Can someone explain the current ruckus?

[RainDog]

As someone just logging in and seeing posts like...canned or mre... :wtf: (I guess I think that's a little extreme, but what do I know?)

From what I can tell in today's econ news, the stock markets in Europe and Asia are falling big time. This is because.... (because investors have lost faith in the U.S. economy? Because Boy George offers another idiotic tax cut rather than face reality?) --which, btw, Reagan had to do - he HAD TO raise taxes in his second term b/c the economy was so shitty. According to TPM, iifc. Or maybe it was Washington Monthly --

anyway, the stock markets are over-valued anyway and need a correction, at least in the U.S. But with news of recession and war-mongering among the neo-cons, the fear is that if people start taking profits and getting out of some areas of the market this will create a herd effect, along with triggering automatic sells?

and since the housing bubble has seriously damaged some banks and homeowners, the mood is hunker down and see what happens?

and since the U.S. govt. has been remiss in addressing the crimes of this current administration, and since this current administration has shown it is willing to lie to go to war, Europe and Asia aren't so thrilled about long-term prospects for U.S. markets? Or are the European and Asian investors getting out of the mkt and buying up properties, etc. in America that are at bargain basement sort of prices?

I'm not saying any of this is true, I'm asking if any of them are true. (but the bit about Reagan and taxes is true.)

Maybe it's my already formed opinion, but does it make sense that other nations would try to be the first to unload some of their increasingly worthless dollars because of a basic mistrust in the current govt's ability to handle an economic crisis? (I'm also talking about congress, not just the executive. Could it be a matter of a lost of faith in this economy because Bush gets away with every illegal move he makes?

anyone have a grand unified theory on this one, or even some insight here and there that does not include the illuminati, skull and bones, and/or the new world order?

[Atman]

1. When you're in Bush's 1%, it's a "market correction."

When your retirement fund is wrapped up in an IRA which is on the verge of being wiped out completely, it's a bit more serious.

The reason Bush won't raise taxes, the reason he drained the treasury and gave it to his buddies in the first place, is so that they'd have the wherewithal to withstand a long, protracted economic collapse, the very collapse he and Grover and the neocons set into motion in order to bring about the profound societal restructuring they want and the elimination of FDR-era policies. When all the money is gone, it won't matter how much you want to help the sick or the homeless...you won't be able to. The programs will die. Or, to put it another way, they'll "drown in a bathtub." Exactly as planned.

.

[RainDog]

3. so Grover should be careful about what he wishes for?

cause it could come back on him? -- as in pissed off poor people who don't have much of anything to lose?

(or maybe that's just my fantasy)

[Atman]

4. The pissed off poor people won't be sleeping on his doorstep.

He, and the rest of Bush's Base, will be safely behind their compound walls, sipping champaign and counting their money...er, OUR money. It simply won't impact their lives at all. That was the point I was making in my previous post. They WANTED this collapse, which is why they made sure their bank accounts were stuffed to the gills before it came. It's why Bush has "inexplicably" refused to raise any taxes to pay for the enormous debt he has incurred. He WANTED the debt. In fact, he REQUIRED IT in order to bring about the neocon vision of a New World Odor.

.

[RainDog]

7. yeah, I get it

but I also know about the causes of the French Revolution, and that famine or extreme hardship can make you do amazing things, even to people who take the air in Versailles. Even to the point of regicide, because the old order (which is what this really is...nothing new with greed and hubris or attempts to have empires who divide the world into spheres of influence. If you've got nothing to lose, who cares if you're one of a thousand or fifty thousand who gets shot while breaching the walls and drowning Grover in his bathtub?

Those who didn't make it become martyrs and those who did make it become heroes.

Everyone knows, also, the history of the U.S. and the bonus army, etc. If the new MacArthur comes in to break up a demonstration, I'd bet people would be ready for that. aux barricades! How many Iraq occupation veterans would be willing to take some payment in hide if their families starve?

If the fuckers in the Bush administration are stupid enough to think there will be no blowback for their radical economic policies, then that's just another example of how ignorant they are of reality and history. There are already soooo many people who absolutely hate the current powers-that-be, there will also be a tipping point, at which time people will regard their lives as secondary to their children's futures.

[Warpy]

10. It's not all Stupid, you know

These policies that shoveled money at the wealthy while stiffing people who work for a living started with Reagan, were not corrected by Clinton during the first 2 years he had a Democratic Congress, and have simply come to full fruition during this administration.

It's only business as usual, and any candidate who offers more of the same should be rejected.

[RainDog]

11. yeah, I know

but stupid refuses to change his policies when it is obvious to everyone that they are failures. and his war is costing big $$. -- again, Reagan had to accept reality eventually. Clinton picked on the poor more than anyone, plus he had the dotcom boom to keep the economy going.

Bush has nothing.

[BeHereNow]

17. G R E A T summary!

And yes, it is happening EXACTLY as planned.
BHN

[CountAllVotes]

2. another piece of this ...

We are living in a global economy. I was watching the program "Out of Ireland" last week. A man there was trying to sell his house. He had a sign, "HOUSE FOR SALE - 1/2 PRICE" in front of it. They do not have fixed rate mortgages in Ireland; only ARMS. A total credit economy is behind the "Celtic Tiger" so to speak.

This is just one of many other examples that can be found throughout the EU and the Asian markets as well where the Chinese are known to invest their entire paychecks in the stock market. :scared:

How can we here in the USA be so very arrogant as to blame this global problem strictly on the USA? It is global, not local. It is aka "GREED" at it's finest and we haven't seen the end of it yet nor its existence en mass all over the world.

How bad will it get? No one knows yet.

[Atman]

5. Story in the Hartford Courant yesterday said housing is much worse than it seems

In CT, at least, buyers are resorting to paying all the legal fees and closing fees associated with selling their homes. So, if you have $5000 in closing costs being refunded at sale, the ORIGINAL selling price is recorded in the books, even though that price was actually $5000 less. They're saying that housing prices have actually fallen much more than the market indicates, but the fact is being hidden because of the accounting procedures.

.

[CountAllVotes]

6. in Ireland and other parts of the EU

there are apparently no "buyers". I was there in 2005 and was shocked by the price of the crappiest home (like $300,000+ euros for a dump).

There are now houses all over the Emerald Isle which are empty being the banks have taken them, no one can afford to buy one of them and now, the loan money is not there either as they too are "tapped out".

Seems Bernie Ahern is involved in some major corruption scams.

Seems people all over the world are involved in major corruption scams.

Alas, the cup of corruption hath overrun itself. There is no end in sight.

It ain't over until the Fat Lady Sings!

:dem:

[Atman]

8. Clinton, the GOP argued, set an example by getting a blow job.

Bush, by contrast, told the world that it was okay to lie and rip off everyone as long as you got yours. That's what it's all about.

.

[CountAllVotes]

9. yep, as I've been saying ...

They've been taken "lessons" from "us" and these "lessons" are not good ones to learn! :mad:

:dem:

[PassingFair]

18. It's not corruption...

if EVERYBODY'S doin' it!

:crazy:

It's only wrong to get caught
without a chair when the music
stops, I guess.

I *uckin HATE that game:

[RainDog]

12. arrogant?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x32962

the article from the other du thread notes that the current major sell off in the euro mkts was caused by a german bank that had to fess up to losses from the U.S. mortgage ponzi scheme. the U.S. has been the major player for years with the dollar as the default currency. when the dollar sneezes, the rest of the world gets the shivers.

[TalkingDog]

13. An incomplete yet patriotic primer on how your tax dollars are spent.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/74262
Our National Wealth. A finite natural resource.

Squandered by:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/halliburton200711
Mercenaries and War Profiteers


Aided by Government Accounting:

" The new report said that the federal budget deficit would have been 69 percent higher than the $162.8 billion reported two months ago if the government had used the same accounting methods as private companies. Under the accrual method of accounting, the deficit would have totaled $275.5 billion for the fiscal year ending Sept. 30."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BUDGET_DEFICIT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

and special interests like:




Which the "common" people think they can use for their own accounting:

Debt is the new American Dream
http://gothinkblog.com/?p=514

even though:



In part leading to:


and

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120061980722699349.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

But here's the fall back position:

"Bush needs the Saudis to charge us big bucks for oil. The Saudis can't lend the US Treasury and Citibank hundreds of billions of US dollars unless they first get these US dollars from the US. The high price of oil is, in effect, a tax levied by Bush but collected by the oil industry and the Gulf kingdoms to fund our multi-trillion dollar governmental and private debt-load. "

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/12210

I hope this helps.


My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[Lasher]

20. Great links!

I especially liked the first article you linked. Makes a lot of sense and it's easy to understand.

[gravity]

14. Everyone is just a clueless as you are

Investors are selling first, then asking question later.

The problem is that there is no immediate relief in the markets to give investors any confidence. Bernanke seems slow to cut rates and George Bush's economic stimulus package wasn't big enough to restore confidence. With this, there is much uncerainty in the markets for the near future, and Wallstreet hates uncertainty more than anything so they are pulling out.

Whether these price drops are justified or not is a completely different question. Irrational exuberance works both for bull and bear markets, and the move could be more psychological than anything. We won't really know until a year from now the impact of this economic crisis.

[Celebration]

15. Pure and simple

It is the collapse of credit, and our economy is built on credit. This is beginning to look more like a tradional, very bad recession to me. Probably all commodities will come down in price. Banks don't have money to lend because their balance sheets look like crap. Plus a lot of them are afraid to lend to each other. Assets that are based on mortgage backed securities have been put up as collateral for other loans, which have been put up for collateral for still other loans, and the whole Ponzi scheme could come tumbling down.

I predict Bernacke will try some major move before the markets open tomorrow, or perhaps the next day. Then we will see how the market reacts, short term. Long term he may not be able to help this much.

[RainDog]

21. You called the action today

3.5% cut in interest rates. they want us to spend -their- way out of this crisis. wonder if any of the people with too much mtg will be able to refinance and reduce their payments?

but does this mean we will be looking at inflation in 6-9 mos? hoping for some disposable income from the sinking middle class?

Or are banks too badly hit? -- to lend? Seems like we don't even know the half of how bad their bottom lines are now.

[Celebration]

22. One of the big problems

is the uncertainty. For some reason a lot of these banks have been able to carry some of this stuff off their balance sheet(??). Sound familiar? Please don't ask me how or why, but surely someone knows.

So people are just guessing how bad this is.

One thing that markets really don't like is uncertainty. Now it is a bunch of people just kind of scrambling around in the dark.

The thing is, at this point people have nowhere to put there money to get any kind of return.

I heard two technical analysts of Fast Money today say choose between gold and cash. Not that they were gold bugs, particularly, just thought it would outperform the stock market, at least short term.

Things were looking better today until the Apple estimates after the bell.

[sendero]

16. I for one..

.... do not buy the "they did it on purpose" argument. They did it because they are stupid. This debacle is going to take Republicans out of the halls of power for a very long time.

People can brush off pointless wars, but they have a long memory when it comes to things economic. And there is no way the Pukes can pin this on Democrats. This is 100% Republican grown, and people know it.

[PassingFair]

19. I for two!

I don't know if "it" was planned or not.

But I let everyone know that 'pukes are
110% RESPONSIBLE.

Don't let them EVEN START bullshitting
about OUR candidates!

4 or more years more of Republican rule?
We might as well hang up the "CLOSED" sign
on the country NOW!