Really good friend from HS has become a libertarian wingnut

[OmahaBlueDog]

I know.. people do change in 25 years. He and Mrs. OBD and I were all close in HS. We've drifted apart. I came across an internet journal he wrote, and he's going on about how we've become a nanny state (I posted a thread on that in GD: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3326974 )

The thing is, he's an accomplished (if not well known) science fiction writer, fan convention producer, and produces (from what I'm told) really good internet radio theater. He and hiw wife are youth pastors.He's not (as far as I know) a gun guy or a militia/klan type. I gather he did become a big Ayn Rand fan.

It saddens me

:rant:

Thanks for letting me vent.

[Jade Fox]

1. People like your friend.....

seem to feel easily controlled ("people just seem to want to take freedom away" Based on what?). I assume it is because these people are not really clear about what they want and who they are, and find themselves doing/believing things they later regret. I think they are pretty frightened people. And possibly pretty easy marks.

Libertarians in particular seem to view freedom as never having to interact or work with others on any level.

Seriously, how would the "nanny state", if it existed, take away freedom? By giving you stuff?? Oh, right--those scary, all-powerful nannies are "prone to telling you what to do and where to go". That's the fantasy of someone who doesn't know how to assert or protect himself, and still feels like a little kid under the thumb of adults.

[OmahaBlueDog]

2. I don't understand what upper middle class white people have to be angry about

If you think about it, aside from flying commercial and staying in property you own instead of a time share or hotel, what is the difference between a family of 4 in America with a 6 figure income and -- oh I don't know -- Warren Buffett. You eat well, you vacation well, you have great medical care, you live in a relatively safe society. I say show some gratitude for your outragous good fortune not to live in Darfur, shut up, and pay your damn taxes. Stop taking your tax problem out on the rest of us.

[DFW]

11. I quite agree

And, aside from not being entirely in America, I'm one of those with a family of
four with a six figure income, flying commercial, living in property we own (rent
for 3 weeks in New England in the summer) who eats well, vacations well, has (usually)
great medical care and lives in a relatively safe society.

And you had better BELIEVE that we are grateful for our outrageous good fortune, and that
we pay our damn taxes.

[OmahaBlueDog]

21. Ane we appreciate your hard work and your lovely tax money

:-)

[DFW]

32. Don't spend it all in one place!

I gotta eat, too, ya know!

(Plus with 2 girls in college, the gravy has been gone for years now).

[NewJeffCT]

12. Let's see

It's banning smoking in public places...
It's labeling food for it's nutritional content...
It's taking junk food out of schools...
It's taking prayer out of public schools...
It's raising the drinking age from 18 to 21...
It's trying to impose stricter gun laws...


and, of course,
It's having black kids bussed into white suburban schools...

Please note - I don't agree with them, but I can tell you a lot of what they believe.

[OmahaBlueDog]

20. Funny - I was bussed into a black urban school and my friend wasn't

My taste in music was broadened; otherwise I can't think of many ill effects.

[NewJeffCT]

27. Well, it probably had few ill effects on the children

but, some parents didn't want their kids mixing with non-white children... and others resented the government stepping in and forcing it upon them.

Other "nanny state" things:
- seat belt laws
- motorcycle helmet laws
- labeling records and video games (I know a lot of people who voted against Gore in 2000 because his wife Tipper spearheaded this in the 80s with the PMRC)
- taking private property for public use (Kelo vs New London, which was a Republican proposal, but is thought of as a liberal idea)
- environmental laws that stop development because a spotted owl lives there

[Iris]

24. This is so well-said. I'm going to save it for future reference.

if you don't mind!

[Mojambo]

3. What is it about sci-fi that tends to produce libertarianism?

I know several science fiction obsessed people and every single one of them is also a hardcore libertarian.

[DarkTirade]

4. I think it's the other way around, I think that particular kind of libertarian mindset

is one that often leads that person to be into sci-fi. :)

It's one particular personality type that springs from being a bit anti-social, and growing up usually in gifted classes and the like, knowing that you're capable of moving MUCH faster than you're being allowed to. Eventually people in that situation end up reaching a point where they just want to be left to their own devices, because being forced to go to school and follow someone else's lesson plan is just slowing them down.

It's a personality type a little too close to my own for comfort, actually. I'm not sure why I didn't fall into that trap, but I know a lot of people who were very much like me that have.

Anyhow, the sci-fi can double as both escapism, and a kind of mental exercise almost. They have to be able to keep up with the fictional technologies and governments and basically they're learning about a whole new world in addition to the one they're living in. If they can't slog through this one quicker, they'll try to occupy their minds by following another one or two or seventeen different worlds.

Also there's the attraction of that whole cyberpunk/rebel against the system thing. Which, ironically, is usually the same system they end up espousing as libertarians. Maybe that's why I never fell into that trap, maybe I just saw the dichotomy there. I realized that being self-centered and greedy hurt everyone in the long run. That, and I never got into Ayn Rand. :P

[OmahaBlueDog]

5. Great point!

<<It's one particular personality type that springs from being a bit anti-social, and growing up usually in gifted classes and the like, knowing that you're capable of moving MUCH faster than you're being allowed to. Eventually people in that situation end up reaching a point where they just want to be left to their own devices, because being forced to go to school and follow someone else's lesson plan is just slowing them down.>>

Yep -- that's part of it. And, like you, I'm surprised I never fell into that. However, (and I hate to admit this), once I discovered booze and girls, I lost interest in RP gaming (another pass time of that personality type). Save for Kurt Vonnegut, I was never all that interested in Sci-Fi. Actually, I wasn't all that interested in fiction until I hit college.

[DarkTirade]

8. Maybe that was it for me too.

I was the only one of my geek friends that dated in high school. :P

Although I know at least one of them is a staunch democrat... but he's a little less the ivory tower type and much more of a nice guy than the people who fit into that stereotype that I mentioned. :)

[Mojambo]

6. It's interesting. I fit the same profile

Trust me, NOBODY wants to be left alone more than me, but I never took that intellectually shallow and selfish leap that most libertarians take.

I guess some people are just able to see that you can disengage from a lot, but not your responsibility to fellow humankind.

I like a lot of science fiction, but I just can't STAND cyberpunk. Never could.

[DarkTirade]

9. I think there's maybe just a very subtle on/off switch for people of that type

as to whether they give up on people or not. Despite my inherrant misanthropy, I still have a tendancy to at least give people a chance. And I think I recognized that just because my brain is working on a different level than most people's, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a 'higher' level. Just different. Yes, my brain works faster than most people's. I'm able to figure some things out quicker and better than an average person can. My IQ score is higher. But that doesn't make me a better person. It just means that my brain works a bit differently than theirs does. What makes me a good person is not how smart I am, but rather how good a person I am. And that seems like such a simple idea to me, but some people just miss it, I guess.

Oddly enough, I'm reminded of a quote from a sci-fi author right now. :P Something along the lines of 'intelligence is a tool used to achieve goals. But goals are not always chosen intelligently."

[hobbit709]

13. I love sci-fi

Have since a kid, read thousands of books-some good, some bad, some so-so-but I'm far from libertarian. I lean a lot closer to out and out anarchism combined with socialism.

[DarkTirade]

31. Like I said that's just one personality type that tends to be sci-fi fans.

There are plenty of others that are drawn to sci-fi too. :)

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

15. Orson Scott Card comes to mind

Although he may be more of a republican.

[DarkTirade]

19. He's just a religious whacko, unfortunately.

Great author, but a wee bit nutty.

[mitchum]

23. Since their standard for "literature" is science fiction junk...

it becomes very easy for them to be gulled into believing that a tin-eared scribbler like Ayn Rand is a great artist and profound thinker

[Iris]

25. ouch!

but dead on!

[DarkTirade]

30. Hmm. Good point.

I know a few people who relate to my kind of mindset almost exactly who have read her stuff and thought the stories were interesting... but thought the philosophy behind it was rather stupid. :)

I haven't actually read her stuff. I know the general idea behind some of it, and it just doesn't really appeal to me.

[mitchum]

34. You are wise to avoid her work; life is much too short

She doesn't even rise to the level of hack, since hackdom requires a certain level of facile ability. Her prose style is clunky and turgid. Truth be told, there are anumber of SF writers whose writing demonstrates a mastery of their craft. Rand never had that. She would have never even made it as an advertising copywriter.

[ismnotwasm]

7. That is sad

Those kind of Libertarians are kinda mean. Real quick to judge people and situations, seem to need to stand out in a crowd politically and intellectually.

I notice their intellectual and political ideals usually set these impossible standards they themselves can't met. They end up in a self perpetuating hypocrisy. So they end up talking more shit about "other" people

How's that for a little pop psychology?

(I saw the Sci-fi comments, I'm a huge Sci-fi fan, but more of a Socialist type. I read Ayn Rand just to say I did- Self Inflicted Reading Torture)

[clyrc]

10. A guy I dated in HS is a big libertarian now.

I'm actually not surprised. He was always very smart but very odd.

[khashka]

14. I'm a libertarian

I want the gov to stay the fuck out of my life. I believe it serves a purpose -we need to keep order, help others, and maintain infrastructure, but otherwise leave me alone.

Your friend's prob is Ayn Rand, Objectevism is a philosophy of being as greedy and selfish as you can. Then again she was a meth addict and paranoid.

We libertarians aren't all whackjobs.

Khash.

[DarkTirade]

16. Oh, I'm all for the 'stay the hell out of my life' thing,

I just think the right-leaning libertarian 'and stay completely out of my capitalism' bit doesn't work in the long run. :)

If it wasn't for that bit, I'd probably be libertarian too.

[khashka]

18. Yeah but we run the full range

For example I believe in a mixed economy. Some things work better under capitalism, some under socialism. Hell, it works in Europe and Canada!

There are a lot of left libertarians. We just don't get mentioned much. We're not all worshipping capitalism and Ayn Rand.

Khash.

[OmahaBlueDog]

22. I think most here support personal liberty without government interference

I think many on the other side would, for example, love to have company health plans that exclude (or charge more) for smokers, those outside the green BMI range, etc.

[khashka]

28. I'm a libertarian and registered Republican

But I almost always vote Dem. Government where it is needed. not where it's not, and stay out of my personal life. Dems fit that closer.

Khash.

[OmahaBlueDog]

29. Wow. We are a diverse family of beliefs here.

[hellbound-liberal]

17. I found an interesting quiz on the Libertarian Party's web site

I wanted to find out whther or not I was a Libertarian as it is defined by the "official" party of Libertarians. I fouind out that I am, indeed, a liberal. I agree with the Libertarians on most social issues but not the economic ones. Here's the quiz:
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

[Iris]

26. Interesting - almost as many Libertarians as Centrists

[Ellen Forradalom]

33. Ayn Rand! I knew it! I knew it!

Even before clicking on the thread! :rofl:

[KamaAina]

35. We used to call 'em "Randroids"

quite a few of 'em at Yale in the mid-'80s. :eyes:

[DarkTirade]

36. Selfish yuppies?