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A Second Mortgage Disaster On The Horizon? Alt-A and Option-ARM mortgages - from 60 Minutes

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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 03:48 PM
Original message
A Second Mortgage Disaster On The Horizon? Alt-A and Option-ARM mortgages - from 60 Minutes
Well, buckaroos, you know how with a tidal wave there isn't just one. After the first wave you have a couple more to follow you gotta watch out for. Well, it's sorta like that with the "Crazy Mortgage" Market - the collapse of which we have been going through.. "That's ..NOT.. all, folks". THere is more to come.

MOrtgage lenders also wrote a lot of mortgages with very low rates in the first few years. But after a few years the interest rate balloons up which can double the monthly payment.

from 60 Minutes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/12/60minutes/main4666112.shtml?source=mostpop_story

~~
~~

"We had the greatest asset bubble in history and now that bubble is bursting. The single biggest piece of the bubble is the U.S. mortgage market and we're probably about halfway through the unwinding and bursting of the bubble," Tilson explains. "It may seem like all the carnage out there, we must be almost finished. But there's still a lot of pain to come in terms of write-downs and losses that have yet to be recognized."

~~
~~

The trouble now is that the insanity didn't end with sub-primes. There were two other kinds of exotic mortgages that became popular, called "Alt-A" and "option ARM." The option ARMs, in particular, lured borrowers in with low initial interest rates - so-called teaser rates - sometimes as low as one percent. But after two, three or five years those rates "reset." They went up. And so did the monthly payment. A mortgage of $800 dollars a month could easily jump to $1,500.

"How big is the potential damage from the Alt As compared to what we just saw in the sub-primes?" Pelley asks.

"Well, the sub-prime is, was approaching $1 trillion, the Alt-A is about $1 trillion. And then you have option ARMs on top of that. That's probably another $500 billion to $600 billion on top of that," Tilson says.






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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. The banks and mortgage companies are doing it to themselves at this point.
They do not HAVE TO RAISE PAYMENTS. They can defer, or completely forgo raising mortgage payments. Just because they have a contract that says the interest rates reset at a certain time, doesn't mean that they have no other options.

They know at this point, that when rates reset and payments skyrocket, there's a very good chance that property will go into foreclosure. They are money ahead to keep the rates and payments down, and keep that property as a performing asset instead of a burden.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. As long as home prices continue to decline, it probably won't matter.
Alt A and option ARM loans were mostly given to people with good credit who could afford the payments. Many people took them in hopes that they could sell before or right around the time of the reset. Now that they are upside down, they can't afford to sell and there is no incentive for them to hang on, even if they can keep the lower rates.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well, based on your message I'd say "mad" in your name, is quite appropriate.
Alt As and ARMs were: "mostly given to people with good credit who could afford the payments." ?!?! REALLLLY? The higher payments????

The whole reason alt-As andd ARMs were created was to sign people who could NOT get the normal mortgages (for the property being sold). If some people were counting on flipping these properties, I'll bet they couldn't afford the adjusted rate payments coming up later, either. Anyway, that hardly matters. Whatever the statistics on this are, the message of the 60 Minutes report is that there is about a Trillion dollars of mortgage debt about to go into default. That's the part that causes (or should cause)the concern (regardless of what proportion of the total alt-As and ARMs they represent).

and...

"Now that they are upside down, they can't afford to sell and there is no incentive for them to hang on, even if they can keep the lower rates." ...NO big deal. they just go into default. NOT a PROBLEM!?!?!.

"Mad" could not be more appropriate.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. They won't keep the house...
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 12:36 AM by girl gone mad
even at the lower rate.

These aren't prime borrowers, but they aren't subprime, either. They were largely middle class borrowers. Many were gambling that prices would continue to go up and they could sell at a profit. They won't hang on to a declining asset, even with a low interest rate.

It's been predicted for years. If you want to insult people for holding this opinion, you've got your work cut out:

http://angrybear.blogspot.com
http://www.angryrenter.com
http://bankimplode.com
http://bigpicture.typepad.com
http://www.blownmortgage.com
http://www.boom2bust.com
http://bubbletracking.blogspot.com
http://bubblemeter.blogspot.com
http://macromarkets.com/csi_housing/MSA/detroit.asp
http://countrywide-foreclosures.blogspot.com
http://deflationland.blogspot.com
http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com
http://firedoglake.com
http://flippersintrouble.blogspot.com
http://blog.homegain.com
http://housebubble.com
http://housingblogwatch.blogspot.com
http://www.housingbubblebust.com
http://realestaterecord.blogspot.com
http://housingdoom.com
http://housingfear.blogspot.com
http://www.benengebreth.org/housingtracker
http://housing-watch.com/home.aspx?d=30'
http://www.housingwire.com
http://www.icantsellmyhouse.blogspot.com
http://paul.kedrosky.com
http://inventoryoverload.blogspot.com
http://www.irvinehousingblog.com
http://www.itulip.com
http://www.kunstler.com
http://westside-bubble.blogspot.com
http://lawrenceyunwatch.blogspot.com
http://www.longislandbubble.com
http://marinrealestatebubble.blogspot.com
http://ml-implode.com
http://www.moneyfiles.org/housingcrash21.html
http://www.mortgagefraud.org
http://mortgage.freedomblogging.com
http://www.mortgageledger.com
http://www.mortgagefit.com
http://www.nationalmortgagenews.com
http://reddit.com
http://njrereport.com
http://nychousingbubble.blogspot.com
http://www.papereconomy.com
http://thehousingbubble2.blogspot.com
http://patrick.net/wp
http://phoenixflippers.blogspot.com
http://www.piggington.com
http://portlandhousing.blogspot.com
http://www.ramenramenramen.net
http://realestateandhousing2.blogspot.com
http://www.therealestatebloggers.com
http://www.realestatedecline.com
http://sacramentolanding.blogspot.com
http://seattlebubble.blogspot.com
http://www.socalbubble.com
http://www.speculativebubble.com

Good luck!

edit: see if you can figure out which one is mine. :)
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. LOL. "want to insult people for holding this opinion"? Who is disagreeing with them?
Many people will be going into foreclosure. I THINK that was the point of my OP. That's what was reported by 60 Minutes. I want to encourage them (M$M) when they devote some time to important issues.


I am aware it has been brought up before 60 Minutes reported on it. i stated that along with the fact that nobody much cared when the issue was raised earlier.


yes, this has been covered on internet and not in general M$M.. that's the purpose of more focused sources - to be out ahead on their area of expertise or focus.

YOu seem to be a bit obsessed (mad?) about who brought this up first. Whoever reported it first I really don't care. The point is there is another wave of foreclosures coming and it will have significant human and economic costs to it. I want to recognize anyone in M$M for actaully reporting on an important issue (that doesn't mean I think it's the first time someone brought it up at all like, for sure).


By the way, some nice Search work you did there.

Don't get all freaked out now, but I'm not going to take time to see which link is yours - as I said,

this is not a contest to see who raised the issue first (well, at least not for me anyway.) - What's important is That there is a massive amount of foreclosures coming with massive human and economic costs.

Keep on searchin' and have a nice day. Really.






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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. You said I was "mad" for being of the opinion..
that these borrowers will walk away from their homes.

This has nothing to do with who "called it first".

I think it was entirely unnecessary to insult me for holding a popular, well-researched opinion.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. read my reply #8 which highlights your statements from #6 which were rediculous. I'm not going to
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 05:33 PM by JohnWxy
paste them again.

If you can't see that your comments in #5 made no sense as a response to my OP (which pointed out there were more defaults coming) - there was no disagreement there - then I cannot help you.



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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Slate covered this topic last April.
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 12:32 AM by girl gone mad
I think they did a good job explaining why borrowers will just send in their jingle mail and low rates won't make a bit of difference:

Over the next several months, we're going to be subjected to a chorus of hand-wringing about the moral turpitude of people who walk away from their mortgages and pronouncements like last month's warning from Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson that people should honor their mortgage obligations. The problem with finger-wagging on what you "should" or "ought" to do is that, when it comes to money, you're usually given the lecture only when it's in your interest to do the opposite. Certainly, that's the case for all the California homeowners who in the next year or two are going to find themselves with the choice of whether, faced with a huge new wave of interest resets and a historic decline in the value of their homes, they will simply walk away.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the California crash, these striking numbers are not the end. They are the beginning. (To give Paulson his due, he said that, too.) Which brings us to the other scary part of the California story: a coming wave of interest-rate resets in prime loans given to people with good credit that are just as bad, or worse, than we've seen in subprime.

The most common subprime loans were known as "2/28" in the industry: 30 years, including a two-year teaser rate before the interest rate rose. Now these loans have reset, and we're seeing the fallout.

But prime borrowers, too, got loans that started out with low payments; if you bought or refinanced your house in the last few years, it's not unlikely that you have one. With an "option ARM" loan you have the "option" (which most borrowers happily take) of paying less than the interest; the magic of "negative amortization." The loan grows until you hit a specified point—the exact point varies with the lender; with Countrywide, it'll come after about four and a half years—when the payment resets to close to twice where it was on Day 1.

Just two banks, Washington Mutual and Countrywide, wrote more than $300 billion worth of option ARMs in the three years from 2005 to 2007, concentrated in California. Others—IndyMac, Golden West (the creator of the option ARM, and now a part of Wachovia)—wrote many billions more. The really amazing thing is that the meltdown in California is already happening and virtually none of these loans have yet reset.

Option ARM loans were heavily marketed to upper-tier home buyers in California. It's hard to know how bad the option ARM crisis will be before it actually happens, but Moe Bedard, an advocate in Southern California who advises homeowners on foreclosure and blogs about the crisis at Loansafe.org says that the difference in the time until the rate rises is the main reason that upper-middle-class Orange County (now facing foreclosures at a rate merely twice the national average) hasn't yet been hit as badly as places like Riverside.

When those dominoes start falling next year, we may or may not have a subprime bailout plan, and the discussion will start about how to bail out this next tranche of borrowers. The bailout plans on the table now, such as the one put forward by Barney Frank (one of Congress' genuinely cogent financial minds), are reasonably based on the principle of bringing payments down to a point that homeowners can afford.

But where prices fall 40 percent to 60 percent, all that goes out the window. Why? Because in expensive locales like San Diego, tens of thousands of people with 100 percent loan-to-value mortgages and option ARMs are living in homes in which they have no equity and on which they owe a lot more than the house is worth.

In these places, accepting a government "bailout" that pays them, say, 90 percent of the value of the house to keep from foreclosing will be very tough for lenders, who (if the appraisers don't fudge the numbers) could be forced to take 36 cents or 45 cents on the dollar for their loans. On the other hand, any plan that makes them pay more if they can afford it is hugely disadvantageous for the borrowers, who have option ARMs about to reset and are much better off handing the keys to bank—and maybe even scooping up the foreclosed house down the street.

If you're one of the "homedebtors" (a fantastic neologism coined by the anonymous blogger IrvineRenter on the Irvine Housing Blog) in this position, you might start thinking very seriously about just how attached you are to the wisteria vine snaking over the basketball hoop on your garage. That's what a lot of other California borrowers will be doing.

The luckiest of those are the ones who used option ARMs to buy a house. For them, walking away is easy: Their loans are "nonrecourse," and the lenders can't go after them for more than the value of the house. The choice is harder for those who used the loans to refinance. The quirks of real-estate law regarding refi loans make it possible (though not necessarily easy) for lenders to try to get back more money even after taking the house.

If you think, however, that should make lenders a lot happier, forget it. LoanSafe's Bedard says that even in this group, most of the option ARM borrowers he talks to—some of them living in $800,000 houses—are already considering walking away from their deeply depreciated homes as soon as the rates reset.

Bet on this: Whatever moral qualms are being urged on borrowers to keep them from walking away from their mortgages, they'll count for a lot less than the economic reality facing borrowers whose homes have fallen in value by half. Lenders had no reservations about selling borrowers loans with rising payments that would be poisonous in a rising market. Now it seems borrowers have no reservations about leaving those lenders with the risks they begged to take.

Consider, too, that, yes, going through a foreclosure kills your credit rating and makes it a lot harder to buy a new house—but as more and more prime borrowers go into foreclosure, it's perfectly possible that buying a new home a year later will in the near future be as routine and unsurprising as the once inconceivable idea that you can get a whole batch of new credit cards two years after a bankruptcy.

Of course, all those people stuck between rising mortgages and falling prices are free to follow Paulson's advice: Keep making payments on an outsized mortgage, and take a bullet for the greater economic good. Fortunately for them, and perhaps unfortunately for the economy, a lot of them will come to the realization that they just don't have to.


Also, Mish covered the topic last year and had an excellent analysis of the moral equation behind "walking away":

Avalon writes: "Mish, I'm very disappointed that you don't think people are morally obligated to try to honor their agreements. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right."

Let's explore the issue of moral obligation with a series of questions.

* Where was the moral obligation of those willing to lend money to someone who they knew could not possibly afford the house?
* Where was the moral obligation of those willing to lend money to someone when the lender did not care how overpriced the home was?
* Where was the moral obligation of those willing to lend money to someone when the lender explicitly knew how overpriced the home was?
* What are the moral obligations homeowners to provide for their family the best legal means they can?
* Suppose someone could "afford" to make payments but at the expense of say health insurance or better schools? What's the moral obligation on that person?
* Does moral obligation only run in one direction?
* Should someone have a moral obligation if he signs a contract with a thief?

National Referendum On Walking Away

Most don't realize it but there is currently a national referendum on walking away that is page one news every single day. I am talking about decision 2008, the presidential election.

Will we walk away from Iraq or not?

* A vote for John McCain is a vote for the status quo of wasting trillions more dollars and countless more lives in Iraq.
* A Vote for Obama is a vote for exiting that hellhole and having discussions with Iran.
* A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for wishy washiness, political expediency, and the same stubborn unwillingness to admit mistakes that we see in Bush.


The moral obligations of walking away from Iraq

* Do we have a moral obligation to spend money in Iraq after we blew it to smithereens?
* Do we have a moral obligation to admit mistakes and stop wasting lives of soldiers?
* Do we have a moral obligation to repair the decaying infrastructure of the US instead of attempting to be the world's policeman?
* Do we have a moral obligation to the Citizens of the US to get out of the region, given that being in the region dramatically escalates the risk of terrorism against the US?
* Do we have a moral obligation to stop wasting billions of dollars in jet fuel flying needless missions all over the world when crude oil prices are so high?
* Is there a moral obligation to let Europe and Japan defend themselves rather than depending on US overseas bases and US taxpayer dollars to defend them?
* Is there a moral obligation for the US to walks away from Europe and Japan with so many suffering here?

A discussion of moral obligations in terms of walking away is not as easy as it might have seemed at first glance. There are many questions but no consensus answers. That’s because moral obligations of walking away go far beyond signing on the dotted line. Where people "draw the line" on walking away is going to play a major role in determining the next president of the United States.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. This has been known and talked about on the bubble blogs for years.
Real cutting edge journalism, 60 minutes. :sarcasm:

Here's my friend Keith writing about it in May 2007:

http://housingpanic.blogspot.com/2007/03/bear-stearns-and-indymac-say-alt-liars.html

Housing Doom covered it back in 2006:

http://housingdoom.com/2007/03/14/alt-a-then-and-now/

I can remember seeing graphs of the reset dates with warnings of the impending crisis years ago.

Way to go MSM.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Yes, it has been talked about before. But I like to give M$M credit when they do cover something
important. The fact is, a couple of years ago no matter how much you talked about the dangerous credit practices being used it didn't get very much of people's attention.

That's why I and no doubt you and many others go to the internet. Because M$M usually only reports on stuff when it's already common knowledge and it's safe to talk about.

Nonetheless, I try to help them along by noting when they do report on important issues. (as well as criticize them for their usual practice to not reporting on important matters or passing along disinformation).

Have a nice day.:)
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Here's a link to another DUers post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x51063

to save time:
http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/option-arm-no-one-saw-it-coming-according-to-the-mainstream-media-the-alt-a-and-pay-option-arm-tsunami-quickly-approaches-charting-the-option-arm-and-alt-a-wave/

"Dr Housing Bubble" states about the 60 Minutes report: "It is a good piece although late to the game. Yet I give CBS credit because I have yet to see ABC or NBC have any substantive piece regarding this matter."

Thank you, Dr. (I share your sentiments.)






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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yep, the next wave is coming in January and yep, lenders are
doing it to themselves, because the lenders are NOT restructuring loans, NOT lowering interest on these loans and NOT working with homeowners in the slightest. Instead, they're taking people's homes right out from under them.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Furthermore, where's the plan to help these homeowners?
I've heard about helping 'renters' who have Fannie Mae loans, but what about everybody else?
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fed_up_mother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Take the houses and get bailed out by the government - win/win for the finance institutions
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Ninja loans piss me off. No income, No Job, No Assets.
Edited on Mon Dec-15-08 06:28 PM by sarcasmo
Anyone who issued one of these loans should be put in jail. Giving a loan to someone with out a job, and no means to pay it back. Our free fall hasn't even come close to being finished. It's going to get uglier.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I agree!
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. And lets not forget the looming COMMERCIAL realestate bubble crash.
That will also be coming into play next year.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That's right.
A number of smaller banks have gone deep with their large commercial clients and we will be seeing a new round of problems based on inability of the developers to meet their obligations. I've been looking at those bank portfolios, and believe me, they don't want to even consider that they might go bad. There have been ups and downs in commercial real estate, but, after all, who woulda thunk that this downturn would have lasted so long?

When those developers go there will be additional layoffs, too.
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