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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:02 AM
Original message
The Second Coming of the Electric Car
http://www.plentymag.com/blogs/edge/2007/11/the_second_coming_of_the_elect.php

The electric car is the zombie of transportation: never quite dead but not exactly dancing a hornpipe either. GM took a run at it in the 90’s with the famously-killed EV1, but with the Ed Begley Jr. fan club a limited market and the cheap gas party still going strong, the time wasn’t yet right. However, as new technology enhances the range and performance of electrics, and oil prices close in on a hundred bucks a barrel, all kinds of competitors are jumping into the fray. Here are some eco-mobiles you might be parking in your driveway in the not too distant future:

If you need to buy right now, consider the Zenn, manufactured right here in my home town of Toronto. It’s kind of cute, but with a maximum speed of 25 mph and a range of 35 miles, it’s pretty much a golf cart on steroids. Still, for trips in the immediate neighborhood, it will do the job with zero emissions.

Much sexier, pricier, and less obtainable is the Tesla roadster. This electric sports car has gotten a lot of press lately, even though not a single production model has rolled off the assembly line. If and when it hits the street, the company claims the vehicle will be able to accelerate to 60mph in 4 seconds, and hum along for about 245 miles without recharging. If you want to sign up for one, it’ll cost you about 100 grand but you can be smug in the knowledge that you’re on the same waiting list as George Clooney. The first Tesla drivers are scheduled to get their vehicles in early 2008.

Of course, as the public mindset gets greener, the big automakers are looking to get back into the game. They have considerable advantages over the new entrepreneurial companies—existing manufacturing facilities, supplier relationships, sales infrastructure, etc.—so it’s quite possible that an existing car company could wind up with the first mass-market electric vehicle. Chevrolet, for example, is presently working on a concept vehicle descriptively called the Volt. According to Chevy, the Volt will be able to run not only on electricity but on gas, biodiesel, or E85, although personally I’d be interested in a coffee-powered version so my car and I could refuel from the same source. Intriguing for sure, but sadly Chevy doesn’t expect this versatile vehicle to be available until 2011 or 2012.

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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Test drove a Zenn a couple months ago.
It was fun. If they could get the range to 100 and the speed up to @45 - 50, I'd grab one.
Whatever happened to the altairnano battery? Sounded like it could be the answer to range.
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scarpa43 Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
2. I have a couple honest questions

To be honest I have done zero research on these cars but these questions always come to mind:

1. If you have to charge it every night, how expensive is that on your electricity bill?
2. What runs the power plants? If they burn fossil fuels how does the fuel used to create the electricty to charge the car compare to the fuel used to power a conventional car, say a Honda Civic or Accord?
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. why is it
none of these cars seem to have the obvious- a pv roof?
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. because the cost benefit ratio isn't good.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Nowhere near enough energy density.
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 01:49 AM by TheWraith
An electic car requires roughly 130 watt-hours to go one mile, taking the high-powered Tesla Roadster's example. Let's be generous and say 100 for an electric sedan. Now suppose that you put PV on the roof of the car--ten square feet of it. At a solid 15% efficiency, that's 150 watts at peak. That means that under ideal circumstances, assuming that it were parked in direct sun, a PV roof would generate enough power to drive a full 6-10 miles every day. That might be useful for a neighborhood runabout mini-vehicle, but when you're talking about full size cars with 150 to 200 mile ranges, it's not significant enough to bother with the cost of collecting that energy and converting it to a voltage suitable for charging. Particularly not when you're talking about a power savings of 10 cents a day or less.

Tesla Motors offers an option of a PV roof for your garage, which is larger and therefore generates a lot more power, but it's still trivial in comparison to what the car would typically demand for anything other than short commutes.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. thanks for the numbers
hopefully, as things improve, that will be more feasible, also. i was not thinking about it so much to charge the vehicle as to save you when you have driven to the edge of nowhere, and your battery dies. not that i think anyone would be smart enough to drive an electric car and not know what the limits are. just that shit happens, and it's good to have a backup.
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Merlot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. One thing about charging a car is that it's usually done at night
When there is less demand for electricity. So it doesn't put demands on the grid.

As for the amount of emmisions produced by a car versus the fuel used by the electircty plant to generate electricity, I can only guess that the electricity plant is more efficient than the car is at burning fuel.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. I've done an analysis of the CO2 emission of electric cars based on the grid generation mix
It's available here: Electric Cars and Carbon Dioxide.

The conclusion is that if your grid is powered primarily by hydro and/or nuclear they are a very good idea. If the grid is mainly coal-fired, the CO2 advantage goes down, though it may still be worth doing (see the last half dozen comments linked to the article). The general adoption of BEVs still hinges mostly on cost, range, speed and utility, though.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. My neighbor has one he converted and has a separate meter on his charger
and the last time I asked him he said that he was paying about 80 cents to travel 50 miles
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-07-07 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Not very expensive at all.
Edited on Wed Nov-07-07 01:50 AM by TheWraith
Taking the Tesla Roadster as an example (because that's the one I know figures for) it takes about 133 watt-hours to move the car 1 mile. Where I live, electricity is $0.12 per kilowatt-hour. Now, that means that to drive 23 miles, it would cost you 40 cents with an electric car, compared to around $3 with a gas powered car. For the cost of 1 gallon of gas, you could drive 187 miles on an electric car.

As to the power plants, if you have any substantial greenhouse-neutral power--hydro, nuclear, wind--then that's already "clean." Yes, fossil fuel-based power production would reduce this, but larger conversion plants typically mean greater efficiency, and an electric car only uses 10% of the energy that a chemically-fuelled car does, because gasolene engines are inefficient. Larger plants mean greater efficiency, so even where the grid is still being driven by fossil fuels (mostly coal, not oil/gas) it's still better than your average car.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-06-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. I'm wondering if "second coming" is the metaphor they really want to pursue.
I'm torn between the "apocalypse" connotation and the "event predicted for 2 millenia, which has yet to materialize" connotation.
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