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Nobel prize- winning economist says tear up all CDS and derivatives contracts and start over.

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 11:15 PM
Original message
Nobel prize- winning economist says tear up all CDS and derivatives contracts and start over.
Edited on Fri Mar-06-09 11:16 PM by girl gone mad
It's Friday, so this probably won't get much attention, but I think it's a compelling idea. Of course, the ISDA is completely against it.

Scholes Advises ‘Blow Up’ Over-the-Counter Contracts
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aNRppMJqgURA

March 6 (Bloomberg) -- Myron Scholes, the Nobel prize- winning economist who helped invent a model for pricing options, said regulators need to “blow up or burn” over-the-counter derivative trading markets to help solve the financial crisis.

The markets have stopped functioning and are failing to provide pricing signals, Scholes, 67, said today at a panel discussion at New York University’s Stern School of Business. Participants need a way to exit transactions and get a “fresh start,” he said.

The “solution is really to blow up or burn the OTC market, the CDSs and swaps and structured products, and let us start over,” he said, referring to credit-default swaps and other complex securities that are traded off exchanges. “One way to do that, through the auspices of regulators or the banking commissioners, is to try to close all contracts at mid-market prices.”

Scholes also recommended moving the trading of credit- default swaps, asset-backed securities and mortgage-backed securities to exchanges to allow for “a correct repricing” of the assets. The securities are currently traded between banks and investors, without any price disclosure on exchanges.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aNRppMJqgURA">More...
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. FWIW, I Agree Completely
There's not reasonable alternative. Anything else will simply worsen things.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. well duh...but i doubt it will be done
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. He's right.
I saw here that there are 750 trillion dollars of contracts like this. On each contract, there's a winner and loser. The way it's been going is that the loser goes broke and the government bails out the winner. So that would come out to 375 trillion, or over 100 times the annual budget. That's not possible and it's not right to even give them a little. Scholes is right. He's also the father of the modern derivatives industry, so he should know what's going on.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. k*r Dump the damn things! n/t
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. Then I say if we were to do this for Corporate America then
every, I mean every American (who wants it) should get a reset button on their credit ratings. They could start everyone who wants it at an acceptable level and it's up to them to maintain it. For those that have extremely high ratings they can keep them.

I know that people will respond to this and say but everyone is responsible for their own actions and this is true, but if you say that then that then that means that the banks and other corporate interests don't get do overs either.

Wall Street has been getting the world while consumers are strewn by the side of the road.

If Wall Street gets anything consumers should get the equivalent.
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. This would not be any favor to Corporate America
The proposal in the linked article doesn't call for any government bailout of these complicated financial instruments. Scholes's proposal is that existing contracts be closed "at mid-market prices", which I take to mean that there would be an objective assessment of their current value and the winners and losers would be recognized immediately.

The key is the second part of Scholes's proposal: that all future such trades be on a regulated exchange, rather than being handled privately (for lucrative fees).

One good indication that this is no giveaway to Wall Street is the industry opposition:

Scholes’ comments generated opposition from the International Swaps and Derivatives Association, the industry group that sets trading standards for the over-the-counter derivatives market. ISDA has more than 800 members, including dealers and funds that trade in the market. (from )


The point is that we need to end the old way of doing things -- specifically, we need any such contracts to be traded in a regulated public market -- and to get from here to there, we have to deal with the accumulated contracts that have already been traded. Scholes's suggestion is that the government step in and oversee their liquidation, in a way that no private entity could accomplish.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-10-09 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. The thing is though - Since we the taxpayers are the ones currently
Edited on Tue Mar-10-09 10:53 PM by truedelphi
Making good on the losses, that while it may not be "fair" that Wall Street would get out of their debts - but what else can we do?

Can we really be expected as a nation to be responsible for the whole enchilada? All 550 trillion dollars worth of CDO's, SIV's, and Credit Default Swaps? And if we are responsible for that whole enchilada, won't it prove even more disastrous than when Germany had to make reparations to the world for World War One?

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. Anything would be better than just throwing everything we've got into a bottomless pit
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's the retirement funds, stupid.
No, it's the price of houses, stupid.
No, it's the exaggerated wages, stupid.
No, it's the general economy, stupid.

Well, it's all that and having to tell banker/finance guys they really did not become rich.

Those small percentages were too numerous and on amounts higher than should have been.

Okay, rip 'em up. But, add in to follow what happened to the good money the CD...s replaced, and who took it.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. Misleading, ill-informed subject line. He said blow up derivatives "markets" not "contracts"
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 07:59 AM by HamdenRice
He is in no way advocating tearing up derivative or cds contracts. He's saying that the markets for them aren't functioning and that we need a new, public market for these derivatives to be traded.

In other words, he is saying that derivatives should be traded on something more like the New York Stock Exchange, where trade prices are instantly reported to all other traders, rather than privately (semi-secretly) traded or traded through the derivatives trading firms where no one knows what prices others are willing to pay.

That said, I do believe that about 90% of credit default swaps could be declared "unenforceable" and made simply to vanish by applying a basic principle of insurance law -- namely, that you have to have an insurable risk for an insurance policy to be something other than illegal gambling.

That means that I can buy collision insurance on my car because I have an "insurable interest" (an economic stake) in my car to ensure. But I can't buy collision insurance on your car because I don't have a stake and I would just be gambling, which is illegal in most states.

If the courts simply said that anyone holding a cds who does not also own the underlying credit (usually a bond) has simply bought a gambling contract which can't be enforced. But this would allow all those pension funds and other investors who bought cds to protect themselves to enforce their contracts.

That would eliminate about 90% of cds contracts, which would have an immense positive benefit to the financial markets, because the dynamic hedging of cds risk by issuers of cds contracts, is causing a huge amount of the volatility in the financial markets and some of the excessive downward pressure on the prices of securities.

Btw, Scholes was the discoverer of the ultra important "Black-Scholes equations" which for the first time permitted traders and investment banks to "price options" accurately. It was the Black-Scholes formula that enabled the creation of true hedge funds, which use derivatives to make hedged trades that take advantage of tiny imperfections in the market prices of securities and the put and call options based on them.

As such, he is hardly in favor of tearing up all derivatives. They were and are his life's work.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. are there lawsuits based on calling them "gambling"?
Honestly, that is a heck of an idea. The whole thing is that these slipped under the regulatory agencies. So, if they weren't regulated, and there was no insurable interest, I am thinking that argument actually should, or could, work. Not enforceable!

It is a legal battle akin to "Produce the note."
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. I don't think so yet.
There was some speculation that some bankruptcy court trying to settle the assets of one of the defunct investment banks might raise this as a defense to someone presenting a cds claim. So far, I haven't heard of it happening.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Wrong, HamdenRice.
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 04:18 PM by girl gone mad
"The markets have stopped functioning and are failing to provide pricing signals, Scholes, 67, said today at a panel discussion at New York University’s Stern School of Business. Participants need a way to exit transactions and get a “fresh start,” he said. The “solution is really to blow up or burn the OTC market, the CDSs and swaps and structured products, and let us start over” he said, referring to credit-default swaps and other complex securities that are traded off exchanges.

That's what's known as a direct quote.

Scholes is saying the parties should settle on "mid-market prices", the contracts should be destroyed and, separately, trading of CDSs, asset-backed securities and MBSs should be moved to exchanges in the future.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. "blow up or burn the OTC market"
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 05:07 PM by HamdenRice
"The markets have stopped functioning and are failing to provide pricing signals"

The cited articel also says:

'Scholes also recommended moving the trading of credit- default swaps, asset-backed securities and mortgage-backed securities to exchanges to allow for “a correct repricing” of the assets. The securities are currently traded between banks and investors, without any price disclosure on exchanges.'


Now, pray tell, deary, how could he be advocating "moving the trading of" these derivatives "to exchanges" to allow for "correct pricing" if he wanted them to disappear via the tearing up of the contracts? What exactly would be being traded if the derivatives themselves were "blown up"?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Reading your own posts and the stuff you quote in them is always very helpful! Understanding the stuff you quote is priceless!

:hi:

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Is this really that complicated for you?
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 06:23 PM by girl gone mad
Perhaps you would like to lecture us all again on how derivatives aren't a big deal because you said so?

It's right there in black and white, HamdenRice. Scholes solution is to destroy the contracts that exist now, then start again. All I did is replace the phrase "blow up" with the phrase "tear up". Who knows why that set you off on this bizarre and irrelevant rant.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. In other news, Nobel Peace Prize winner Desmond Tutu urges return to apartheid
and the use of aggressive war to solve international issues, and Nobel Literature prize winner Toni Morrison demands that all libraries be closed and their books burned and "blown up."

:sarcasm:

No, Scholes, the guy who won the Nobel economics prize for pricing derivatives is not advocating we "tear up all CDS and derivatives contracts".

He wants them to be "settled" at an appropriate price, not torn up, and then wants a new public, regulated trading/pricing system for them to be created.

It can't be any clearer from the article you yourself have cited.
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. "and let us start over"
To my thinking, it appears Scholes wants to revalue the whole mess and settle what exists. What is valueless is trashed and what is worth something is settled out. Cleaning up the balance sheets. No one would have to guess what AIG is worth. Or GM. Or Goldman Sacks.

Then begin again with regulated markets determining the value of the CDS and all the other unregulated goodies the insiders get to use to cover their bets. May be there would be a pass line on the side where I could bet with the house.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. "revalue the whole mess and settle what exists" - Exactly
"Then begin again with regulated markets" - Exactly again.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-11-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. You say this:
Edited on Wed Mar-11-09 05:18 PM by truedelphi
That said, I do believe that about 90% of credit default swaps could be declared "unenforceable" and made simply to vanish by applying a basic principle of insurance law -- namely, that you have to have an insurable risk for an insurance policy to be something other than illegal gambling.

Also, couldn't it be that since it was not an insurance policy but rather a "Credit Default Swap" that was issued, and since the Insurance regulating agencies failed to offer oversight, meaning that they agreed that "Credit Default Swaps" were not insurance, why should they be protected as insurance? Either they are or they aren't -and apparently they never were till they began to be overwhelmed by the downturn in the market.



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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. I whole-heartedly agree. Let the bankers and their shareholders drown
in their toxic waste. K and R
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
19. What could these guys possibly know it?
Oh... wait a minute...

Too bad that this would hurt the parasite class.
:kick: & Too late to Rec

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quadropusrex Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-10-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. CDS's are weapons of financial mass destruction
They need to be phased out, NOW. All the existing
speculator-held contracts need to be nullified and their
monies returned. All legitimate bond-holder policies need to
allowed to expire and no renewals allowed except by actual,
certified bond holders. 

As it stands, the U.S.A. might currently be in a state of
siege with CDS's as the trebuchets of choice. Here's why:

Imagine if anybody could take out life insurance on you and
make a million dollars if you died. And the sicker you got,
the more people  bought life insurance against your declining
health - 1,000's of  policies. Would you worry for your life?
And what about the insurance companies that issued all these
policies? Would they worry whether they could pay out all
these life insurance claims on just one person
dying?

This is what happened with Credit Default Swaps (CDS's) where
insurance against a company defaulting on its bonds could be
bought for a fraction of a corporate bond's values -- say a $1
billion insurance policy could be had for $20 million a year.

Seems simple enough except it wasn't regulated. Dishonest
companies took advantage of this lack of regulation and sold
more insurance than they could pay out as claims, which would
be insurance fraud were it not for the lack of a regulator.

This means the world's financial system is in the hole for $60
trillion because AIG, Merrill, Citi & a few other firms
ran their operations like a bunch of mad Ponzi-like bookies
selling bond insurance against business bond defaults. They
sold these CDS insurance policies to speculators who didn't
even hold the bonds, where neither party was in any way
related to the bond or related collateral, buying &
selling betting rights on the ability of the actual
bond-issuing company to meet its payments. Perhaps these fake
policies were made out of thin air by mutual consent, and
buyer beware. Maybe it was all a big accident.

But here's the problem: There are $60 Trillion worth of CDS's
outstanding. There's a problem with this. Never mind neither
Merrill Lynch, AIG nor any of the other shady operations that
overissued bond policies can actually honor these 3rd-party
policies (they can't), the actual originating bond values only
amount to $5 Trillion. That's right, CDSs face values were
sold on the order of 12 times the actual
value of the actual bond values with nothing to back them up,
with no intention of ever honoring the obligations.

That is what I would call criminal. I think I just found the
point where I can define a clear and descriptive anger about
this. We - the American taxpayer - are on the hook for fraud,
massive fraud, a scale of theft that defies belief.

If the American economy fell into a real depression and there
began a widespread trend of defaults in corporate bonds, the
companies that issued the CDS's - Merrill, AGI, Citi - either
wouldn't be able to honor them and will default on the CDS's
holder's claims OR if the USA were to somehow try to honor the
claims it would oblige every American to pay for the
destruction of our own country.

But these CDS policies were *bought* with real money - real
BIG MONEY - paid by speculators. This is the kind of money
that expects a return. Why pay insurance on something you
don't own, that doesn't belong to you, if you don't expect to
file a claim? It's as though the speculators expected the
world to fall into a vast, huge slump and they expected to
clean up, big time.

Whether the obligations are worth the paper they're printed on
is another matter. However, looking back to the example of the
peril of multiple indemnities issued against one person, I
have to speculate that should the scenario ever arise where
claims were made on these CDS policies, it'd be tantamount to
forcing the citizens of a nation to pay off a rigged bet to an
army of gamblers who all held a vested interest in the
destruction of America.

In this case I find it hard to describe this degree of fraud
as anything other than the equivalent of high treason and that
level of speculation in any other terms but as the functional
equivalent of an act of war.

Thinking further, the only way to cancel these fraudulent
contracts is to either 1) let the CDS-issuing companies go
bankrupt or 2) nationalize them. If you're saying "Fine,
let them go bankrupt," you're not alone. The problem is
that financial analysts and bankers believe that either event
-- bankruptcy or nationalization - could start a run on the
U.S. dollar, leading to massive devaluation of the U.S.
dollar. The outcome would be almost certain hyperinflation and
a real depression.

In other words the holders of these CDS's hold a great deal of
power over the U.S.A. with these obligations. We - as
individual citizens and as a nation - didn't take these
dangerous bets but we're on the hook for them. Were these
CDS's to be owned by the wrong people the U.S.A. could be
quietly extorted and our foreign policy steered. In other
words our financial people may have unwittingly signed over
our futures to some people who may a vested interest in
driving American policy their way.

Or worse.

When oil commodity futures went sky high it was briefly
mentioned that this was accomplished by a handful of Mid East
sovereign funds cornering oil futures -- players completely
divorced from the actual commodity use of oil. It was an
anomaly, atypical and unprecedented. That sudden and wild
surge in oil prices - unrelated to supply and demand - drove
the U.S. economy faster and deeper into the vulnerable state
that it is now in.

Again, these CDS policies were bought by big investors and
speculators who expect a return. They didn't fork over
hundreds of millions of dollars for NO REASON, so they
anticipated that there were deep pockets backing up their
ability to file a bond default claim. Why pay insurance on
something you don't own, that doesn't belong to you, if you
don't expect to file a claim? If they hadn't expected to make
a killing down the road they would've never spent the money
betting on somebody else's bankruptcy.

In other words there were some very big players that might
still be hoping to score a huge payout on a minor investment.

Or this was all just a big coincidence. I'm thinking of a new
book that Robert Ludlum could write: "The Caliphate
Coincidence."

But who holds these CDS's? The U.S.A. is under siege, but by
whose hand? If someone in the U.S. government knows then why
aren't they telling us? And if we don't actually yet know, is
anyone in our government actually trying to find out?

see also:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/extras/radio/365_transcript.pdf

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1263

After reading pages 9 - 19, I'm still trying to digest what
I've read.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-11-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. Abill to regulate Credit Default Swaps is now in the House Financial Services Committee:
If you think CDSs should not be allowed or should at least be regulated let barnie Frank (Chairman) know. MOre about this legislation and Links provided here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x59010



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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-11-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. CDS and derivatives need to be outlawed!
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