How can you tell if a poem is good? If you can't relate to it does that mean

[Tuesday Afternoon]

anything?

[Ptah]

1. Objectively, you can't.

Keep it if you like it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. thanks, Ptah

always good advice, I think.

[Ptah]

19. I like this one --->

Bury Me with a Band

My mother used to say,"Bury me with a band," and I'd say,
"I don't think the grave will be big enough."
Instead we buried her with creosote bushes,
and a few worldly belongings.
The creosote is for brushing her footprints away as she leaves.
It is for keeping the earth away from her scared remains.
It is for leaving the smell of the desert with her.
to remind her of home one last time.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. interesting poem

reminds me of the way my Mother and I miscommunicate.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. My dear Tuesday Afternoon...

I've always thought that poetry is a very personal sort of expression.

I've read poems by famous, established poets that I thought weren't very good...

For me anyway, good is in the eye of the beholder...

:hi:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. perhaps you are right --

just trying to distinguish between the objective and the subjective, I suppose. :hi:

[begin_within]

3. I don't think there is any objective "good" in poetry. Charles Olson wrote an

influential essay on poetry called "Projective Verse" and a lot of it reads like gobbledygook to me, but probably the most famous line of it, and probably its central thesis was,

"A poem is energy transferred from where the poet got it (he will have some several causations), by way of the poem itself to, all the way over to, the reader. . . . the poem itself must, at all points, be a high energy-construct and, at all points, an energy-discharge."

This means something to me, in the sense that an image, thought, idea, or something that the human brain recognizes, is transferred from the world to the poet and then to the reader.

A famous haiku goes:

The sparrow hops
along the veranda
with wet feet.

In those few lines, you get a mental picture, and the process that created it was a transfer of energy from the scene to the poet to you.

I don't know if this helps, or makes it harder to understand. I know that when I like a certain poem, I "get it" in a way that it's hard to explain.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. That haiku reminds me of this poem by William Carlos Williams:

so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow
glazed with rain
water
beside the white
chickens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Wheelbarrow


I always liked this poem and I like the haiku as well. Thanks for replying.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

4. I always like the Haiku that gets posted in the Lounge...it smacks of sheer brilliance.

There are other acceptable poems as well, but the Haiku? "Must See Poet Ree."

:eyes:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. Hey --

I love your haiku. I have ordered everyone of them and daily check my mailbox for their arrival :D

[Amerigo Vespucci]

24. Keep checking, and thanks

:hug:

[MiddleFingerMom]

5. One of the more nationally well-known figures in community radio once told me at a conference...

.
..."You're contrary... I like you.
.
.
.
She meant it... and I LOVED that compliment.
.
.
.
Here I go again.
.
.
.
There is such a thing as BAD poetry.
.
.
.
Many of us are "poets" growing up -- perhaps ESPECIALLY in
our highschool years, when our emotions may be at their most
peak-and-valley state.
.
Because what we put down on paper is the result of UBERintense
personal and subjective emotion... we (as the poet/creator)
sometimes can't view it from outside that emotional context.
.
This is the CLASSIC basic misconception that "because it is
SO FUCKING INTENSE, it's just gotta be good as poetry".
.
Not so. It IS personal... and it does come from emotions that
I will not belittle in the LEAST... but it's quite often CRAP when
considered as "poetry".
.
Many of my peers in Poetry Workshop 101 came in with that idea
and that background. Their friends and family had told them how
wonderful what they were writing was SIMPLY because "it's SO
intense".
.
My poetry prof (who HATED the fact that he had to teach in order
to pay the mortgage DESPITE being a relatively successful poet --
and ironically was arguably the BEST prof in my entire college,
um... you know... career) said THESE brilliant words after allowing
us to critique each others poetry (and ALL of us were timid about
any REAL constructive criticism -- every single one of us giving
a critique equivalent to "It's got a good beat and you can dance
to it"):
.
"IF YOU WANT SOMEONE JUST TO TELL YOU HOW WONDERFUL
YOUR POETRY IS... SHOW IT TO YOUR MOTHER."
.
.
.
Then, and ONLY then did we get down to the work of becoming
"real" poets... considering, offering, using pace and rhythm and
flow and conservation of words and good use of non-cliched
metaphors, etc.
.
.
.
In some NATIONAL contests, where there were perhaps a few
thousand entrants and 50 winners... several of those "winners"
were from his 15-20 person workshops.
.
.
.
Another irony... I never "got" nor even LIKED this prof's poetry --
though he was considered quite good and had a fair amount of
professionally-published success. So not being able to relate
to it is no real indicator of whether poetry is good or not.
.
.
.
.
.
BTW... before anyone might ask... no offense, but no thank you...
I don't wish to critique your poetry.
.
.
.
Not being in a workshop/classroom setting, I'd very likely just
tell you that it's got a good beat and you can dance to it.
.
.
.
.
.
I DO HIGHLY recommend that you try to get into a local
poetry workshop of some sort -- either at a college or library
or elsewhere -- and view it in the context of this post -- if
it's just "confirmation" of your "status" as a wonderful poet...
look for another one (or try to redirect/improve the one you're in).
.
.
.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. I am not currently writing, not sure that I ever will again. Just thought I should say it

I am not asking advice for myself although I am sure that is good advice (for anyone) in general.

I have written some stuff but, it is for my eyes and a few private individuals only.

My stuff will never be for public consumption.

[rrneck]

6. The test of time.

If you can return to it and draw from it over and over, that's a sure sign. If people are reading it five hundred years from now, it's great poetry.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. I tend to agree with this in a lot things ...to stand the test of time ---

a timeless quality.

[Haole Girl]

7. This has been on my mind today, TA

:hug:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. hey, good to see you Haole Girl

:hug:

[Bucky]

12. You can also look for craft on the writer's part. A poem can be strong on mechanics....

but how appealing or relateable it is will always be a subjective standard. But a trained poetry critic can still tell if it's good.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. yes, the Mechanics of it ...

if the structure(?) is sound then it is good whether it appeals or not.

this leads me to another question though. need to think on this one, I think.

[Call Me Wesley]

17. Good poetry

relies on excellent observation. It's not a matter of you personally relate to it, otherwise, poetry could be just lines like found in diaries:

'Alone tonight.
One candle burns
but does not warm me.

And the door
is closed.'

Or (I always have fun with these ...)

'Avast a sky
black-green-blueish pink
falling upon me,

but my arms outstretched
toward
the sun.

Such warmth on my skin
I bathe in it
basal cell carcinoma.

Ooops.'

It's probably not about you. It's about what's condensed to something not you alone, but everyone can relate to. Like:


What’s Bad

by Gottfried Benn

Not reading English,
and hearing about a new English thriller
that hasn’t been translated.

Seeing a cold beer when it’s hot out,
and not being able to afford it.

Having an idea
that you can’t encapsulate in a line of Hölderlin,
the way the professors do.

Hearing the waves beat against the shore on holiday at night,
and telling yourself it’s what they always do.

Very bad: being invited out,
when your own room at home is quieter,
the coffee is better,
and you don’t have to make small talk.

And worst of all:
not to die in summer,
when the days are long
and the earth yields easily to the spade.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. maybe so, CMW

maybe so.

"excellent observation" to my mind, makes me see something in a way I have not seen before.

[tigereye]

18. wonderful imagery, makes you go OH! or evokes feelings, thoughtful or

simply beautiful and elegant lines. Those are my conditions, but YMMV. :D

Poetry comes in many shapes and sizes and I think judging it is very subjective.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. hmmm...

Poetry comes in many shapes and sizes and I think judging it is very subjective.

I think I agree however, I also think that Bucky makes a good point, too.

The Test of Time, I think is also a good judge.

:shrug:

[Sky Masterson]

23. I write more poetry than I read

and my poetry is crap 98% of the time. Even my purposely bad ones are bad. :P

I figure that almost anything scribed artistically(Even if it's bloody awful) is good to someone,
so who am I to judge.:)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

30. hey you -

I like your bad poetry :D

:loveya: :hug: :hi:

[nolabear]

25. Well, I guess I'll weigh in. I think that many things are subjective, but the art of poetry

includes giving the reader or listener the astonishing experience of feeling as if he is discovering something in the poem that comes from within himself. Poetry should resonate, it should create a feeling that the poet has been eavesdropping on one's thoughts or experiences in some way. It might be the whole poem or just a tiny piece, a metaphor, a moment of incredible clarity.

The rest is form and voice, and peoples' opinions and tastes differ. Personally, when I write I like to have the form echo the substance or topic of the poem. When my work has a rather strong Southern feel, which much of it does, I use repetition and informal language and storytelling techniques. If I'm reaching for a more esoteric concept I might strip things way down, go for the "Gong!" of recognition. That's the essence of good Haiku. I like rhyme and meter but it's easy to screw up and let that predominate rather than be the vehicle for the concept. I adore villanelles and pantoums, but again the form is so marvelous that you have to be a damned good poet to make them seamless. It's a great challenge!

And I second MFM's advice re finding GOOD critique. That's an art too.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

26. I repeat: This is NOT about me or my writing.

If I were ever published it would be under a pen name. I definitely do not seek fame. ugh.

I think you are on to something about being "astonished".

[nolabear]

27. Noted. Sorry I misconstrued. I always figure I'm writing to a group!

Btw, there's nothing more humbling than thinking you're famous as a poet. Hah! Somebody will disabuse you of that notion in a hurry!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

29. heh. I guess I should realize that public forum is a group discussion.

I see another good reason for a pen name :D

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. in my opinion, a poem or art is supposed to inspire. if it doesnt

it may have failed.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. I need to think on this one ...

this can be powerful in both a positive and a negative way, I think.

[WinkyDink]

44. "Inspire" in what way(s)? I find "My Last Duchess" brilliant, but not exactly inspiring.

E.g.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. someone, however might find it inspiring to murder...much like others

have blamed Rap for rapes and kills.

Wouldn't you agree?

[gvstn]

31. I have never really appreciated poetry

So I guess I am of the school that it must say something to each individual reader. Of course, if this was actually true there would be very little "good" poetry. I guess I am not that deep and can handle one idea at a time.

My taste goes to simple poems:

This Is Just To Say

I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox

and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast.

Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold.

--William Carlos Williams

or

The Heart

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
Who, squatting upon the ground,
Held his heart in his hands,
And ate of it.

I said, "Is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter - bitter," he answered;
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart.

--Stephen Crane

[nolabear]

32. For someone who's never appreciated poetry

You have wonderful taste. Ever read Kenneth Koch's reply to Wm Carlos Wms?

Variations On A Theme By William Carlos Williams



1
I chopped down the house that you had been saving to live in next summer.
I am sorry, but it was morning, and I had nothing to do
and its wooden beams were so inviting.

2
We laughed at the hollyhocks together
and then I sprayed them with lye.
Forgive me. I simply do not know what I am doing.

3
I gave away the money that you had been saving to live on for the
next ten years.
The man who asked for it was shabby
and the firm March wind on the porch was so juicy and cold.

4
Last evening we went dancing and I broke your leg.
Forgive me. I was clumsy and
I wanted you here in the wards, where I am the doctor!

[gvstn]

33. I like it!

Very clever! The phrasing is perfect.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. that is awesome!

I love to do this kind of thing ... paraphrase the original. thanks for posting this. :)

[WinkyDink]

45. I think you mean "deceptively simple". ;-)

[gmoney]

34. If it rhymes "dance" with "romance", it probably isn't.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. but,but, but, I love this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNsmF9JTpuI

[gmoney]

42. But then, there's this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4s2pLVXkXI

Swingtown... a good groove, but that sure as shit ain't great poetry.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

48. but, but, but ...

I am damn sure groovin'. :D thanks, man for that Blast from the Past :thumbsup:

[mcollins]

35. it either means something to you or not.

Like all art, it is more on the observer than the artist to place value on the piece. My wife doesn't like opera but likes country music, of all things. Is one better than the other?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. I like some opera and I like some country, so I can not say which is better

just that they are different. :shrug:

[Bunny]

36. I hate pretty much all poetry,

except for maybe In Flanders Fields by John McCrae or Val Joyce Kilmer's Trees. So it all sucks to me. But that's the subjectivity of art. :shrug:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. I like Flanders Field, too.

I like a lot of stuff but I think a lot of it sucks, too. :shrug:

[WinkyDink]

43. Do you "relate" to all other creative works you deem "good"? I don't "relate" to the Taj Mahal,

but I know it is spectacular.

"Sound and Sense."

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. no, I don't have to relate to all other creative works to "deem" them "good". -

Hence the question.

"Sound and Fury."