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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:02 PM
Original message
What's Dead (Short Answer: All Of It) - The bleakest assessment I have ever read.
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 05:16 PM by Emillereid
I am reluctant even to send this out - since it leaves one in complete despair. But peruse this guy's site - he has been uncannily accurate in his predictions. BTW, how much cash can one get from a bank - is there a limit? Liz
http://market-ticker.org/authors/2-Karl-Denninger

What's Dead (Short Answer: All Of It)
Just so you have a short list of what's at stake if Washington DC doesn't change policy here and now (which means before the collapse in equities comes, which could start as soon as today, if the indicators I watch have any validity at all. For what its worth, those indicators are painting a picture of the Apocalypse that I simply can't believe, and they're showing it as an imminent event - like perhaps today imminent.)

All pension funds, private and public, are done. If you are receiving one, you won't be. If you think you will in the future, you won't be. PBGC will fail as well. Pension funds will be forced to start eating their "seed corn" within the next 12 months and once that begins there is no way to recover.
All annuities will be defaulted to the state insurance protection (if any) on them. The state insurance funds will be bankrupted and unable to be replenished. Essentially, all annuities are toast. Expect zero, be ecstatic if you do better. All insurance companies with material exposure to these obligations will go bankrupt, without exception. Some of these firms are dangerously close to this happening right here and now; the rest will die within the next 6-12 months. If you have other insured interests with these firms, be prepared to pay a LOT more with a new company that can't earn anything off investments, and if you have a claim in process at the time it happens, it won't get paid. The probability of you getting "boned" on any transaction with an insurance company is extremely high - I rate this risk in excess of 90%.
The FDIC will be unable to cover bank failure obligations. They will attempt to do more of what they're doing now (raising insurance rates and doing special assessments) but will fail; the current path has no chance of success. Congress will backstop them (because they must lest shotguns come out) with disastrous results. In short, FDIC backstops will take precedence even over Social Security and Medicare.
Government debt costs will ramp. This warning has already been issued and is being ignored by President Obama. When (not if) it happens debt-based Federal Funding will disappear. This leads to....
Tax receipts are cratering and will continue to. I expect total tax receipts to fall to under $1 trillion within the next 12 months. Combined with the impossibility of continued debt issue (rollover will only remain possible at the short duration Treasury has committed to over the last ten years if they cease new issue) a 66% cut in the Federal Budget will become necessary. This will require a complete repudiation of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, a 50% cut in the military budget and a 50% across-the-board cut in all other federal programs. That will likely get close.
Tax-deferred accounts will be seized to fund rollovers of Treasury debt at essentially zero coupon (interest). If you have a 401k, or what's left of it, or an IRA, consider it locked up in Treasuries; it's not yours any more. Count on this happening - it is essentially a certainty.
Any firm with debt outstanding is currently presumed dead as the street presumption is that they have lied in some way. Expect at least 20% of the S&P 500 to fail within 12 months as a consequence of the complete and total lockup of all credit markets which The Fed will be unable to unlock or backstop. This will in turn lead to....
The unemployed will have 5-10 million in direct layoffs added within the next 12 months. Collateral damage (suppliers, customers, etc) will add at least another 5-10 million workers to that, perhaps double that many. U-3 (official unemployment rate) will go beyond 15%, U-6 (broad form) will reach 30%.
Civil unrest will break out before the end of the year. The Military and Guard will be called up to try to stop it. They won't be able to. Big cities are at risk of becoming a free-fire death zone. If you live in one, figure out how you can get out and live somewhere else if you detect signs that yours is starting to go "feral"; witness New Orleans after Katrina for how fast, and how bad, it can get.
The good news is that this process will clear The Bezzle out of the system.

The bad news is that you won't have a job, pension, annuity, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and, quite possibly, your life.

It really is that bleak folks, and it all goes back to Washington DC being unwilling to lock up the crooks, putting the market in the role it has always played - that of truth-finder, no matter how destructive that process is.

Only immediate action from Washington DC, taking the market's place, can stop this, and as I get ready to hit "send" I see the market rolling over again, now down more than 3% and flashing "crash imminent" warnings. You may be reading this too late for it to matter.

In 3 minutes, what's coming.....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGWMs5cdQ2k&eurl=http://market-ticker.org/authors/2-Karl-Denninger
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. If everything goes, everything goes.
If, if, if.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, THAT was cheerful.
I may as well shoot myself now.
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Doesn't sound like there' s much to look forward to, does it?
Bleak doesn't even come close to describing it. Sounds like it would make a good movie.

Has anyone seen Rollover from 1980? It starred Jane Fonda and Kris Kristofferson. It dealt with the insolvency of worldwide currencies.

Anyone remember "account 21214"?
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. you and me both, blue. my entire income is my pension, a public
pension. :(
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. We rely on a pension, too.
My husband has his marine engineer's pension, and I'm getting the social security now, of course. I'm hoping this guy is maybe just sitting under a dark cloud and not seeing any silver linings.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. me too. :(
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. no matter what happens....
take good care of that dog in your picture. Those are the greatest dogs ever.
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Tyrone Slothrop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. Um...peruse what guy's site?
I don't see any link (except the YouTube video).

Did you write this?
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Sorry - I just posted the link. The hyperlink didn't copy. Scroll down the page.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. where's the link? I only see a youtube link? n/t
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Her it is - scroll down the page.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. pratically Rapture Ready! (Without, I guess, the rapture...!)
n/t
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-11-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
64. Sor t of describes my life - that phrase.
At least my life before calamities hit.

now I just laugh at everything, when not pulling hair out in despair.

Yep rapture ready with out the rapture. Hope you don't mind me using it?
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ComtesseDeSpair Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. If this guy really believes this crap...
why hasn't he shot himself already?
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Po_d Mainiac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
61. You may want
to read his predictions for 07 and 08 before writing Denninger off as a whack job........why hasn't he shot himself already?........Because he's put his money where his brain is! He's told everyone what firms are his "short" targets, and why. Then he walks away with the purses of those that bet against reality.

:nuke:
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. But look at all the jobs
that would be created by rebuilding.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. first the banks then the farms
"The last desperate act of the banking system in the face of Peak Oil’s no-more-growth equation was to engineer species of tradable securities that could produce wealth out of thin air rather than productive activity. This was the alphabet soup of algorithm-derived frauds with vague and confounding names such as credit default swaps (CDSs), collateralized debt obligations (CDOs), structured investment vehicles (SIVs), and, of course, the basic filler, mortgage backed securities. The banking system is now choking to death on these delicacies.

The trouble is that the EMT squad brought in to rescue the banking system — that is, governments — can’t remove these obstructions from the patient’s craw. They don’t want to drown in a mighty upchuck of the alphabet soup.

The collapse of complex systems is actually predicated on the idea that the systems would mutually reinforce each other’s failures. This is now plain to see as the collapse of banking (that is, of both lending and debt service), has led to the collapse of commerce and manufacturing. The next systems to go will probably be farming, transportation, and the oil markets themselves (which constitute the system for allocating and distributing world energy resources). As these things seize up, the final system to go will be governance, at least at the highest levels.

If we’re really lucky, human affairs will eventually reorganize at a lower scale of activity, governance, civility, and economy. Every week, the failure to recognize the nature of our predicament thrusts us further into the uncharted territory of hardship. The task of government right now is not to prop up doomed systems at their current scales of failure, but to prepare the public to rebuild our systems at smaller scales.

The net effect of the failures in banking is that a lot of people have less money than they expected they would have a year ago. This is bad enough, given our habits and practices of modern life. But what happens when farming collapses? The prospect for that is closer than most of us might realize. The way we produce our food has been organized at a scale that has ruinous consequences, not least its addiction to capital. Now that banking is in collapse, capital will be extremely scarce. Nobody in the cities reads farm news, or listens to farm reports on the radio. Guess what, though: we are entering the planting season. It will be interesting to learn how many farmers “out there” in the Cheez Doodle belt are not able to secure loans for this year’s crop.

My guess is that the disorder in agriculture will be pretty severe this year, especially since some of the world’s most productive places — California, northern China, Argentina, the Australian grain belt — are caught in extremes of drought on top of capital shortages. If the U.S. government is going to try to make remedial policy for anything, it better start with agriculture, to promote local, smaller-scaled farming using methods that are much less dependent on oil byproducts and capital injections.

This will, of course, require a re-allocation of lands suitable for growing food. Our real estate market mechanisms could conceivably enable this to happen, but not without a coherent consensus that it is imperative to do so. If agribusiness as currently practiced doesn’t founder on capital shortages, it will surely collapse on disruptions in the oil markets. President Obama at least made a start in the right direction by proposing to eliminate further subsidies to farmers above the $250,000 level. But the situation is really more acute. Surely the US Department of Agriculture already knows about it, but the public may not be interested until the shelves in the Piggly-Wiggly are bare — and then, of course, they’ll go crazy.

The recent huge drop in oil prices has left the public once again convinced that the world is drowning in oil — if only the scoundrelly oil companies were forced to deliver it at reasonable prices. The public has been consistently deluded about this for decades. What’s missing so far is for the president of the United States to lay out the reality of the situation in a dedicated TV address. I know a lot of you think that Jimmy Carter already tried this and failed to make an impression (and ruined his presidency in the process). I guarantee you that Mr. Obama will have to do this sometime in the next few years whether he likes or not, and he’d be well-advised to get it done sooner rather than later. And by this I don’t mean just vague allusions to “energy independence” or “renewables” in speeches devoted to many other issues. I mean telling the public the plain truth that we’ll never offset oil depletion and the intelligent response is to do everything possible to transition to walkable towns and public transit, not to sustain the unsustainable.

The alternatives — i.e. what we’re trying now — is to further delude ourselves into thinking that we can run Wal-Mart and the suburbs by some other means than oil. Despite all our investments in these things, we won’t be able to run them by other means, and the news about this had better get out before enormous disappointment turns into titanic rage. If Americans think they’ve been grifted by Goldman Sachs and Bernie Madoff, wait until they find out what a swindle the so-called “American Dream” of suburban life turns out to be.

This week, in the power centers of America, attention is fixed on the never-ending fiasco of AIG — a company whose main product turned out to be credit default swaps, and is now choking on them. Kibitzers on the sidelines of finance are forecasting a king-hell bear market suckers’ rally in the stock markets followed by a belly flop to Dow 4000 or lower. I myself called for Dow 4000 two years ago — and was obviously a bit off on my timing. All this is surely trouble enough. But while your attention is focused on Rick Santelli in the Chicago trader’s pit, or Larry Kudlow desperately seeking “mustard seeds” of new growth in financials, try to let one eye stray to the horizon where these other complex systems are working out their next moves. Farming. The oil markets. These are the coming theaters of alarm and distress.


http://www.dailyreckoning.com/peak-oil-whats-next/
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Thanks for the article.
We need to re-build local economies. Personally I don't see these mega-banks as "too big to fail," I see them as too big to exist!
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. roflmao
Thanks, I needed that! ;-)
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. there are many faces I wish I will be able to see when reality hits
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
43. My apologies for being flip...But I prefer to laugh.
Whether or not doomsday is here, I PREFER TO LAUGH.

I PREFER TO LAUGH.

Got it? I got your post. I've read his blog - yet I choose to laugh?

Hmmm...that does not necessarily mean I can not see reality now does it?

It just means that I'd rather laugh than sit around pissing my pants.

Vilis Veritas
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #43
63. You'll be pissing your pants soon enough.
Laugh while you can, I guess.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. oh my god we are all going to die!
i think the person who wrote this needs to seek professional help.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. For what it's worth, the "Market Ticker" guy has lots of fans on the far right:
http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=49182

Doesn't mean he's wrong about everything... but it's always nice to know how someone is "calibrated," when they're making definitive pronouncements...
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. He's also been calling for putting the banks in receivership and for the wall street
bankers to be put in jail. He has called for total transparency regarding the banks - that they open their books for all to see.

Here's another of his articles: http://market-ticker.org/search/nationalization/P2.html I especially like the last line of this one.

The Challenge Before America
Thursday night, readers of The Ticker are aware, I gave a speech while receiving the AIM 2009 Grassroots award in which I dealt with "The Bezzle" within our modern finance system.

I wish to spend today's Ticker focusing on that concept - what it means for the broader economy - and why it is absolutely critical that our government and regulators put a stop to it - right here and now.

First, some facts - some 2/3rds of all capital in the marketplace, whether in the form of credit or cash, is private. Some of it is owned by people like you and I, some by sovereign funds (e.g. Saudi Princes) and some by large foreign and domestic institutional interests (e.g. Pension funds.)

All of this capital has one thing in common: It cannot be forced to enter or stay in any particular market. It is, in fact, entirely possible for that capital to decide to head straight for "the mattress" (that is, to remain in cash) at any point in time, or to allocate itself in any particular asset class it so chooses.

Policymakers are incapable of replacing this capital with public funds (e.g. "new reserves", TARP or other such silliness.) To put this in proper perspective some numbers are in order - with some $50 trillion in total private and public debt outstanding in the United States the debt base alone involved here is roughly $30 trillion in private capital.

This is why The Fed's and Treasury's "commitment" of some $10 trillion (thus far) in loan guarantees and direct spending has done nothing to stem this crisis - and they can't possibly come up with another $20 trillion without collapsing the bond market and destroying both The Fed and The Government.

Policymakers must realize that there is exactly one - and only one - way out of this mess.

"The Bezzle" must be eradicated.

I fully realize that this is extremely difficult politically, but let's face the facts here.

Every "private capital source" that has been enticed into this morass over the last two years has been destroyed, including Warren Buffett (Goldman Sachs and others) and The Saudis (Citigroup among others.)

Then you have Bernie Madoff and Stanford Financial, two alleged frauds that were "known" to the government more than ten years ago and yet were either not investigated or intentionally allowed to continue to operate, robbing people of literal billions of dollars.

Finally, you have AIG which reported a $61.66 billion loss, or $22.95 a share - for a stock trading under two bits. Stripping out capital losses and "accounting issues" you'd still have a loss of $37.9 billion, or $14.17/share. The government has "agreed" to provide another $30 billion to the firm in addition to the previous $150 billion that has been sucked into a black hole. Once again AIG has been deemed "a systemically significant failing institution" that has to be propped up, according to Treasury.

And who were the beneficiaries? Goldman, Merrill, and now overseas banks. Instead of putting the firm into receivership and running down its portfolio over time, forcing the losses to be netted and taken, we are instead rewarding "The Bezzle" by protecting those who did imprudent and even outrageous things with unlimited taxpayer dollars.

Every last one of those "investments" has been wrecked as a direct consequence of "The Bezzle" - that is, our government's refusal to uphold the law and force the truth to be disclosed both publicly and to investors. Our government and its agencies have gone so far as to intentionally mislead in many cases, including claims related to nationalization of banks and respect for capital structures just before people were wiped out in investments that should have had preference.

What's worse, in some cases such as AIGs, not only has "The Bezzle" ripped off private investors it is also ripping off the taxpayers - multiple times - with no indication that we're going to stop this course of action any time soon!

The market no longer sees these "rescues" as positive - it now sees them as what they in fact are: coverups for papering over raw fraud and abuse, and thus when each new "rescue" is announced the market tanks instead of stabilizing.

Fact is that intentional and willful misconduct by our government agencies, both as acts of omission and commission, has resulted in these firms, institutions and nations suffering crippling losses.

These acts of malfeasance and misfeasance in government agencies include (but are not limited to):

"23A Exemption" letters
Willful and improper classification of funds (IndyMac) which kept the FDIC from taking enforcement action in a timely fashion
Willful removal of leverage limits (championed by and granted as a consequence of Henry Paulson's request before he joined Treasury; every one of the 5 firms that has blown up had 2x or more the formerly legal limit)
Willful removal of bank leverage limits and reserve ratios by The Fed and Congress in permitting "sweeps" along with allowing The Fed authority to set reserve ratios wherever it would like, including to zero.
Willful failure to police CDS margins and capital adequacy (e.g. AIG and others) thereby leading firms to be deeply insolvent yet continuing to operate as if nothing was wrong - until the cash ran out and we suddenly had a systemic crisis.
Willful failure to enforce suitability regulations on mortgage lenders, along with intentional preemption of state predatory lending laws.
Willful blindness related to the blatant and outrageous false statements made by both lenders and borrowers; the essence of "liar loans."
Willful blindness related to both Madoff and Stanford Financial
Willful blindness related to ratings agency conflicts of interest, "ratings shopping" and known-flawed ratings models.
Willful blindness with regards to firms selling securities to customers which they were shorting at the same time - without disclosing this fact to the customer they were marketing to.
Refusal to take action related to the false statements of executives on the health of their firms on national TV networks such as CNBC, when reliance on those statements led to complete wipeouts (Bear Stearns and Lehman)
Misleading statements related to the health of Fannie and Freddie made by administration officials, leading to near-total losses for both common and preferred shareholders.
Most recently, misleading statements related to the intended path for banks and capital adequacy, including Citibank.
These private sources of capital have quite reasonably withdrawn from the marketplace. They will not return until they can be assured that losses they suffer will result only from their own poor investment decisions and not from willful concealment of losses and even fraud by those in whom they invest nor from changes in the rules imposed by fiat from Washington DC. These private capital sources also want to see indictments, prosecutions and imprisonment - along with ejection of the parties responsible in both private enterprise and our government.

This is a serious problem for our capital markets and economy generally as without this private capital we are doomed to a massive economic contraction. Conservatively speaking, assuming our government can actually fund the $9-10 trillion they've promised, which I believe is a pure fantasy (it would represent nearly a tripling of the public float of US Debt!) we would suffer a 30% contraction in GDP over the next 18-24 months.

If they cannot fund those commitments much beyond the $1 trillion already spent, the contraction would be more on the order of 50%.

This would take us back to roughly 1994 levels in GDP terms, looking at constant dollars, a setback of some 15 years.

The damage, however, would be much worse than it appears at first blush, because in conjunction with the expansion in GDP state and local governments, along with government spending, have expanded, expecting that "GDP never goes down" (doesn't that sound familiar to those who believe that "house prices never go down"?)

Were we to contract to a $7 trillion GDP, for example, our current federal budget would reach nearly half of GDP! This would be impossible to sustain as tax revenues would collapse under such a scenario.

We have exactly one opportunity to stop this, and that opportunity is now.

Government simply must stop "The Bezzle" in all parts of our economy and capital markets, and must do so right here, right now, today.

If we fail to demand this as Americans or our government fails to implement this across the board then we will suffer a Depression worse than the 1930s.

This is not conjecture.

It is not a prediction, nor drawn from how I "feel".

This is mathematics; it is a fact that we cannot possibly maintain anything close to our current standard of living unless private capital decides to re-enter our marketplace - a decision that government cannot force.

The consequences of an economic Depression of this magnitude are almost too serious to contemplate. They include unemployment topping 20%, an average annual income decrease for Americans of some 30% (for those who remain employed!), a 70-80% decrease in retirement accounts such as IRAs and 401ks and the decimation of both private and public pensions, resulting in a reduction in benefits of 50% or more.

Should government attempt to "replace" that private capital the result will be a bond market collapse. This too is inevitable; into an environment of falling tax receipts (down 15% already) foreign governments and investors would have to be insane to continue purchasing US Treasury debt.

THAT event, should it occur, would result in The Federal Government being forced to contract to 1/3rd of its current size almost literally overnight. The only way to accomplish this would be to entirely eliminate all Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid funding, cut Defense spending by 75%, and cut all remaining discretionary programs by 50%.

Needless to say such an event would be catastrophic for our society - far worse than a "mere" Depression. In fact, that latter outcome has a very high probability of destabilizing our government and political system entirely.

Let me be crystal clear: the very real possibility exists that our government could collapse.

The time to play games and fiddle hoping for a turn in the housing market or some other miracle has passed. Bernanke himself said if the financial system cannot be stabilized our economy will not recover.

He is correct - but our financial system, including both credit and stock markets, cannot stabilize (say much less recover) until and unless private capital re-enters the market.

That simply will not happen until "The Bezzle" is driven out.

We either act now or suffer the consequences - the utter destruction of our middle class, a collapsed stock market with the DOW headed to 3,000 or worse and the S&P 500 headed into the 400 or lower range, unemployment topping 20% and GDP falling by 30% or more, complete destruction of both private and state-run pension systems, and a very real possibility that our nation collapses.

Your choice America.

This is math - not politics. Put the partisan political crap away - it is not only inappropriate but at this time in our nation's history it is insanely destructive - and instead do the right thing.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Much to consider in that article, and curious that AIM is honoring him, as well
I wonder if he was as vociferous about the war on the middle class when Bush was in office?

Perhaps.

Was he calling for an end to "the Bezzle" after the stolen election of 2001?

etc.

In other words, is it more of an apocalypse because a Democrat's in office?

I'd like to ask him, considering the scorched earth picture he paints....
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marketcrazy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I believe he started his site in 2006
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 06:03 PM by marketcrazy1
after seeing the mortgage industry begin to collapse. he has been calling this decline with great accuracy. look at his predictions for 2007 and 2008 made at the start of those years. see how right he was. Karl has been a pit bull when it comes to the banks, mortgage companies and investment houses. he plays no favorites and pulls no punches. all he wants is the truth. transparency is his call to arms.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. well, since he's being honored by AIM along with a guy who says Joe McCarthy was right,
perhaps it means that left and right are being brought together at last by widespread collapse...

curious times, indeed....
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I got banned...
... or more correctly told him off after he rescinded my posting privileges for not sitting by and reading all of the bullshit Obama bashing without responding. He claims he doesn't allow politics but that only applies to bashing Bush, bashing Obama is a 24/7 sport on the board.

Also, the board is full of idiot Libertarians. The very people whose ideals aided and abetted this crisis at the very minimum.

Yes, he is pretty good on the economics, although I don't think he has a crystal ball and he has made several dire "almost" predictions the last few months that have not panned out for him.

I still read occassionally, there are a handful of really bright people there. But you'll have to dig a lot to get past all of the extreme negativity towards Obama that was never allowed against Bush the architect of this disaster.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. pretty much what I would've guessed...
...an occasional useful nugget of info amidst the expected Obama bashing, fear of government (when it's social programs and not "defense," etc...)

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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. He has savaged the Bush crowd
Check out in particular his brutal treatment of Paulson.

Denninger is one guy who really understands what's going on and who has been getting away with what.

I'd be a lot more comfortable with him as Treasury Secretary than the banker-crowd idiot we've got now.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-11-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
66. Same here. Or I 'd take Issa as well
Of course my avatar explains who I'd really like to see kicking Wall Street ass.
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. this guy is an idiot
in history, things don't fall like he describes so fast. institutions persist. a reasonable comparison for a worst case might be the fall of the USSR, but they didn't just have an economic system that failed, they had an entire political system that no one believed in. The US financial system is rotted away, but the rest of things are in decent - not saying superb - shape, and the people of this country still believe in it and want it to succeed, Rush Limbaugh excepted.
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marketcrazy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. he`s no Idiot he`s a pissed off American
gonna be lots of those before this is over. what is happening now has no parallel in history as there has never existed a worldwide financial system so highly over levered. this market has already declined at a rate twice as fast as the crash of 29/30`s. the financial impact is being felt worldwide in ways never before seen. the scenario he is putting forward is extreme and in his opinion possible and I tend to agree. however possible does not mean probable, the point is we need to act and soon or the worst case COULD come to pass.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. See: Argentina, 2001. (N/T)
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
40. uh, no they don't... just ask the foks of Rome... or the Mayans
Empires fail. That's rule number One.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
46. Didn't this happen to Argentina? nt
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
57. i dunno, we are in uncharted waters here--if farmers cant get money to plant
there are not many jobs left after the service sector corrects to people not buying useless junk
things could spin down pretty quickly,, i have no idea,but the american economy based on people living off refi money seems like it could simply blow away in the evening breeze
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
62. People who speak of things they do not know are the real idiots.
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 02:54 AM by SlowDownFast
That includes you.
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MadrasT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. About Denninger
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 06:18 PM by MadrasT
I've been reading his blog for quite some time. This particular entry really took me aback.

He is not a tinfoil hat gloom-and-doomer. Karl has the keenest grasp on the economy and politics I've ever seen - and he's actually fairly non-partisan. He spent plenty of time bashing the Bush administration when they were in the driver's seat (example here: http://market-ticker.org/archives/633-Bush-Caught-Red-Handed-In-A-Lie.html)

You can read his "Tickers" going back to April 2007 (when he started writing his "Market Ticker" blog) here: http://market-ticker.org/

I would urge anyone who thinks he's some rabid nutcase to spend quite a bit of time reviewing his commentaries as written over the last two years (as this crisis unfolded) before you dismiss this particular post as "tin" and laugh it off. He "called" a lot of this before it happened.

The man is a true patriot, he's smart as shit, and has a firm grasp of the reality of our current economic crisis.

Just my 2 cents. YMMV.

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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. In that case, I'm going to buy some guns & ammo before it's too late
and I'll be able to guard my house and my food and tools from you menacing hordes. Oh, wait, I thought this was Free Republic. Sorry.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Don't laugh too hard
You may end up wishing you had done just that.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. We all have different psychological make-ups. Many among us are unable
to conceive of such a set of circumstances. The very thought of it is untenable. It has always been this way.
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DeschutesRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. I remember when he used to ban people for saying things along the lines of what he just said
seemed always to be to be an equal opportunity basher. And on the subject of finance and economics, a very smart guy. Quirky. But he has a great grip on the subject, and I learn a lot there. Plenty of good brains there to hash this crap over.

Yeah, I have also watched this unfold over the last couple of years on his site. This is something coming from him this late in the game.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
41. I agree...
I've been following him almost since he began. He's been spot on. I don't find him to be partisan at all.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
32. Pension Bombs Going Off (Chicago Business News)
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
35. K & R & Bookmarked....
:yoiks:
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
36. Check out this site:
Edited on Fri Mar-06-09 02:17 AM by Emillereid
http://www.leap2020.eu/English_r25.html

This European group has also been uncannily accurate. In Feb. 2008 they predicted that the following September banks would seize up and said that this month (March, 2009) people will really begin to realize how deep and global the crisis is and that it will become obvious that the pension funds are gone. They predict that the US government will default this summer. Here's their latest for public consumption.

GEAB N°32 is available! 4th quarter 2009 – Beginning of Phase 5 of the global systemic crisis: phase of global geopolitical dislocation

- Public announcement GEAB N°32 (February 16, 2009) -


Back in February 2006, LEAP/E2020 estimated that the global systemic crisis would unfold in 4 main structural phases: trigger, acceleration, impact and decanting phases. This process enabled us to properly anticipate events until now. However our team has now come to the conclusion that, due to the global leaders’ incapacity to fully realise the scope of the ongoing crisis (made obvious by their determination to cure the consequences rather than the causes of this crisis), the global systemic crisis will enter a fifth phase in the fourth quarter of 2009, a phase of global geopolitical dislocation.

According to LEAP/E2020, this new stage of the crisis will be shaped by two major processes happening in two parallel sequences:

A. Two major processes:
1. Disappearance of the financial base (Dollar & Debt) all over the world
2. Fragmentation of the interests of the global system’s big players and blocks

B. Two parallel sequences:
1. Quick disintegration of the current international system altogether
2. Strategic dislocation of big global players.

We had hoped that the decanting phase would give the world’s leaders the opportunity to draw the proper conclusions from the collapse of the global system prevailing since WWII. Alas, at this stage, it is no longer possible to be optimistic in this regard (1). In the United States, as in Europe, China and Japan, leaders persist in reacting as if the global system has only fallen victim to some temporary breakdown, merely requiring loads of fuel (liquidities) and other ingredients (rate drops, repurchase of toxic assets, bailouts of semi-bankrupt industries,…) to reboot it. In fact (and this is what LEAP/E2020 means ever since February 2006 using the expression « global systemic crisis”), the global system is simply out of order; a new one needs to be built instead of striving to save what can no longer be saved.


Orders in the manufacturing sector, Quarter 4 2008 (Japan, Eurozone, United Kingdom, China, India) - Sources : MarketOracle / JPMorgan
History is not known to be patient, therefore the fifth phase of the crisis will ignite this required process of reconstruction, but in a harsh manner: by means of a complete dislocation of the present system, with particularly tragic consequences in the case of several big global players, as described in this 32nd issue of the GEAB (see the two parallel sequences).

According to LEAP/E2020, there is only one very small launch window left to prevent this scenario from shaping up: the next four months, before summer 2009. Practically speaking, the April 2009 G20 Summit is probably the last chance to put on the right tracks the forces at play, i.e. before the sequence of UK and then US defaults begin (2). Failing which, they will lose their capacity to control events (3), including those in their own countries for many of them; and the world will enter this phase of geopolitical dislocation like a “drunken boat”. At the end of this phase of geopolitical dislocation, the world will look more like Europe in 1913 rather than our world in 2007.

more at http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-32-is-available!-4th-quarter-2009-Beginning-of-Phase-5-of-the-global-systemic-crisis-phase-of-global-geopolitical_a2805.html

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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yes. And then, soon, there will be another Great Capitalist/Imperialist War
... to end all wars.
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Blue Gardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
38. I wish people would give Obama a chance
A let him fix this mess.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. It's bigger than Obama
and some bureaucratic soft-shoe isn't going to fix anything. It needs an over-haul, not a tune-up or fuel injection. It is a systemic crisis, not a localized one. I think that's the hardest thing for people to grasp.
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. Some things are too broken to fix.
Edited on Fri Mar-06-09 02:37 PM by SlowDownFast
Try to unscramble an omelette sometime.

At the same time, some broken things have a design flaw so serious that they need to be re-engineered from the ground up - simply replacing/fixing broken parts won't keep the problems from happening again.

Obama is in over his head. So is all of Congress.

It also doesn't help things that he's surrounded himself with the very people who helped create this mess and Congress has continued to enable the looting of our Treasury by financial entities.

It's time for a fresh start.

Unfortunately, meaningful "change" is usually accompanied by a period of great distress and self-reflection.

Dancing With The Stars and American Idol is about to be re-prioritized on the palette of American minds.

Karma can be one mean bitch.



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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
39. We still have plenty of physical and intellectual capital, though
If your house loses 90% of its exchange value, nothing happens to its use value. If it kept you warm and dry two years ago, it will do the same today.

Somehow we are going to have to learn to strip the bullshit out of the financial sector and redevelop an economy based on real goods and services.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #39
47. Amen!
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
44. How You Can Profit from a Monetary Crisis.
This was the title of a book published in 1974.

The author recommended that you bury gold, stockpile weapons, and have a "retreat" or bunker.

http://www.amazon.com/You-Can-Profit-Monetary-Crisis/dp/0025174606/ref=pd_sim_b_5

"The Great Depression of 1992" was another one, written in the 80's.

In the 50's, Social Security was going to go broke in the 70's. In the 70's, Rep. George W. Bush of Texas said that Social Security was going to go broke by 1987.

RELAX.

The United States is blessed with resources and hard-working people. We are the most productive nation on earth.

YES, WE CAN.


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marketcrazy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. YES WE CAN!! I hear that alot
and I agree "yes we can" but WILL WE!!! still waiting for "change we can believe in" so far the Presidents policy towards the banks has been the same as the Bush policy. ( throw money at it ) the problem is that Bush never intended for his policy to solve the crisis, it was designed to delay the worst until he could get out!
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. This may be true.
But we are also the most spoiled, gluttonous, dumbed-down nation on earth.

For these reasons I do not expect this "transition" to go smoothly AT ALL.

Ever had to discipline a spoiled brat before?

I have.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. Americans are also the hardest working, with the least time off, and the most fleeced
by corporate financial interests of any industrialized nation on this planet.

Don't blame all of this on the little people. We didn't invent credit-default swaps leveraged at 50:1 and other such monetary fictions that built the house of cards and eventually brought it down.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
48. The $700 trillion elephant - Gargantuan derivatives market weighs on all other issues
I urge you all to read Ellen Brown's book "Web of Debt" - go to www.webofdebt.com - to fully understand this. She also proposes that the US government take back the right to issue its own money at no interest to private bankers. North Dakota has its own bank and is one of the few states not facing bankruptcy.
Personally I think most of these derivatives should just be abandoned - I don't even think things like CDSs should have been legal.

THOMAS KOSTIGEN'S ETHICS MONITOR
The $700 trillion elephant
Commentary: Gargantuan derivatives market weighs on all other issues


Last update: 12:01 a.m. EST March 6, 2009
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/The-700-trillion-elephant-room/story.aspx?guid=%7b024DB809-8506-4AA9-83BB-B053FD4E1C11%7d&dist=SecMostRead&print=true&dist=printMidSection

SANTA MONICA, Calif. (MarketWatch) -- There's a $700 trillion elephant in the room and it's time we found out how much it really weighs on the economy.
Derivative contracts total about three-quarters of a quadrillion dollars in "notional" amounts, according to the Bank for International Settlements. These contracts are tallied in notional values because no one really can say how much they are worth.

But valuing them correctly is exactly what we should be doing because these comprise the viral disease that has infected the financial markets and the economies of the world.
Try as we might to salvage the residential real estate market, it's at best worth $23 trillion in the U.S. We're struggling to save the stock market, but that's valued at less than $15 trillion. And we hope to keep the entire U.S. economy from collapsing, yet gross domestic product stands at $14.2 trillion.
Compare any of these to the derivatives market and you can easily see that we are just closing the windows as a tsunami crashes to shore. The total value of all the stock markets in the world amounts to less than $50 trillion, according to the World Federation of Exchanges.

To be sure, the derivatives market is international. But much of the trouble we're in began with contracts "derived" from the values associated with U.S. residential real estate market. These contracts were engineered based on the various assumptions tied to those values.
Few know what derivatives are worth. I spoke with one derivatives trader who manages billions of dollars and she said she couldn't even value her portfolio because "no one knows anymore who is on the other side of the trade."

Derivatives pricing, simply put, is determined by what someone else is willing to pay for the contract. The value is based on an artificial scenario that "X" will be worth "Y" if "Z" happens. Strip away the fantasy, however, and the reality of the situation is akin to a game of musical chairs -- without any chairs.
So now the music has finally stopped.

That's why stabilizing the housing market will do little to take the sting out of the snapback we are going through on Wall Street. Once people's mortgages were sold off to secondary buyers, and then all sorts of crazy types of derivative securities were devised based on those, and those securities were in turn traded on down the line, there is now little if any relevance to the real estate values on which they were pegged.

We need to identify and determine the real value of derivatives before we give banks and institutions a pass-go with more tax dollars. Otherwise, homeowners will suffer as banks patch up the holes left in their balance sheets by the derivatives gone poof; new credit won't be extended until the raff of the old credit is put behind.
It isn't the housing market devaluation, or the sub-prime mortgage market defaults that have us in real trouble. Those are nice fakes to sway attention away from the place where greed truly flourished -- trading phony instruments to the tune of $700 trillion.

Let's figure how to get out from under that. Then maybe the capital will begin to flow again through the markets. Right now, this elephant isn't just in the room, it's sitting on us.

Thomas M. Kostigen is the author of You Are Here: Exposing the Vital Link Between What We Do and What That Does to Our Planet (HarperOne). www.readyouarehere.com
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FieldsBlank Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. nice post Emillereid
and all these 'creative financial instruments' were created under the (not) so watchful eyes of Bush's regulators

look up 'synthetic cdo's' to see another ticking timebomb in the room
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. It's time to bring back the guillotine, je pense!
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
55. the bezzle IS both parties
when Kucinich was black balled in his own party (by name), I went ahead and stuck a fork in it.

-the imbezzled
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-11-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. I'm embarrassed to say that I have him as my avatar
Edited on Wed Mar-11-09 05:33 PM by truedelphi
Only because i Couldn't figure out how to change it to one of Obama during the election.

But now more than ever, I see what wisdom Kooch offers.

And he is not the only one. He has some fine company in Issa - that Republican's social policies are shitty - but social policies won't matter when we are living in caves or underpasses. What we have to get right right now is the economy.
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
56. Buy an assault rifle and stock up on food staples?
Are the knee jerk arch conservatives right even though they are wrong?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. I'm a bleeding-heart liberal, and I started doing just that 3 years ago
In a worst-case scenario, my family can relocate to my parent's family farm.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. A whole lot of liberals and other progressives are quite capable of defending themselves...


Our family has always had a food stash because we have always lived in hurricane country (coastal Florida for years, and now eastern NC). I've been adding to that some in recent months, though. I have no idea if this is going to be a 1980's style recession, a 1930's style depression, or an Argentina or Weimar Republic economic crisis, but having extra food is never a bad thing unless you let it go to waste. Just-in-time delivery and limited inventory may work OK if you're building cars in a stable economy, but sucks royally if you are talking about feeding your family in a crisis.

As to firearms, half of U.S. gun owners registered to vote are Dems and indies, and 80% are nonhunters. The meme that only conservatives own guns (particularly nonhunting guns) is a false one.

If you are going to buy a defensive firearm, a shotgun with extended magazine tube or a small-caliber autoloading rifle (aka "assault weapons) are indeed good choices. But if anyone does choose to buy a gun, I hope they also invest the time and training to learn how to use it safely, competently, and legally. A firearm is not a magic talisman.
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