Why do people allow their cats to free range?

[MajorChode]

The Humane Society of the United States estimates that the average lifespan of a free-roaming cat is about three years, compared to 12–18 years for the average indoor-only cat.
http://files.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/Safe_Cats_brochure_general.pdf

[rurallib]

1. We had one we could not keep in.

[WolverineDG]

61. I have one that cannot stay inside 24/7

I used to make her stay inside & I swear she almost went insane. She does come in when I call her & I don't let her stay outside at night. She's pretty good about "checking in" every once in a while when she's outside by banging on the screen door. :eyes:

I have another who thinks he wants to go outside & it's a battle every time I open the door to keep him inside.

dg

[BikeWriter]

156. No, you have one you will not keep in!

[amitten]

160. I won't keep mine in, either.

All the cats I've owned lived between 10-12 years, happily, inside/outside. One got hit by a car at age 7 and died instantly. But he had the best life ever, if not the longest. He would rather have died than be denied his outside-time. He was a true wild-blooded tomcat in every sense of the word, and I'm proud I let him live a real life instead of a pretend-created-by-humans one. (He was the type of cat that if he was human, he'd probably be roaming the country on a Harley, indulging in frequent one-night stands and drunken fist-fights.) He was a free spirit, as are most all animals. I would never have dreamed of fencing him in, and he lived the life HE wanted--not the life I wanted.

I might get hit by a car tomorrow myself. But I'll be damned if I'd rather be locked up just to avoid it! :)

I also think that kindness toward animals is sometimes cruelty. Injecting them constantly with vaccines and various other drugs, giving them "treats" made out of crap, feeding them only dry "vet-approved" flavorless kibble, dressing them in stupid little outfits. Yeah, they might be immune to everything under the sun, 100% free of fleas and nice and warm and safe, but they're not really LIVING.

Just let 'em live, fer God's sake. They're animals. And they want to be free--even more than you and I do.

[BikeWriter]

164. I want to be free of annoying roaming cats on my property, too.

[Voice for Peace]

168. Someone urged me to post this here

[LeftyMom]

2. My neighbor's cat was run over and killed last weekend.

She's a sweet cat and I'll miss her a lot. I wish my neighbor had kept her inside.

[EFerrari]

52. My 8 year old son's cat was killed right in front of his eyes.

And it was my fault for letting her out.

Never again. I have six cats inside and they are fine and they will never get hit by a car because of my stupidity.

[LeftyMom]

54. Oh that poor guy.

I'm sorry. Luckily one of our other neighbors found the cat and cleaned her up so they could have a nice burial for her, and so my neighbor didn't have to see everything.

[BikeWriter]

157. Thank you!

[Arugula Latte]

84. Our best friends' 9-mo.-old kitten was killed last week.

He strayed onto a busy street.

They are heartbroken. He was the cutest, friendliest, sweetest kitty ever.

[tangent90]

137. Some people lock their children in closets. They don't get run over.

:grr:

[LeftyMom]

149. Stupidest. Argument. Ever.

[BikeWriter]

152. Yes'm, and that happens countless times each year!

[quakerboy]

3. same reason people hang bird feeders. I assume

[Shell Beau]

10. Please explain. Because that makes no damn sense.

[quakerboy]

16. To attract other animals? Cant think of another reason

It has always seemed like a bad idea, introducing any animal that does not belong in the ecosystem. House cats belong in the house ecosystem.

[Shell Beau]

20. I am sorry if I was snarky. I have a friend

who let her dogs run around her front yard. She was watching them. A cat from down the street came over and got killed by the dogs. The owner of the cat called the cops. I thought "are you kidding me". My friend, who was new the the neighborhood, heard it from all of the neighbors. Her dogs were vicious according the neighbors because they killed the cat. Now the cat, that I am guessing, killed its fair share of birds, mice, etc. was the angel. My friend was in shambles over this. She felt terrible. She has a cat, Mini.

I just get aggravated.

[quakerboy]

24. No worries

I took a chance on underexplaining my thought.

[no name no slogan]

67. About ten years ago, my next-door neighbor's dog killed my cat

The dog got off the lead in their back yard, came over to my yard and killed my cat, right outside my back porch, in my back yard. We rushed the cat to the emergency vet, but she couldn't be saved, as her spine had been severed. At least she died fairly quickly and didn't suffer too much. The dog had only been outside for a couple of minutes, unattended.

Animals outside need to be watched and controlled at all times.

[Shell Beau]

92. Absolutely!

It is in the best interest for all!

That sucks about your cat!

[XemaSab]

100. If someone's cat comes in my yard

and my dogs viciously maul said cat, I don't see how that's my problem. :shrug:

[DeepBlueC]

4. why don't WE just live indoors?

Probably safer. Pedestrian deaths, traffic accidents, smog, CRIMINALS, etc etc. Just not worth the risk. Stores deliver. Who needs sun, sky, breeze, stimulation? Little catnip toy should do the trick.

BTW that 3-4 years is for feral cats, uncertain food supply, no medical care, minimal shelter, communicable diseases, not for Fluffy who goes out into the yard. And one wonders how they come by their statistics. I know of many indoor/outdoor cats who have lived 15-20 years.

:shrug:

[Shell Beau]

7. But tell me how it is fair as a pet owner.

My dog comes into your yard and kills your cat. Well it shouldn't have been roaming free. Your cat comes into my yard and kills somthing of mine. Oh well, it is a cat.

The leash laws apply to both. At least where I live.

[DeepBlueC]

17. that is a matter of civil jurisdiction

Not fair that your kid burglarizes my house or knocks up my daughter, yet we still let both of them out of the house. They answer for any of their misdeeds. Dogs who kill small animals are a bit of a concern because they may also be a risk to small children. Not all dogs behave like this and it is indicative of an animal that is not well domesticated and is exhibiting pack behavior which is a threat to society at large.

The liberty of cats to roam is a practice that comes to us from English common law where roaming cats were recognized by the king for their help in controlling the rodents that spread disease and contaminate food supplies. Ironically, it is because they kill that they were given license to roam.

If it is the law it is the law. But don't confuse that with fairness. The laws and practices constraining domesticated animals are often less than fair to the animals. Their denial of consent is in evidence every day.

[Shell Beau]

21. So it is a cat's instinct to kill other animals but not a dog's?

Really?

And if my dogs kills a squirrel, he is likely to attack a child? REally?

And if your cat happens upon my yard (where my dog is territorial because that is their instinct) don't come crying to me. That is on YOU!

[DeepBlueC]

45. it's not the instinct that makes a difference

it's the capacity to do harm to humans in urban and suburban communities; in rural communities you can add to that the threat to livestock. Dogs do behave differently in packs. The behavior of a domestic animal may change if he is roaming with another dog or dogs apart from his pack which includes humans. Cats are predators but their behavior and their behavior in that respect in more or less predictable. Dogs who are unsocialized or inadequately socialized are less predictable. We can't tell the difference between a dog who will chase and attack squirrels and one who will chase and possibly attack a frightened child who runs. It all has to do with the potential for harm. It is not that that dog WILL do harm but that IF he does it can be considerable and it is not easy to tell at a glance the difference between a harmless dog and one that might unexpectedly exhibit unacceptable predatory behavior.

I'm not a great fan of leash laws that compel dogs to be restrained even when they are under good human control , but again, we don't know whether the dog IS under good human control until he isn't. On the other hand you know that no cat is under good human control but you also know that you are not likely to be prey for a cat. It's all a matter of assessment of relative risk. I assess and accept some level of risk. Not to do so would be unbearably constraining. I am happy to see pooches trotting along without a leash. I am mindful of their behavior but I do willingly accept that risk for myself. Unleashed cats do not trouble me in the least. They might be a nuisance but generally not a danger.

[MajorChode]

48. Cats simply create other problems apart from dogs

If the issue were simply a matter of danger to humans, one could argue that a chihuahua is no threat but other larger breeds are.

The discussion I'm trying to have is what is the benefit vs the hindrance? Is it truly a benefit to the cat, and if so why? And if it actually is a benefit, does that benefit outweigh the risk to the animal and the problems it creates to the environment and to other people.

[DeepBlueC]

64. Humans are a bigger danger than either one

They ought to be GROUNDED. PERIOD.

Yes, it is a benefit to the cat. My cats have always known the comforts of indoors and still craved the stimulation of the outdoors, the scents on the breezes, the adventure. Think of the alternative FOR YOURSELF and answer. Yes it outweighs the risks, both to the cat and to anyone else. Although there are some people who if damaged or inconvenienced in any way by anyone or anything else want A LAW to stop that. My answer will always tilt to the side of freedom and choice for humans and any other living creatures and any efforts to restrain that freedom for my own safety or the animal's safety will be made with great reluctance.

As far as I am concerned most dogs could walk about and play and go shopping or dining right in the premises with their human companions without a leash. Only some dogs can be trusted not to chase after something moving that rolls into the street and their humans usually know who they are and take appropriate steps to protect them.That is a matter of education for humans and dogs (humans first). But dogs ranging ON THEIR OWN are a matter for concern because dogs are pack animals and their behavior is governed by the expectations and obligations of the pack. Domestic dogs accept humans as part of their pack. But dogs ranging (and I am not talking about my neighbor's dog straying into my yard...he is welcome)and that word RANGING is key especially with another dog or dogs are separated from their own pack, may have formed another at least temporarily with the other dog or dogs and without human input dogs can revert to default wolf-like behavior, stalking and predation. This is what is known about animal behavior. Documentary recently on PBS by Martin Clune (not sure 100% about that last name). Also books by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas What Do Dogs Want and The Intelligence of Dogs.

What we used to do was to let dogs wander if we chose and come down only on those whose behavior was troublesome. The pendulum of risk assessment has swung to diminish risk dramatically at the expense of the dog's freedom of movement. Everything is all about protecting us from risk and some people will never be satisfied until ALL risk is eliminated, especially if we can offload any constraints entailed to some other species, or just some other humans, as long as it's not us.
I didn't make the laws that treat chihuahuas the same as larger species but the tendency of the law to generalize leads to those inherent incongruities. But the voiced concern to begin with WAS the safety of humans,and there is at least SOME solid science behind it, although the integrity of lawns etc was no doubt at least as pressing to people as the concerns they admitted to. And the argument of "fairness" extends that already porous logic if we extend its more absurd conclusions to cats.

Individual people have varying tolerances for risk and that will govern the choices they make on behalf of their pets. For many people that means keeping their kitties indoors and that decision is theirs to make and fine by me. I don't think everyone should be compelled to make the same decision. I think humans owe the rest of the living world the duty to put up with inconvenience.

[MajorChode]

76. You're ignoring the role that pets play with "the rest of the living world"

Your argument is nobody can do anything about cats until we fix all the other problems with the world that humans create. That is simply obfuscation at best, however to expand on that thought, at least some of the problems humans project on to the environment are related to their pets.

It's important to remember that dogs and cats are non-native species. Allowing non-native species to adversely affect native species is simply not responsible pet ownership. Your argument is that humans owe the "rest of the living world" a duty, but apparently that duty you mention doesn't extend beyond dogs and cats.

You also assume that duty requires pets to roam free in order to live full and happy lives but they will never live a "full" life anyway. The vast majority of pets exist to provide companionship to their owners. That is their lot in life. As a pet owner, if you are truly concerned about pets not being "free", you should give more thought to having a pet in the first place. There's nothing "free" about keeping a pet. If you want to compare them to human existence, consider that most pets are not allowed to freely procreate and that's undoubtedly the biggest freedom humans have. If you want to compare them to humans, consider what it would be like to have your testicles, ovaries, or uterus removed prior to adolescence.

[DeepBlueC]

104. we need to "do something" about cats?

I can't give freedom; I don't even have it myself. What I like to preserve is choice. I'll take the risk that comes with it too.

[DeepBlueC]

111. we are not native species either

Be tolerant of the immigrants.

[Voice for Peace]

169. it's a benefit because it's the longing of all creatures to be free

[WolverineDG]

62. People have no idea just how overrun with rodents they'd be

if you kept cats from roaming. OTOH, there is a dog (a doberman/rotweiler I think--huge dog) in my neighborhood who is known to only go after possums. Everyone makes sure to feed her because we want her around to get those critters. In an interesting twist, she is deathly afraid of cats.

dg

[MajorChode]

68. Only in very limited circumstances

There are all sorts of predators that feed on rodents. Hawks, falcons, snakes, coyotes, etc. There's some value that feral cats have in heavy urbanized areas where natural predators are not as common, but everywhere else all that's happening is the local predator population is being suppressed. The value of non-feral cats on local rodent populations is pretty much nil.

Allowing domesticated animals to prey on native species is almost always a bad idea, including the example you gave of your local dog. There are few instances when possums are pestilent and even in those instances they can be deterred by other means with little effort.

[pinstikfartherin]

91. My mom's Sheltie Taffy (RIP) used to kill mice.

The thing was, she liked to drop the damn things in our swimming pool afterward! She was fine with other dogs, cats, etc. She just liked to chase her mice.

[LisaL]

11. Why don't those lazy cats just get a job?

You can not be seriously comparing cats to humans.
:eyes:

[MajorChode]

34. One wonders where you get your statistics

The article says nothing about feral cats specifically, although that may be a subset of whatever study the assertion is derived from. I would expect feral cats to have a longer lifespan than a free-roaming house cat because it is acclimated to its environment. So even if feral cats were included, I would expect the net resulting lifespan to increase, not decrease.

As far as where they get their statistics, they are the Humane Society of the US, which is the largest animal advocacy group in the country. One would assume they know a thing or two about what they specifically published an article regarding. Their web site says the statistics come from a veterinarian study they commissioned.

Simply saying you "know of many indoor/outdoor cats who have lived 15-20 years" is meaningless. I know of many indoor/outdoor cats that didn't live more than 3 and I can't think of any that lived much past that. So unless you have something more than anecdotal accounts which disputes the HSUS study, it's pretty safe to assume their numbers are more accurate than yours.

[DeepBlueC]

69. I got that from, my vet who in turn got in from veterinary college.

That would be the University of Guelph well-known for its veterinary school and for its continuing research.Feral cats are subject to many diseases readily communicable in a breeding feral community. FLV is a particular problem, FIV is out there too and both of them are rapidly transmitted by animals competing for food and mates because biting is the vector of transmission. Cats are also subject to a number of life-threatening (especially in outdoor environment) viral respiratory infections which house-cats are vaccinated against as well as FIV and FLV and FIP. You are simply wrong. Please consult any cat rescue organization for confirmation. Many of these groups support feral populations with supplementary food, vaccination. They also spay and neuter to control populations before releasing them back into their home ground but vaccinations are the biggest gift these people give to feral cats.

I don't know of ANY indoor-outdoor cats who didn't make it past 3 but perhaps we have just been lucky for 40 or so years of cat stewardship. I have heard that statistic as well but I have always questioned it. I think that study merits study. Specifically I'd like to know details about the population sampled, the size of the sample, the methodology, and the duration of the study. You know what they say about statistics I assume? I don't know if you any real knowledge of the study details either. Your inference that feral populations probably live longer than indoor/outdoor cats is one that you need to question and I doubt that that or any HSUS study will confirm that hunch.

[MajorChode]

85. So you want to question my source but you can't even come up with one of your own?

Other than to say, "that's what my vet said and he went to a pretty good vet school"?

I do know what they say about statistics, but I have less faith in anecdotal evidence and that's really all you have to offer.

Here's a few "statistics" for you:
FIV and FeLV affect less than 2-4% of the feral cat population-lower than in domestic pet cats.
http://www.feralfelines.net/fs_MedicalIssues.htm

The three major feline viral diseases are Feline Leukemia (FeLV), Feline Immunodeficiency Virus (FIV), and Feline Infectious Peritonitis (FIP), all of which appear to exist more in domestic cats than in feral cat populations.
http://www.feralcat.com/hcffc.html

Feral cats in this study had similar or lower prevalence rates of infections than those published for pet cats in the United States.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15363760

Always remember:
Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[DeepBlueC]

97. I'm curious

what's the vector of infection for domestic cats? As far as I know they get it from other cats. And domestic cats are vaccinated against these viruses, among owners who provide regular vet care, so where does it come from? The studies on feral cats are produced by advocacy groups whose mission is preserve feral cats and provide medical and nutritional support. I'm all for that. But only one of them is a study (NIH) and it is of 533 cats, a select population and the purpose of that kind of study is to guide local policy. What is true of one population in Florida may not be true of another in Louisiana so generalizations from that study are specific to that geographical area. You'd need a lot more of them to draw an epidemiological profile. This is kind of the way they study local populations of raccoons for instance to track the path of certain communicable infections like rabies

The first link you provide contains not study conclusions but assertions that are unsupported by any references. The evidence for house cats is more completely documented because many more house-cats get to see a vet than do feral cats but I didn't see any references study-wise sufficient to compare the populations side by side.. Both of these feral cat advocacy groups are trying to make an argument that feral cats are no more dangerous than domestic cats so local authorities will be amenable to supporting the groups that care for these populations. What they are fighting against are the perception that feral cats are dangerous to domestic cats and that feral cats lead such miserable lives that they are better off exterminated.

I have yet to see any STUDY that proves to me that indoor/outdoor cats live 3 to 4 years so I will stick with abundant anecdotal evidence and experience. The trick in that assertion is the word "average". Every kitten who succumbs for any reason disproportionately brings down the average survival of their mother. As in human populations the very young and the very old are most vulnerable and kittens who get sick and are not treated in good time and subsequently die bring down momma's average so drastically that it may appear that she died before she was born if you take the average of that particular family. Does it matter then that the momma was an indoor/outdoor cat? I think what is more likely to make a difference is whether the momma had been vaccinated. Failure to do so will expose kittens to viruses that won't have much effect on the mother but will kill little ones without much in the way of immunity...that is acquired to a great extent, as it is in humans, over time after birth.

I don't think you are wrong because you disagree. I have said from the beginning that my vet has handed me statistics which I question. I'm curious about the facts behind her assertions...and yours. Studies of the kind that are real evidence are hard to run and extremely expensive and one might argue just how comprehensive our knowledge needs to be when the funds for research might be diverted to active care more productively. The advocacy groups are looking to provide care not reasons to fear and destroy cats. If they are naturally so well equipped one wonders why they need it? :rhetorical question:

[northernlights]

139. your expectation about feral cats is wrong

They're lives are *very* short. They are prey for fischer cats, coyotes, coydogs, stray dogs, owls, hawks, and eagles. They aren't protected against feline leukemia or other feline diseases, not to mention rabies. They suffer from chronic malnutrition, especially in winter in the far northern areas. And they are at least as likely to get hit by cars as pet cats. Any barn owner can tell you a well-fed cat is a better mouser than a cat forced to hunt to eat.

Those HSUS statistics are most certainly referring to feral cats, not pet indoor/outdoor cats.

[EFerrari]

53. Presumably because some of us have the common sense

to get out of the way of oncoming vehicles. But, I wouldn't swear by that.

[DeepBlueC]

70. so do some animals

[EFerrari]

101. Hence the term "roadkill".

I don't want to be an @sshole but, leaving cats outside is just an accident waiting to happen. If you live where there is traffic, it's a car accident. If you live in a rural area, there are predators. I had to lose two of them before I figured it out. Maybe other people are smarter than I was.

[Lost in CT]

55. Yeah that number seemed off to me as well.

It depends on the yard and your neighbors whether you should let your pet (or your children for that matter) outside.

[woo me with science]

57. Thank you.

Even dogs get walked, presumably. I don't see how people consider it humane to ask a cat to live its life in four walls without ever seeing the outdoors.

[DeepBlueC]

71. yeah

:applause:

[Voice for Peace]

172. yeah too

[Shell Beau]

94. I think that is another issue all together. It is one of the

reasons I will not own a cat.

[AirmensMom]

121. Pssst ...

No one "owns" a cat. They own you or not, but they are never owned. :D

:hi:

[Shell Beau]

124. Haha! True!

How quickly I have forgotten. It has been a very long time since I have had a cat! :) :hi:

[AirmensMom]

125. You mean ...

it's been a long time since a cat has had you! :rofl: :hi:

Your baby is adorable, by the way! :loveya:

[Mugu]

138. I currently have a 15YO barn cat.

[Voice for Peace]

173. That looks like the cat that comes around here day and night wanting my cats to come out and play.

[Maine-ah]

185. my hubbie had a barn cat that lived until she was 18

continued to catch the barn swallows and mice, even though she had no teeth left. :hi:

[amitten]

162. Most indoor-only cats I've met are half nuts.

They're also stinky and have strange dispositions.

People that won't let an animal outside are being selfish IMHO. They would rather preserve the poor thing in an unhappy, unnatural state than risk losing it--because that would make THEM unhappy.

I also disapprove of aquariums and caged birds for the same reason. Animals should be allowed to roam their natural habitat, period. Same as you and me.

Anything less is downright cruel, I don't care what anyone says.

ON EDIT: And yes, I realize that the indoor-cat people are not TRYING to be cruel. But in my opinion, it is cruel to trap any animal indoors. Hell, I even take my houseplants outside from time to time for a breather!

[arcadian]

5. There is no way our kitties would stay in.

Constantly scratching at the door. The mama is a barn kitty, we try to keep them in as much as possible.

[Flaxbee]

6. Because the two of mine I let out during the day (and bring in

every night at dusk, if not earlier) were strays who came to me after living rough in this neighborhood. They know their turf pretty well. I do realize it's riskier, but Ivan goes batshit insane if I don't let him out to pee first thing in the morning and will attack the other cats mercilessly until he gets his al fresco piss. Then he's fine if he's in the rest of the day.

My last indoor/outdoor cat died at age 17. But I got him in every evening, we lived in a rural area far from busy roads, and when he got older and feeble, I didn't let him out anymore.

Edited to add: I have 6 cats; only two go in and out because they were adults by the time they got to me, and are used to being out a bit each day. The others I've had since they were kittens (brought to me by one of the ones who goes out) stay in all the time. It's situational.

[Noodleboy13]

12. Right. Tucker (at 10 yrs) can come and go in the summer, but

Mr. Underfoot, being all of 8mos old will only be allowed out with supervision. We have a fairly sizeable fenced in patio that discourages roaming. Tucker is fairly content to loll in the garden anyways. On the other hand, I was in some dire straits a few years back and had my cat turn into a barn/feral cat. I fairly certain he's gone through his 9 lives, and it still bothers me.


Peace
Noodleboy

[Inchworm]

8. I think some of it is upbringing

not an excuse, mind you.

I never had a cat. Growing up there were always cats around but none stayed in houses. Barns, outbuilding, garages..etc were their homes. Because of this it wasn't until I was 38 or so where I met this super hot sexy woman who had inside cats and said cats lived to be 15-20 years old. Hec, I thought cats only lived to be 5-10 max.

I started volunteering at local Humane Society and found that this was normal!! 20 year old cats. Who woulda thunk?!? Now, I get to explain to people who thought like I did why they cannot adopt a cat that isn't going to be kept inside.

:hi:

[LisaL]

13. My parents allowed cats outside.

One time the cat went out and never came back. Why would people do the same thing expecting a different result?

[Inchworm]

15. I cannot answer that deep question

I just polished off a bottle of Wild Irish Rose and am sipping a beer.. knowing full well I got stuff tomorrow :D

I hope one day they'll learn though.

:hi:

[MajorChode]

36. I agree

When I was a kid, my parents had cats and they always allowed them to free range. None of them lived very long.

However you can't justify your behavior solely on the way things used to be. My parents also allowed me to bounce around in the back seat without a safety belt, as did every other parent I knew back then. That doesn't mean it's OK to let my kids do it and I never did.

Thanks for your service volunteering for a worthwhile cause, BTW.

[Shell Beau]

9. I will say this pisses me off. I have had cats

come into my yard where my animals are contained and have been killed. My dog killed a couple of cats one time. It killed my soul. But my dog acted on instinct.

Had my dog gone into the neighbor's yard and killed their cat, I would be a bad pet owner.

It is totally fucked up how some shit only applies to dogs. It pisses me off to no end, really.

[Critters2]

22. The beagle killed a feral kitten last summer. I was devastated.

She came in and curled up with Leon and slept all afternoon. I don't think she had any idea what she had done. But if the owner of that kitten's ancestors had kept them inside, that awful thing wouldn't have happened.

My cats are indoors all the time. I have a screened porch where they hang out in the summer, and I have lots of windows so they get lots of fresh air. Two have no interest in going out, the other has grudgingly learned to be an indoor cat.

[Shell Beau]

26. I was devastated when my doggie killed the cat.

It killed me. I love ALL animals. I am a little partial to dogs, but all animals matter to me. The cat may have been feral for all I know. I almost wish it were so some little kid wasn't home wondering about his cat.

My Hutch got run over last year. I take FULL responsibility for that. We were going to take him for a ride. He usually just jumped right in the truck with no hesitation. Well we didn't leash him up. My husband grabbed him by his collar and helped him into the truck. Well, he jumped right out. He ran straight for the road and got smacked. The asshole that hit him kept going like nothing happened. I only call him an asshole because he didn't have the common courtesy to stop and check on the situation. He couldn't have prevented hitting him though. We buried Hutch that day. It killed me. BUT I take responsibility for his death. He wasn't leashed the way he should have been.

[MajorChode]

43. The situation on dogs and cats is a bit different

Dogs can be fenced, although some fences won't contain some dogs. I let my dogs out for short periods during the day, but they are fully contained within my yard. It's nearly impossible to contain a cat within the constraints of a yard unless they have been declawed.

In a way I can almost understand the reasoning behind those cat owners to allow their pets to free range. Since dogs get to enjoy the outdoors, why can't cats? The problem is that cats really don't need to go outside to be happy. They may enjoy going outside and chasing birds and other animals, but then you have a situation where a non-native species is being allowed to hunt a native species. Wild animals have a right to be free. Domesticated animals don't.

The biggest problem I have with cat owners that allow their pets to free range is they love their pets and they expect everyone else to love them also. It's hard to love an animal that comes into your yard, shits in your flower beds, kills the baby birds that nest in your trees, and climbs into your engine compartment only to get shredded by the fan.

[DeepBlueC]

72. how do you know what makes cats happy?

many cat owners here would dispute that.

[MajorChode]

82. So you're the only one allowed to posses such knowledge?

The reason I know what makes cats happy is because animals exhibit certain behaviors when they aren't and it's entirely possible to address the problem without ever allowing the pet to go outdoors unrestrained. It's simply a matter of creating an indoor environment that's suitable to the animal and/or training the cat to walk on a leash. It's pretty basic animal behavioral science. So they can dispute it all they want, but all they will have to base it on is their own unsupported opinion.

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/cat_care/keeping_your_cat_happy_indoors.html

[DeepBlueC]

99. what you cite is nothing more than a position

It proves only that it can be done and in some cases it may be the only available option. That's true for the Humane Society which keeps cats confined & does the best at it that it can. I go back to hundreds of years of received knowledge and the natural history of the animal in question and my own perceptions of what makes my cats happy...not the same thing for all of them. That passes the test for me. Quoting websites as superior to experience does not make it so. What you quote are assertions that may have evidence to back it but it is not there. And you quote from people who have taken an advocacy position which often makes them selective in their presentation of evidence. HSUS has decided what is best on the whole. They do not speak for me or my pets on all issues. There are people who can only have indoor cats (Humane Societies among them) and that is just fine. I am not saying that cats or dogs or people need the outdoors (although we need Vitamin D in amounts best produced by the sun on skin) but I resist people who insist that any of us must not have it. Because it's best. That's almost always a complex assessment and if there are easy answers then the question never arises (e.g. "Do people need to eat?" although come to think of it there are saddhus said to live on air so even that is not entirely obvious to all.)

[MajorChode]

115. It's a position based on the knowledge and experience of animal behaviorists

When faced with a choice between the expert opinon of someone who is educated in a particular field and practices that particular field and a layman, which do you think is more relevant?

[DeepBlueC]

116. think of the "financial experts" and answer that question today

When people trot out experts to persuade or compel us to change the behavior of an animal whose natural history we know, who has been domesticated for a long time and who has thrived as a species under present conditions, I am inclined to question expert opinion when it looks to change all that. We have had quack behaviorists (although they were experts at the time)who have widely popularized now discredited views of child-rearing. Discrediting the knowledge and observations and judgment of generations of parents has been easy because of course they were not "experts". In matters of opinion the pendulum does swing.

Every year expert opinions send innocent people to prison or worse. Locally the god of forensic pathology in this province, whose word was "proof" in court, trusted 100% by the Coroner's Office and the District Attorney's office, has been discredited and a parade of innocent parents have been cleared of murdering their children. In fact it now appears that one supposed murder victim was in fact alive until he suffocated in the body bag in which he was shipped to Toronto for autopsy.

In the end expert opinions are just that - opinions - and open to question and to scrutiny. The HSUS that supports indoor-only living also practices compulsory neutering and spaying for house pets. Is it your view that if we can inflict the latter on a large scale then why can't we impose the former? The former you have said you find egregious and in the long run there may be a cost for it with the emergence and domination of a kitty mill industry which will no doubt present its own problem for HSUS.

In situations where I have no knowledge or experience I am certainly going to seek expert opinion because if I have no basis on which to form an opinion I will seek out someone who does and accept the risk of taking that advice. That is not the case here. I am not persuaded. Some people already are and maybe more will be. The only way this argument will be won is one by one, persuasion of individuals. That really is the position of HSUS as I understand it. They are not off lobbying governments to pass laws. If I find out that they are then that's one less check I'll write every year!

[DeepBlueC]

119. Is that a version of...

"Who are you going to believe...me or your own lyin' eyes?"? :D

[MajorChode]

126. It was a rhetorical question that you answered with more obfuscation

Claiming that just because experts in some fields are sometimes wrong means all experts in all fields are wrong really rises to a level of silliness that I'm just not going to venture much farther.

[DeepBlueC]

128. HSUS has a lot to answer for

To put it all in a wider context, sometime down the line I think it may be recognized that HSUS has done much to make little Frankensteins out of domestic animals. The Humane Society made it their mission to control pet populations by encouraging spay and neuter for every pet owner and mandating it for every person who adopts a pet from the HS. Kind of an attempt to bring the problem of saving unwanted animals down to manageable proportions by decreasing the number of animals in existence. As you have said we would not consider this kind of surgery a humane option for people because sexual pursuit and mating is so important to our human life. I'm guessing that it was a big part of cats' lives too but one that is on the whole inconvenient for human owners. So the Humane Society now takes as its job taking in strays and reuniting them with their owners. Their own statistics say that only one in five pets is reunited with an owner so its a job that must get bigger and bigger especially of there is a no kill policy. Answer: get them off the streets, by mandate. They say it is to make life better for the cats and I am sure that they believe that but it is also easy to see that this would make their mission a lot more manageable. At the time they embarked on this road of population control they used the technology available to them. Birth control by surgery is a pretty radical option that changes the lives of the animals in a fundamental way but it does beat drowning kittens. And we have found that we can do quite nicely without animal sexuality. If the HS were facing the same problem for the first time today one suspects that they would have to consider other options for population control, either birth control implants or pills or less radical surgeries like tubal ligation and vasectomy. In fact with these options available it is hard to imagine that there would not be great public outcry if HSUS came up with the solution of castration and hysterectomy. But even now that other options exist that allow cats to remain physically whole, hormonally normal, more like cats rather than Kats-Lite, the public has embraced expert wisdom in favor of a rather cruel and morally questionable solution. The experts who first came up with the idea in order to control population have not seen any reason to explore or recommend the better options that exist today. Now that we have started to do as the experts recommend, people are also willing to believe that these surgeries improve their behaviors and attitudes. It does extend the amount of control we exert over cats' lives.

Now the experts tell us that cats really belong indoors, natural history be damned. It certainly will reduce the number of strays the HS is endeavoring to return or rehome. So I see how it serves their own well-meaning mission. What I do not see is how it gives them the right to alter biology and behavior to bring their Mission to a size they can manage and to make every cat owner co-operate. Again the HS is welcome to speak to me but they do not speak for me. The HS has enormous influence and when the err for reasons well-meaning or expedient the ripples will in time cross the country and cause changes that are difficult to undo even when they are recognized to be somewhat ill-advised. Nor do they change course easily when new information or technology becomes available; there is a whole infrastructure of veterinary care and practice and municipal practice and regulation that is tied together with it. That's kind of the downside of such success.

Obfuscation? You asked something along the lines of "isn't it better?" and I am saying, plainly, "no". You say "but these are experts!!" I say: "Experts have been wrong before ergo these experts CAN be wrong" and many people with much experience of cats challenge them. Since that chance exists I am not going to bet the farm on their self-declared expertise. Their history is not unblemished.

[MajorChode]

131. So what is natural about a cat living with a human in the first place?

If the experts "CAN" be wrong, then provide evidence as to why you think they ARE wrong. Stating they have an agenda is simply ad hominem at best, especially when their agenda is the best interests of cats in the first place. You may not agree with their methods, but the alternatives you propose are far worse.

If you truly were interested in the cat's "natural" state, you wouldn't keep it in the first place as there's nothing natural about keeping a cat under any terms. In fact, there's nothing "natural" about a domesticated cat that has been selectively bred for centuries. That's why your half-fast proposals fail the sniff test right out of the gate.

[DeepBlueC]

142. I don't argue nature; I argue choice

Most cats that I know of aren't selectively bred. None of the ones I care for are. Strictly hybrid vigor.

I gave you my reasons why I think said experts have been wrong in the past and are wrong now, although I can see that the suggestion is a practical kind of solution from their point of view. Cat owners can also claim to have their cats' best interests in mind. As I pointed out the cats' best interest in HSUS view converges rather conveniently with with making what they see as their own job easier. HSUS of necessity they has an institutional perspective and advocates for universal practices. Problem there is if you are wrong they are not easily undone.

Domestication is fairly natural and science has documented archaeologically its evolutionary history. Before we claimed ownership of cats and dogs we shared space with them in an arrangement of some mutual benefit, partnership if you will. On the other hand what your link suggests sounds more like capture and confinement in comparison. I think we should hesitate before pushing the continuum even further in that direction as a matter of policy. What I see is a never-ending effort to make the lives of domestic pets more restricted and more confined and what I feel is empathy for the animals who though beloved of humans are asked to pay an ever higher price for the association.

Me, I gave my cats an alternative to the street and it seems to suit them. They can leave at any time but they don't. They are only yards away from their former haunts. They are adults with choices and it looks to me that they choose to live here. It's an arrangement that pleases us all.


I haven't made any ad hominem attacks. What you identify as ad hominem is nothing of the sort. My objection is to a practice and its implications and its institutional history and not to the motives or character or intelligence of individuals. I haven't advocated a return to a state of nature in some distant archaeological past either as you imply. Fat lot of good that would do a skinny kitty mewing in a foot of snow. I am not operating from the lofty perch of pure principle at all. Cats and dogs and humans came together by choice before humans asserted control and ownership. I think our stewardship ought to assess risk and honor and preserve choice as much as possible. How is that "half fast?" In fact as far as ad hominem attacks go that one serves quite nicely; you decline to respond to my comments except to dismiss them as "half-fast" and, gulp, stinky?

By the way the figure for life span of indoor/outdoor/feral cats would be more useful if it were a median rather than an average. The issue of kittens is what skews the figure to the point where is just does not correlate with most people's experience.

Do you have pets yourself?

[MajorChode]

147. ad hominem is a pretty simple term

You summarily dismiss the HSUS opinion solely based on their motives. That is ad hominem.

If I dismiss your opinion based solely on that opinion and not your "motives or character or intelligence" that is not ad hominem.

I didn't decline to respond to your comments. I responded to them and gave a detailed explanation as to why they neither make sense or are practical. Furthermore I supported my own assertions with actual evidence.

Your cats are selectively bred because they bear almost no resemblance to the natural creatures they are derived from. How they were bred in the 2-3 generations before you associated with them is completely irrelevant.

Cats and dogs and humans came together by choice? I'm not sure I should even reply to something so far fetched. It sounds like something out of a really bad B movie or comic book rather than anything based on historical fact or even sound reasoning.

And if you're wondering why I refer to your ideas as "half-fast", I'll explain it to you in simpler terms. Your ideas of "freedom" practically insure half a life (actually far less than half). It's kinda hard for an animal to be free if it's dead. Your ideas of "freedom" include rights to "hormones" but not the right to procreate which is kinda the entire reason behind those hormones in the first place.

The stewardship of an animal requires an effort to insure a good shot at a full life and dying of natural causes. No other freedom is as fundamental. If you have reservations about what is required to accomplish that, then perhaps you should more carefully consider whether you are up to those responsibilities in the first place.

I'm not even going to address your last question.

[DeepBlueC]

150. I wasn't asking; I know

You summarily dismiss the HSUS opinion solely based on their motives. That is ad hominem.
_________________________________

So political discussion is impossible then as well? I can question the institutional rationale as it is expressed in policy with legitimacy. If I said that the director wants all cats to be sterile because he's probably going to set up a kitty mill business that would be an ad hominem unsupported attack on the motives of an individual. My argument was in no way personal and the history of their past policies leads me to the conclusion I made. Nor was an "attack". There is divergence between institutions and individuals even when both are motivated by what is best for the animal. It's inevitable.

________________________________________________________________________

Cats and dogs and humans came together by choice? I'm not sure I should even reply to something so far fetched. It sounds like something out of a really bad B movie or comic book rather than anything based on historical fact or even sound reasoning.

I refer to archaeological evidence and the conclusions drawn from it and from the later historical record particularly as it is preserved in English common law.

____________________________________________________________________________

Your cats are selectively bred because they bear almost no resemblance to the natural creatures they are derived from. How they were bred in the 2-3 generations before you associated with them is completely irrelevant.

You have heard of adaptation, evolution? And so what relevance does this have to the question before us?

_____________________________________________________________________________


The stewardship of an animal requires an effort to insure a good shot at a full life and dying of natural causes. No other freedom is as fundamental. If you have reservations about what is required to accomplish that, then perhaps you should more carefully consider whether you are up to those responsibilities in the first place.

I think we can agree on that. I have had many cats over many years and those that are no longer with me died of the usual catalogue of scourges that carry off humans, cancer and kidney failure etc. And even at that they lived to be a ripe old age in cat terms. I think a full life requires me to offer them some exercise of choice. You counter that one can't offer them a full life if they are castrated and spayed (per the recommendation of HSUS experts)and even if birth control were to preserve their social and sexual interactions they wouldn't procreate and that is an infringement on an essential freedom so we might as well give up and keep them safe and confined AND sterile. Is that right? Or do we just destroy the species we have wrecked? I no longer have any sense of direction in your argument. You are going in two directions at once. I can see what you argue against (everything) but I no longer have any clear idea of what you argue for because you support HSUS and yet you argue against their policies at the same time. What is it, you can't take concord of any kind? I love your lofty contempt btw ...so often it carries one right past coherence of argument.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

As to the last question there is no need to answer. I think I know.


-30-

[MajorChode]

163. Obviously you don't

So political discussion is impossible then as well? I can question the institutional rationale as it is expressed in policy with legitimacy. If I said that the director wants all cats to be sterile because he's probably going to set up a kitty mill business that would be an ad hominem unsupported attack on the motives of an individual. My argument was in no way personal and the history of their past policies leads me to the conclusion I made. Nor was an "attack". There is divergence between institutions and individuals even when both are motivated by what is best for the animal. It's inevitable.

Political discussions composed exclusively of ad hominem are just as much BS. If that's what passes as a substantive argument in your book then I'd say you have little to offer there as well. That's about as far into your false analogies as I wish to go.

I refer to archaeological evidence and the conclusions drawn from it and from the later historical record particularly as it is preserved in English common law.

Experts on the subject can't agree on exactly how the relationship between humans and dogs and cats began. So I'm to believe you have the answer?

You have heard of adaptation, evolution? And so what relevance does this have to the question before us?

My relevance was clearly stated. Go back up the thread and you'll find your answer.

I have had many cats over many years and those that are no longer with me died of the usual catalogue of scourges that carry off humans, cancer and kidney failure etc. And even at that they lived to be a ripe old age in cat terms.

I seriously doubt your sincerity here, but even given the small chance that you are giving an accurate account of your experience, it would still be anecdotal and completely useless in advocating what is best for the masses. Even within this thread there are numerous anecdotes that run completely opposite of your claim.

I think a full life requires me to offer them some exercise of choice.

Yes, and I figured that one out from your first post. The only question then becomes are those choices you offer going against the best interests of the animal. As I've clearly stated numerous times I think they aren't and I've supported my assertions with sound reasoning and expert opinions which I provided reference. You've attempted to support your assertions with ad hominem, obfuscation, and alleged evidence which is unverifiable.

Is that right? Or do we just destroy the species we have wrecked? I no longer have any sense of direction in your argument. You are going in two directions at once. I can see what you argue against (everything) but I no longer have any clear idea of what you argue for because you support HSUS and yet you argue against their policies at the same time. What is it, you can't take concord of any kind?

Looks like your attempts at obfuscation backfired, no? I haven't argued against the policies of HSUS. I've argued against what you advocate. Near as I can tell from your incoherent ramblings you think cats should be allowed "choice" which includes coming and going as they please, never being spayed or neutered so their hormones can remain intact, because anything less will "destroy" the species.

As to the last question there is no need to answer. I think I know.

Kinda looks a bit like "lofty contempt", no?

At any rate this entire discussion has gone a notch or two past the level of absurdity I'm usually willing to tolerate. Feel free to have the last word as I'm sure such things matter greatly to you. Just don't count on it being read by me because the chances of that are about the same as you producing a substantive argument.

[DeepBlueC]

177. nah

[Voice for Peace]

176. amen on choice

[Voice for Peace]

175. not obfuscation -- I would trust myself before I trust experts because so many experts

are idiots regardless of credentials.

[BikeWriter]

155. You're damned right!

[BikeWriter]

154. Brava!

[mcctatas]

14. It makes them taste better?

:hides:

[madinmaryland]

25. Nice post, Michael Vick.

:puke:

[sniffa]

134. My response to this thread was going to be

So they can market the cat meat as free range.

[Marrah_G]

167. That was my first thought too but decided not to post it !

My own cats would have laughed though!

[Lost in CT]

153. That was my first snarky thought as well.

And I love my kitties

[BarenakedLady]

18. I've done it in the past

Well, more accurately my parents had indoor/outdoor cats. We were lucky that none of them were killed in a horrible fashion. Well, I take that back, we lost a few to feline leukemia. I've had strictly indoor cats for the past 20 years or so. My oldest kitty is going on 15.

[noamnety]

19. My indoor/outdoor cat is 16 or 17 now

She's admittedly a bit of a dumbass; I did come home from work once to find her sunning herself in the center of the road in front of our house. All the same, she seems to be surviving quite nicely.

We have a couple acres with some woods, though - and generally she's not a wanderer. She likes to lie on the back porch watching the squirrels at the feeder like they're a tv show, and follows me around like a dog if I'm outside.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. I don't know why other people do it. I know why I allow mine to

come and go as they please. They have a pet door.

[MicaelS]

27. Because too many cat "zealots".....

Over-identify themselves emotionally with their cats. They project themselves onto the cat. They don't want any restrictions on their freedoms, so they presume the cat shouldn't have any restrictions on its freedoms. They treat the cat as a human being with equivalent rights to any other human. That translates to --- humans should be free = so should cats.

[ThomCat]

28. That doesn't actually answer the question.

You're just using the question as an opportunity to post your entirely separate gripe about some cat owners.

:shrug:

[MicaelS]

33. You're right, so I edited my post n/t

[Shell Beau]

29. Well that goes for dog owners too.

You would probably consider me a "zealot" about my dogs.

[MicaelS]

39. No, probably not.

Plenty of people treat their pets as members of their family. But I bet you don't let your dogs out to roam the streets every night, do you? Even though it's "natural" for dogs to be pack animals and roam in packs. Why because that would be plainly irresponsible. Do house bird owners let their birds fly free in the great outdoors? No, because the bird would not return. Unfortunately, cat owners aren't held to the same standards of behavior as dog owners, even though cats kill plenty of songbirds, squirrels and other animals.

And any time something happens to a free-roaming or feral cats, it's never the fault of the cat or the cat owner, the cat is doing what is "natural" and god forbid human beings should interfere with the natural practices of the cat. Rather it's the fault of human beings who ran over the cat, or killed the cat in some other way, or dogs who killed the cat, or whatever. Then the cat zealots want to go to war. One cat zealot made an outrageous comment right here one this board. When one of their feral cats was shot, they stated that they would like stand on the chest of the person who shot the cat and shoot their eyes out with a BB gun. That is flat sick.

I like cat, as long as they are kept indoors where they can't be killed, or kill other animals. What I despise is the behavior of the cat zealots.

[RoyGBiv]

32. Huh ...

And that has what to do with the question?

[Inchworm]

35. I like pie

;)

[RoyGBiv]

40. Me too ...

It's awesome.

[MajorChode]

38. Everything

What made you think it was tangential?

[RoyGBiv]

41. The edited version makes more sense ...

The version I replied to did not.

[MajorChode]

44. Ok, missed the first version

[dixiegrrrrl]

30. My orange cat is going on 15, outside all the time since age 4.

Her choice. She was traumatized by a hurricane when trapped in the house for 4 days,
after storm and rescue she demanded to be outside , but hangs around close to house on the deck or front yard.
Cat # 2 was inside cat when we lived in busy city street, is now 7 years old, sometimes outside, sometimes inside since we moved to large urban acre of land. He is chubby, catches mice and voles.
Sticks close to house, deck, porch.
Cat # 3 is female, insists on being outside, but I keep her inside during day because she is lethal to birds, lizards, etc. She tends to wander all over the property and woods if outside.
All are neutered and have shots to date.
Most of my cats have lived to be 12-15 years of age, choice of indoors or not varied.

[flvegan]

31. The cats that feeds here were strays. Won't come in. Can't blame her.

One must be around 6 years old by now. The other, no idea. Just showed up 6 months ago.

[sammythecat]

37. It's dependent on the situation

I live in the country. Right now I have 5 cats (6yrs to 20yrs) and a dog (20). The cats go in and out as they please through a cat door. Over the years I've lost 4 cats due to their being allowed to roam. One to a speeding car several years ago. 3 others just never returned home. It saddens me now even after many years. I figure it was a fox or an owl, maybe a snake, maybe a coyote, I don't know. There are no other dogs nearby. I never see any except for one crazyass beagle that shows up from god knows where every other Saturday and raises hell in the woods behind the house all afternoon. In fact, the little bastard's due tomorrow.

My pets don't bother anybody. My neighbors are Amish and the nearest is a couple hundred yards away. If my dog shits in their pasture they don't seem to mind. Plus she's almost 20 and rarely stays out for more than 15-30 minutes. I can't be positive about this, but I don't think the cats ever go further than about 30 yards from the house. When they're out they're generally right around the house somewhere.

I never went looking to get a pet. Mine have all been foundlings, and when I take them in they all go to the vet to get fixed. They get all the care and affection I'm able to give, and they get a good home for life. I want them to have a good life and I've decided to let them go outdoors. I realize it's a risk but I think their lives are fuller and more interesting this way and I just can't bring myself to close the door and confine them to sitting on a windowsill.

If I lived in a town or city I wouldn't let them out. I lived in town for 4 years and had a cat that never went out. When I moved here I let him out and he lived for 14 more years. That's good except that he died of feline leukemia, which he probably picked up somehow from being outside.

To be honest, I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing, but it's what I'm doing. I worry about them when they're not in at the usual times, but I know that while they're alive they have a good life here.

BTW, I have no problem with people who choose to keep their cats indoors in a proper environment. And I'm sorry this was lengthy. I know that really bugs some people, but, tough. This is my answer and I'm not a skilled enough writer to condense my answer into a few sentences all the time.

[MajorChode]

46. Everyone has to make their own decision about what's best

Since all your cats probably would have lived shorter lives had you not adopted them, certainly nobody could argue that you're giving them a better life that what they would have had otherwise.

However, there are a few more things to consider other than if your pets are bugging the neighbors. You also have a lot of non-human neighbors. If your cats stay outdoors for any length of time they are probably getting into the nests of the local bird population which are not specifically adapted to deal with the threat of non-native house cats.

Just something else to think about.

[sammythecat]

49. You're right

and that does concern me.

[DeepBlueC]

77. you can vaccinate your cat against feline leukemia

That virus is unfortunately widespread. Eighteen years is a good lifespan for a cat and that he achieved a full life while carrying FLV is testimony to the good care he got at home.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

42. Fitz has only been coming inside since December...

He's still pretty skittish; but he trusts us much more now than he did in November, when I started feeding him. I'm going to be taking him to the vet soon. I hope I don't lose his trust after I do...

[DeepBlueC]

83. keep him in for 7-10 days after surgery

No matter what he wants. It will take a while for the hormone levels to adjust. Good luck. :hi:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

110. Will do...

That's probably best to avoid infection, too. Thanks! :hi:

[RiffRandell]

47. My tortie adpoted us about 5 years ago from 3 houses down the street.

She dislocated her hip falling off a ledge inside our house; had surgery that cost about 3 grand. Our 17 year old cat has always been indoors (we adopted her when she was 8). I prefer having my cats indoors, but my tortie (who limps now) stays in our fenced back yard----and doesn't catch things as much as she used to.

[crimsonblue]

50. there are too many cats as is...

plus animals want to be free. Who am I to deny freedom to my cat. It gets excruciatingly bored during the day when it is cooped up inside.

[FlyingSquirrel]

51. I have 2 cats and a dog

All rescues. The dog has indoor/outdoor privileges - I wouldn't dream of leaving him outside in the cold, and wouldn't want to lock him in while I'm gone either so he would have to hold it till I came back. So he has a dog door. The cats use this dog door. Nothing I can do about it.

If I didn't have a dog, though, I would still allow the cats out because to me, life is about more than how long you can live. I'd live a lot longer in prison - doesn't mean I want to be there.

Also, some people don't mind the difficulty in preventing their cats from escaping out the door -- I do. Much easier to just let them go where they please.

(One of them pleases to be gone most of the time. The other one had half her face torn off when my daughter brought her home as a stray -- she doesn't like being outside nearly as much.)

[Mendocino]

56. I knew of some people

that let their two cats, a male and female, run free. The female kept getting pregnant. So they had the male fixed. I guess they thought the cats were monogamous.

[alphafemale]

58. !

:rofl:

[DeepBlueC]

79. lol

[AirmensMom]

59. Exercise and fun.

We have 9 kitties and allow the 5 younger ones to go outside. (The older ones have been indoor-only since birth and get a little confused about where they are when they go out.) We live out in the country on 8 acres, so they have a big yard to play in. They run around and chase each other at top speed. That would be impossible inside. The exercise is very good for them.

Most days, they go out in the morning and come in by noon. A few days ago, one of them wandered (or was chased) off, which was very scary. Fortunately, she came home. It did remind us of the risk.

The decision for us was one of quality vs. quantity of life. I have never had anything except indoor cats before, so we really took some time and thought about this. I would never let them out if we lived in a neighborhood or on a busy street. It's not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. :shrug:

I think your statistics are a bit off. I know plenty of people who have outdoor-only kitties well past the age of three years. The Humane Society might be lumping outdoor kitties together with feral kitties, maybe?

[fizzgig]

60. because they enjoy it and i live in a low traffic area

one of my girls loves being outside, so i let her out when i'm home during the day. she doesn't go far and never wants to be out more than maybe a half hour. i couldn't keep her in all the time, even if i wanted to, because she will lurk and make a mad dash as soon as i open the door if she feels she's been kept in too long.

we've always had indoor/outdoor cats and have been able to do so because we grew up, and my dad still lives in, a small neighborhood outside of town with nearly no traffic or predators. he put a cat door in a number of years ago so they could come and go as they please and the 'babies' of the current brood will be 11 in a few months. of all the cats i've had over the years, only one didn't make it to at least five.

that said, i would only let my cats out if i lived in a low traffic area with no real predators. if i lived further into town or in an area with coyotes or raptors (which are common in some parts of my area), it would be a completely different story.

[tabbycat31]

63. my indoor/outdoor cat is 15

He dosen't go out as much now as he did when he was younger. I'd actually perfer to put him out when he does his business as it's one less thing to scoop out of the box.

My next cats will be indoor only. I was 13 when I got Tabby and my parents have completely different philosophies about outdoor cats than I do.

[DevonRex]

65. We were adopted by a stray once. We could neither keep him in nor out.

When we bought our first house he showed up one day. That little devil wormed his way into our house nad our hearts. But he could unlatch the screens from the windows to get out. We'd come home and a screen would be on the ground outside and Jumper would be sitting in the sun.

He was eventually hit by a car. I couldn't go to work for days. Even had to take sleeping pills to sleep at night instead of just crying all night long.

Edited to add:

The cat I have now only goes out with me in the back yard. She stays close by and I bring her in with me when I go back in.

[gblady]

66. I've had....

indoor/outdoor cats all my life....
they died at ages 16, 19, 18, 12(acute kidney failure),
now have one at 18 and still going strong
along with 2 babies at age 6.
I feel I'm a very protective Mom...
and they are thriving...healthy and happy.

[octocat lady]

73. Cats need fresh air...It's inhumane to lock up animals!

The thing is not to declaw them, and also, if they get used to your area, they come back. We had two cats and no matter where they'd go, they'd always find their way home. The biggest problem we had to deal with was climbing. One cat somehow got onto the garage roof and broke her legs jumping off. The other was stuck in a tree, LOL. It was so sad to hear her plaintive meows up there...

[LisaL]

74. So one of your cats broke her legs, and the other got stuck in the

tree (which for whatever reason you find funny). But yet it's inhumane to lock them up?
:eyes:

[octocat lady]

75. Um...we got her out of the tree (clarifying)...And guess what?

Being outside may lead to many different situations and some of them may even lead to broken bones!

(No, wait--you've convinced me...I suggest you lock your children up in your house until they're 21...they might break a bone or skin a knee:rofl: )

[LisaL]

78. Maybe while I am at it, I should also neuter and spay my kids.

I suppose since you are comparing cats to humans you don't believe in spay and neuter either?
:eyes:

[octocat lady]

80. Do children reproduce? Do they have the same gestation rates? How about consciousness?

No, I would definitely try and control the animal population, but I don't believe in animals as accessories. I think it's horrible when people keep birds in cages because they are "pretty."

[DeepBlueC]

81. for the kids, yes, certainly

It will ELIMINATE ABORTIONS!!!

:woohoo:

[MajorChode]

86. You're simply perpetuating a myth

There's plenty of people who have indoor cats that don't feel they are being "inhumane" to them for keeping them in an environment where they are much more likely to live a complete life.

[northernlights]

141. here are ASPCA facts about feral cats

including their short life spans.

http://www.aspca.org/adoption/feral-cats-faq.html

[La Lioness Priyanka]

88. its inhumane to let my cat get lost, get run over by traffic or break her legs

i breathe in this house so clearly the air is fresh enough

[Iggo]

87. Because they're cats. (n/t)

[DS1]

89. Mine would go bonkers if I didn't let him out

He's my 4-legged Green Beret. Grew up on a farm just like Rambo, too.

[cherish44]

90. I'm forced to keep my cats outside because my crazy ex hates cats

He had it put in our divorce settlement that I could have no cats. Well I took my babies with me when I moved and they live outside. They have their own "house" which is a shed with a little kitty door. They stay pretty close to home but I do worry about them. There are lots of feral cats in my neighborhood so I know I'm feeding a sheltering some of them too. Anyway my cats are 15 and 17 years old and were indoor/outdoor cats, on a farm. One (the older one) is very independent and smart the other one is more of a baby and I'm sure would love to be inside

[LisaL]

95. How on Earth can someone demand in divorce settlement

that you can not have cats?

[cherish44]

96. He's just got every warped perceptions of the world...

He doesn't think animals should live in a house with people. He thinks it's unhealthy, blah..blah..blah...We had been in court for 3 years trying to come up with a settlement (I was only asking for half the marital assets after a 14 year marriage, not unreasonable in my mind but his asshole lawyer kept dragging it out) We got a mediator who basically to him that if we went to trial there's good chance he'll have to fork over half so he might as well settle. Anyway the cat thing was thrown is as his "F you" to me. I agreed just because I was tired of fighting and wanted to get on with my life. Ah well luckily I got my half in the form of a cash (he took out a loan to pay me off for my half of the 401K and the market was at its peak right before the crash) teehee. Karma, gotta love it.

[LisaL]

108. You are divorced and no longer live together. I can't undersand

how someone can demand you can not have cats because it's "unhealthy." He isn't living there with you.

[Lost in CT]

122. I second that there is no legal way that could be in a divorce settlement.

[Arugula Latte]

127. I know this isn't cool to say, but, honestly, I hate people who hate cats.

[Shell Beau]

144. I almost feel that way about people who hate dogs.

But some people didn't grow up around them like I did... But still, makes no sense to me. How can anyone NOT like a dog or cat? Being allergic doens't make you not like them. It makes you avoid them, so that excuse doesn't fly either.

[Arugula Latte]

148. Yeah, I just don't get that.

Animal haters in general ... I just can't relate.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

145. Bullshit, there's no way a divorce settlement could say that

[femmocrat]

93. Oh pish. I have a 20 -year old cat who has always lived outdoors.

He is neutered and never leaves the immediate area around the house.

[Sanity Claws]

98. Free range tastes better

I kid, I kid.
I have two cats. When we lived in a house, they spent a couple of hours a day in the backyard and occasionally wandered a bit farther but not much. I let them do it because it made them happy. One loved to climb a tree in the yard. They both enjoyed lying in the sun.
I was very concerned about their wellbeing. When I left the house, I always made sure they were in the house. They never stayed out overnight.
I think this kind of living, mostly indoors and a little outdoors, is good for them. They were very happy with this arrangement.
Unfortunately, I now live in a small apartment and they are stuck being indoor kitties only. They seem bored.

[northernlights]

102. my cat free-roams and is well into her teens

I do make her stay in the barn at night, by only feeding her dinner. Even that was a battle. In the house, she slept 24x7 in the attic insulation and was depressed. As a barn cat, according to my vet she isn't just happy, she is "ecstatically happy."

The cat I had growing up also free-roamed and he lived until his late teens, when we had him pts. He was blind, deaf, failing...and my parents were moving.

Feral cats only live a few years, but that's not the same as cats that are well fed, vetted, in a relatively protected area and allowed out by day.

[Upton]

103. Owners that allow their cats out are being irresponsible.

The damage free roaming cats do to the songbird population, not to mention other wildlife, is incalculable. It's safer for everyone involved to keep them inside

[dpbrown]

105. Because they hate wild songbird populations

Nonnative cats decimate native bird populations.

Cats should be inside or on a leash, same as dogs. They're pets, but when allowed to run around, they're unchecked killing machines.

[davsand]

106. Chaucer stays in the house full time.

We live on a street that is pretty high traffic, plus we back up to the school yard. Neither of those is really a good fit for any sort of free range critter--be it canine or feline. We live in a small town with leash laws, but there are an awful lot of folks who ignore them because there really IS no mechanism for enforcement. That also tends to create a danger for both dogs or cats left outside alone.

Something else that we have begun to see more and more in my area is the rise of the coyote population. Even in town we are seeing them and our house critters are easy pickings if there is something like that roaming around. I know several people locally who have had dogs and cats attacked and it scares hell out of me when I think about my 11 year old out there facing them--let alone my cat!

On a personal level, I made the decision to keep my kitties indoors based on many years of watching my cats die from disease or injury as a result of being outside. When I was a kid we had always had cats, and the majority of them were living outdoors. They were well fed, they always had fresh water, and they had shelter. In spite of that, they did not fare as well as my indoor kitties did, and I still shudder when I think of some of the injuries I've seen over the years.

Chaucer gives us all an amazing gift with his sheer presence, and I feel an obligation to him to do all I can to keep him safe and healthy. It may be a personal decision, but I at least can kinda control his environment when he's in my house.

YMMV.


Laura

[Paladin]

107. A Free-Ranging Cat Would Last About 3 Days In My Neighborhood.

Lots and lots of hungry coyotes around here (suburban Denver); occasional mountain lions as well. The area veterinarians advise that all small pets be kept under close watch......

[oedura]

109. We've ALWAYS had indoor cats...

I would be afraid to let my cats out for fear of what would happpen to them.

It's never been a problem. In fact, the cat we have now is a rescued stray, and she's fine with being indoors.

[Skittles]

112. I have a cat who is indoor / outdoor

he was a former injured stray feral and simply cannot be contained but we've come to an understanding - he goes out in the evening but comes home at night - he is fixed, is microchipped, sports a collar and has all his shots. That's just the way he is - if he doesn't get to go outside he destroys things, yells and is absolutely intolerable. His name, appropriately, is Riff Raff.

[nytemare]

130. Does he have a sister cat named Magenta?

:D

[Skittles]

133. LOL

I love Rocky Horror and I love the character Riff Raff but truth be told, I named him in honor of my English grandmother - who told me the long-haired musicians I had a penchant for swooning over were "bloody riff raff" :D

[Doremus]

113. You don't let your child play in the street. Why would you put your precious pet in the same danger?

(Not you, OP, but general "you")

Our neighbor befriended a stray kitten, feeding it, etc. It was the sweetest, most loving guy. The neighbor wouldn't let it in the house. We had just taken in a litter of 4 feral kittens and between them and our two rescued Greyhounds (one of which was not safe around small animals), I had my hands full and just couldn't take on another.

One night when I was working downstairs he came to the window with a look of terror on his face, then ran away. There was a territorial tom after him for invading his space and he was attacked before I could run upstairs to chase it off.

The next morning I went over to that neighbor's house and told her in no uncertain terms that kitty deserved to have a REAL home, not a food bowl on the porch. She took him to the local no-kill shelter and he found a home shortly thereafter.

There are TOO MANY dangers outside for cats: cars, dogs, coyotes, hawks, not to mention unscrupulous or even deranged people who get their jollies by hurting smaller creatures.

Cats should stay indoors, period.

[BrklynLiberal]

114. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=8603656&mesg_id=8603656

[Shell Beau]

143. I am guessing that is why this thread was started.

[Radical Activist]

117. Becuase they're animals.

My cat is over 15 and wouldn't stop howling if she wasn't let outside once in a while.

[zanne]

118. My indoor-outdoor cats...

The first one lived to be 18. Now I have three indoor-outdoor cats. They're all over ten years old and seldom leave the yard. They were all former strays and absolutely hate being kept indoors.

[Lavender Brown]

120. Why do people like to pour salt in other people's wounds?

:shrug:

[Deja Q]

123. Because, like french fries, they'd otherwise taste pretty bland?

:hide:

[kaiden]

129. We have 8 cats. We live in the mountains.

People say, "Are they inside cats?" "Yes." "How can that be? Don't cats want to be outside?"

In our neck of the woods (literally) there are BIGGER cats that traverse the acreage (not to mention coyotes and foxes) and we would be STUPID to let our cats out at any time. We have big windows -- they get used to it. And every single one of them is over the age of 12.

[Bucky]

132. Is longevity preferable to quality of life? I assume these figures include abandoned cats

Enough with this nanny state big brotherism!! Let cats be cats! Now I shall begin singing:

"Born freeeeee... As free as the winnnnd bloooooowssss....!"

[Shell Beau]

146. But people like me feel guilty that someone else's cat

roamed into my fenced in backyard to meet its death (my dog). I understand that cats want to be outside at times, but if my dog's life was in peril if I ler her out without being contained, I wouldn't do it. Either that or I wouldn't have one as a pet.

[paulsby]

135. free range cats are tastier. that's why nt

[tangent90]

136. Our kitty is free to come and go. Has been for 12 years.

We wouldn't even think of locking a feline inside an artificial domicile. Anyone who would lock a cat indoors is an asshole.

[BikeWriter]

158. I have seen my dogs stretch a cat's bowels out twenty feet in an instant!

Do you want that for your cat?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

165. anyone who would risk their cat being run over by a car is the real asshole. nt

[Deep13]

174. "Born free, as free as the wind blows...

"...as free as the grass grows
Born free to follow your heart

"Live free and beauty surrounds you
The world still astounds you
Each time you look at a star

"Stay free, where no walls divide you
You're free as the roaring tide
So there's no need to hide

"Born free, and life is worth living
But only worth living
'cause you're born free

"(Stay free, where no walls divide you)
You're free as the roaring tide
So there's no need to hide

"Born free, and life is worth living
But only worth living
'cause you're born free"


I think it is a quality of life issue. There are risks in allowing a cat to wander around, but confining it means its only half a cat. Kitties are smart animals and I think it is a bit cruel to make them live long lives as prisoners with no opportunity to leave me gifts of dead rodents in the driveway.
:-)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

178. domesticated animals are hardly born free. nt

[Deep13]

179. I think kitties are the exception...

...because they go where ever they want.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

180. including under cars. nt

[Deep13]

181. Yeah it can happen.

When I was small, I lived on route 122 in MA near Worcester. I'm afraid we lost a few kitties. Once they survived a year or so, it was very unlikely they would be hit. We rented a farm house and we did not want to keep them inside because farm = kitty paradise. Once I was in high school and living on a side street in a town, our kitties lived a long time and had to be put down when they became old and crippled. If I lived where you live I might concede that they cannot got outside.

I don't have a cat now as much as I like them because I don't want a box of shit in the house and their dander bothers my nose. Plus, Sweetie would insist on keeping them in. When we get the house fixed up, we are going to get a couple of rabbits. They are not very smart and will not suffer by being kept indoors.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

182. sweetie is right. nt

[Deep13]

183. If you ever come visit, you can be entertained by our rabbits...

...for about five minutes until terminal boredom sets in.:-)

[Lethe]

140. my cat was feral, and she is unhappy unless she can go outside

she enjoys the stimulation of the outdoors, and if you don't let her out, she goes bonkers indoors

she must have the excitement of the stalk and the kill

[La Lioness Priyanka]

170. i think its different when you own a true feral cos those cats can take care of themselves

and its not fair to them.

[BikeWriter]

151. Because they don't love them enough to be responsible!

[Lorien]

159. Mine goes out every day-on a leash

she loves it

[uppityperson]

161. Mine catch mice at our rural place.

They've lived 16-18 yrs also. Only one who died earlier had caught an immune disorder from another cat when he lived in town before we got him.

Guess I am lucky to live where I am to be able to be dog free, traffic free, yet have little mices for the cats to catch.

[LynneSin]

166. You're right it sucks but....

for some of these cats being a 'free-ranger' might still give them a better life. For some reasons the owner just might not be able to take the cat indoors but hopefully they'll have the cat fixed, get it's shots and provide food & shelter so the cat, while alive, has a decent life.

[Deep13]

171. Cats are free-roaming animals.

Confining them to the indoors takes the "cat" out of them.

[Resuscitated Ethics]

184. Even ferals in managed colonies live longer than three

Free-roamers come out in the daytime and may or may not have owners that can handle them enough for regular vet visits. Ferals are nocturnal and not owned by anybody.

Outdoor/indoor companion animal is a choice.

I choose to keep mine indoors because of predators and disease.

A neighbor has a load of free-roamers that I got fixed (long story: elderly neighbor)and I keep food and water on my porch for three of them. A free-roaming dog ate one of their tails off. I couldn't catch that miracle kitty for a month of trying. Finally he healed up. One is at least ten years old, started her life as a momma having two to three litters a year.

Predators include: dogs, raccoons, groundhogs (woodchucks(?), hawks, eagles, cars, kids. Rabies, distemper, on and on.

Cats have been domesticated for far too long to be able to exist without human help.

I can't judge the indoor /outdoor camp for being responsible for every feline roadkill. Personally I can't take the responsibility.

[dbackjon]

186. Because they are clueless, selfish bastards that don't understand the harm they are doing

To the cats, and to the environment.


Cats do not belong outdoors.

[Jersey Devil]

187. My cat was a wandering vagabond and lived 20 years

So much for that theory.