Cost of a New Car >= Cost of home sized solar power system

[Ready4Change]

I was thinking about this the other day. Very few new cars bought in the USA cost less than $15,000. A huge number are in the $20k's, and in my area of the east coast I'd say $30+ is more the rule.

Let's say most people keep a new car for about 5 years. During that time they pay for oil changes, fill the tank once a week, pay insurance and registration and parking fees, etc. Unless that car is for business, they never EVER consider how long it will take for that car to pay for itself.

Now, say one were to choose to keep their 5 year old car for another 5 years. You could take most of what you would have paid for a new car and instead install a substantial solar power system on your home. During the next 5 years you could pay off the loan needed to buy that system. Plus, during that same 5 years, that system would reduce your bills enough to pay off between 25% and 50% of that loan. And you don't have to fill the gas tank, or take it in for servicing, or replace the tires, or pay (as much) insurance.

What I'm getting at is this: Compared to a car, a residential solar power system is pretty cheap.

So, why is everyone so convinced that these things are outrageously expensive?

[aquart]

1. We're none of us getting new cars for a while.

But a serious government would knock 90% of the price off the solar panels and make sure we all got off our asses and installed them.

[Ready4Change]

4. Granted, if buying a new car isn't an option, then this doesn't apply.

I've been there, where despite the rising cost of maintenance on an older vehicle, the cost of a new one is prohibitive. In that economic situation, I fully understand.

I also understand, in that my home isn't well oriented for solar. A big hill behind me and trees which provide lots and lots of shade. Nice for cooling bills, not so good for solar. :(

As a counterpoint, however, In my neck of the woods I'm surrounded by folk who constantly swap cars in order to make fashion statements. Single persons driving new shiny SUVS to work each day. People with latest model BMWs or Mercedes. It's rare around here anymore to see a rusted out heap. Yet the same people who drop $40k on a leather interiored daily commuting car balk at install solar PVs costing half as much at the onset, and which will pay for themselves over their lifetime, thus becomeing, essentially, FREE. Many of them live in McMansion developments, built on farmland, with no trees to speak of.

These people have the money. Why are they convinced it's 'too expensive' for them?

[Mojorabbit]

2. I spent around

two grand before it was done on a solar freezer including battery, panels, and installation and got an estimate of almost ten grand for a system to power my water pump. I can't imagine what it would cost to do my whole house.

[Ready4Change]

5. $10,ooo for a water pump?

That must be one heck of a water pump. At that price I'm guessing you're considering a battery backup array. That tends to bump up the price a bit. But still, $10,000 just to power a single pump? If you're hiring contractors I'd suggest getting another estime.

$10,000 should get a pretty good grid intertied home system. It's at the low end for an off-grid system, unless you're REALLY good on reducing your energy demands. But those would do quite a bit more than power a single pump, I'd think.

[Mojorabbit]

11. I thought it was over the top

myself and only wanted it for an emergency. There is not a lot of choice around here re solar installers unless you are looking at solar water heaters. There the selection of contractors is prety good. I am opting for a deep well hand pump instead.
I am hoping to someday go totally off grid.

[malakai2]

3. Let's see

What if the person in question rents? What if the person doesn't buy new cars because he can't afford them? Lots of questions come to mind. If it were subsidized to such an extent that everybody could get one, great. Hopefully the committee writing that bill handles the idea with a little more forethought than was given the ethanol handouts so that we can avoid "unforeseen" complications. In the interim, wouldn't we be better off retrofitting homes for greater efficiency, lowering our thermostats in winter (65F would work for most people), removing our air conditioners altogether, reducing or eliminating unnecessary appliance use (dishwashers, clothes dryers), and replacing necessary appliances with more efficient models?

[Ready4Change]

6. Many good points.

A renter generally won't be able to purchase such a system. And if it existed I imagine the landlord would get the benefits, not the renter.

A reply above was about persons who can't afford new cars. An understandable circumstance.

I don't see efficiency of homes and solar as opposed alternatives. I see them as enhancing each other. Yes, we'd be very well served by increasing the efficiency of our homes. Even solar fanatics agree that efficiency steps should always be taken first, as that often decreases the size of the solar array needed later.

Still, in my state (MD) in 2007 people bought some 380,000 new cars, at an average price of $26,000 each. That's a lot of new cars in a single year. The average used car purchase price was almost $9,000. That, right there, could have been over 300,000 $15,000 solar installations.

The numbers give me hope. It says to me that, when people wake up, we can make a transition pretty darn quick to a point that would substantially reduce our regions power demands.

[losthills]

12. The landlord can afford it.

And can be mandated to do it if he wants to continue living off the fruits of other people's labors.

[One_Life_To_Give]

13. You know the landlord?

While some make a tidy sum, and a few make an outrageous amount. There will be many who are only getting Captial Appreciation. And the joy of paying the mortgage wether they receive rent or not.

[losthills]

15. In my opinion they're all parasites.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. Dishwashers and clothes dryers are not necessities?

The water that comes out of your hot water heater is only about 120 degrees. It is hot enough to burn you. That is not hot enough to kill the germs. Dishwashers have a coil in the bottom that heats the water so that it kills the germs. I think that's important to my health and my family's health. I have a degree in biology, so I took microbiology and know a bit about germs. The disinfection standards for restaurant dishwashers are a lot higher time and temperature than 120 degrees. Minimum single temp I found was 165 deg. F. Home hot water heaters don't go that high.

See below.


Clothes dryers -- I live in a very humid, rainy climate. Drying my clothes outside means they would probably never get dry a lot of the time, and they would pick up lots of pollen and gunk from the air as well. If I slept on sheets dried outside, or wore clothes dried outside, the pollen and plant material would set off my allergies and I would sneeze, have a runny nose and itchy eyes. That's an important consideration to me. If my allergies are flared up, they can lead to a sinus infection, and I am non-functional.

You probably think air conditioners are a luxury in hot, humid areas too. Barfing your guts out and getting dehydrated from heat exhaustion is not fun. If it's serious enough, it requires a trip to the emergency room. Paying for air conditioning is a lot cheaper than paying for a trip to the emergency room, if you don't have health insurance. I don't have health insurance. I have gotten heat exhaustion from being outside in hot and DRY areas too, like Fresno, CA.


Example of sanitation standards from Washington County, OR, for restaurant dishwashers:

"4-501.110 Mechanical Warewashing Equipment, Wash Solution Temperature.

(A) The temperature of the wash solution in spray type warewashers that use hot water to sanitize may not be less than:

(1) For a stationary rack, single temperature machine, 74°C (165°F);

(2) For a stationary rack, dual temperature machine, 66°C (150°F);

(3) For a single tank, conveyor, dual temperature machine, 71°C (160°F); or

(4) For a multitank, conveyor, multitemperature machine, 66°C (150°F).

(B) The temperature of the wash solution in spray-type warewashers that use chemicals to sanitize may not be less than 49°C (120°F).

4-501.111 Manual Warewashing Equipment, Hot Water Sanitization Temperatures.*

If immersion in hot water is used for sanitizing in a manual operation, the temperature of the water shall be maintained at 77°C (171°F) or above.

4-501.112 Mechanical Warewashing Equipment, Hot Water Sanitization Temperatures.

(A) Except as specified in (B) of this section, in a mechanical operation, the temperature of the fresh hot water sanitizing rinse as it enters the manifold may not be more than 90°C (194°F), or less than:

(1) For a stationary rack, single temperature machine, 74°C (165°F); or

(2) For all other machines, 82°C (180°F).

(B) The maximum temperature specified under (A) of this section, does not apply to the high pressure and temperature systems with wand-type, hand-held, spraying devices used for the in-place cleaning and sanitizing of equipment such as meat saws. "

==========================

So dishwashers are a luxury, huh?

[NMDemDist2]

9. although I question the need for dishwashers, they actually are more

efficient than hand washing *IF* you don't have to pre rinse the dishes. unfortunately that is not the case for most home DWers. my step mom's Bosch will clean the dishes without pre rinsing, my old KitchenAide, not so much.....

a drop of bleach in the rinse water will kill the germs too

[emmadoggy]

17. We have a fairly run-of-the-mill Whirlpool dishwasher and

we never pre-rinse. Maybe a pot or pan, but the regular dishes, no. We don't do a lot of heavy-duty cooking, so maybe that is the difference. But I was under the impression that with MOST newer models, pre-rinsing really isn't necessary. Many dishwashers also have a rinse only cycle if you don't plan to run the regular cycle right away. We only run our dishwasher once a day, at night after we go to bed so I don't feel like using it is particulary wasteful compared to washing our dishes by hand after each meal.

But I know a lot of people do pre-rinse by hand and also run their dishwashers a lot more than we do, so I'm not sure where that comes down for water and energy usage. :shrug:

[Dead_Parrot]

7. What about a solar-powered car?

:shrug:


:evilgrin:

[mahina]

10. The guys in the downstairs apartment here just converted

a Geo to a solar car. It is pretty cool,

[Ready4Change]

16. I'd dig it.

One of the proposed 'options' for the Telsa Roadster is (was?) a solar option. They'd analyze your driving habits and then arrange for a contracter to install a PV system to offset your driving power needs. You'd also have the option of having a larger, battery backed up system installed, which would charge a battery array during the day and then transfer than charge, minus losses, to the roadster.

I also know one homeowner whose array covers all his needs, except for his daily driven electric car. Last I heard an enlarged array to cover the cars needs was in the plans.

Now, costwise, this is clearly getting quite expensive. The Tesla would be, say $100,000. (Ouch, otherwise I'd be in line.) And an array sufficient to offset, say 50 miles of driving a day will likely be as big as one needed for a whole house. I could see that reaching $130,000. Oof.

On the other hand, conversion EVs cost half, or less than half the cost of a Tesla. Still capable of 50 mile a day commutes. But the PV array isn't decreased, so you're maybe looking at $80,000, rather than $130,000. Even in this area, not many people are buying $80,000 cars.

That all contributes to why I think it will be a while before transport is all EV. It pretty much doubles the needed collection abilities. (The other reason is that rapid charging people will desire requires some form of battery technology we can't yet make in industrial quantities.)

[One_Life_To_Give]

14. Depends what you want the array to do?

Installed cost of a PV system is going to run around $9/watt. So an $18k/ 2kw PV system will displace some $0.40 to $0.80 of electricity per day (in good weather). Economically it doesn't work except over a very long period of payback.

Would be better if you could disconnect the home from the grid. But then you have to get the average daily consumption under approx. 4kwhr