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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:45 AM
Original message
Brazilian Police Seize 1,300 Pounds Of Black Market Uranium Ore
SAO PAULO, Brazil — "Police have seized a load of uranium and thorium ore taken from a secret mine in the jungle in northern Brazil and destined for sale in the black market, an official said Tuesday.

Based on a lead from an informant, federal police seized 1,320 pounds of ore containing the radioactive metals in a pickup truck about 75 miles from Macapa, capital of Amapa state, near the mouth of the Amazon River. Police said they believed it was Brazil's first such case.

The Brazilian Nuclear Industries (INB) group, which produces nuclear fuel for atomic power plants, said the natural ore could not be used to make a nuclear bomb and the confiscated quantity did not inspire fear. "Judging by the quantity mentioned in reports and because it is ore, the material hardly has any commercial value," INB said. Police said they believed the shipment's owner had told the prospective buyer it had been refined to metal.

"We got a fax from the laboratory in Rio de Janeiro yesterday saying the cargo had significant levels of uranium and thorium," officer Luiz Carlos said, adding that the truck was seized last month."

EDIT

http://www.enn.com/news/2004-08-25/s_26688.asp
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Uranium and Thorium ore? Who would need unprocessed ...
... NNadir!

--bkl
Blow that whistle!
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Um...You'll have to ask Colin Powell this one.
Maybe there's something we want to steal in Brazil or maybe Colin's working on an attack on Iran (you know...they tried to steal Uranium in Brazil...) Niger didn't do a particularly credible job with Iraq being the Uranium acquistion threat. Brazil may be better at this sort of thing.

More likely than not this is just commercial theft for ordinary commercial processes.

It is actually not true that every theft of Uranium has to do with nuclear weapons, any more than it's true that every theft of oil products has to do with napalm.

Actually, one of the worst diasters involving the theft of radioactive materials occurred in Brazil, at Goiana, where a cancer treatment machine was stolen by illiterate thieves. The machine contained radioactive Cesium-137 and the thieves, after breaking open the platinum capsule containing it, thought it was the coolest thing they ever saw, since it glowed. They let their children play with it. Several of the thieves as I recall and several of their children died.
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LibLabUK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I remember that..
Edited on Wed Aug-25-04 11:38 AM by LibLabUK
"Actually, one of the worst diasters involving the theft of radioactive materials occurred in Brazil, at Goiana, where a cancer treatment machine was stolen by illiterate thieves."

Not quite. It was an illiterate junk dealer, he took the canister of powdered Caesium-137 home from a site of an old hospital he was picking over. He opened it up at home and irradiated himself, his wife and kids and managed to spread the radioactive powder all over his neighbourhood (shantytown). It wasonly a local doctor (actually a veterinarian), who was reasonably on the ball, that realised what was going on when he was seeing so many people with the symptoms of radiation sickness.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. An account of the disaster.
http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/CaseStudies/csgoiania.html

"In the early 1980's, "three doctors had owned the private downtown clinic...when they left , the doctors simply abandoned the radiotherapy machine and left the building to deteriorate without windows or doors.i

Two years later, the canister containing cesium-137 was found by scavengers. Accounts differ as to who found the canister and how it was opened. However, once the canister was pried open releasing its radioactive contents, tragedy ensued...


...Sometime around September 21, 1987, a lead canister containing 1400 curies of cesium-137 was opened launching the second largest nuclear accident after Chernobyl. ii The cesium from within the canister was a "luminous blue powder" which both children and adults rubbed on their bodies.i Six year old Leide das Neves Ferreira "rubbed the powder on her body so that she glowed and sparkled."iv She later ate a sandwich tainted with cesium powder from her hands; "she reportedly received five to six times the lethal dose for adults."ii The cesium was later parceled out to friends and family, spreading the contamination from the junkyard to homes around the city, although mainly contained within a localized area. The radioactive substance continued to contaminate the population for a week before Devair Ferreira finally reported to health authorities..."

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LibLabUK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It was a disaster alright...
Pretty dreadful situation...
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. This was not a theft
There is a large well regulated and well monitored legitimate international market for yellow cake for use in commercial reactors.

This material, however, was the product of a clandestine mining operation for the international uranium black market.

This market exists solely for the acquisition of uranium by interests bent on the clandestine production of nuclear weapons.

...and, from the article, it is apparently quite lucrative...

:nuke:




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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Oh please....
Do you know anything at all about nuclear weapons?

Why don't you instruct us? You can in fact look up how to build a nuclear weapon on the internet. (Frank Zappa voice) Here, let me help you: http://www.fact-index.com/n/nu/nuclear_weapon_design.html

Please be sure to mention the many thousands of nuclear weapons built and used by terrorists and the millions upon millions who have died from illicit nuclear weapons in the last 50 years, given that Uranium is as common an element as tin and that it is ubitquitous, and let's not forget this: Assembly instructions are readily available.

This sort of claim is proof of why Dick and George were able to get away with the idiot business of claiming that the "Niger Uranium purchase" was proof of Iraqi terrorism, because people are WILLFULLY ignorant of nuclear issues. They believe exactly this sort of nonsense it's much easier than it is to think and actually understand. One would never get away with such primitive scaremongering in an educated society. Unfortunately, even here on DU, we demonstrate time and time again that we are hardly an educated society.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. my oh my, your link makes it appear oh so difficult
to construct that atomic bomb.

personally, whenever i need to make one, i use this streamlined protocol:

http://www.qis.net/~jimjr/misc62.htm

and so, apparently, do al qaeda:

http://www.alternet.org/story/11935

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I never make nuclear weapons. I do however gather up discarded ones
I find in the forest and keep them around the house. The casings make nice planters for herbs and stuff. I'm looking to get rid of the plutonium cores, so I've asked my wife if I can build a radowsky reactor in the backyard. She's refused to commit thus far. I think she's holding out for molten salt.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. your wife appears to have great wisdom
even i can see the attractiveness of molten salt, especially with winter coming up - i'd imagine it'd be double plus good at de-iceing the driveway.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Pakistan, India, Israel, South Africa and North Korea
all had clandestine nuclear programs that collectively produced hundreds of nuclear weapons.

Several countries (Argentina, Brazil, Iraq, Libya and possibly Iran) have or had embryonic nuclear weapons programs as well.

Pakistani nuclear scientists have clandestinely provided Iran, Libya and possibly North Korea with uranium gas centrifuges and other equipment needed to produce weapons grade uranium.

It is clear that a large and lucrative international market for uranium enrichment equipment does exist.

...and the Brazilian incident clearly indicates there is a lucrative clandestine trade in uranium as well.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the nuclear proliferation issue or make light of its consequences.

Even a "limited" nuclear war in the Middle East, the Korean Peninsula or South Asia has the potential to "kill millions".



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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Really? India, Pakistan, and South Africa buy clandestine Uranium?
Are you aware that each of these countries have native deposits of this element and that India has some of the world's largest Thorium reserves?

You think they steal these elements to titillate anti-nuclear activists who BTW never remark on the number of people who were actually killed by oil-derived products? Quick: how many people died in fire bombings in the twentieth century? Which air attacks killed more people: Hiroshima or Toyko? Nakasaki or Dresden? Nakasaki and Dresden? Where is the outrage? Where is the impetus, since we habitually confuse war machinery with commercial machinery, to ban petroleum refining and the cladestine trade in petroleum products because of Dresden and Tokyo and Vietnam and Cambodia and Hamburg and Kuwait?

For information purposes, the amount of fissionable weapons grade Uranium in 1.3 tons of Uranium, obtainable with a huge and expensive expenditure of energy, is about 4 kg. For a very skilled weapons designer having access to huge amounts of cash (as in billions of dollars) this theoretically is enough to make one bomb. Impossible? No. Very, very, very improbable? Yes.

Do more important issues face the planet than a few people passing around the ores of a very commone element? Most definitely yes!
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Pakistan and India are NOT important producers of uranium
but they have a great demand for uranium for their respective nuclear programs.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf23.htm

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/edcoursesyllabi/pk-weapons.html

Israel and Iran also have a great demand for yellowcake but only meager (at best) domestic supplies of uranium.

Collectively, these countries represent a substantial market for illicitly produced uranium.

...and where there is a demand - there is a supply...

Pakistan, India, Israel, India, Iran, China, North Korea and, until recently, Libya are part of a large complex clandestine network that supplies ballistic missile technology, uranium, equipment and technical support for covert nuclear weapons programs in the Middle East and North Korea.

North Korea, China and FSU countries have covertly supplied uranium to Iran.

North Korea secretly sold substantial quantities of UF6 to Libya.

Iran covertly obtained large numbers of uranium gas centrifuges from Pakistan.

India has offered to sell Iran 15 MW natural uranium heavy water reactors that can be used to produce plutonium, and supplied technical support to other Iranian nuclear programs.

In the 1970's and South Africa and Israel secretly collaborated on their respective nuclear weapons programs.

South Africa supplied Israel with hundreds of tons of yellowcake for its Dimona reactor and received substantial technical support for its nuclear weapons program in return - (note: this allowed SA to build 6 gun-type uranium bombs in the 1970's).

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EH30Df02.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18170-2003Dec20?language=printer

http://membres.lycos.fr/tthreat/article37.htm

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/rsa/nuke/

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Israel/Isrsa497.txt

http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/eng/miscdocs/200110_e.html

Finally, nuclear weapons are indeed true weapons of mass destruction any claim to the contrary is just plain nonsense.







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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Everyone agrees that nukes are WMDs. NNadir is saying that
the number of people who have been killed by nukes is small, compared to the number of people who have been killed by conventional weapons.

Conventional weapons owe their existence to fossil fuels, but nobody seriously talks about banning fossil fuels, even though they have been used to kill far more people in history than nuclear weapons.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Sigh...
Look, if anyone who lives in a country bordering seawater really, really, really, really wants Uranium or Thorium, they can refine it from seawater, which happens to contain about three billion tons of the Uranium and probably much more Thorium. Early in the nuclear era, when Uranium was still thought to be a rare element (which it actually is not) the Japanese explored doing exactly that: Obtaining it from seawater. The main problem with obtaining Uranium from seawater is plain dumb economics. Uranium mined from ores typically costs less than $20 a kilo whereas Uranium obtained from seawater costs about $200-300/kg.

I'm sure that Dick Cheney and Colin Powell are grateful for this hysteria about Uranium trafficking, but Iran, like most large countries on the surface of the planet has significant Uranium reserves like it or not:

"Iran Mining Uranium, Greatly Expanding Nuclear Facilities
Paul Kerr

In a televised speech, Iranian President Mohammad Khatami announced February 9 that Iran has started mining uranium near the city of Yazd and is developing the facilities necessary for a complete nuclear fuel cycle. Khatami’s speech, in which he argued that Iran needs to be able to control the entire nuclear fuel cycle in order to generate electricity, rekindled fears that Iran may be trying to develop nuclear weapons.

Khatami enumerated the steps Iran is taking to develop a complete fuel cycle. He stated that a facility to produce uranium oxide—or “yellow cake”—is under construction in the same province as the uranium reserves..."

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_03/iran_mar03.asp

This business of "yellow cake" that you and Colin Powell find so magical is a rather old business. Way back in 1951, the US Atomic Energy Commission commissioned two authors, Joseph Katz of the Argonne National Laboratory and Eugene Rabinowitz of the University of Illinois to publish a 595 page tract entitled appropriately enough "The Chemistry of Uranium." The book may still be available from Dover Books, which I am told never takes items in its catalogs out of print. In any case, I happen to be holding my own copy of this work from my home library. There is a whole chapter on the subject of Uranium oxides, which was old news more than half a century ago.

Your point is? Maybe you have some magical formula whereby nuclear technology can be put back in the bottle?

It happens that the only feasible technology for the elimination of nuclear weapons involves the complete destruction of highly fissionable materials, in particular, isotopically pure, or nearly isotopically pure Plutonium-239. For technical reasons having to do with the neutron poisoning properties of fission products, it is not possible to completely fission all of the Plutonium of this nature in nuclear reactors. One can, however, create a mixture of Plutonium isotopes with such problematic isotopic composition to make all but the most advanced nuclear weapons engineer completely insane with the difficulty of the problem. For this reason, with the intelligent use of commercial nuclear technology, greatly reduce the risks of nuclear war. It is however, physically impossible to render the eliminate all possible means of creating a nuclear weapon without destroying all of the Uranium and Thorium on the planet. This last option, in turn is only possible if one builds lots of nuclear reactors and uses them. In that case nuclear war will become impossible in about 3000 years, with the somewhat dubious side effect of rendering the planet free of the vast majority of it's radioactivity.

Therefore we see that the opponents of nuclear power are not only completely indifferent to the maiming and killing of millions each year world wide in service to the unsustainable and criminal fossil fuels industry, but that they are also standing in the way of the only technology that can effectively create a means of nuclear disarmament, that being nuclear power plants.

Crying and gasping every time a misleading Colin Powell like piece of bloviating media crap with the word "Uranium" in it will NOT do anything about the probability or possibility of nuclear war. I would and do argue that in fact this sort of thing helps POTENTIATE the risk of nuclear war, by furthering the potential of tin horn shit-for-brains dictator school dropouts of the Bush-Powell-Cheney ilk to pull the wool over the eyes of an increasingly credulous public.

People who think, and I would have to include such political luminaries as Bill Clinton and Al Gore in this subset of human beings, recognize the link between nuclear disarmament and nuclear energy. This is why Bill and Al quietly (so as not to disturb the paranoid) worked closely with the Russians to fund studies of the physics problems of fissioning Plutonium in pressurized water reactors. Bill Clinton and Al Gore have brains. I note that this rather wise investment in peace and prosperity, this "beating of swords into plowshares" has been defunded by the less than inspiring repukes. In spite of the confusion of our national "leaders" and their nuke paranoid apologists and cheer leading for a dunderhead approach to nuclear information, the Russians have nonetheless proceeded with the development of a nuclear disarmament potential of commercial nuclear power. They are currently working to run a Radowsky type plutonium fissioning partially Thorium fueled Pressurized Water Reactor. This should be up and running by 2006.

I'd like to close with a link to a picture of these beautiful "nuclear weapons" which contain 4 grams Uranium each. Think of it, if the Isrealis buy out the world's collection of Fiestaware we're all doomed.

http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer%20products/fiesta.htm




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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. $200-300/kg... really, that doesn't seem prohibitively expensive.
That seems almost insignificant, compared to the overall cost of running a nuclear reactor.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Iran does NOT have sufficient uranium resources
to support its proposed nuclear power program.

Iranian uranium resources are estimated to be <1500 metric tonnes (U concentrate).

The most reasonable estimate is 461 metric tonnes.

http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/publications/reports/ser/uranium/uranium.asp

(scroll way down)

To put that in perspective, a typical US pressurized water reactor consumes ~120 metric tonnes of U3O8 per year.

Iran will have to import substantial quantities of uranium to support its reactor programs - and much more if it is seeking to produce nuclear weapons.

Furthermore...

Concentrating uranium from seawater is energy intensive and would be an environmental disaster.

The concentration of elemental uranium in seawater is ~3.3 µg per L.

To satisfy current power reactor demand, the US would have to process ~5,800 cubic kilometers of seawater each year.

To put that in prospective, the mean annual discharge of the Mississippi River is 536 cubic kilometers.

Extracting uranium from the equivalent of 10+ Mississippi Rivers each year would adversely affect coastal waters on an unimaginable scale.

Large scale extraction uranium from sea water?

A bad idea any way you look at it.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Ion exchange resins?
Use them all the time for desalting seawater samples, removing iron from seawater, isolating humic and fulvic acids and in liquid chromatography (middle school science fair projects - LOL!)

The quantities of ion exchange resin required for large-scale extraction of uranium from seawater would be enormous - cubic kilometers per year.

It ain't gonna happen.

****

"In fact, more than 97% of what goes into a nuclear reactor comes out completely unchanged."

Wrong.

This assumes 100% burn-up of 235U.

This is impossible.

The build-up of fission products within the fuel pellets eventually halts fission reactions.

Fuel burn-ups of 235U are typically <50%.

97% remains unchanged???

It's more like 98-99% depending on reactor design and plant capacity factors.

Oh well.....







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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. What am I misreading here?
NNadir says MORE THAN 97% of what goes into a reactor comes out unchanged, you disagree and say it's actually 98-99% comes out unchanged. So aren't you just reaffirming what NNadir said?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. There was a bizarre misrepresentation of my previous post
A typical US pressurized water reactor requires ~120 metric tonnes of U3O8 each year to replace spent fuel.

That statement was twisted to imply that reactors somehow "consume" uranium - like logs burning in a fireplace or some such nonsense.

It was then stated that "In fact, more than 97% of what goes into a nuclear reactor comes out completely unchanged".

Which is wrong for the reasons I gave in response.

Fresh light water reactor fuel contains ~3% 235U.

If all the 235U underwent fission (100% burn up), then the total mass of the fuel would decrease by ~3% (i.e., ~97% remaining).

Not all the 235U undergoes fission, however, due to the accumulation of fission products (which absorb neutrons required to sustain the chain reaction).

It is impossible to achieve 100% burn up of U235 in light water reactors.

Typically only half of the 235U in fresh reactor fuel undergoes fission. The remainder is discharged in spent fuel.

So ~98-99% of the original uranium load is discharged as spent fuel - not 97%.

Seems like a minor point, but it isn't - especially when one is accused of not knowing "doodly squat" about reactor nucleonics...
























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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I can see it now
Terrorists thought they could just get two big boulders of unrefined uranium ore, smash them together, and BOOM!!. Um, no, that's not how it works. First you need to refine the ore using highly sophisticated equipment that is not that easily aquired. Then you need to enrich it, again using hard-to-obtain equipment. You need to process many, many TONS of ore to obtain enough uranium for even small nuclear bomb. The additional thorium in it would be virtually useless as weapons material. They would have needed many more shipments of this size, along with years worth of refining and enrichment, to obtain enough enriched uranium to build even a small warhead. FINALLY, you need to build the actual bomb itself. While this final task doesn't sound too hard, realize that 60 yrs after bombing Hiroshima, only a dozen or so countries around the world have successfully designed a working nuclear bomb. It is MUCH harder to do than most people realize.

BTW, nowhere in the article does it say this is yellowcake ore, simply uranium ore. From what I've read, yellowcake is a special type of uranium ore with much higher than normal concentrations. The article seems to imply this was not yellowcake ore.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Refining uranium ore into yellowcake is not technically difficult
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 11:53 AM by jpak
and uranium doesn't necessarily need to be enriched to produce weapons grade fissile material.

North Korea employed small (5 MWe) natural (unenriched) uranium gas-cooled graphite moderated reactors to produce plutonium for its nuclear weapons program.

They may have produced enough plutonium for several Hiroshima-sized bombs - without using enriched uranium.

North Korea is also part of a vast multi-state clandestine network trading in uranium, nuclear weapons production equipment and ballistic missile components.

The principal broker in network is/was Abdul Quadeer Khan - the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb.

The good doctor Khan did a brisk trade in these goods with Libya, Iran and North Korea.

The Brazilian incident revealed that the clandestine trade nuclear materials is not limited to Middle East and South and East Asia...

...and I would not be so quick to dismiss this incident as trivial.


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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Oh yeah and...
"and uranium doesn't necessarily need to be enriched to produce weapons grade fissile material."

Oppenheimer, Fermi, Teller, Sakharov, et al could have saved a few hundreds of billions of dollars in costs with your expertise.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. The Manhattan Project sought to produce both uranium and plutonium bombs
At the time, It was unclear which was the most promising path to pursue - so they built both types of weapons.

BTW: money was no object.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Is this some kind of revelation?
I'd guess, even given the poor state of history education, that they still teach this in high school.

And your point is?

What on earth does this have to do with the 1300 pounds of stolen Brazilian mixed Uranium and Thorium ore?
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Wilber_Stool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. Lets see, 1300 lbs of ore,
that would fit in a pickup truck. How much yellow cake could be made form that? About a couple of table spoons. Maybe. It should only take them a 100 years or so to make bomb.
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