Question for vegetarians - and maybe meat eaters as well

[OriginalGeek]

I heard a kind of a neat story on NPR last night about a process being developed wherein meat is being produced in the lab. it's real meat grown by letting 2 meat cells reproduce just like they would in an animal's body but there is no animal involved. I'm not sciency enough to understand all the particulars but I just believe they mean what they say and they are on the way to having animal suffering-free meat. IT's still a long ways off since the biggest chunk so far is a pretty small dot of meat in a test tube but they say they are getting all the kinks worked out to make it mass-producible.

So the question is would that affect your vegetarian lifestyle? (Assuming they can make it taste good lol) I also assume they might be able to tweak the nutritional value of the lab meat.

I guess as a meat eater I would have to at least try it but would any of you?

I freely admit being uneducated on the subject of vegan/vegetarianism and all the different levels of it but I am aware that there are differences so please feel free to correct any assumptions you think I may have made. I'm here to learn.

THanks!

[Chan790]

1. Oh, this is the hornet's nest.

Basically, there is no consensus on the subject. Most of the V/V/AR community here can discuss it civilly...we all for the most part have known each other for years and we're not the most-judgmental group of veg*ns you're going to find to begin with. But...this...I've seen spark actual no-lie fistfights, impressive if you consider how many AR people are anti-violence. It's an issue of contention within most large organizations...our own little AR civil war. Every once a month it comes up on the PeTA Facebook page and quickly degrades to name-calling. (Note: PeTA is a fairly major funder of this research and has offered a prize to the first person or team that can do it in a mass-attainable sustainable cruelty-free way.)

Me? I'd try it (even if just to be able to say to omnis that it tastes like the real thing) but almost certainly not eat it out of habit. Most, in my impression, wouldn't try it but welcome it as better than killing animals to feed the carnivore cravings of the larger public. Some think the idea is abomination.

[OriginalGeek]

4. Wow I didn't know PeTA had a part in it

And I had NO idea that it was fist-fightily contentious! So I sincerely apologize to anyone who would be offended by me bringing this up.

That's how I learn.


I know a few "vegetarians" but I am not sure how or why they identify as such since they have no problem eating fish and eggs and cheese and I never feel comfortable enough to ask them about it - we aren't that close - I just know them and know they identify as such.

So I had to wonder if being a successful vegan meant that you had to be more concerned with the well-being of living creatures than with the health benefits of it. That may be my ignorance showing though.

And I had to wonder if "cruelty-free" meat meant that they might try meat again...here I am assuming most vegans didn't start out that way and wonder if they miss meat...(OK, even as I wrote that I thought wait, there are probably a billion or so vegans in India who have never tried meat...so yeah, I guess I am speaking form a USA-centric POV.)

Thank you for your reply!

[flvegan]

8. Chan790 hangs with a rough crowd of vegans.

If your Hell's Vegans biker leathers touch the ground in a fight, they break your legs.

[OriginalGeek]

9. I bet I'd like to party

with them cowlessboys.

[Chan790]

13. No, these were vegetarians...

and you know the type. The guy who is vegetarian but wearing brand-new leather sneakers and looks like his conversion occurred in the last 24 hours and only lasts as long as this girlfriend vs. the super-militant vegetarian who wants to be belligerent but isn't militant enough to give up milk. (This one often wants to claim "I'm vegan, except..." --Dude, you're not vegan; you're not even trying to be.)

Posers.

I'm a vegetarian but I'm not getting preachy or being cafeteria about it. I do as much as I can and I don't sweat what I can't.

[flvegan]

14. LOL!

I know the type.

[Duer 157099]

2. As a meat-eater as well as someone who understands the sciency stuff

I wouldn't object to eating this, if it tasted ok and I fully understood how it was made.

The real problem that I see with this strategy is that it is extremely expensive to grow cells in a petri dish. I can't imagine it ever being less expensive than just having a cow that can eat a field of grass. Nature is very efficient.

On the other hand, cells in culture (at the basic level, that's all this is, cells; probably muscle cells but they'd need to throw in some fat cells too, for flavor) can be very strictly controlled: which growth factors they get exposed to, which stress-related factors they DON'T get exposed to, etc so that in theory, you might be able to end up with a really healthy product. But again, very expensive. And taste/texture? Who knows, yet.

[OriginalGeek]

5. Yeah I wonder about the cost too

Another assumption of mine is that they wouldn't be pursuing it unless they thought they could eventually deliver it economically. ANd I got no idea about the taste - how do they introduce flavor into the meat? Kobe beef is fed a very specific diet to get it's acclaimed flavor (I've never had it so I don't know if it's all it's cracked up to be) but they obviously can't feed grass and beer to the test tube...

Thank you too!

[pokerfan]

3. read that earlier on the friendly atheist blog

I'm not a vegetarian but was curious. His thoughts:

My initial reaction was to say no. I avoid meat for more reasons than simply the ethics behind it. For one, I dislike the smell of it — If I’m out for breakfast and I smell bacon strips, it’s not a pleasant scent. I even stay away from the deli sections of grocery stores for the same reason. I also think the taste would be awful since it’d be my first time eating it. (Probably the same reason I think beer tastes awful even though I’ve never had more than a sip or two.)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/08/31/vegetarians-would-you-eat-meat-if-animals-didnt-have-to-die-for-it

[OriginalGeek]

6. Lol beer tasted pretty bad my first time too

but I have REALLY gotten over that...

Thanks for the link to that blog - reminded me to check back there - I have seen it before a long time ago but forgotten to read it lately. (Freakin internet is HUGE!)

edit~ but looking through the comments I am starting to see how quickly this type of discussion can devolve...

[pokerfan]

11. Do you have a feed reader?

It's a lot more convenient than remembering to visit sites to see if anything is new. You never miss an article -- for example, I subscribe Atheist Eve and she only puts out a comic once a month but I never miss it because when a new one is released it just pops up in my Google Reader.

Yeah, beer tasted pretty bad to me too back when. These days, I only drink about once a month (special occassions with friends) and I've noticed that that malty beer taste has returned so I tend to drink wine.

[OriginalGeek]

30. Ya know what?

lol, I am in front of a computer all day at work and all night at home and I have never gotten around to setting up a good RSS feed thingy. There's that one that comes with Win7 on the desktop gadgets but all it gets is the msnbc feed and I generally ignore it. I need to get on that.

[pokerfan]

34. I'm happy with Google Reader

Had been using MyYahoo for years but they had been getting flaky lately.

[OriginalGeek]

35. thanks - checking it out now...

[pokerfan]

36. one more thing

Page2RSS is a service that helps you follow web sites that do not publish feeds. It will check any web page for updates and deliver them to your favorite RSS reader:
http://page2rss.com

The RSS search engine will help you discover the most popular feeds on the web around your favorite topics:
http://ctrlq.org

Getting Started with Google Reader:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvKFP67GwSY

[flvegan]

7. As a vegan

Would it affect a veg*n lifestyle? Well, by definition...yes. It is technically an animal product known as meat, albeit just a couple of cells. People cling to labels too much. It comes down to the reason behind why someone is a veg*n to begin with, that's all.

If someone is going to choose to eat "meat" as an omnivore or as a vegetarian* then it should be the result of the least cruel method humanly possible. This seems like that might be it if the white coats can ever pull it off. If it alleviates the broad suffering of the animals and our environment, then get to it doc!

edited for clarity

[alsame]

10. I wouldn't eat it, I'm a vegetarian. I don't like the taste or texture

of meat, so I wouldn't even be tempted.

[JanMichael]

12. Tough call. I'm a vegetarian that consumes eggs, cheese and milk.

And shrimp and oysters but no other fish. That's a weird proclivity on my part as I see shrimp and oysters like I might see bugs which makes most people sick to contemplate but whatever.

With the meat that isn't directly from a slaughtered mammal I just don't know...I mean I like the fake Quorn products and some fake burgers as well as fake bacon but the thought of the texture and smell of a realish steak sort of makes me queasy.

I suppose I might give in and try it though if its creation could eventually slow down or even stop the horrific treatment of cows and chickens (specifically. plus the freeing up of farmland for grains and veggies instead of water and resource killing cattle). That's the main reason I've stayed off meat for 6 or so years. Factory farming is so vile that I simply cant abide by it.

[OriginalGeek]

32. I think I'm headed that way

"Factory farming is so vile that I simply cant abide by it."

The more I hear about it the more it grosses me out. But I can't seem to make the leap from "Mmmmmm steak..." to "NO never!"

I am definitely conflicted though. I worry about what I would eat though...There just aren't that many vegetables I really like. And the ones I do like I wouldn't all the time....

that's pretty funny about the shrimp and oysters. I've always thought they were the bugs of the sea too but it never factored into why I eat them...what about crawdads? My cajun friends call them mudbugs. And can whip up some beautiful crawfish etouffe.

[LeftyMom]

15. It would still be an animal product. So no.

1. Because those cells would initially come from an animal there would still be an exploitation and suffering issue.

2. Any tweaking aside, animal products are enormously unhealthy. I like my risks of cancer and heart disease as low as possible, which means I don't eat animal tissues and secretions.

3. Because I don't eat animal products and haven't for many years, my digestion is not well adapted to them. Even if a magic steak got winked into existence or fried chicken fell like rain, eating it would mean some discomfort on my part. Totally not worth it.

4. Ultimately I think the idea (and PETA's funding offer) communicates that veg/ns are deprived in some way or want some kind of loophole meat. I have plenty of food options, including savory, fatty or meat-like foods, that are entirely plant-based. I really don't need or even want lab-grown meat.

[flvegan]

16. Nazi.

[LeftyMom]

18. Vegan fight!

Don't make me tickle you. I'll do it.

[JanMichael]

17. I think you might be right about digestion.

Even a cruelty free slab of steak would probably wreck my insides.

Not 100% sure that the initial cell extractions (because after the initial extractions could it become self sustaining?) would be extreme enough or even remotely as bad to animal or the environment as factory farming is now though.

[LeftyMom]

19. I can't imagine they would be, but I guess it would depend to some degree on scale.

As a practical matter I really can't see the process being economical as long as it had to compete with a heavily subsidized meat industry.

[undeterred]

20. Fairly new vegetarian here

The concept of meat being made in the lab is a bit freaky to me. It does avoid the ethical problem of violence though.

Funny thing, tonight I was going to have some salmon that I got at the food pantry. They always try to give you meat, and I usually ask for fish and cook it for my dog because he loves it. Well, I cooked two salmon patties that were pre-stuffed with crabmeat and rice. It smelled wonderful. This would have been the first time in 15 months that I've had something that wasn't vegetarian.

I took one bite and became completely nauseous. I really don't know why. It smelled great and I was really hungry. I had some veggies and rice instead.

So that was that. The dog got to eat both of the salmon patties and he was delighted. He was jumping up and down and gave me lots of kisses. I think I am doing right by him.

Of course, he would eat a chipmunk if he caught one.

Food and taste are complicated.

[RebelOne]

21. I have been a vegetarian for 10 years,

but I still have a craving for a big, juicy steak I would try try the lab-produced meat. At least, no animal was killed for it. I eat eggs and dairy, but also the animals did not have to die for the eggs, cheese or milk.

[kwassa]

22. I have no meat cravings, real or lab-induced.

I've become a mostly vegan eater not for philosophical reasons, but to reduce the saturated fat in my diet after a heart attack.

All saturated fat comes from animals or animal by-products like milk and cheese. I do eat fish, but rarely, but fish oil is very goood for us.

Anyways, I crave good fresh vegetables and fruits, and the cool and delicious dishes that can be made from them.

I found that as my diet changed, what I craved to eat changed, too. I simply have no interest in meat anymore.

[Avalux]

23. I wouldn't eat lab grown meat, whether vegetarian or not. Creepy. n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

24. Comments so far are pretty much what I expected to see...

(sans fistfights so far, thank the gods)

Presumably, if this becomes an industrial process, it will be priced at or lower than "traditional" meat. Who knows-- by then meat we now eat may become uncommercial due to lack of farmland for fodder. Its nutritional value, texture, flavor, and other things about it should eventually be "adjustable" so it might be really, really good-- think healthy Kobe beef, bacon, or bratwurst. Yum!

Seems like if you don't like meat, or deem it unhealthy under any circumstances, this stuff would not be for you. If you primarily object to the ethics of raising and/or eating animals, this stuff might be for you. If you have a problem with frankenfoods, you may or may not try it depending on how you see it in the grand scheme of things.

(There are, of course, those who object to rational choice and would prefer a fistfight.)

[tblue]

25. No meat sounds good to me, but lab meat sounds gross.

I like the idea of meat eaters eating it though. Really! It's much better for the planet if they cut back even once a week.

[quakerboy]

26. Jumping in as a carnivore

not quite exclusively, but closer than I would have ever thought possible when I was a kid. Atkins for just shy of 2 years, so lots of meat, and more green veg than I would have ever expected my adult self to eat. And not much else.

Speaking for myself, I would almost certainty try it. My 2 main problems with meat are the treatment of animals and the environmental impact. My 2 main pro's on meat are it is absolutely delicious and it seems to be the only thing I have ever tried that lead to significant and sustained weight loss.

If they can make a product with the pro's of meat and without one or both of the problems, and provide it at a reasonable cost, as a carnivore, I am on board. I would definitely try it.

That said, I would have some concerns. I am somewhat familiar with the things that can go wrong in a lab. I would be far more likely to make regular use of such a product if I know it has had to go through the testing of some other country with higher food safety standards than ours. I would be far more likely to eat it if there is a clear and opaque history to the product, and if I can personally look into the science going into its making. I don't trust most of the companies that provide our food to ensure its a safe product.

[Chan790]

29. Regarding diet and ethics, I have suggestions.

Have you ever tried seitan? It's a dense protein made from wheat (not a good choice if you have celiac though, it's the very things that make them ill) specifically the gluten, bran and proteins of the wheat; it's what's left if you wash away all (or at-least 95%) the carbohydrates from wheat flour. I've been experimenting with other high-protein grain flours such as kamut and oat to see what results I can get.*

Basically, it has the mouthfeel and chewiness of beef, usually about 1/2 the kCal of an equal weight of lean meats (this is going to depend what you cook it in, it's a sponge)...and it basically tastes like whatever you cook it in. Most people who make it from-scratch at home have their closely-kept-secret cooking-broth recipe. Generally though, the base of that broth is vegetable stock, mushrooms (to impart umami...the taste sensation of generally thought of as "meaty") and salt...I add onions, Bragg's Liquid Aminos and peppercorns for "savory". Typically, it's used in strips or chunks as a replacement for dark-meat poultry or "white" meats (pork, mutton, lamb, veal) but I've seen it used in traditionally "beefier" usages as-well, often as "vegan (faux-)cheese** steak". It basically presents neither of the problems of meat and used right can fulfill both of the benefits you said you were looking for. See if you can find it in the supermarket to try it, if you like it I'd learn to make it at home, it's not difficult (but it does take an hour or so and doesn't preserve well unless you vac-seal it. It can't be frozen.) and the homemade to commercial markup is significant...over 500%. I'm pretty certain that it's Atkins friendly as it has less carbs than your green vegetables typically.

Another one to look into is Textured Vegetable Protein (TVP) (sometimes called Textured Soy Flour(TSF). Same thing, TVP is a trademark of ADM.) This is a dried flake-like material that has a texture and flavor when combined with boiling water not unlike smallish flecks of ground meat. (except low cal and zero fat. It also has nearly no nutritional value whatsoever though.) In fact that was its initial purpose, it was invented as a "stretching" material for ground meat for use in things like chili, jarred meat-sauces for pasta, and cheap burger patties because it holds up to canning, shipping, freezing and storage as-well or better than ground chuck and costs pennies per pound. (you're going to pay $2-$3 though for a 1# dried bag that yields maybe 4# of moist product.) You'll never be able to make a meatloaf or patties entirely out of TVP but it's works great for anything you're using crumbles for, as a meat-stretcher or toss it into soups (I do this with canned Minestrone). Start off using it to stretch your ground meat usage, you'll find over time that you adjust the ratio to TVP to meat up...it tastes better and doesn't impart the greasiness of ground beef. (I think it has a higher carbohydrate content than the seitan but carries a negligible calorie load compared to hamburger.)

*-A celiac-friendly seitan would be animal-friendly, a humanitarian boon (the spoilage rate at room temp or higher is much lower than meat making it ideal for food programs or as a food-material that can be produced locally in global rural poor areas (like most of Somalia) from local crops cheaply with a lower consumption of water and land resources.) and commercially-viable. (People get weird about the word "gluten"...they don't know what it is but they've heard it's bad...and it's very bad if your sensitive to it, but that's only ~3% of the population. If it was "oat-meat", I think it'd sell better.)

**-usually Daiya though any brand could be used or the cheese can be omitted.

[6000eliot]

27. I will never knowingly eat meat again for the rest of my life.

I don't care where it comes from.

[HappyMe]

28. No, I wouldn't eat it.

I'm thinking it would be hideously expensive. Also I don't think it would have much in the way of flavor and the texture would be weird.

[YankeyMCC]

31. Vegetarian here who was very much an avid meat eater most of my life

I choose to follow a vegetarian (nearly vegan) diet for health, environmental and compassionate reasons.

I did see this in an article several months ago but would have to learn more about the health and environmental impacts and how it would be produced before deciding.

I don't like to use arguments like "don't waste time on that research or endeavor for the sake of another" However, I'm much more interested in efforts to better understand nutrition, lower impact agriculture and getting healthy food to everyone than what seems like a bit of a gimick or at least just a "product" some corporation thinks will make them a lot of money if they can use or market it correctly.

[OriginalGeek]

33. "...efforts to better understand nutrition,..."

Good Flying Spaghetti Monster I am with you there. I can't even count the number of times I have tried to just do simple research and find out what is healthy for me to eat. In some places nearly anything I get in a grocery store is the devil and in other places it's just tree-hugging hippies trying to scare me away from my human birth-right. All I fucking want o know is what can I eat that I like and won't confilct with what the doctor recently told me about my borderline diabetes problem. (I had really high blood sugar and a strong family history of diabetes so I was put on Metformin and I stopped drinking any carbonated beverages and quit drinking cream or sugar in my Tea and coffee. I ain't giving up beer though. I don't drink it every day or even every weekend and I rarely have more than 2 or 3 but I like expensive big beers so I don't need a lot.)(And my sugar has come down from the 200 range to the 110~120 range)

There are so many wide ranging opinions and the internet is a swarming vulgar mass of virulent anti-thisses and anti-thats that I just can't make heads or tails of most of it. I like to think I'm pretty smart but I know I'm not a biologist and I'm certainly no nutritionist but there is simply now way everyone can be right yet everyone is convinced they are (lol, sounds very like the arguments i had with myself when I first started being skeptical of organised religion).

Some days I just say Fuck It and open a can of Beefaroni and a tube of Ritz crackers.

[LaurenG]

37. I don't think I could make myself eat it

I might change my mind if it were the last food on earth though.