Have you seen this wind-turbine from aerotechture?

[suziedemocrat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW9p7yBJC0U

http://www.chicagoaudubon.org/pages/20-06_02.shtml

On Thursday, October 12, Bil Becker, CEO of Aerotecture International Inc., gave a presentation at the monthly board meeting of the Chicago Audubon Society.

Becker's company, among other things, makes innovative wind turbines that can generate electricity. The turbines are unique in that they are not propeller-type wind turbines, but instead, are helical, either upright or horizontal wind turbines. Their overall shape is tubular, and they can be installed upright or lying horizontally.

The advantages of these kinds of turbines are numerous. They are much more bird-friendly than typical bladed wind turbines. The bladed turbines become "invisible" to birds once they reach speeds of about 400 RPMs. At these speeds, the blades blur, and birds cannot see them. Becker's Aerotecture turbines are always visible, even at their highest speeds, which literally cannot exceed about 250 RPMs.

The helical Aerotecture turbines are also building-code friendly, and can be placed on existing buildings or built into new buildings without breaking building codes in Chicago (which is among the strictest cities in the nation in terms of building codes). The Aerotecture turbines, which are roughly 5 feet by 10 feet, will likely soon be placed on top of the Daley Center in downtown Chicago, as part of the Mayor's initiative to make Chicago one of the greenest cities in the world. The four turbines expected to go up will be largely experimental, and will help demonstrate that harnessing wind power in an urban environment is possible, and safe for both humans and birds.

...more at link...

[Jacobin]

1. Neat. Kicking

[DinahMoeHum]

2. Cool. This should help put the kibosh to those NIMBYs

who don't want the bladed turbines for perceived ascetic or bird-loving reasons.

And if they object to THIS type of turbine, well, fuck 'em.

:thumbsup:

[Unbowed]

3. Cool. K&R

[murray hill farm]

4. Very cool!!

and they are beautiful. I want one!

[kristopher]

5. The problem is physics

I don't mean to be a downer, but small systems are extremely inefficient. The problem is with physics, there just isn't enough power in the area swept by the blades of a small turbine. the formula for power in wind is ( power in watts/meter^2 = air density x velocity^3 / 2 )
Also there is something called the Betz limit which demonstrates that the theoretical maximum amount of power that can be extracted mechanically from wind with turbine technology is 16/27th of the total available. What all that means if you have a small surface to interface with the wind, you get back a small amount of power. The fact that it spins very fast with small blades means that there is little drag from the generating mechanism because it is designed to produce only a small amount of electricity with each revolution of the armature. Taken together this means that if your goal is reduction of carbon emissions, you will get a lot more bang for your buck by calling your utility and telling them you want to buy wind energy off the grid.

The very large wind turbines, even when set in arrays, are easily recognized by birds and avoided (Desholm). Their rotors spin slowly,probably between 10-20 rpm. Studies show that most avian deaths (average is on the order of 2 per turbine per year) are a result of collisions not with blades, but with the towers. All wind farms require environmental impact assessments and all environmental impact assessments for wind farms in the US include avian studies.
We've learned a lot since the Altamont Pass problem was created.

[LiberalEsto]

7. It's better to get off the utility grid if possible

A power grid can be disrupted by something so small as a squirrel, or as extensive as an ice storm. We've seen the effects of massive power blackouts and brownouts such as the big one that hit 8 states and part of Canada in 2003. I would also think a power grid would be one of the first places that terrorists might attack. If there's no electric power, there is no Internet, and no way to re-charge our cellphones.

I yearn for the day when I can afford to put solar panels or a wind turbine -- or both -- on my roof and generate all or most of my own energy. I do not want to be dependent on the power grid or be at the mercy of a greedy utility company that raises prices and reduces services.

Small localized power generation is also known as distributed generation. Here's a link with some information:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/distgen/equipment/equipment.html

I sometimes write articles about distributed generation, although the technologies I write about involve natural gas as the fuel, not renewable sources such as wind or solar. Natural gas may serve as an interim measure for small-scale power generation until solar and wind power are readily available and affordable. Here's an article about natural gas distributed generation that I wrote a couple of years ago:

http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/resources/Case_Studies/Cogen_Masonic_Res.pdf

[suziedemocrat]

8. I agree - I HATE the idea of a power-grid.

My hope is that someday we'll see pictures of power-lines and go "yuk - how 20th Century!"

[NNadir]

9. You should then feel free to disconnect yourself from it.

The biggest invention in distributed energy - the invention that has killed the planet by the way - is the automobile.

Distributed energy is a license for point source pollution.

It sucks.

As for your contention about the future, I would suggest that dumb fantasies may have already destroyed the future.

Ignorance kills.

[suziedemocrat]

10. I've already acheived a lot of my "dumb fantasies."

I've always been a dreamer. I consider it one of my greatest traits.

My goal is to generate my own electricity via wind and solar. And have an (at least partially) electric car that I can charge in my garage. I KNOW I'll get there. It just might take a while.

Edit to add: But, first things first. First is to reduce my energy bills. I have a home with a somewhat passive solar design, and I am slowly doing things to make it as efficient as possible. That is always the first step.

[NNadir]

15. Your goal?

I'm always amused by yuppie fantasies, most of which are just talk.

You have a house with a "somewhat passive solar design?" What exactly does that mean?

You have a window?

You are "slowly doing things?"

Do you have even the remotest clue about the state of affairs on this planet?

Do you know what the lives of the half of humanity that lives on 10% of the resources is remotely like?

No?

Why am I not surprised?

Distributed energy sucks. It's a car culture fantasy, based on illiterate self serving fantasies involving things that the purveyors clearly only barely understand.

Connected with this illiteracy is the "all new stuff game." Besides the denial aspect, there is the vast and morally vapid element of blind consumerism.

Like Pavlov's dogs, the morons of the "all new stuff" fantasy look at yuppie crap like say, the Maine Solar House and mutter "I want one."

I want one.

I want one.

I want. I want.

There are zero "I want one" consumer brats who know what real want is.


I would bet enough money to buy a brazillion solar roofs in California that you have no idea where your stuff comes from, and less idea about where it goes.

I, on the other hand, do know where the stuff comes from and where it goes - because I read the primary scientific literature, and not rhetoric produced by dumb illiterate journalists.

There are ZERO distributed energy advocates who have even the vaguest sense of how intractable point source pollution is, because there are ZERO distributed energy advocates who have even the faintest understanding of sciences like say, chemistry.

Most distributed energy advocates are fairly dull, not very insightful, poorly educated and are, obviously, not critical thinkers. If they were critical thinkers, they might wonder to themselves why so many automobile ads are (disingenuously) about "freedom."

Freedom from what? Moral responsibility? Decency?

Why is it that when, in fact, the reality of the car culture is bumper to bumper traffic on poisoned concrete or asphalt, all the SUV ads show people driving (at high speed) through pristine forests or on ancient geological formations?

Do you have any idea why the problems of say, smog, have proved so intractable? No? Have you ever in your little fantasy land ever imagined what it would be like to collect the carbon dioxide from the 500 million cars on this planet? What's your distributed energy idea. Five hundred million balloons on every tail pipe?

What about the outlaw coal generators in China or India? Have you been to India?

Distributed energy is a conceit, and a toxic one at that, for people who merely wish to excuse their moral indifference. It is a technical and moral poison.

[suziedemocrat]

19. I'm think I'm not as horrible as you want to paint me.

"Do you know what the lives of the half of humanity that lives on 10% of the resources is remotely like?"

Yup. I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Africa. Slowly doing something is a lot better than doing nothing. Some of my co-workers drive Navigators. I walk to work.

My "somewhat passive design" is mostly South-facing windows, none to the East or West, very few to the North. Retractable awnings over the South facing windows. A screen (summer)/ glass (winter) front storm-door to allow cross ventilation. Ceiling fans. Basement. It makes a difference. We've caulked and weather-stripped all the windows and doors to prevent drafts.

I survived a childhood in the Catholic Church - your guilt trips won't work on me.

[Dead_Parrot]

21. Don't mind NNadir

He's grumpy. Something to do with his kids inheriting a toxic waste-pit of a planet with no resources, although I'm not sure why¹. You're doing better than most, so it's a start. :toast:

-----

¹ Probably because we made it one, come to think on it.

[kristopher]

11. LOL

You wrote "I do not want to be dependent on the power grid or be at the mercy of a greedy utility company that raises prices and reduces services."

Instead you'd rather voluntarily pay 4X+ the price the "greedy utility company" is charging you for the same electrons. Whatever floats your boat, but again, IF you want to do something about climate change, you are going to get more carbon reduction by contracting with your utility to buy industrial scale renewables like wind.

There are programs (usually solar) that are sponsored by states and/or utilities that help meet peak demand and allow them to avoid building new fossil plants (usually gas), so that is another alternative. But I'd still assert that calling your utility and telling them you want to buy wind energy through them is going to do the most towards carbon reductions. The reason is simply that by a significant margin, industrial scale wind replaces more fossil kilowatts per dollar than any other renewable out there.

[LiberalEsto]

12. My whole point is to get away from utilities

Even if my up-front investment in renewable self-generation technology costs a bunch, it will eventually pay for itself. It will increase the market value of my home. And if I'm generating my own power, I won't need to worry about blackouts or rising energy prices.

[kristopher]

13. Not really...

"It will eventually pay for itself."
The costs of the power you get from most home systems will never be equal to the same amount of power purchased from the grid. When you add up all the costs, including the opportunity costs of the capital outlay, you will spend 4X or more as much for the power you consume than if you had bought that same power from the grid.

"It will increase the market value of my home"
Perhaps, but by how much? Plus, this is only a factor if you actually sell your home.

"And if I'm generating my own power, I won't need to worry about blackouts or rising energy prices."
Home power systems break down just as any other system will. And if you are ALREADY paying an extremely high price, exactly how are you insulated from harm when the price of the utility's less expensive power is raised to a point that is STLL much less expensive than what you are paying for your home system?

Look, face it, you are just a sucker for the concept. There's no shame in that, but, don't try to justify the purchase with bogus economic arguments, Focus instead on things like willingly paying a higher price to support a developing technology and you will be on much safer ground.

But once more let me make the point about carbon. The contribution each of us can make to carbon reduction is limited and it is important that we use the scarce resources we have wisely. Let me expand on my earlier recommendation regarding buying through your utility - after doing that contact a stock broker and ask for recommendations about investing in renewable technologies. Defer immediate gratification and put your money where it will do both you and the world the most good.

[suziedemocrat]

20. Without knowing what future energy prices will be, how can you be sure it won't pay for itself?

She is making an investment. She is betting on the price of energy going way up. Why do you have a problem with that? If YOU want to do something differently - do it.

[kristopher]

23. There is uncertainty in any projection

That doesn't and shouldn't stop us from making the best evaluation we can.

What I have a problem with is misinformation. If someone wants to pay a lot more for the electricity they use than they need to, that is their business - but they should be aware of what they are doing. When they come to a public venue and make claims, then those claims are subject to scrutiny.

As I pointed out, the goal of the purchase is important. Since all the stated reasons are belied by the data, the real reason behind the purchase is self satisfaction. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it isn't justified with false statements about the economics of the purchase. Solar is still an expensive source of energy that we need to encourage in order to get the cost down. If someone is willing incur a high cost in order to provide a market, I salute them - again, as long as that is why they are doing it. Justifying the decision on the basis of getting a bargain though, simply doesn't fly. Justifying this particular decision on the basis of avoided carbon emissions is also a marginal reason, since there are ways to get significantly more reductions for the same "investment".

I'm not judging, I'm just laying the facts out. Do you realize how much opposition to green programs forms around misinformation and inflated claims like are being made? Not everyone in the country is willing to act altruistically and the fact is we need the support of everyone if we are going to deal with CC in a timely manner. And when these economic pragmatists see people acting in what they believe to be a financially irresponsible manner, it tends to confirm the bias that anyone trying to move us to alternatives is making an equally poor evaluation of the financial realities. As someone with a toe in the policymaking process, I think that is an extremely important point since it gives policymakers opposed to taking meaningful action on CC cover for their opposition.

I hope that clarifies my comments.

[JohnWxy]

24. How far do you think natural gas prices will go in the future .. and utility rates???

[kristopher]

25. I don't know, but

I do know that natural gas volatility is one of the prime economic drivers of wind deployment at this stage of the process. Wind and solar present a viable price stable alternative to natgas for peaking power. Also, storage technologies like V2G and CAES can dramatically reduce the dependence on natgas in electric production.

Forecasts involving high penetration of renewables show surprisingly little overall rise in the wholesale costs of electricity when factored against prices incorporating carbon costs.

[JohnWxy]

26. and few are daring enough to predict natural gas prices more than five years out.

their volatility is high and in one direction UP!

[Fledermaus]

16. I suggest you read Home Power. They have very good information

for people like you. It's best if you do plenty of homework before you make a large purchase.

www.homepower.com


Wind Turbine Buyer's Guide
By Mick Sagrillo, Ian Woofenden
Jun/Jul 2007 (#119) pp. 34-40
Introductory Level

Home Power’s tour of today’s small-scale wind turbine landscape. Get the big picture before you buy.
http://www.homepower.com/article/?file=HP119_pg34_Sagrillo

[LiberalEsto]

18. Thanks!

I can't afford to do this for maybe another 5 years -- at the moment we're up to our asses with student loans.

[Zachstar]

30. Do you have any idea how much solar or wind systems are needed to power just one home?

Oh BTW? The output is not 110V power you have to have racks of batteries and conversion equipment which is not only expensive but a risk due to the large amount of chemicals involved.

It is not plug and play.

[Massacure]

6. The impact of wind turbines on birds is overrated

The two largest killers of birds are clean windows and cats, yet I don't see anybody advocating getting rid of those. :shrug:

[bad_robbie]

17. Dirty windows don't really need an advocate

I'm doing my part to reduce bird deaths in my corner of the world by never washing my windows. I recently expanded the program to include my mirrors and my car, just in case.

[Fledermaus]

14. Unfortunately, vertical axis wind turbines have not faired well.

And it's not just a fluke of economics. There is much more wind turbulence next to ground or structures, and a tubular frame around the turbine only adds to the problem. They are less efficient than a horizontal axis turbine mounted on a tall pole.

[Viking12]

22. As Iunderstand the design, it captures that turbulence.

That's the innovative characteristic of this windmill. However, I do have some reservations -- particularly the lack of any output specs. I've been over the aerotecture website and found a few other articles and none provide any indication of the output potential in kilowatts. What is the capacity?

[Fledermaus]

29. Hmmm...No output specs??? I think they have better salesmen than engineers. n/t

[OKthatsIT]

27. YES! Now yur thinkin! This would be great for New England

I was watching NanoSolar for years. They promised me they would let me in on their investment once they were ready for production lines.

Then the big boys moved in to control them...and push little guys like me out.

I waited for years for their solar panel 'quilts', which they've decided not to make...because the big corporations control them now. These 'quilts' could be thrown out in the front yard or hung off a clothes line. They decided not to put the quilt into production. Instead, they would focus all their energy on 'nanopaint', to be used on big corporate buildings.

So the BIG GUYS were making sure they wouldn't be strapped with carbon tax. But the little guy doesnt have a prayer.

Little guys never have a prayer when it comes to BANKERS & MEDIA.

[FREEWILL56]

28. Realistically speaking here this wind generator is of a design that I like,

but it won't produce much power as this is a savonius design and are generally about 20% efficient, give or take a few percent. It was stated,
"In order to operate efficiently, Aeroturbines must be installed 40 ft. above the ground, above or away from surrounding trees and other obstruction, and in an area with average wind speeds of at least 10 mph."
These are the same requirements for horizontal wind turbines.
I also noted that they did not specify the output rating of this particular wind machine at various wind speeds, but they certainly made the outlandish price of it be known. This machine will never pay for itself even if it does defy the norm of any machine needing maintenance and replacement parts every now and then. You will never be able to disconnect from the grid with one of these unless you plan on doing without power most of the time and you can save yourself the cost of the wind generator and just not use as much power. Saving a watt goes further than trying to generate a watt. For what that machine is and its costs, and I was to put $ into renewable energy, it would be the more reliable photovoltaics. Looking at just the base cost of the equipment and not concidering the labor, the same investment made in photovolatics would have a capacity in the neighborhood of about 2 kilowatts. For most areas in the US this should be able to produce at least 125 kilowatthours per month with most times being more than this.

[Trillo]

31. A design such as that might work on boats to power

electric motors to drive the propeller. Since the wind travels through them, and presumably forces are converted to centrifugal, it seems a keel wouldn't be as necessary as with a regular sail.