EU project calls for swift introduction of hydrogen energy into transport sector

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=EN_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=29172

EU project calls for swift introduction of hydrogen energy into transport sector

Date: 2008-02-26

An EU-funded research project has found that introducing hydrogen into the energy system could reduce the total oil consumption of the road transport sector by 40% between now and 2050. The HyWays project published its 'European Hydrogen Energy Roadmap' on 25 February, drawn up by project partners from industry, research institutes and government agencies in 10 European countries.

The publication of the roadmap comes on the same day as the EU research ministers agreed on essential elements of the Joint Technology Initiative (JTI) to develop fuel cell and hydrogen technology. Over the next six years, the industry-led public private partnership will receive €470 million in EU funding, to be matched by investment from industrial partners. The aim is to speed up the development of fuel cell and hydrogen technologies, so that their time-to-market is reduced by two to five years, making them commercially available between 2010 and 2020.

The HyWays roadmap points out that a swift introduction of hydrogen technology into the road transport sector would contribute considerably to the reduction of CO2 emissions. 'Total well-to-wheel reduction of CO2 emissions will amount to 190 to 410 Mton per year in 2050,' the project partners calculate. 'About 85% of the reduction in emissions is related to road transport, reducing CO2 emission from road transport by about 50% in 2050.'

In addition, the researchers point out that hydrogen decouples energy demand from resources and could also act as a temporary energy storage medium, thus facilitating the large-scale introduction of renewable energy into the power system. By acting quickly and taking a leading position in the worldwide market for hydrogen technologies, Europe could also open up new economic opportunities and strengthen its competitiveness.

...

[jpak]

1. Nooooo!!! Hydrogen is a fraud!111 It's not an energy source!!!1111 Renewable energy can't make H2

Never mind...

[gristy]

2. We need a separate forum for this tripe

Hydrogen is an energy storage medium. Not an energy source. It does nothing to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels or our CO2 emissions.

[jpak]

3. We should call it the *Reality Forum*

:evilgrin:

[cloudythescribbler]

7. This is an incredibly misleading (but bizarrely popular on DU) meme

Hydrogen (safe in the form of metallic hydrides that are salts, like MgH2) IS INDEED a fuel,and fuel in turn IS a storage medium, whether it's wood, oil, gas, etc. The difference is that hydrogen is PRODUCED using energy, which can come from much less 'convenient' albeit abundant sources like wind and solar voltaics. The latter two are not as easily transportable and usable on demand (eg on a windless night), so hydrogen is the perfect bridge (for the foreseeable future -- ie this century)

[OKIsItJustMe]

12. Strange...

I often read on this forum that the problem with wind and solar power is that we don't have a good way to store the energy they produce.

You say that hydrogen is a storage medium for energy...

Hmmm...

[FogerRox]

4. 1st law thermodynamics..... YAwN.

Polywell fusion ? Anyone ?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmp1cg3-WDY

[phantom power]

5. H2 for endpoint applications still seems like a loser to me.

If you want to make hydrogen, use it for building motor fuels that are easier and cheaper to handle in a vehicle. I do see H2 as a plausible way to store large amounts of energy from renewables. Load balancing, but via manufactured fuels.

I just don't see the point of developing all kinds of technology trying to safely shoe-horn it straight into a car.

[cloudythescribbler]

8. Go look up (and please email me a c/c) "Somebody Doesn't Like Hy-Fuel" Oct 4 1980 NATION magazine ..

Hydrogen energy has LONG been usable in autos, regardless of what W says (uncontradicted by the same media that justified down to the astroturf roots for him when he didn't know the head of state of India or Pakistan in the 2000 election). This article explains an instance of the SUPPRESSION of such technology from being CHEAPLY applied.

I can't seem to get my computer to BUY this item out of the NATION archives, so I don't have access to the whole article. But with the info you can find it and shell out the $2.95 for it ....

[phantom power]

10. I am not a charity organization for tech-suppression conspiracy theories.

[cloudythescribbler]

11. Other than throwing out the label "conspiracy theory" you don't address the ISSUE at all ...

If you reviewed the article, and what it says about the technology and had a critique -- that would be different. That sneer in response is really the substance of the position -- to pooh pooh other positions rather than provide evidence and argument.

That (which I wouldn't quite label a 'conspiracy theory') is what is going on generally

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. Actually... NOVA did a great show on Hydrogen

Back in the late 70's as I recall...


Found it:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/listseason/06.html

...

Invisible Flame (The)
Some day hydrogen may replace the gasoline that we are now using up so rapidly. NOVA looks at the potential of hydrogen as a zero-pollution fuel.
Original broadcast date: 02/22/79
Topic: technology/energy

...

A longer description (emphasis added by me):
http://www.angoleiro.com/penn.cgi?i=2805

1. The Invisible Flame - <60288>
An examination of hydrogen's potential role in the energy picture. This odorless, colorless gas, lightest of all the elements, is easily produced; burns quickly, evenly, and invisibly; and, because its only by-product is water, can provide a pollution-free link between solar plants and consumers. But hydrogen suffers from a poor public image, and it is difficult to store and transport. Produced by WGBH and the BBC for the Nova series.

[hunter]

6. It's just another mask for the coal industry.

More and more people are seeing the danger of coal-to-liquid transport fuels, so they promote this bullshit instead.

Unless there is an outright ban on further coal development, this hydrogen will come from coal, not renewable energy.

[cloudythescribbler]

9. There has recently been a MAJOR breakthrough on cheaper extraction of Hydrogen from water

I had a thread on it not long ago (using some kind of Aluminum-based compound & solar generated energy).

[OKIsItJustMe]

14. Let's not over-sell it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=134759&mesg_id=134759

The aluminum combines with the oxygen in the water to free up the hydrogen. To close the loop, the aluminum must be reprocessed.

The aluminum essentially becomes a storage medium for the energy used to reprocess it.

[speedbird]

15. the electric car is coming ...

when it does,
nobody will care about hydrogen

[OKIsItJustMe]

16. Really?

I don't know about you, but many people have natural gas piped into their houses. It's used for furnaces, hot water heaters, stoves...

Now, what if we had another gas that we could use instead? (Hmmm...)


We have (roughly) a gazillion ICE cars on the road today. Converting a fuel-injected ICE to burn hydrogen instead of gasoline (or in addition to gasoline) is relatively simple (especially when compared to the conversion to electricity.)
http://avt.inel.gov/hydrogen.html

(Which is more eco-friendly? An old ICE vehicle, converted to run on hydrogen? Or an EV?)

[hunter]

17. Substantial changes would have to be made to the distribution system.

In a lot of ways natural gas is a much easier substance to deal with than hydrogen.

Hydrogen leakage in a system designed for natural gas is a serious problem, and hydrogen weakens some materials unaffected by natural gas.

If you've got the hydrogen (or electricity) from whatever source, you might be much better off synthesizing methane and using the existing infrastructure in the manner for which it was designed.

[OKIsItJustMe]

18. Just so (synthesized methane)

Hydrogen has many uses.

[OKIsItJustMe]

19. Hydrogen can also be distributed using a liquid carrier (such as ethanol)

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/delivery/current_technology.html

[speedbird]

24. why bother with all these conversions?

'some substance' to hydrogen.
start a new infrastructure for hydrogen.

when you are likely, as good off by doing nothing?

i just don't see a place for hydrogen,
beyond storing energy in a situation
where, for some weird reason,
there is too much electricity, and
you want to store some of it....
that doesn't happen very often.

[OKIsItJustMe]

20. "Substantial" changes may not be necessary after all...

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress05/v_g_1_schmura.pdf

[hunter]

23. So how did that turn out?

My own observations and experience over the past thirty years is that this research is never completed. My very own tiny sliver of academic research in the early 'eighties was never completed.

Transporting gaseous hydrogen via existing pipelines is currently the lowest-cost option for delivering large volumes of hydrogen. The high initial capital costs of new pipeline construction, however, constitute a major barrier to expanding hydrogen pipeline delivery infrastructure. Research is also focused on overcoming other technical concerns related to pipeline transmission, including the potential for hydrogen to embrittle the steel and welds used to fabricate the pipelines; the need to control hydrogen permeation and leaks; and the need for lower cost, more reliable, and more durable hydrogen compression technology.

One possibility for rapidly expanding the hydrogen delivery infrastructure is to adapt part of the natural gas delivery infrastructure to accommodate hydrogen. Converting natural gas pipelines to carry a blend of natural gas and hydrogen (up to about 20% hydrogen) may require only modest modifications to the pipeline; converting existing natural gas pipelines to deliver pure hydrogen may require more substantial modifications. Current research and analysis are examining both approaches.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/delivery/current_technology.html

I think converting the natural gas system to transport hydrogen is one of those zombie avenues of research that won't die, much like Tokamak fusion.

[Zachstar]

21. EV

Hydrogen equals burning of fuel cell conversion to energy. Burning of Raw Hydrogen is rather useless in my view UNLESS it is combined with a fossil fuel which is like combining the green and red herbs in Resident Evil. There is simply not enough energy density to challenge gas.

Battery storage is growing up. EEStor is now in Lockheed's supply books which means it is SERIOUS and will be coming out one day less investors get ticked. Other types of battery research are going forward at a great rate too.

Hate to be a downer but there is no such thing as a full hydrogen economy anymore. The chance to do that came and passed when leading battery technology was still many nasty batteries grouped together.

The only things Hydrogen sounds good in is storage stations designed to hold DAYS of full output energy from nukes and renewable and clean energy producers. (Where such energy requires either alot of Hydrogen or many tons of high tech batteries.) And Aircraft where it is possible to build high altitude airliners based on the lessons learned through GlobalFlyer and the many glider advancements in aerodyamic tech.

[OKIsItJustMe]

22. What if that EV needs to be manufactured from scratch?

Hydrogen has plenty of energy density. (No! Really! Stop laughing! Now, just stop!)

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/storage.pdf

Hydrogen has the highest mass energy density of any fuel:
120 MJ/kg (LHV) 144 MJ/kg (HHV)

however
At ambient conditions (300 K, 1 atm.):
the energy content of 1 liter of H2 is only 10.7 kJ,
three orders of magnitude too low for practical applications.

Message: we probably won't want to store/transport/use it at ambient conditions.

[speedbird]

25. making 'renewable' hydrogen, from natural gas, ...

will help the enlighten Europeans
meet their renewables mandate