A Tough Parenting Problem That Kind of Stumps Me.

[NNadir]

Suddenly - as if from nowhere - my youngest kid, whose going to turn 9 is exploding intellectually.

All night long, it's question after question, about the structure of matter - he gave a neat little correct lecture on the structure of protons vs. neutrons last night at bedtime - and this evening I pulled out an old calculus text to show him the geometry of the Mean Value Theorem - and he got it. At bed time it was a discussion of organic chemistry and the nature of aromatic rings and double bonds.

We've talked about Neils Bohr and the structure of the atom, the nature of electromagnetic radiation, all kinds of stuff.

In the last few weeks he's been teaching himself to play the recorder and the guitar.

Two nights ago we went into this big thing about the structure of cells and cell organelles, all questions based on his independent reading - books he took out of the library.

He is suddenly at a point where I don't have to teach him much - it's all self driven.

(They seem not to have noticed any of this at my son's school by the way, which is actually fine by me.)

The problem is his older brother, now 13, who is no intellectual slouch by any means - an Einstein, I might add of ethics who has told not one lie in his life except to spare feelings - who suddenly feels inferior to his little brother.

The kicker is that the little guy wins every game they play together, chess, monopoly, whatever.

My boys are extremely close - best friends - and is very clear that the little guy has benefited and advanced because of his older brother, but frankly, the little guy is intimidating.

There's a part of me that wants to hold back something - the attention I'm giving the little guy because of his interest and his intensity. On the other hand, I don't really want the little guy to feel bad about his intellect. I don't really want him to feel he has to hide it, or be ashamed of it. And I want the older guy to know that I love him and value him as much as his brother.

And the last thing I want - I'm speaking as a guy who will never speak to his own brother again - is to drive any kind of wedge between my boys.

I really don't know what to do in this space.

[tabatha]

1. If possible

Encourage different hobbies at which each excels - and hopefully, in which the other has no interest, so that they can each claim territory where they feel comfortable and winners.

[NNadir]

2. That's a good idea, but the problem with this is that the little guy latches on to whatever his

brother is doing.

He latches on, pretty much, to everything.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

3. I'm not a parent so I have no idea how to handle it from that standpoint.

But one concept that might be helpful to convey to your son is that a lot of people are late bloomers. Funny you mention Einstein. He was said to be a very poor student as a young man. He'd probably be labeled learning disabled if he were a student today.

[BanzaiBonnie]

4. Is there some special activity or interest that the 13 year old

has that could be used for an outing for just the two of you? Each of them is so different. I've got four girls and they are so amazingly individual.

[juajen]

5. It sounds as if both boys belong in gifted classes, if they aren't.already.

I don't know where you live, but, an inferior school can kill that intellect, a bit at a time. It needs to be encouraged. I have three gifties, grown now with several degrees each. I know whereof I speak. Gifted and Talented schools usually have scholarship help, if it is needed, or maybe both boys can attend gt classes.

[NNadir]

8. I absolutely do not want any part of gifted classes.

I've been there and done that, and, I'm speaking only for myself here, those classes were bad for me.

Some people, I think, can handle them, but I don't think they fit our personalities.

Worse is that the oldest boy is dyslexic and for most of his elementary school education they couldn't decide whether or not he was retarded or worse - he could barely read in the third grade. (The State of New Jersey has an oblivious policy toward the existence of dyslexia.) Thus the oldest boy probably wouldn't get admitted even if I wanted him to do so. We've worked our way around it, and the big guy is now on the honor roll every semester, but not dramatically so.

[rwenos]

13. A Thought from a Second Son

I was the younger brother in this scenario. Probably way less smart than your kid, but subject to the same intellectual explosion at about 9-10 years old. The beneficiary of the 3-years older brother's circle of friends, taste in movies, etc. (Example: I saw Dr. Strangelove in a theater in 1963 -- I didn't figure out it was a comedy until I was 18.)

My thought, as that younger son: (1) Stroke DIFFERENT areas of expertise in both kids. If one's a baseball player, let the other be a tennis player. If one's a pianist, let the other one be a drummer or trumpeter. (2) Let the younger one be smarter than you. Let both of them be smarter than you. (We let my kid learn French -- she speaks it now like a Parisienne, and she always corrects my horrible junior high French.) (3) Encourage the younger one privately to do some special stuff, like reading or watching more-sophisticated movies. (4) DON'T DUMB #2 DOWN.

Frankly, I can't figure your hesitancy to get either or both kids in gifted programs. I went clear through elementary school, junior high, high school and U.C. Berkeley with the same group of about 20 gifted classmates. Some of us are still friends, 40 years later.

[Warpy]

15. My parents both graduated high school at 14

and spent their gawky puberty years being regarded as freaks. At 14, they were too young for real jobs or real college, so they had to stay in holding patterns for 2 years. They always felt socially maladjusted, although they weren't. They did miss all the social stuff that is supposed to happen in high school. I think it's really a blessing they found each other.

They refused to let me skip grades because of that. School was torture. I learned how to act out enough that the teacher would throw her hands up in disgust and allow me to sit in the back of the room with my stack of books as long as I passed all the tests. It was a constant struggle because I changed schools every 6 months in the earlier years. There were no gifted programs where they lived in the 50s, so that was out. Skipping grades was the only alternative back then. Things have changed, though, so check it out.

My friend with the brainy kid took on a second job to pay for the kid to go to a prep school in their town starting in seventh grade. That helped a lot because the kid got the attention she needed and didn't have to plod along at the public school pace. She had the best of both worlds, a gifted student program and peers her own age.

[phantom power]

16. Funny, I had a similar experience when my parents put me in a gifted class.

They ended up taking me back out. The teacher of that class felt pretty bad about it. Chagrinned, I guess. I don't think it had ever occurred to her that her approach might actually be a bad match for some kids.

I only have one kid, and she's only three. Thirteen is a tough age. Self esteem takes a beating under any circumstances. Finding something he can do that's unique to him seems like good advice. Spending time with him, apart from his brother, also seems like a good idea. My dad and I took a few camping trips together when I was around that age. Good times.

I can hardly handle my three-year-old. What do I know?

[polichick]

6. I'll check out the lounge thread. nt

[MrsBrady]

7. it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

support them both to excel as much as they can. Love is an action, not a feeling.
Every body has their abilities, and some of us have more talent in some areas.
That's life.

Get them iq tested, get them special tutors...you never know what they could do.
I know of a 15 year old girl who is in college full time already.

Why don't you call around/search the internet and find some kind of support group, counselor, parent group....SOMETHING....
for smart and talented kids....people who have gifted kids who have been through what you are going through.
...and maybe find more kids like your boys for them to hang out with.

The last thing you want to do is hold them back.

[NNadir]

9. I meant to delete this thread and put it in the lounge.

Somehow it stayed here though.

The same thread is running over there.

[Warpy]

10. You need to spend as much time developing the older kid's

strengths. Have you introduced him to philosophy, ethics, humanism? He might quite enjoy reading some of that. I don't know what to suggest, but I started reading Greek myths at 8, got into Bertrand Russell and Marx at 12, kicked and clawed my way through Rand at about 15. History might be another area he could excel in if he's a reader.

My best friend produced a brainy kid. I started getting her into the Greek mythology at 10, shocking the shoes off my friend who didn't think anybody should get it until high school, but what's a rollicking good story at 10 is a bore in high school. She had no siblings, so there wasn't the potential of a destructive dynamic, but a lot of people thought she was scary.

The little guy is going to need a lot of support. School is going to be torture a lot of the time if a well meaning teacher forces him to plod along with the rest of the class. Just let him know that schools never teach what they should be teaching and that kids who really want to learn have to learn in spite of them, not because of them. Your book bill is going to equal the national debt at some point, but what the hey.

If the older kid is more physical, then try to get him into his interests there. If he's artistic or musical, go that way.

The best way is to keep pointing out how well they complement each other, and that together they'll be an unbeatable team of ethics and compassion on one side and academic prowess on the other.

It sounds like you're raising two really great kids, kids I'd like to know someday. I know the little guy is scary at times. I still scare the hell out of people when they realize what's going on behind this deceptively sweet grannylike exterior, but dealing with that is going to be his job, not yours. My guess is that his brother will be his reality check and guidepost as he's learning to do that. One thing you need to encourage is his use of his older brother in hashing out life questions, something that will bring them a bit closer together and make the little one realize that book larnin' aint everythng.

"What do you think about ________?" is the best way to get these discussions going. Every kid loves to be asked what he thinks and so few get it.

[rwenos]

14. These are Good Suggestions

Sounds like Warpy is saying some of the same stuff I did.

Good luck. Encourage creativity. And never forget our children are a wonder.

[elfin]

11. G & T Education sucks now -- there was a time

in the 70's when there was a creditable movement to provide the needed services for kids and families.

All gone now with budget cuts and NCLB standards.

I was a parent advocate for G&T and could never comunicate that giftedness strikes ALL populations and is best served by Special Ed. qualified teachers.

They are the very best when it comes to individual special needs -- AND way back then, they were the pool of instructors who had advanced degrees and could be flexible and innovative.

While my own child was very bright, I (as a former teacher) was most concerned with what I called the "overtly unique", who I felt were underserved in nearly every educational setting.

As a country, we are missing the opportunity to nourish these young minds.

As a parent, you have the right instincts -- and BOTH of your kids need extra guidance.

Your older child already knows that the younger is "different" -- but you will assure each that he is special in his own way.

Take joy and don't waste much time railing against the schools - just find the best teacher in each grade and tell the Principal who you want for the next year and why, with the implicit understanding that they may lose their best test scorers at any time. Unfortunately, that is what it is all about now -- those GD tests.

One year, I made an appointment with the Principal and explained my choice and why. When he said that "it just doesn't work that way", I responded with a smile "OK" but that if my son got Mrs. X, I would quit my job and observe each day, so set up an extra seat in the room. Guess what -- got who we needed.

[provis99]

12. if the brothers like each other, I wouldn't worry at all

I remember growing up with a smart brother, and just remember being proud I was related to him; used him as a source for information on stuff I didn't know, and he was happy to help me out. By the way, he's my little brother, he's ten years younger than me, and as adults, we're still proud of each other's smarts and accomplishments.

[zazen]

17. PLEASE google "Hoagie's Gifted"

I graduated from high school at 15 in the early 80s. . . and there is still a great deal of resistance from the mainstream educational establishment to acceleration, but research consistently supports the reality that it's more emotionally neglectful to ignore a children's giftedness and force them to "learn" at the level of their chronological peers than to have them spend their time being more challenged. That's what people don't get, and why you'll keep getting the insinuations that you're trying to push your child too much or you don't care about their emotional/social development. Bull. It's precisely because you do care that you're looking for ways to support him, because when you feel like an intellectual freak a lot of emotional/social issues will ensue.

Fortunately, today, there are more programs that are enabling both, and I'm pursuing one for my eldest at Guilford College (we're going Monday, actually), who's also like your son. Ideally, they can learn with children close to their own age who are also exceptionally gifted. There are a few early college entrance programs where kids go in as young as 10/11 but with a cohort of others up to 16. Makes a big difference. I got dropped off on the 20K campus of Carolina, barely 16 and a fluffy blonde to boot, with no guidance whatsoever. Big mistake--a problem having to do with parental stuff, since I should have left high school. I just should have been at a small liberal arts college with a lot of supervision. It was like painting a target on my shirt.

This web site has so many resources for parents like yourself. I'd have e-mailed you, but I don't seem to be able to send e-mail anymore, though I can receive it. Best of luck to you and your family!

PS: Many of the "early college" programs you see related to the Gates Foundation/New Schools projects are for VOCATIONAL students--the ones where you go to high school for five years and graduate with a two-year community college degree. These are _not_ programs for the exceptionally or profoundly gifted child. There are several around here in Wake County, and I have to clarify that for parents all the time.

[NNadir]

21. Thanks for your insight. I took a look at the link.

My son is already having some social disconnects, but I kind of thought it was related to his having a personality that is much like mine.

He is, among other things, often somewhat introverted and somewhat dreamy, although he is no where near as obnoxious as the personality I present on this (and other) websites.

His mother thinks otherwise about the reasons for his isolation in school.

He is very good friends though, with all of his older brother's friends, who are in middle school now. Little, if any, distinction is made about him being younger than they are.

I would never dream of sending that boy away from here though. It would, frankly, devastate all of us, I think. I have to feel like it would seem like a kind of punishment. His intellectual development is one thing; his emotional development is another.

Richard Feynman used to talk a lot about his familial life as I recall, and mostly his talk about the origins of his mind didn't center so much on the institutions where he was educated as they did on his relationship to his family, particularly his father.

If I may offer a criticism of the website though, it would be this: There is a kind of selection pressure involved in the research cited, all of which is from the same institution, the University of Connecticut National Research Center on Gifted and Talented Children, and that is an institution deals with "gifted" children. On some level this is like asking a school of automotive engineering to decide the merits of cars. It would be nice if there were research from other institutions cited. I'll look through a few of the papers referenced, but I am suspicious of pyschometrics, particularly those that seek to measure vague things like "intelligence" and "happiness."

I'm not so much interested in squeezing every millimeter of potential out of him though as I am interested in the health of the family as a whole.

He will choose to realize his own potential in his own time and his own way, I hope.

I do think his school is something of a drag for him but it hasn't held him down all that much. I cannot say that I think he is an unhappy child, at least for now. For the time being we have an excellent library in this home and he still has plenty of space to grow intellectually right here.

[GliderGuider]

18. May I offer a totally subversive suggestion for you eldest?

Buy and read The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education by Grace LLewellyn. It's a book about "unschooling". My partner found it when she was looking for some way to keep her brilliant ADHD daughter from being destroyed by the school system.

I was completely opposed to the idea of self-directed education, because school had always suited me well. When I read the book that faded to merely a strong reluctance, but when I saw it in action I was converted, at least up to a point. She's learning Japanese, even doing homework on her own initiative, and is developing good home design and some construction skills. I think it's an idea that could work really well for a lot of kids, and if things unfold the way I expect they will, that approach could result in a child acquiring a more useful education as well as a more humane one.

[GreenGreenLimaBean]

19. my 2 cents

I have a 13 and a 9 year old, both girls. The oldest is brilliant, has never gotten a grade below A, reads incessantly and her goal is to be valedictorian of her HS class. My 9 nine year old, is happy, well adjusted, get s A's and B's in school, but definitely not as driven as her sister...Given all that, you would think the younger one would be jealous of her older sister, but that is not the case. My teenager is insanely jealous of her little sister. It got so bad, my wife and I decided it was a problem that we needed to figure out and deal with....and what we found was that I was spending more time helping my younger daughter with her homework, and not spending any time helping my oldest, mainly because she never needs help....So it really came down to equality. Children pick up on much more than we(adults) give them credit for...so my advice is go out of your way to spend equal amounts of time with your 2 children, independently of the other...we can't help the fact that one child is better at some things, but if they perceive you value that quality more, then they will feel inadequate in your eyes....

cheers!

[Traditional Liberal]

22. A little different perspective

My kids are a little different. One seems to excel at school, the other is getting by fine but does not really like it. For sports, it seems to be the opposite, the younger one seems pretty adept, the older less so.

I have leveled with them, that I cannot treat them exactly the same, because they are not the same. I am working to help them do well at what they like, overcome what they struggle with, and help them keep each other's abilities in proper perspective.

[Dead_Parrot]

20. Well out of my league...

But you could try cross-posting to the http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=238">parenting group. Slow moving, but worth a go.