Cesar Millan: Dog Whisperer

[Pryderi]

Soooo...I've been watching this show on National Geographic channel, and I find out that his methods are very controversial. Does anyone watch this show? Does anyone disagree with his "pack leader" theory of training?

[mcctatas]

1. Welll...

his methods worked wonders on my kids! :P

[Fleshdancer]

2. I'm not familiar with his show or the "pack leader" theory

can you give an example or a brief description?

[Pryderi]

6. Pack leader theory and "controversy"

It's based on the fact that dogs used to be pack animals before they were domesticated. The pack theory holds that every pack must have a leader that dominates and keeps all the dogs in check.


http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/ccp51/cc/dog-behaviour/packleader.shtml

Establishing yourself as the pack leader helps enforce ranking hierarchy and ensure your pack operates in harmony. Despite popular opinion, this does not mean bullying your dog. Being the pack leader means taking responsibility for pack decisions, protecting the pack and ensuring stressful situations are avoided or resolved. There are a number of very positive actions you can take to establish yourself as the pack leader. It is important to start these as early as you can, ideally when your dog is still a puppy. It may not be necessary to take all the measures outlined below, but you must be consistant in those that you impose. :

In games of strength (eg. Tug-o-war) ensure you win more than you lose. This sends a signal that you are the stronger member of the pack.
When you play possession and chase games, use a set of toys that you can remove from your dog at the end of the game. Your dog can associate possession of priviledged items with higher ranking. Taking the toys from your dog at the end of the game sends a clear signal that they do not own the items.
During play sessions, teach your dog to release toys at your request. Thus reinforcing the earlier point that you are the owner of the toy and can request it back at anytime.
Stop playing and remove the toy immediately if your dog touches your hand with its teeth or begins to growl aggressively or get over excited.
Dominant dogs always have the best sleeping places, usually higher up than the rest of the pack. Reinforce your status and don't let your dog sleep on your bed or furniture.
Doorways represent entering new territory. Don't allow your dog to walk through doors ahead of you.
Make areas of your house no go areas. Allowing your dog into these areas should be a privilege for good behaviour and not a right.
Your dog should know that you own all territory. If your dog is lying in the way, ask them nicely to move, don't walk around them.
Higher ranking pack members eat first, so ensure your dog eats after you and DO NOT feed them tip bits while you are eating. Not only does discourage your dog from scrounging, it also reinforces the fact they only eat after you.
Don't always respond to your dogs requests for attention. The pack leader will initiate most grooming and petting interactions. On occassions, be aloof to requests for attention by your dog, don't tell them off, just ignore and don't speak to them.
Never allow your dog to take up superior positions, such as putting his paws on your shoulders. Walk off and ignore this behaviour if it occurs.
Always be consistent over time in your approach to any of the above. Dogs will notice and may exploit changes that it considers weaknesses.
Always be consistent in all locations, be they in the house or outside, at home or away from home.
Finally, and most importantly, every member of your family most stick to the agreed measures to ensure your dog understands that everyone in the family is more important than he is.
There will be cases when your dog challenges your authority. Remember, there is no need to physically punish your dog to suppress these challenges. Your body language, facial expressions are extremely powerful tools

[LeftyMom]

3. I like what he has to say about being quietly confident, and the effect that has on a dog.

My son tends to get excited around large dogs, so we've been working on that and even with a kid that has a really positive effect.

I do think the way the show is edited to make it look like he has an instantaneous miraculous effect gives people unrealistic expectations.

[LisaL]

4. What is controversial about his methods?

I like the show.

[AirmensMom]

5. My dogs think

I'm their pack leader. I don't get what the problem is. :shrug:

He doesn't hit the dogs, doesn't yell at them, and his own well-behaved dogs don't cower around him. Nothing controversial there.

[Pryderi]

7. Humans are neither dogs nor wolves

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

FLAWED FROM ITS FOUNDATION

All explanations and answers given on the show center around the idea that the dog is a pack animal and needs a pack leader and that without that pack leader, the dog becomes dominant, creating behavior problems. The only solution is for the owner to become a calm-assertive pack leader, creating a dog that is calm-submissive.

However, domestic dogs are social animals, not pack animals, and their behaviors and emotions are not limited to dominance and submission. To understand why 'pack theory' is a flawed model when looking at dog behavior, it is important to understand dominance theories as applied to both wolves and dogs, as early theorists used the wolf model to explain dog behavior.

Dominance Theory: Wolves

Dominance was once touted as the cause and solution for behavior problems in dogs. This belief originated with studies of captive wolf packs in the 1940's and was popularized by the Monks of New Skete in 1978. This belief led to fear that these animals could physically harm us unless we "established our dominance." Methods such as alpha rolls and leash corrections were often recommended as a way for the dog owner to "establish dominance" over their dogs.

[AirmensMom]

18. "However, domestic dogs are social animals, not pack animals ..."

Perhaps, but there is a definite pecking order with my dogs. The biggest, oldest one is the boss of the rest. But he knows I'm his boss.

We trained our Golden Retriever using some of the methods of the Monks of New Skete. We had a happy, well-behaved dog as a result. He walked well on a leash, came when called, and you could leave a meal on a coffee table and he wouldn't touch it. Oh yeah, and he gave lots of kisses and wagged his tail and played a lot. We never hit him or yelled at him.

[Tighelander]

10. You Never Know

When the cameras are off he might beat the living daylights out of them.

Really though, I am put off by all of these "whisperers". I know it started with the Horse Whisperer, but now it seems like there's one for everything. It's annoying, and I don't watch much TV.

[AirmensMom]

14. I doubt it.

I've seen dogs that have been beaten ... and actually have a rescue that was obviously mistreated.

Yeah, I agree about the "whisperers" but I think Cesar's at least a good trainer. My sister's friend had him come help with her dog (can't remember what the problem was) and she was very happy with him. He is wicked expensive, though.

[Pryderi]

16. Cesar says that he's a "Dog Psychologist", not a trainer. That may be

the reason for the differences and the "controversy" may be a misunderstanding between the 2.

[AirmensMom]

19. Whatever ...

we may be getting a little hung up on the terminology. He also prefers to think that he's training the humans, not the dogs. I think both the humans and the dogs learn to interact with each other during the training, or whatever you want to call it.

[LisaL]

23. I need a cat whisperer.

[AirmensMom]

25. LOL!

Don't we all! :rofl:

[LisaL]

36. Yep wouldn't it be great?

My cat's got issues.

[JimGinPA]

8. The Dog Whisperer Is Great! I Bought A Treadmill For My Dogs After Watching His Show

They love the excercise. I haven't seen anything "very controversial" in his methods. Excercise, discipline & affection, what's wrong with that?

[flvegan]

9. His methods are pretty solid. His delivery is a little shocking to watch.

The "pack leader" role he takes and suggests others take isn't theory. It's proven.

[Critters2]

12. It's what barkbusters did with the beagle.

And it worked better than literally years of yanking her with a choke collar. Of course, part of the problem was that I refused to yank the collar, which only pissed off the instructor. Now we go to class to do rally stuff, at which she improved considerably after a day with Barkbusters. Their methods seem to be the same as Cesar Millan's.

PS The beagle and I ran into the Barkbusters guy in the park one day, and she was MUY happy to see him! Doesn't seem to have felt abused at all!

[Madrone]

13. flvegan - What do you perceive as "shocking" about his delivery?

I'm just curious. I've heard people comment about this before and I just can't see it myself - so I'm interested in another perspective, especially from one such as yourself that knows and loves dogs.

My general idea thus far has been that in today's world people view discipline PERIOD as shocking, as is evidenced by many children and their lack of parenting, any more. I think that discipline has taken on the same meaning as something violent (ie: hitting) in the minds of many people today.

[flvegan]

21. I think when folks see him do a couple things

like the forceful dominance "roll" of a dog onto his her back is shocking to some people. It can look a little violent, even though it's exactly what another dog would do as pack leader. *I* don't perceive it as shocking, but I can see someone that doesn't understand it thinking that it's rough or shocking.

He REALLY impressed me a few weeks ago. He was walking with a families pitsomethingorother, and from across the street came a stray/loose somewhat aggressive (unneutered) male pit. He went right to work and with a couple "pfffts" and a dominant stance, and that dog took off. Very impressive.

[Pryderi]

15. I agree with you. I don't see anything wrong with his methods, but it looks like

there are alternatives.

The Anti-Cesar Millan

It's late afternoon at Point Isabel, prime time at the Bay Area's popular off-leash dog park, and the man some call the most innovative in the field of dog training weaves unnoticed through the two- and four-legged throngs. No one recognizes the slight, snow-haired man dressed in Berkeley-esque traveler's clothes (well-pocketed shirt and cargo pants) as Dr. Ian Dunbar, the man who wrote the book -- rather, six books -- on pet dog training and the guy who developed one of the earliest puppy-training courses in the country. Dunbar is 59, and though he's been away from his native England for decades (since 1971), he carries the air of an English gentleman. Occasionally British colloquialisms slip into conversation. "I was gob-smacked!" is how he explains his recent shock over a case of dog-owner ignorance.

With an eager border collie obsessively dropping a ball at his feet, Dunbar scans the Point Isabel regulars. It's hard to imagine he's not passing judgment on particular behaviors, but mostly he smiles at the four-legged passers-by. Thirty-five years of studying dogs has not dulled him to simple joys.

"Bay Area dogs are so cool, so friendly and polite," he says. When a brown fluff ball approaches jauntily and sniffs his pant leg, he genuinely gushes. "What a cute puppy!" Then an incessant barker demands attention. "We've heard," he says firmly to the lab. "Haven't you got anything else to say?"

Though they probably don't know it, Dunbar's training methodology has probably influenced the pet-owner relationship of almost everyone here at the park. He says he was the first to preach the once revolutionary idea of training puppies off leash (formerly only those six months and older were thought trainable) and also says he was the first to stuff food into a Kong (the conical shaped rubber chew toy and object of desire of most chewing-age puppies), thus saving table legs and Italian loafers worldwide. More important, his methods and theories have saved dogs' lives. Dog training is his passion, but it's not simply because he finds a well-trained pet a thing of beauty.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL

[flvegan]

24. It's two different styles for two different scenarios.

Millan deals mostly with dogs that are already broken. You're hard-pressed to teach an aggressive dog to not be aggressive strictly via reward therapy. When housetraining or working with puppies, training the basics like heel, sit, etc, reward training will work, but you need to use a certain amount of dominance in teaching the lesson. If you're not the pack leader, the dog won't let you tug the leash, etc.

All respect for Dunbar aside, ANYone that thinks that the "pack" and alpha dog aren't absolutes, doesn't have more than one dog.

[swishyfeet]

11. I don't understand the fuss either..

Big dogs are so much tougher than us wimps, and sweet talk just doesn't work if you've got a big strong-willed dog.
The pack thing makes much more sense than treating your dog like it's your baby.

[busybl]

17. I dislike his method

the dogs seem afraid of him and this poking a dog when it does something you don't like is a good way to get bit.
The other day he lunged at a dog across a porch to poke it. Poor dog probably had no idea why it was being poked. Watch the dogs for a while, not him.

[Critters2]

20. I guess I haven't seen this. Maybe Barkbusters isn't the same method.

I was never told to lunge or poke the beagle.

[LisaL]

22. I've watched the show. I don't recall him poking the dogs.

[ThePowerofWill]

26. Not a poke really, it's more of a simulated bite.

If you watch you can see him do it now and again. It does not hurt the animal, and simulated bite is most likely a bit strong more along the lines of simulated mouthing.

[lukasahero]

27. I sort of agree

I know that Milan is god around here but I don't think his methods work for all situations and I don't like the poking and kicking. I saw an episode where the dog looked afraid of him and he was calling it a great success. I felt bad for the dog.

I like a quote from the Monks of New Skeet "What is necessary is that we continuously pay attention to our dog, and adjust our training as necessary". Cesar doesn't seem too interested in modifying his method. It's great for aggressive dogs, but not all dogs are aggressive, so why use the same technique?

edited for typo

[busybl]

28. one that I saw

he was on a lawn trying to "break" the dog of confronting bikers. A few of his little pokes etc. The dog looked scared to death of him. Dogs live in the moment. By the time he lunged across the porch that time, poor dog had no clue why he was being poked. If he thinks that's a simulated bite, then he's in the wrong area of the dog. Canines don't dominate each other biting/poking in the side. They do the neck thing.

[InvisibleTouch]

29. He seems to work mostly with potentially aggressive/dominant dogs...

...and for those breeds, his methods are highly successful. I was very impressed by once scene where he was taking a walk with his whole pack of pit bulls, pit-crosses, rottweilers, etc., and all were walking along with him happily, off-lead, and entirely peaceful with each other.

I don't think his methods are necessarily right for all breeds, or all temperaments.

[Runcible Spoon]

32. well, to be fair, watching him train normal dogs wouldn't be as good TV I guess

I think his methods for aggressive dogs are excellent. It's helpful to remember that a lot of these dogs would end up being put down if their behavior was not modified. I don't think he would approach meek, sensitive dogs in the same way.

[RandomThoughts]

30. I see this same thing with some humans

There are some people that just have to be alphas. Not everyone is like that, but some always like some pecking order in their groups.

two stories,

There is this guy, I accidentally challenged his self alpha status, he gets all upset, but here is the funny thing, he does not yell at me, he yells to the crowd around me. He is trying to make a show to others. I even tested this theory, when I say hello with nobody around, he just walks away. He also does other things, like says things to others. I find it funny, almost too funny, about once every month or so, I say hello to him with a smile, then chuckle as he spins off in a tirade about this or that.

It is quite funny, but we all got quirks, and I mean no harm to him, but he is playing out desire for alpha. But I know it is a quirk of mine to figure it out, so hey everyone got issues.

I also started hanging around this group years ago, and you could see there societal rules were a pecking order. Again, I pretty much laughed at most of it, but I actually had to show macho machismos, just to get a few of them to mellow out. Really silly grade school like stuff.

So I think some dogs are motivated by a need for alpha status, just like some people. Thats why cats are better. :)

The last thing in the world I want is alpha status, what a pain that fake self importance would cause, but at the same time, someone squares up and tries to get me to treat them as an alpha? Ain't happening, they are equal to everyone else in the room as far as I am concerned.

Social order demanded, and based on some machismo factor is just such a waste, someone got a good idea, they are top of the order while they express it, then step back and give top order to person offering other thoughts on it. Hierarchy of mutual respect, I think is so much better then someone needing to feel self important. I think it is an insecurity issue.

[mopinko]

31. take a lesson in human nature from the "controversy"

there is always someone who will argue with you, no matter how sound your stand.
i think the guy is right on. everything that i have ever tried on my dogs has worked like a charm. that noise he makes- that little cchhh, that there is just plain magic. my 4 dogs, and my grand-puppies all understood it the first time i did it.

although the term "whisperer" is a little over-used these day, i do think that some people can really talk to animals. and hear them.

[Runcible Spoon]

33. Remember that a LOT of those dogs would end up dead if he didn't intervene

A lot of states will force owners to put down dogs that bite repeatedly or exhibit other aggressive behavior. If someone decides to sue and push the issue, your dog can be put down for one bite.

Milan doesn't cause pain to the dogs. A little bit of embarrassment and dominant body language gestures are just as effective. Just as abusing a dog can make him aggressive and dangerous, so can letting a dominant dog walk all over you.

[Rhiannon12866]

34. I think he's terrific, can solve any problem with any dog...

I've long wanted him to move in for about a week... *sigh* :-(

[astonamous]

35. We did an episode with him...

I'm still not a very good pack leader, but the dogs listen to me better than they did before. I have even stopped a couple of dog fights with just my voice.

I have three pit bulls in my home and we just have to stay alert to their emotions and keep them exercised and entertained. I've learned more from other pit bull rescuers than I did from Cesar Millan.