and one of the most cunning and manipulative cult leaders of our time.

The false piety of some people here makes me ill.

"Oh, we're Democrats, being compassionate is part of our being."

Rubbish.

[LaurenG]

10. people are entitled to their feelings

and I'm sure there is plenty of compassion to go around.


The false piety of some people here makes me ill.

"Oh, we're Democrats, being compassionate is part of our being."

Your judgment reeks of non compassion, we can't all be 100% perfectly compassionate all the time can we...

[DaDooRonRon]

17. Hardly

But one can make an effort to at least become informed instead of spewing out knee-jerk crap like I see in places here.

Wishing don't make it so, despite what some folks want to believe.

You see, I have a friend who did 20+ years in San Quentin. Got a full pardon from the Governor many years ago.

He's done more good in the years he's been out than 99% of the folks on here. You know, all the "compassionate ones."

However, his crime was a serious one, and according to some he should have stayed in prison.

Knee-jerking does two things: hurts your knees, and makes you look the fool.

[lost-in-nj]

22. KNEE JERK!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????

this has been going on for

HOW MANY YEARS????????????



no knee jerks here hon



informed opinions
contrary to your belief

we read
and stay on top of the news..



maybe you should go back and do some investigating and a little more reading



knee jerk


thats the funniest thing I have read all day


thanks


lost

[LaurenG]

28. Stop,

you are making no points with me. It's just as bad to take offense as it is to be offensive. Just chill out, feelings pass. Sometimes people say things they think they mean at the time.

If it makes you feel better to get all upset, feel free.

[ronnykmarshall]

30. I totally understand the anger.

There was a time when I could honestly say that I wished Susan Atkins would die a painful death. But that's changed for me.

What I wish is that she would have just excepted that she will spend her life in prison and stop trying to make herself out to be some great loving person. I'm sure if she could have changed her life, she would have. But her actions in 1969 are unforgivable. I'm glad she has turned herself around and has from what I've read, made a good impact on her fellow prisoners. She has a family that loves her and supports her and I hope it gives her comfort.

But Doris, Patti and Paul Tate went to their graves fighting to keep these people in prison. Debra Tate has lost her mother, father and two sisters and still has to live with that. As do the families of all the victims of Manson and his "family". My sympathy is with them. Not the killers. They need to except their fate and just shut the fuck up.

[DaDooRonRon]

33. People change

Maybe she has. Honestly, do you think it's a racket to get out of prison? When all you can do is think about what you've done it moves some folks to try and make it better, in whatever way they can.

What if she COULD make things better if she was free? What if she could take those years and make them WORTHWHILE?

I'm not saying she should be. I'm asking the question - are all of you unwilling to entertain the possibility that people change?

Don't believe it? - come up north sometime. You can meet a few friends of mine. The guy that will tell you bad puns until you beg him to stop, the other guy who'll spend 25 hours a day taking kids to baseball practice, the guy who can build you a house that you'll fall in love with - all very EVIL people at one time.

Think about it.

Try and use some of that compassion you believe you have.

P.S. Thank you ronny for a reasoned response. I don't agree of course, but I appreciate your taking the time to articulate your thoughts.

That is a rarity of here these days.

Peace.

[Redstone]

63. Thank you SO much for the lecture. We'll be sure to conform to your expectations

from now on.

Redstone

[TreasonousBastard]

81. I kinda gotcher back here, but...

methinks it's all for naught. My own beliefs are in redemption, and that redemption should be recognized-- something I always thought was as liberal as it gets. And those beliefs are only partly from a relilgious point of view.

I guess not, though, at least not around here with this crew of "progressives."

Some of your wording suggests you are not all that liberal yourself, at least according to the current unwritten rules of DU verbiage, so I suspect there have been a brazillion alerts already. I do hate seeing people I agree with on difficult topics disappear, so I wish you you well whatever happens.

[DaDooRonRon]

86. Thanks for watching behind me

Actually, I am much farther to the left than most folks here.

I just have issues with those who pretend.

This place is a giant Phil Ochs song - "Love Me I'm A Liberal."

As Phil said - "get it?"

:)

[auntAgonist]

36. well said. thanks n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

80. Yeah. I'm not about to judge whether or not any of them...

should be released, but I can't help wondering how many here calling for "justice" were all out to reprieve Karla Fay Tucker.

That Karla Fay was being executed is a strawman-- you can't have it both ways. People change or they don't. If they change, that change should be recognized in some way.

If we don't recognize change, what is the point? We have simply wasted yet another life.

[skygazer]

85. I don't think the execution aspect is a straw man

At least not for me - I don't believe in capital punishment. For anyone, whether it's Karla Faye Tucker or Charles Manson.

I would never argue that either of them should be freed but I would argue that the state has no more right to kill them than they had the right to kill their victims.

Whether or not a person has changed has no impact on my opinion of capital punishment. As for whether Susan Atkins has changed, I don't know if she has because I don't know her.

But there seem to be two separate arguments going on here - one that says people should have compassion for all and one that says people should have compassion for those who have changed. And the further the argument goes, the more focus is put on the second argument.

So if that compassion hinges on them changing, why then is it wrong to A) not believe she's changed and B) not have much compassion for her? After all, you've set the limits on compassion by inserting the requirement of change.

Telling someone they have to be compassionate doesn't make the resulting compassion very genuine anyway.

[MnFats]

106. I agree. state-sanctioned murder is still murder. nt

[TreasonousBastard]

109. You're right that...

the Karla Fay outrage was from two sides-- some were simply against executions and some were arguing for redemption.

(And some just got into the fray because Bush was involved.)

But, those two arguments meld at some point when you examine the concept of "justice." We agree entirely that the death penalty should not be used, but we may not agree on just what else should be done-- the death penalty is simply one of many possible outcomes of seeking "justice."

The deeper questions are just what should we do with criminals? Over thousands of years we have tortured, killed, and imprisoned them and when that didn't work so well we tried to reform them. When that didn't work we went back to the tried and true punishments. And all the while constantly redefining just what criminality is. Maybe some day we'll get it right.

As far compassion goes, I don't see it as conditional-- I have equal compassion for all, and requiring some test for it isn't really compassion at all. That's a parole hearing. The difference between, say, Manson and some truly reformed criminal is not my compassion, but what I would do with it. I may have compassion for Manson, but I have no interest in seeing him back out on the street-- he doesn't have to work to earn compassion, but he does have to work to earn freedom.

Compassion, to many of us, is freely available to all, but the recipient has the obligation to earn the fruits of that compassion. Compassion is not the result in itself, but a means to a result.

[Lil Missy]

117. Did Doris, Patti, or Paul Tate go to graves because of fighting to keep Susan Atkins in prison?

Or did they die of natural causes?

I am not trying to be an asshole about this, I'm just asking because I really don't know.

I am a completely different person than I was 39 years ago. But at the same time, there has NEVER been a time in my life that I could cross the line into killing, or even stabbing another person.

That's what really troubles me about the Manson "family". That element of "evil" that allowed them to follow through with such evil and heinous acts. That's pretty fucking scary to me.

[skygazer]

38. What is your point?

That people should be able to commit heinous crimes, repent and then be set free and forgiven?

Do you suppose that if Susan Atkins had not been caught, she would have done the "good works" that she has since supposedly done? I don't know the answer to that - do you?

The truth is, she was found guilty of participating - and not just participating but gleefully participating - in a series of brutal murders. Whether she has spent 39 or 139 years in jail is not the issue.

The bottom line is that she is able to die in bed, cared for by doctors - not tied up, frightened half out of her wits and stabbed repeatedly. Whether I have compassion for her or not is irrelevant. She has had to live her life with the knowledge of what she did and as far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing. But if some choose not to waste compassion on people who have shown none at all, I have no problem with that.

[lost-in-nj]

14. Are you related to her??

do you know her???
have you talked to her???
you were there that day??
you KNOW what was going through her mind???


no YOU DON"T
and I DON"T

BUT
she is a murderer
a KILLER
oh yeah

and LAUGHED about it
what part of that do you not get??



OHHH!!!!!


I guess you don't know any one that has had a violent crime committed against them....

ok

let me get my friends sister

oh...I can't

sorry she's dead
killed


because of a FUCKING CAKE


do not
preach your crap to me






so what she "found" religion....

so yeah

BULLSHIT



lost

[DaDooRonRon]

16. Yeah fine

Goodbye.

You are what you purport to hate.

Pretend compassion is all the rage these days, huh?

Don't forget to recycle and send money to Greenpeace now.

"Message: I care."

[lost-in-nj]

18. ok

run away

and you have no idea

who I am
and what I have been through....


you didn't answer the questions..

because you know I am right......



go spew at ....

well
I'm not allowed to post it here

lost

BYE :hi:

[HEyHEY]

21. So, does it make more sense to think "Oh, that's too bad. What a shame."

When you hear of such a person's death? I think no matter when the crime was committed, some things are so heinous that forgiveness is not possible. I'm not going to say I hope she's in pain or anything, but frankly, I don't feel sorry for here by any means. Changing doesn't make it right. The crime has still be committed. People are dead, they aren't coming back.

[Redstone]

65. Gee, could you be MORE transparent in letting us know that you don't belong here?

Why are you here? I'd be interested in your rationale.

Redstone

[Madrone]

73. That person belongs here as much as you do.

Last time I checked, it wasn't REDSTONE'S UNDERGROUND. Unless Skinner died and made you DU God, I don't think it's your call.

I guess you've been pretty transparent in letting me know you don't think *I* belong here either - since I believe in the point the person is trying to make, that seems so utterly lost on the rest of you.

[DaDooRonRon]

77. Thank you madrone, but he is right

I do not belong here.

A fact to which (based upon the shallow responses in this thread) I am eternally grateful.

It was my mistake to engage the faux liberal in any discussion of substance. That is not a mantle they wear well.

I left grade school and "in-crowd play groups" a long time ago.

Most adults did.

Here, however, they seem to be still alive and well.

Pity.

Thank you for your efforts on my behalf, and I'm sure I'll see you at some point down the road.

Just not here.

[TreasonousBastard]

79. Wow! One would almost think you were related to...

the victims there. So much anger toward people you don't know over people you don't know. All this passion over a story you read years ago.

So, you know exactly how bad she is and how terrible surviving friends and relatives feel without having met any of them? You know for sure that there is nothing worth saving in a woman who has been in prison for almost 40 years?

Oh, for such wisdom...

I'm not picking on you-- this is so common everywhere. Someone does something dreadful and the world jumps up and down.

Kinda like a kneejerk.

[Chan790]

19. You can check the archives...I've never said I was compassionate.

But since you want to talk about labels:

I'm an ideological leftist. I'm a socialist. I'm an eco-militant, an environmentalist, and a vegetarian. I'm an atheist, a seminary dropout, and a humanist. I'm a writer, a political theorist, and a moral philosopher. (I also happen to be a barista...but that is incidental.) I believe in empirical truth and the immutability of truth. I believe in the noble pure beauty of true justice. I know there is no such thing as redemption, not for the likes of her, because one can never be a former-murderer. There are some actions which cannot be undone, some acts which can never be forgiven, some people who can never be redeemed. One who murders the pregnant, takes glee in it, and mocks the pleas for mercy of their victim is worse than all that. She will never have my pity or sympathy.

Never is a powerful word...I have never killed another person...and that has made all the difference.

[DaDooRonRon]

31. This says it all

"I know there is no such thing as redemption, not for the likes of her, because one can never be a former-murderer. There are some actions which cannot be undone, some acts which can never be forgiven, some people who can never be redeemed. One who murders the pregnant, takes glee in it, and mocks the pleas for mercy of their victim is worse than all that. She will never have my pity or sympathy."

Your listing of your virtues prior to this rings hollow.

You know nothing of redeption. I've worked with former murderers in the worst inner-city slums of the northeast, some who murdered for nickels and dimes, some for cheap thrills, others for belt notches. They turned their lives around to help others, they lived on poverty wages so that others would at least have a chance. They became the best individuals they could become after such a horrible act, and they did it in circumstances that most people here couldn't stand for 10 minutes.

And you say they can never be forgiven. You have no clue. As an attorney, you should know of intent and the degrees of murder, yet you make the absurd statement that there can be no redemption.

I'm sure you'll find believers on this thread.

I am not one of them.

[ronnykmarshall]

20. Well I can't speak for the person you're directing to.

But yes, I have heard Atkins, Krenwinkle and Van Houten interviewed. Out of the three Leslie was probably the most believable. Atkins changed her story about the night the murders over and over again to try and get parolled. Krenwinkle was the only person to say "This (prison) is where I belong".

Don't get me stared on Tex Watson. Con artist. Just like Manson.

[DaDooRonRon]

37. So should Van Houten be freed?

Watch the line you draw here - it may be move on ya. :)

[ronnykmarshall]

41. No.

But I just think that if anyone gets out, it will be her.

[ronnykmarshall]

26. Well I know that 39 years ago I wouldn't have hacked someone to death.

[DaDooRonRon]

35. You would have if you had fallen uder the spell of Manson

Any one of a hundred kids at that compound would have. If you were a kid searching back then and came upon Manson the world would have been a much different place.

Would you have taken poison at Jonestown?

Holed up with Koresh in Waco?

It is impossible to say "I wouldn't have" - your circumstances were not theirs.

39 nine years ago I was thrown out of a professional building I was doing research in because I wasn't wearing any shoes.

Sound crazy? - not to me back then.

[Madrone]

45. I, for one, know exactly what you are saying.

And suffice it to say, I agree with you. (not just this post - your entire conversation in this thread)

Thanks.

[DaDooRonRon]

49. No, thank you

I am very glad to see you, for to see what many have become while pretending just the opposite is indeed sad.

We have a long way to go to get to a place where understanding and rational thought thrive, and I fear many of the occupants of this particular vessel don't even have a map.

Peace.

[Phillycat]

124. Yeah, I'm feeling pretty sure about that.

:wtf: We're supposed to believe this murderer is some sort of VICTIM??

[JanMichael]

48. Be careful before you start completely defending these people.

Read their websites (we have/ we do--wife is a history/religious studies person interested in cults)--

Watson, Atkins---they went to being "Born Again Christians."

Read their stuff---they are still "followers"--just of a different genre now. They aren't all that different.

No, we don't wish bad deaths on anyone, but please remember that these people essentially scared the shit out of the US at the end of the "summer of Love" period. They gave communes, hippies, etc a pretty bad name. They did a lot more to fuck up the culture of the country than just kill a bunch of people.

There are people that write to Manson NOW that want to "join the family."

Krenwinkle--seen her latest photo? The one where she is doing the "signal" to the followers outside?

Seriously, be careful about the "they changed" stuff with these people. They are still very, very dangerous, and do NOT need to be out of jail.

[DaDooRonRon]

53. No defense

Just research into how/if/when they are the same folks as they were in '69.

Something many of the "deep thinkers" here are incapable of.

Obviously Manson has not changed.

The "signal" photo is challenged on all sides, BTW - to say it is such is an opinion shared by some, not by others.

Oh, did the Symbionese Liberation Army scare the shit out of anyone?

As of today, Patty Hearst is showing dogs for a living.

How about the Black Panthers?

Weathermen? SDS?

Who goes to jail? Who stays out?

If the crimes are so heinous, why not kill them?

Or is that not "compassionate?"

[JanMichael]

55. I didn't say they don't deserve compassion, I wrote "be careful."

The "signal photo" is odd--to say the least. Have you seen it?

Have you seen Tex Watson's online book where he says that he is concerned about the "new followers?"

I wrote "be careful." I will add "pay attention."

I stand by what I wrote. I meant it. This is a dangerous crowd/ they still are.

Not one of the other groups you mentioned did anything comparable to the murders of the Manson family.

Why kill them? Where the hell did that come from? Quit making shit up.

[Midlodemocrat]

83. Jeez, dude, could you be any more dismissive?

Stop insulting people. They have the same right to an opinion that you do.

[DaDooRonRon]

96. Blacks are dumber than whites

Queers have no rights.

Women should stay the hell out of organized sports.

All opinions.

The line to be dismissive of them would run three times around the block.

Rightfully so.

Ignorant vengeance posts without a scintilla of thought behind them are opinions too.

Dumbing down has its limits.

[ronnykmarshall]

82. What's the scoop with Krenwinkle's photo?

I haven't heard about that.

[JanMichael]

88. I'll see if I can find it when I get home

it's a recent one, and she is giving a kind of sideways "Hook em horns"---it's weird, and it's on purpose--not normal hand "pose."

There are still Manson followers that are on the outside; supposedly she was showing her solidarity with them.

[ronnykmarshall]

100. I found it.

This was several years ago. BUT, still at that point she said she denounced Manson.

[JanMichael]

103. That's exactly the one I was thinking of ....recent (as in the past

few years) and AFTER she said she had nothing to do with the Family.

Weird, eh.

[Burma Jones]

89. I could care less about compassion for violent criminals

Why does that have to be a litmus test for being progressive?

I have compassion for people born in shitty circumstances, and do not injure others.

I have compassion for non-violent offenders that get longer sentences than rapists and killers.

I have compassion for people whose jobs have been shipped overseas so the top 5% in income can profit even more.

If you willfully kill another person for gain or for kicks or to impress someone else, you've lost my compassion....

This wishy washy touchy feeley weep for the killers shit is the biggest reason Liberal is a Bad Word.

[Midlodemocrat]

91. You know. This is an excellent post.

Pretty much sums up how I feel as well. I don't wish pain on anyone, but I really don't have a ton of compassion for her. I am glad the death penalty wasn't carried out, because I don't believe in it under any circumstances, but she really should remain in jail.

Even if she did find Jesus. And, I don't think the comparison between Karla Fay Tucker and Atkins is valid. Tucker was executed by the state.

[lost-in-nj]

104. Thank you

this is EXACTLY how I feel....

you put it so

elequently......

:hi:


lost

[sammythecat]

108. I haven't checked out that website and, to be honest,

it's likely that I won't get around to it. Time is a problem. I can't make any judgments about these people at this point other than acknowledge the crimes they committed.

So, having said that, I do agree with the spirit of what you're saying. I think just as it's possible for good people to become bad, it's also possible for bad people to become good. 39 years is a long enough time to warrant consideration of those facts.

An example of this would be Sen. Robert Byrd. I never knew much at all about him till he made what I thought was a heroic speech against invading Iraq. Afterwards I learned he was pretty heavily involved in the Ku Klux Klan. Not just a member, but some sort of "Exalted Cyclops" or some bizarre thing like that. He was, at the very least, indirectly guilty of murder for promoting and participating in a murderous organization, and for quite a long time, many years. He now says he's sorry for that and his words and actions lead me to think he probably deserves forgiveness. Maybe he does or maybe he doesn't. I don't know his heart, but it "seems" he has changed. It seems that it would serve no purpose to now punish him for the many crimes he surely committed or abetted (and got away with) when he was a powerful leader in that despicable organization. If he can be forgiven by so many without ever being punished at all, shouldn't someone else who has been punished for 39 years at least be given the consideration that they have changed as well? Just the consideration is all I'm talking about.

I'm not saying anyone in the Manson murders is worthy of forgiveness, just that it IS possible for someone to become worthy of forgiveness. Not even the most self-righteous blowhard on this board knows the heart of any of these people. I think the only appropriate response to whether any of these people are deserving of mercy is "I don't know. I don't know enough facts to make a judgment about any of these people, and that's probably why no one with the authority to make a decision is seeking my ignorant opinion".

Here's my unsolicited opinion: If their heart has changed, then take that into consideration when deciding how, or if, to alter the terms of their punishment. If their heart has not changed, then continue with the current punishment.

I think for some, righteous indignation is a tonic. They just love it.

[LanternWaste]

120. I think you fail to see the difference

I think you fail to see the difference between a immediate, knee-jerk, visceral and emotional reaction to a most heinous action as contrasted against actual, contemplated and conscious sentencing.



Your false, manufactured and 'righteous' indignation is much more damning to you than your misinterpretation of the piety of others...

[ronnykmarshall]

15. Oh please.

"Look bitch, I don't care if you're going to have a baby. You're going to die and you better get ready".

Pardon me while I don't have much sympathy for "Sadie".

I hope she doesn't suffer, but I won't shed a tear when she dies.

[5LeavesLeft]

32. Other than the fact

that she cut out Sharon Tate's unborn baby, wrote grafitti in blood on the walls, swore her allegiance to Manson years after she was locked up, she's probably a swell gal. I don't wish any particular suffering for her, but I can't muster any sympathy for her. I hope she changed her life, and I will let God sort that out.

Her testimony wasn't against Manson, she was a believer. From cielodrive.com:

In December, Susan went before a Los Angeles Grand Jury and told all. In the beginning, she was going to be the prosecution's star witness, hoping to avoid the death penalty. But before the trial started, Susan took back everything she told the Grand Jury and renewed her loyalty to Manson. After a nine-month trial, Susan was convicted of seven counts of first degree murder and one count conspiracy to commit murder. In March of 1971, she and her co-defendants were sentenced to death.

[ronnykmarshall]

42. She did not cut out Sharon's baby.

That's not true.

She also did not write on the walls of the Tate house. Just "Pig" on the front door. Not that it wasn't as horrible.

[JanMichael]

50. What? omg....don't make crap up

the murders were bad enough.

Christ, you don't even need to research original documents---just "google."

[fudge stripe cookays]

62. She said she WANTED to. She didn't.

That is why the cops didn't originally believe Ronnie Howard when she attempted to tell them what she knew. She said Susan wanted to cut the baby out; the guard told the cops she had. She got it wrong.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. Dude. DO NOT dis Chan790 on this board.

We have VERY long memories. Amazingly long, actually.

[Madrone]

72. Sigh.

Well you can make another notation about me in your spreadsheet too, Midlo - because I concur with the point the person was trying to make.

Believe it or not - I'm not intimidated by the "posse." Or threats of long memories.

[Midlodemocrat]

75. You concurred without being insulting. Big difference. Hugh in fact.

[datasuspect]

78. threats of long memories, intimidation by "in group swarmers"

only highlight a very real lack of efficacy and powerlessness in one's personal life.

to resort to such petty and arrogant internet chest thumping is ultimately silliness and absurdity.

i've been posting here since 2004, lurking for a while before that and i had several run ins with the "proprietary DU experience crowd."

and for those with "long memories," you can go "long memory" yourself in the wazoo.

but some of us "other" DUers have long memories too.

i used to call these jagoffs on their shit a lot, but gave up, because ultimately their lives must be punishment enough.

[DaDooRonRon]

87. Beautifully said

Thanks.

[sammythecat]

98. Is this a threat?

Do we have gangs on DU now? Are there people here that I shouldn't disagree with unless I'm prepared to deal with others that have a "my friends, right or wrong" allegiance to one another?
Who is "we"? Could you identify the others so I know who should be given extra consideration?

Maybe I'm mistaken, and I mean that, but what you said sounds very much like a threat. Like watch who you agree or disagree with because "we're" watching, and if you "dis" one, you "dis" all. Is this a threat to conform to standards other than what is stated in the DU rules? Fit in with us or we'll make you want to leave? Is that what you're saying? If I go after the people you are disagreeing with on this thread would that be a good first step for me to take? I've been here for more than 6 years now and I'd like to continue. I don't want to be blackballed because I unknowingly stepped on the wrong toes.

If I knew who the "we" were I could do a search and review their opinions on key matters. That way I'd know where the boundaries are. At least I'd be aware when I was, or wasn't, crossing a boundary. It seems a couple people have crossed, or come close to crossing, one of those boundaries in this thread. I'm glad I'm late to the discussion or I might have crossed the boundary without realizing it, without having the chance to decide if I was really up for the retaliation. Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not, but I don't like to be blindsided. What are the unwritten rules here?

[Madrone]

99. Just as long as you're aware -

The boundaries change and move - and are largely dependent upon the "who" factor. In other words - statements and/or opinions are acceptable OR NOT depending on a factor of WHO they're directed toward and/or WHO they're said by.

[sammythecat]

110. I see. It all sounds very complex and tedious.

I wish I never saw this thread. I come here for encouragement, not discouragement, and these threads where people try to out-ugly one another with their righteous anger to be tiresome and discouraging.

If such other boundaries do exist, I'd like to know just where so I could maybe stomp my feet while crossing. The house boundaries are enough and all that's needed. And all that need respecting as well.

[Midlodemocrat]

118. Nothing to do with disagreement.

Not in the least. It has to do with trollish behavior. New people who feel free to completely insult people who have been here for years.

You know how that works. People sign up who have a completely different agenda than the Democratic Party and post insults over and over again until they get banned.

I give this one about another week. People get a 'comfort' factor here on DU. It's obvious by the responses to the the troll on this thread.

[datasuspect]

122. copout

you like to call people "trolls" way too much.

why is that what you consider trollish behavior often coincides with opinions posted by people who are outside your internet forum sphere of influence/mutual admiration?

[datasuspect]

123. yeah, it's a veiled threat

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emilyg]

115. Where was the compassion for her and her unborn child.?

[Mad_Dem_X]

76. I must say

I agree with you 100%. I have zero sympathy for people who commit gruesome crimes such as this.

[underseasurveyor]

102. While I respect your feeling.. may I ask you to consider this

If Susan Atkins held no mercy for Sharon Tate and her unborn child and you hold no mercy for Susan Atkins... then how are you different from each other? (aside from the obvious of course)

You don't wish to become that same thing which you claim to hate now do ya?

Just some food for thought.

[Chan790]

111. A fair question...

one I'm wrestling with. I'd argue that my lack of mercy is just (because it is a response to Atkins actions), whereas Atkins lack of mercy is unjust (What did Sharon Tate do to deserve her painful death?)...however that rings false. Sophistic, even.

Reality is that it's an emotional response. It's not reasonable or rational to want her to suffer; it's schadenfreude. I can't help but feel that she's getting off light...her co-conspirators and co-perpetrators may likely outlive her by 15-20 years easily. As an atheist, I believe this is the totality of existence; there is no further reward, atonement or punishment...when she dies, her punishment ends. This, if anything, increases the value of this life to the absolute highest end...how other people feel about God is how I feel about life and the ten commandments become the one commandment: You shall not kill. Murder as the ultimate form of theft.

Irrational as it is, I'm feeling outrage that she's dying of cancer. It's the same outrage I feel for Ken Lay dropping dead of a heart attack before he could pay for his crimes. It's even the basis of my opposition to the death penalty...but that doesn't make it a rational emotional response.

[underseasurveyor]

116. I wrestled with it for a long time myself

before it really sunk in.. and even though i understand the ideal of it all i still fall short at times..

I guess (if anything) what i would wish for Susan is to be shown that same mercy that she failed to extend to another human being.. if she is truly any kind of a changed, conscientious person, and i believe she probably is, a simple act of mercy extended to her, in it self, will be a very hard thing for her to bear and sharper than any serpents tooth.
Sometimes our best lessons are not born of obvious physical suffering.

Progress not perfection..

[emilyg]

114. I'm with you.

[auntAgonist]

6. I didn't see where

it said she's dying. Stable condition is all I read. She took part in horrific acts and belongs in jail for the rest of her life.

aA

[bicentennial_baby]

8. Same here...My Dad's been in the hospital for a few months, and

he's not "dying". x(

[Pierre.Suave]

12. For you babe...

:hug:

[ronnykmarshall]

24. There are other reports that Susan has brain cancer

and is not expect to recover. But then again these were from Manson related website, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Critters2]

71. That's what Wikipedia says, too.

FWIW.

[XemaSab]

13. Aren't they out looking for more bodies at the Barker Ranch this week?

:shrug:

The extent of the "family's" crimes may never be known....

[ronnykmarshall]

23. They are.

Lord knows how many more people they murdered.

[lost-in-nj]

27. but its ok

because it was 39 years ago

and they aren't the same people they were....


:sarcasm: :sarcasm:



:cry: :cry:


:hug:



lost

[ronnykmarshall]

29. I know, right?

39 years ago I wanted to beat the shit out of Bozo when he pissed me off on his TV show.

But we all change, right?

[KitchenWitch]

34. Big difference between intent and actually acting on it.

You had intent without action

Atkins had intent AND action

May the God of her understanding forgive her, because I, as a frail human, do not have such capacity.

[ronnykmarshall]

43. I agree.

I posted something that didn't make it due to a glitch ....

I'll try and summarize.

While I still think that Susan should stay in prison, I've done a HUGE turn around about my feelings about her. I've seen photos of her over the years and I don't see the blank, evil that I saw in photos from the trial.

That being said, I'm glad that she found some purpose in life in prison. She, from what I've read has educated herself and helped other prisoners to get their shit together. Does that equate to her being released? Hell no!

I hope she has found peace. She seems to have a family that loves her. That must be a great comfort for her.

BUT, I can't help but think about the Tate family and the family of all the victims. They can't talk to their loved ones. Doris Tate followed by her daughter Patti (after Doris' death) fought to keep these people in prison. Debra Tate is the only one left (Paul Tate died as well). Debra has to live without her sisters and her parents. The families of the victims are the ones I feel for.

[sammythecat]

97. I don't have the slightest idea whether any of these people have changed or not.

I don't have the information to make that judgment. 39 years is a long time. In that time almost everybody changes somewhat. Some get a little better, some a little worse. Some get a lot better and some get a lot worse. What's going on with these people? I don't have any real idea and I don't think anyone else here does either. All we can do from here is make guesses.

Do you believe it's not possible for bad people to become good, or good people to become bad?

I believe it is possible for people to change. I believe it's unlikely to the point that it is rare, but, rare as it is, people are capable of making fundamental changes in their lives.

[fudge stripe cookays]

47. I hope they finally....

find Shorty Shea. They've been trying to figure out what happened to him for almost 40 years.

[bicentennial_baby]

51. According to Court Tv:

"Shea "disappeared" in late August 1969, but his corpse went undiscovered until 1979, when another Family member, Steve "Clem" Grogan, seeking parole for the murder of Shea, agreed to tell authorities where the body was. Shea's remains were found and Grogan was paroled in 1986. To date, Grogan is the only Manson Family member convicted of murder to have been paroled."

http://www.courttv.com/archive/verdicts/brucedavis_092498.html

[fudge stripe cookays]

60. Oh wow. I hadn't heard that.

Thanks!

:hi:

[swag]

39. Sexy Sadie, what have you done?

[ronnykmarshall]

40. You've made a fool out of everyone!

[JanMichael]

44. mixed feelings about this.

Wife is a history major, who remembers this as a child.

[tammywammy]

46. Hold on, let me check....

Um, yeah I have no sympathy for her.

[JanMichael]

52. If anyone is interested in reading more about the "family,"

go to the websites of the members that have folks on the outside who maintain them. Many of them are "born again."

It's a fascinating read--Tex Watson, and Atkins are really interesting. They both are Christians now--and the way they write about "Jesus" and "God" is the EXACT same way they talked about Manson during the trial.

They are true followers.

Reading the stuff about these people is a good education on the "cult" mentality. It's very frightening.

[skygazer]

54. You know, that's an excellent point

That whole transferrence of allegiance from Manson to god - I guess that's what gives me the "yeah, so what" feeling about her supposed turnaround. Some people are just too damn pliable for their own good.

[johnnie]

56. It's sad all the way around

I feel bad for her that she took the path she did back then, I feel sad for the victims of the "family" and I feel sad for her that she is suffering now.

[davsand]

59. The phrase "broken people" keeps coming to mind.

Sometimes people do shit that is just SO messed up I can't get my mind around it. The Manson Family murders really do fall into that category for me. I keep wondering if the people who did those crimes were messed up and then gravitated to Manson because they were messed up or were they otherwise normal and then messed up by Manson?

It is a chicken or the egg question, really.


People still mourn and there is jack shit that any of us can do about it today or even could have done back then. Rational people that we are, we just can't conceive of what they did. It is too far off our radar to understand.

They are broken souls. They are badly damaged and it is doubtful that any of them can ever overcome the burden of knowledge of what they have done--let alone atone in any way for it. Seems to me that would be a living hell with no exit.

They are just broken souls and I Do feel sorry for all that are impacted by this and by the choices they made so long ago. May they one day find the strength to confront what they did and may they find grace in some way.

Peace.


Laura

[liberaltrucker]

57. The only tragedy is that she didn't inhale cyanide gas in 1972

As well as Charlie, Tex, and the rest of the "family".

No compassion for multiple murderers here. True, I had
far different attitudes at 19 than I do now at 54.
But NEVER at 19 did I consider murder.

Die painfully, bitch. Like your victims.

:grr:

[Redstone]

66. What you said. I'm 54 as well, and remember being 19. And when I was 19,

I'd not have killed a bunch of people who weren't trying to kill me.

Redstone

[Redstone]

61. Gee, what a shame. Don't remind me to not shed a tear, because I won't need

a reminder to not do so.

Redstone

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

67. One can be compassionate and still believe in justice

I take no pleasure in the thought of Susan Atkins dying, just as I take no guilt in profoundly hoping that her death occurs in prison, where she should remain for the crimes she took part in.

[FloridaJudy]

68. I'm not glad she's dying

But I'm glad she'll never, ever leave that jail. The rest of us are a whole lot safer with her there. Some crimes are so horrendous that the perpetrators need to be put away permanently.

Whether she's truly repentant is between her and her god, and not my place to judge.

[spoony]

125. A perfect response, I think.

[edbermac]

69. There are some sites that show the Tate/LaBianca crime scene photos.

And they are pretty nasty. So I can't feel much sympathy for Atkins, if she's dying or spending the rest of her life in jail. I lay most of the blame on Manson, who played the ultimate mind-fuck on these kids, but they do have to share culpability for their actions.

[ronnykmarshall]

84. In the book Helter Skelter the crime photos ..

have the bodies whitened out.

It was only years later that I saw the actual color photos. They were worse than I imagined they would be.

Can you imagine what Mrs. Chapman (Sharon's housekeeper) went through when she came to work that morning and found that carnage?

I have always felt for sorry for that lady.

[MonkeyFunk]

70. Sad

too many wasted lives all around.

[Westegg]

90. Debra Tate said it well...

"I don't have any animosity for these people. I have gotten over that years ago," Debra Tate, 55, the sister of Sharon Tate and last living member of the Tate family, said Monday.

"I do think it is appropriate that they all will pass away while they are incarcerated," said Tate, who lives in Southern California. "I don't trust that they are less sociopathic than when they committed the murders 40 years ago."

Of Atkins' illness, Tate said, "I really do feel badly for her family."

---Personally, I think Susan Atkins was a troubled kid who fell under the sway of a madman, Manson, and so she ultimately reaped what she sowed. I do have some sympathy for her dying in prison, but she killed people and was duly tried and convicted. Of all the "Manson girls," I always thought Atkins was much more involved in the crimes and murders than some of the others--- Krenwinkle, for instance.

I think it's pretty definitive that if you carve up a bunch of people in 1969 Los Angeles and are later caught and sentenced for your crimes, you're going to die in prison. They were all supposed to go to the gas chamber decades ago.

Manson was the man who made it all happen. But they all have blood on their hands.

[Midlodemocrat]

92. When I see that victims of a violent crime have essentially

forgiven, or gotten past their animosity, it is such a good thing. It can't be healthy to carry that level of hatred around for so many years.

[Westegg]

93. Yes, because it perpetuates the crime itself...

...Mind you, I've never been through what the Tate family has been through. I can't say how I'd react to something that terrible. I don't know that I'd be capable of Debra Tate's grace and dignity. I have only compassion and sympathy for that Tates, and for all other families who've endured this kind of horror.

[Midlodemocrat]

94. I feel the same way. And, I have never been through anything that

unspeakably horrible, either.

I remember when Timothy McVeigh was executed, there was one dad who said he had forgiven him because every year reliving both the event and the execution would be too much to bear and far too much for him to live with.

Wise words.

[ronnykmarshall]

101. Doris Tate was a wonderful woman.

She fought to keep the killers in prison. Yet she also met with other prisoners to try and help them with their lives.

When she died Patti took over her work.

Patti looked SO much like Sharon.

[Danger Mouse]

95. Good riddance.

[Taverner]

107. Wow. Glad she's in jail

I hope she doesn't die, but I hope she never makes parole

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

112. No pleasure in other's pain. These ones, I just wish they go away as soon as possible.

Without pain, in order not to feed the vicarious sadism of the mob. Quickly, because they're a waste of perfectly usable organic materials. And without the State's participation, because it is not anybody's business to kill, let alone the Law.

[Lil Missy]

113. I have mixed emotions.

I was a teenager when this happened, and I am certainly not the same person I was 39 years ago. I did a lot of dumb and stupid things back then.

I was a pretty fucked up kid, used and abused sexually, physically and emotionally. I got into shoplifting and when I got busted at age 15 or 16, I never did it again.

Since then, I've had a life and hardships that you wouldn't even believe, but it has NEVER, EVER, occurred to me to kill someone. Maybe I was just lucky and had a mind of my own, where they didn't.

That's where I have a problem with the Manson followers. It really takes a stretch of conscience, and perhaps some evil within, to be able to stab and kill another person, or to even punch a hole in them with a knife. I just can't fathom crossing that line.

I think the death penalty is warranted in the most egregious cases. But I don't support the death penalty because I feel it is unjustly skewed toward African Americans.

[noonwitch]

119. Sad for everyone involved

I would imagine that those involved in the killings would eventually feel remorseful. They were little more than kids and they were caught up in insanity. Not that they should get out of prison ever, but I'm not a death penalty advocate, either.

[BarenakedLady]

121. Where does it say she is dying?

:shrug: