The mechanic says the battery and charging system are fine, but it keeps not starting

[OmahaBlueDog]

Poll question: The mechanic says the battery and charging system are fine, but it keeps not starting

My wife was at a shopping plaza, and the 2006 Taurus would not start. I opened the hood, pulled the caps off the battery cells, saw that they were los (but I've seen lower) poured bottled water into the battery cells, and the darn thing starts right up. So we figure the battery is on its way out. We go to the mechanic, who says that they load tested the bat and checked the charging system and no problem was found. Then, Mrs. OBD drove around, did some shopping, got home, and then went to start it again -- no start.

Mrs. OBD then said some unkind things about the mechanic that I really don't think I should repeat.

The odd thing is, if I drive, then park, and come back in 15 minutes, the car won't start. If I wait an hour, it starts right up.

What do you think?


(also, if you have ten minutes, are bored, and don't mind sharing your views, please check out the thread referenced in my sig line).

[Curmudgeoness]

1. Uh, take it back to the mechanic and tell him he is missing something.

Try to avoid using the words, incompetent, idiot, or moron.

[OmahaBlueDog]

2. I believe Mrs. OBD said it would be a cold day in Hell before they look at any of our vehicles again

..however, another mechanic may be sought out and consulted.

[Curmudgeoness]

6. I am by far not a mechanic, but I don't think it is that easy to diagnose

a problem. Of course, bow to Mrs. OBD's decision, but in fairness to the mechanic, if the problem does not happen every time (and you know it never does when it is there), it is difficult. Unless they charged a lot for this wrong diagnosis. My mechanic would not have charged for this sort of thing.

[LeftyFingerPop]

3. Exact same thing happened to me once.

I pulled out the back seat, and the devil was under there. When I got rid of him, the car started with no problems. Good luck.

[OmahaBlueDog]

5. So, you're recommending an excorcist?

What would I look under in the yellow pages?

[marzipanni]

4. A worn spot in the starter? That's what happened to my old Mazda.

http://www.samarins.com/diagnose/index.html

[Kali]

7. vapor lock? is it hot where you are?

did they read codes? computers can fail too

I had a truck long ago that had an issue like this - just a dirty fuel filter and eventually the pump failed too

post in the auto forum http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=310

[OmahaBlueDog]

9. Yes, Hot.

..and I have posted to the automotive forum.

Dear Forum, I always thought your stories were made up until one day, I was in my 2006 Taurus with my wife. It was hot, and the car woundn't start.........

..never mind - I had a depraved childhood.

[Mopar151]

11. Heat KILLS batteries.

I know a part-time Lost Wages (Las Vegas) resident. Replaces every 2 years, just because.

[flvegan]

8. Things it could be

-Cooling fan is shot. Drive and park, engine coolant sits in hot engine and radiator. In 15 minutes, is now too hot, computer keeps from starting. In an hour, cooled off enough.

-Starter is getting too hot, or is worn.

-Stupid computers and sensors not working right.

-Possessed by the Devil.

-Something else.

[Mopar151]

10. I would guess #2

If labor cost is not an object (i.e. DIY), I'd check the battery cables and connections, including the ground(s). Also, if it is like older Fords with a seperate solenoid, sometimes they kind of go wonky at random.
And if all this stuff has to be screwed with, and the battery is over 3 years old, it's gettin' replaced.

[Dr Morbius]

13. Under that heading of "something else", look at the wiring.

Crappy wiring in a car will make all kinds of mysterious symptoms occur.

And under the heading of "stupid computer and sensors", the sensor in particular to examine is the thermostat.

And do yourself a favor, soonest: get a new mechanic. Talk to neighbors or relatives, see who they recommend. Word-of-mouth finds a good mechanic a lot faster than randomly selecting one from the yellow pages. My mechanic would be interested in finding out what's wrong; why isn't yours?

[panader0]

12. I'll vote if you tell me what Mrs OBD said (unkindly)

[jobycom]

14. How old is the battery? That's the most likely cause.

That's not unusual for a battery to pass a load test but still not be strong enough to start the car. Don't ask me why, I don't know, but it's happened to me, and my mechanics here at work have explained it to me more than I bothered to remember. After a battery sits a while, it will often recharge a bit, so that part isn't unusual. I'd say the battery can hold a charge, but not a strong enough charge, so when you load test it it seems fine, and whine it's been sitting it recharges just enough to start it, but when it's just been turned off it doesn't have enough strength to restart it. It will get worse.

That's assuming there's reason to blame the battery at all. If you turn the key and it barely turns over, that's probably what it is. If, for instance, the car turns over easily but then slowly gets weaker after a couple of minutes of trying to start it, then it's probably not the battery. More likely something in the fuel, then, like a bad fuel pump or a clogged fuel filter (amazing how many mechanics don't think of that).

[Kaleva]

15. Had a similiar problem a few years ago.

Sometimes when i drove to a job site, the battery would be deader then a door nail when I finished the job and I was ready to leave for another job. This didn't happen every time and it perplexed the mechanics at two separate garages (the battery tested good after it was re-charged, the alternator was fine as was the wiring). Finally, a mechanic at a third garage figured it out. It was the battery which had an internal defect in it. At certain temps, the battery would short out and drain all power. After he replaced the battery, I never had the problem again.

[struggle4progress]

16. Get a horse: they don't need stuff like batteries

[Mopar151]

17. High maintainence cost

They don't have batteries, but they have hooves and teeth - and they eat whether they work or not. And there is little depravity in neglecting a machine, or abandoning it - but causing a noble creature agony from neglect is a pretty awful thing.

[struggle4progress]

31. "My car doesn't pooh in the streets. My car won't kick you in the head

if you carelessly walk behind it. My car goes faster than 10mph ..."

eyes:

... fuggin nitpickers ...

:eyes:

[Mopar151]

33. Is animal abuse friggin' nitpickin?

Watch Animal Cops on the Critter Channel - how many horses you see near dead from lack of "maintainence"? Domesticated horses are high-maintainence animals - it's that simple. Oxen are a little better, but they are r-e-e-a-l-y slow, and not so bright.

and I own a car which will kick you in the head, if you treat it wrong

[flying rabbit]

18. I had a car that would do

that- it turned out that the starter would get too hot and thus the solenoid wouldn't engage the starter (or something like that). New starter and it was fine.

[Angleae]

19. Been there, done that, with a 1994 Taurus last year.

Bad starter.

[Sweet Freedom]

20. I used to have a mazda that did that.

IIRC it was a problem with the starter.

[uncommon]

21. Did the mechanic check your spark plugs, loosen the battery connection to check the alternator or

check the starter?

I had some starting problems with my old Civic recently and the spark plugs were totally wrecked. Nice easy $10 fix (if you do it yourself).

[Mopar151]

27. Don't loosen the battery terminals to check the alternator!

It's a good way to zorch the diodes - and bad diodes usually kills the battery, along with requiring replacement of the alternator - basically, with bad diodes, you are feeding multiphase AC into the battery.

[OmahaBlueDog]

35. I zorched the diodes in an 83 Maxima once

It was not thrilling

[CBGLuthier]

22. Get a meter and test it yourself

Google how if you don't know how but basically you should have about two or more volts (around 14) when the car is running than when it is turned off (around 12).

[tigereye]

23. starter problem? Loose wire?

module of some sort?

[WCIL]

24. Yes, I'm going to vote starter

My son's 2000 Camry would not start, then start with no problems a few minutes later. This went on for a few days, and one day when he came home from work it wouldn't turn off. The starter burnt out. There was no fire, but smoke filled the car and blew all over the neighborhood. Thank God he wasn't in it at the time.

It cost $400 to fix (including the $50 tow) and nothing else was affected.

[TreasonousBastard]

25. What do you mean by "does not start?" Does it...

crank? Does it try to turn over? Does it start to crank, then die? Do you hear the starter clicking? Does it do absolutely nothing?

The battery is probably shot-- only because batteries are the first things to die. That would be if it groans, moans, clicks, or otherwise thinks about starting but just won't do it. The alternator may also be shot, but you would probably see a red light if it isn't working.

The starter may be shot, or the neutral switch on the gearshift may be shot. That's the one nobody thinks of, but if the switch isn't working right, no juice gets to the starter and nothing happens when you try to start. It might expand and contract with the heat just enough to work or not work depending on how hot it gets.

Always possible are ignition or fuel problems-- that's where you look if it cranks properly but won't catch.

Mechanics NEVER believe you when you tell them something's happening that they can't see, but try another mechanic anyway.

[OmahaBlueDog]

34. It's like it wants to turn over, but just doesn't have the strength

No clicking or other noises. No just-turn-the-key-and-nothing

[TreasonousBastard]

36. You lost me there. It wants to turn over, but does nothing? Seems like it would...

do one or the other, but not both.

Anyway...

If it turns over a little bit and stops, it's the battery, and maybe the alternator not charging the battery, but usually there's a clicking noise when the battery is drained. It could also be something as simple as the battery cables being corroded-- I had that problem with a couple of cars years ago. If you can jump start it, it's definitely the battery and/or alternator.

If it turns over a lot and doesn't "catch" it's the fuel or ignition system. The ignition system tends to be the culprit more often.

If absolutely nothing happens, and you turn on the lights and they don't dim when you turn the key, it's somewhere between the key and the starter. Could be the ignition switch itself, the neutral switch on the transmission (or the brakelight switch if you have a stick) or something on the starter. I would bet the neutral switch-- happened to me on three cars in the past.

[OmahaBlueDog]

37. Turns over a little bit and stops

That's what I was attempting to convey

[gvstn]

26. I'd vote to replace the starter.

I'm one of those people that replaces the battery at the first sign of trouble. Anytime my car doesn't start I'd be willing to pay $50 to get it going and get home. So I pay the $50-70 upfront and buy a new battery to save the headache.

My last car always had a new battery every 2 and 1/2 years because I'm so paranoid. It seemed to not start when it was hot rather than when it was cold. Anyway, the last time it happened my battery was only 6mos. old so I knew it wasn't that. The battery was fully charged so the shop ruled out the alternator and said replace the starter and be done with it. I agreed and never had another problem.

Symptoms were everything was fine but on days I did a lot of little errands 15 minutes at one shopping center than 15 minutes at another about the 6th stop the car wouldn't turn over. ABSOLUTELY no sound. Completely dead. By the time help arrived 45 minutes later it would turn right over. (I think the no sound is a key component in diagnosing because it made no sense but I don't know if that is true in every bad starter situation)

Apparently there can be worn parts of a starter wheel that it is the luck of the draw if it lands on them and causes a problem.

I think my repair was about $300 but people that know what they are doing can DIY much cheaper.

Good Luck! :)

[unpossibles]

28. Fuel pump or similar

They tend to fail in the heat once they start to go bad.

[frogmarch]

29. Cracked battery?

Maybe water is running out the bottom.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

30. Look at the battery cables and posts

Could be a loose one or they may just need a session with a cheap wire post cleaner.

[haele]

32. 2006, not sure. pre-2000, I'd say the starter solenoid, right next to the battery

Every one of the five 1980-1990 Fords I've had dealings with were notorious for starter solenoid problems after about 3 years or so. They are also hard to determine as "the problem" until they actually die, and it usually takes a few months of pain before they finally give up the ghost.
Another issue can be the OBC overheating, which has also happened around 75K of every Ford I've had. But symptoms of that tend to include engine revving and/or stalling while driving (rather than at idle) as well as the intermittent non-start.

Luckily, a solenoid is usually easy to fix. If you have one, that is. As I said, I'm not too certain about the newer models; anymore, they're not being manufactured to allow the average person - or even the average mechanic - to do any sort of maintenance other than to change fuses, fluids, breaks, and tires.
The companies want you to take your car to an "authorized dealer/technician" for most repair work, not to DYI in your garage.

Haele

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Have the mechanic check for short circuits

My first car kept not starting, and I even got an unnecessary new alternator.

It turned out that the problem was a short circuit that was draining the battery. With that fixed, I never had trouble starting again.

[david13]

39. Fer crisssake, its a ford. And you expect it to run after 4 years?? dc