Seperation of Church and State

[Hippo_Tron]

I thought I'd post my opinions on this subject with the recent thing with the ten commandments at the courthouse. One, could they possibly be anymore nitpicky? I mean come on it's a piece of stone, if you're a offended by it don't look at it. Then there's the whole prayer in schools thing. Okay so teachers shouldn't be allowed to lead prayers that is the government establishing a national religion. But why shouldn't students be allowed to prey by themselves? Isn't banning that infringing on their freedom to practice religion? And moments of silence... They are observed out of respect for dead people! They have absolutely nothing to do with religion... I don't have a problem with people being activists and seeking legal action to end injustices but I hardly see how these are injustices especially since they really aren't harming anyone.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. Students are allowed to pray on their own.

[sandnsea]

2. The Constitution or the Bible?

Why don't Courthouses ever post the Bill of Rights on their Courthouses? Afraid they might remind people this is a country founded on law and individual rights, not religion?

Are we a nation of the Constitution or the Bible, people need to decide.

[atreides1]

3. Religion should be Taught at Home and at Church

You are right it's just a piece of stone, and anyone who prays before it as they have threatened to do, is according to the Bible, an idolater. Which is in direct violation of one of the Commandments.

The only problem is the location of this monument is right in the
middle of the floor, to avoid looking at it you will have to close
your eyes before you enter the building.

No it's not infringing on their freedom to practice their religion,
if they have to practice so much then they must not be very good at
it. Seriously though, there is no infringement, public school is not
the place to worship.

Well if Christian children can pray by themselves then Muslim children must be allowed to pray at least three times a day while they
are in school. This will of course hold up the class, thus creating
longer school days. Longer school days cost more money, can you afford
a higher property tax to help pay for the added expense.

Now most people I know don't have a problem with a moment of silence.
It is a way that all the children in a class can acknowledge the deity
that they pray to, without pushing it on one another.

The harm is if we start to acknowledge Christian idols, then we are
saying that this is a Christian Nation. And that was never the intent
of the Founders.

Religion should be taught in 2 places, the home and the church. School
is a place for learning, not for a new religious war.

[cosmicaug]

7. Public school is more accomodating to religion than you seem to think

Actually, public school is more accomodating to religion than you seem to think. For instance, ZORACH v. CLAUSON establishes that children can be released during school hours, at the request of parents, for religious instruction (as long as the instruction does not take place in the public school). The problem arises when the religious instruction (or the calls to prayer, or the moments of silence, etc.) happens in the public school. In the case of prayer, students can pray all they want as long as it's not disrupting the class. The schools setting aside a moment for prayer, on the other hand, would be illegal. In the case of religions which rigidly prescribe prayer at certain times, I wouldn't be surprised if accomodation was considered perfectly O.K. (it's when the teacher or the administration get involved in such things that we run into serious trouble with the First Amendment). There are in all of this, naturally, differences of opinion regarding where exactly the line should be drawn.

[cosmicaug]

4. Seperation of Church and State

I thought I'd post my opinions on this subject with the recent thing with the ten commandments at the courthouse. One, could they possibly be anymore nitpicky?

Translation: Church state separationists are correct in this respect but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

I mean come on it's a piece of stone, if you're a offended by it don't look at it.

It's an endorsement of a particular religion or set of religions. This is constitutionally prohibited (unless you buy into the revisionist fundy interpretation of the First Amendment an its historical context).

Then there's the whole prayer in schools thing. Okay so teachers shouldn't be allowed to lead prayers that is the government establishing a national religion.

Exactly.

But why shouldn't students be allowed to prey by themselves?

They should be allowed to pray and they are allowed to pray.

Isn't banning that infringing on their freedom to practice religion?

It would be if that were the case.

And moments of silence...

That's a little fuzzier.

They are observed out of respect for dead people!

No one is proposing we stop moments of silence out of respect for dead people, to my knowledge.

They have absolutely nothing to do with religion...

In the context of the school prayer debate that is an awfully naïve statement to make.

I don't have a problem with people being activists and seeking legal action to end injustices but I hardly see how these are injustices especially since they really aren't harming anyone.

Even if I agreed with that assessment, there's always that slippery slope give an inch take a mile thing.

[PROUDNWLIBERAL]

5. Jefferson

Jefferson----"wall of separation" That is: Religion and the State will be separated. I shall trust Jefferson on this one, not a Right-wing Bible pounder from Alabama.

[Rainydaze]

6. Try using an analogy:

Would it be proper to rub butter on a stone lingham in order to grant the wisdom to those inside to make the correct choices regarding life and death?

Would it be proper to spin a prayer wheel in kharmic hope that what comes around, goes around?

Same thing really, the placing of the 10 commandments violates the church and state separation; could you see any of the above happening or would you think it grotesque? When the 10 commandments are placed in a courthouse they make an understood assumption. That the universal justice is Judeo-Christian justice. That's why I believe that they shouldn't be posted.

[cosmicaug]

9. Ashcroft

Would it be proper to rub butter on a stone lingham in order to grant the wisdom to those inside to make the correct choices regarding life and death?

Heck, never mind the First Amendment. If you did that, Ashcroft would try to put your ass in jail for violating some comunity's decency standards.

[Birthmark]

8. You need to rethink your position.

The Ten Commandents are a religious, not legal, icon. As an atheist, I wouldn't be very comfortable with a judicial system that thought that "Love the Lord, thy God..." was essential. It's hardly nitpicking.

Student prayer is completely legal in school, AFAIK.

Moments of silence are stupid, but I don't object in any strenuous way, unless I have reason to suspect that it is an attempt to sneak prayer into the school. Even then, my objection is more for the sake of honesty rather than separation of church and state.