Molten salt solves solar storage problems

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2206622/molten-salt-solves-solar

Molten salt solves solar storage problems

US firms claim solar energy storage systems based on molten salt have reached commercial viability

James Murray, BusinessGreen, 07 Jan 2008

A new breed of solar farm capable of delivering energy on demand even when it is dark or overcast is poised for a major breakthrough this year, according to two US firms who claim they are ready to commercialise the technology.

Molten salt technologies capable of storing heat generated from solar panels so that the energy can be harnessed at any time have been subject to widespread trials over the past decade with several facilities having already proved successful.

But now two of the leading firms in the field, US Renewables Group (USRG) and UTC-subsidiary Hamilton Sundstrand, have committed to step up commercialisation of the technology and revealed that they are likely to begin work on a major new project before the end of the year.

"With oil at $60 a barrel, the commercial case for this technology was not that strong, but with it at $100 a barrel it is very strong indeed," explained Hamilton Sundstrand's Dan Coulom.

...

[jpak]

1. But this will never compete with the NJ molten salt breeder reactor

because the NJ molten salt breeder reactor doesn't exist...

:evilgrin:

[sakabatou]

2. And it'll be bad for the economy because the USA

needs her oil that provides money to terrorists...

[NNadir]

5. Um...um...um...

Deliberate ignorance kills just alike with unintentional ignorance.

The first straight up run of a molten salt reactor took place in 1966 at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. {i]It was experimental. It operated at 7.4 MW(th) for two months, meaning that it produced 38 TJ of energy in just two months.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bhoglund/mSR_Adventure.html

By contrast in 2007, cheered on my legions of "solar will save us legions" going back to the boring pedantic little twit Amory Lovins, who made a fortune in the corporate greenwashing business, solar electricity produced 0.06 Quads = 70 TJ.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/trends/table1.html

So it would seem that an experiment that one nuclear plant - a test plant - was able to produce 55% much energy as the entire solar industry in the United States was able to produce industrially in 2005, 39 years later.

Heckuva job "solar will save us" fundies. Heckuva job.

If you're totally ignorant and don't know shit about the subject about which you claim to speak, just make stuff up.

[Zachstar]

8. Very sad

Every time I do a bit of research.. I find so much technology and advancements in fission technology canned because of stupidly overblown fears.

So we suffer and die thanks to oil in the meantime.

So while these morons cherish their victory... The good fission technology died and whats left moved to little more than NAVY propulsion.

From what I am reading.. Had the industry just been left alone. We could have had TRIPLE the reactors with an actual place to safely store the waste.

[bananas]

13. The industry was killed by the 1973 oil embargo

Costs rose and electricity demand dropped - so plants were cancelled.
These things are expensive to build, when construction and financing costs rose while demand dropped, they turned into expensive boondoggles.

Here's a chart of oil prices - notice how it jumps in 1973:


See how new reactor orders dropped like a rock immediately after:


That's also when they started cancelling reactors on order and under construction.
Here's a list of cancelled reactors (pdf), look at the dates: 1974,1975,1976,...
http://www.nei.org/documents/U.S.%20Commercial%20Nuclear%20Power%20Reactors%20Canceled.pdf


Al Gore explained this when he testified before Congress last year:

(2:18:59) I'm not opposed to nuclear; I have deep questions about it, I'm concerned about it; I used to be enthusiastic about it.

Back when I represented Congressman Gordon's district, TVA had 21 nuclear power plants under construction; and then later I represented Oak Ridge where we're immune to the effects of nuclear radiation, you know (laughter) so I was very enthusiastic about it. But, but uh, 19 of those 21 plants were canceled, and I'm sure Bart gets the same questions I used to get about whether those partly finished cooling towers might be used for a grain silo ... but people are upset, still, that they have had to pay for 'em and not be able to get electricity for 'em ...

And I think the stoppage of the nuclear industry was really less due to Three Mile Island and Chernobyl and environmental concerns, and more due to the fact that after the OPEC oil crises of '73 and '79, the projection for electricity demand went from 7% annualized compounded, down to 1% and, and when energy prices are going up, the uncertainty over how much they can plan for also goes up.

Now electricity ought not follow the price of oil, but it does, because there's just enough, uh, fungibility between oil and coal on the margins that electricity chases oil. Now oil's back at $60 a barrel; where's it gonna be a year from now? We don't know, but the fact of the uncertainty is itself the reason why these utilities do not want to place all their chips in one large bet that doesn't mature for another fifteen years at a very expensive cost. The new generation, there may be smaller incremental power plants, standardized, safer, more reliable; perhaps we may get a solution to the long-term storage of waste issue -- I'm assuming we will; reactors are ... (chair interrupts at 2:20:52)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=463405&mesg_id=463693

[bananas]

15. Did you ever hear of WPPSS? It's pronounced "Whoops!"

Whoops

Slang for the Washington Public Power Supply System (WPPSS), which made the record books with the largest municipal bond default in history.

During the 1970s and 80s, the WPPSS financed the construction of five nuclear power plants through the issuance of billions of dollars worth of municipal bonds. In 1983, due to extremely poor project management, construction on a couple of plants was canceled, and the completion of construction on the remaining plants seemed unlikely. Consequently, the take-or-pay arrangements that had been backing the municipal bonds were ruled void by the Washington Supreme Court. As a result, the WPPSS had the largest municipal debt default in history.... Whoops!

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/whoops.asp

[bananas]

16. Very sad ... that you don't know history ... it's right there on the TVA website

http://www.tva.gov/heritage/hert_history.htm

1970s and 1980s

Significant changes occurred in the economy of the Tennessee Valley and the nation, prompted by an international oil embargo in 1973 and accelerating fuel costs later in the decade. The average cost of electricity in the Tennessee Valley increased fivefold from the early 1970s to the early 1980s. With energy demand dropping and construction costs rising, TVA canceled several nuclear plants, as did other utilities around the nation.

Energy conservation became an economic necessity for homeowners and businesses alike, and TVA became a national leader in promoting energy conservation.

To become more competitive, TVA began improving efficiency and productivity while cutting costs. By the late 1980s, TVA had stopped the rise in power rates and paved the way for a period of rate stability that would last for the next decade.

[jpak]

11. "Make stuff up" is what the NJ molten salt breeder reactor is all about

A figment of a sick deluded mind...

[eppur_se_muova]

6. Is there anyone who still can't use Wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor

Sounds like the problem with molten salt reactors is that they don't require any expensively machined fuel core elements -- so little profit to be made by selling supplies and/or maintenance.

Since it uses unfabricated fuel, basically just a mixture of chemicals, current reactor vendors don't want to develop it. They derive their long-term profits from sales of fabricated fuel assemblies.

... but would certainly be attractive to the utilities that run them:

With continuous reprocessing, a molten-salt-fueled reactor has more than 97% burn-up of fuel. This is very efficient, compared to any system, anywhere. Light water reactors burn up about 2% of fuel on a once-through fuel cycle (current practice, 2007).

Nothing's perfect, or without problems. But any reactor that has the potential to displace coal is worth a thorough evaluation.

[jpak]

12. NNadir has claimed repeatedly that he is a "scientist" and "invented" a molten salt breeder reactor

Many people bought into this nonsense.

That was my point

[bananas]

17. Morton Salt is better

It's Iodized!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=128003&mesg_id=128237

[NickB79]

3. Doesn't this have the same problems that experimental molten salt nuclear reactors had?

Like, the salt catching fire?

[OKIsItJustMe]

4. This is backed by a good deal of research

http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Energy/solarthermal/NSTTF/salt.htm

[Nihil]

9. That doesn't sound like a "no" then ...

... more of a "ummm, I don't want to talk about its weak points at the moment" ...

(FWIW, I think the idea in the OP is fine, I just wish everything was held
up to the same standard as nuclear is ...)

[eppur_se_muova]

7. Salt catching fire??? You need to post something to back that up.

Salt is used to extinguish fires in some circumstances, e.g. sodium or other "reactive metal" fires. Certain *types* of "salts" (not good old NaCl, or other halides) may well be flammable, but not something like the fluorides used in molten salt reactors.

This is fairly basic chemistry. Very easy to avoid flammable compounds if needed.

[phantom power]

10. At a guess, it might be confusion with molten *metal* reactors (used sodium).

[eppur_se_muova]

18. Oh, those only ignite on contact with water.

Quitcher whining. :evilgrin: Sodium is nasty stuff. I think molten sodium coolant is only used in submarines. x( I guess the job just wasn't dangerous enough, it needed a certain je ne sais quoi.

[Zachstar]

19. OLD Subs!

Mostly from the Soviet Union back in the day if I remember right.

They did not use salt they used liquid metal which resulted in QUITE a mess! Because the metal itself became radioactive.

A sub has to be quiet and has to house the reactor in a small space. So those old designs were no good.

Molten salt uses already reacted salts that are extremely difficult to break. Sodium is HIGHLY reactive in comparison.

Let us get away from the Sodium reactor comparisons please? This is a battery and not an energy producer.

[Vogon_Glory]

14. Are There Any Geo-Thermal Applications?

I wonder if this technology could be used in closed-cycle geothermal power-generating applications? I remember talking to a guy who used to supply components for geothermal power plants. He described it as a "dirty" technology, because the stuff that mixed with the injected water that was highly corrosive and often laced with toxic metals or compounds.

Geothermal might not play such a big role in US power generation, but it strikes me that geothermal would be a great boon for many Central American and Andean countries.