AECL pulls plug on reactors after millions spent (Canada)

[jpak]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080517.NUCLEAR17/TPStory/National

OTTAWA -- Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. suffered another embarrassing setback yesterday as the country's flagship nuclear corporation when it scrapped the development of two Maple isotope-producing reactors after pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into the project.

The federal Crown corporation conducted tests on the reactors this spring and could not find a solution to a design flaw that would make the reactors more prone to a meltdown.

AECL and its private-sector business partner, MDS Nordion Inc., have sunk several hundred million dollars into the development of the Maple reactors, which were meant to secure Canada's dominant position in the market for medical isotopes.

In the past three years alone, AECL spent more than $200-million as it sought an answer to a vexing problem known as a positive power coefficient of reactivity (PCR). The reactor is supposed to have a negative coefficient of reactivity, meaning the nuclear reaction would slow down if the power in the core increased. Instead, the nuclear reaction increased with additional power, heightening the chances of a meltdown.

<more>

[pansypoo53219]

1. yeah.

lets go back to nuclear.

[struggle4progress]

2. Over budget and behind schedule, reactor replacement axed

David Akin , Canwest News Service
Published: Friday, May 16

OTTAWA - Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. has shelved plans to build a replacement for a reactor that produces vital medical isotopes, in part because the project was millions of dollars over budget and years behind schedule.

But now, eight years behind schedule, with a budget that has ballooned from $140 million to $300 million or more and with no prospects of solving the technical hurdles that have bedevilled the project, AECL, with the government's backing, finally pulled the plug ...

It's not clear just how much the MAPLEs will have cost the Canadian taxpayer. Sources in the nuclear industry have told Canwest News Service that the final bill will be in excess of $300 million. Reuters reported that it was $500 million. Lunn, said it was "hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars over budget."

MacDiarmid said he could not provide the full costing on the MAPLE project because to do so would violate commercial confidentiality agreements ...

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=ba8921b1-5d42-4122-983e-3e0a3008ccea

[Dead_Parrot]

3. Medicine? We don't need no stinkin' medicine.

Maybe they'll be producing medical isotopes from wind farms instead. It'll be fascinating to see how.

[NNadir]

6. No doubt we'll have lots of cheering for the deaths from the absence of these research reactors.

Especially from dumb shits who got to play with RIA kits in high school and then declared themselves nuclear engineers.

This reminds me of the cheering for the Japanese earthquake here.

[Dead_Parrot]

12. Evidently. nt

[bananas]

26. It was the pro-nukes who were laughing and cheering for the earthquake

They even mocked DUers posting from Japan.
Here is how one DUer in Japan responded to the pro-nukes:

"5. It's easy to joke about something so far away
But living a mere 125 miles away, I was quite unnerved at seeing the initial video footage of black smoke pouring from the nuclear reactor complex, with no information about its cause. And I'm sure for the people in the immediate vicinity, it was no laughing matter."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=103672&mesg_id=103682

[jpak]

32. "dumb shits who got to play with RIA kits... then declared themselves nuclear engineers."

I bet those dumb shits brag how they "heavily contaminated their thyroids" with 125I "over a three year period" playing with RIA kits without any NRC fines or sanctions, then brag how they controlled their "heavy 125I thyroid contamination" with "ordinary iodized table salt".

The latter is physiologically impossible - the former is "made up".

But still these dumb shit sociopaths proclaim themselves "scientists"...

:rofl:

[NNadir]

33. Well never let it be said that fundies have anything but contempt for science. CDER writes thusly:

The use of KI in Poland after the Chernobyl accident provides us with useful information regarding its safety and tolerability in the general population. Approximately 10.5 million children under age 16 and 7 million adults received at least one dose of KI. Of note, among newborns receiving single doses of 15 mg KI, 0.37 percent (12 of 3214) showed transient increases in TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) and decreases in FT4 (free thyroxine). The side effects among adults and children were generally mild and not clinically significant. Side effects included gastrointestinal distress, which was reported more frequently in children (up to 2 percent, felt to be due to bad taste of SSKI solution) and rash (~1 percent in children and adults). Two allergic reactions were observed in adults with known iodine sensitivity (Nauman and Wolff 1993).

Thus, the studies following the Chernobyl accident support the etiologic role of relatively small doses of radioiodine in the dramatic increase in thyroid cancer among exposed children. Furthermore, it appears that the increased risk occurs with a relatively short latency. Finally, the Polish experience supports the use of KI as a safe and effective means by which to protect against thyroid cancer caused by internal thyroid irradiation from inhalation of contaminated air or ingestion

http://www.fda.gov/cder/guidance/4825fnl.htm

The conclusion:

The effectiveness of KI as a specific blocker of thyroid radioiodine uptake is well established (Il'in LA, et al., 1972) as are the doses necessary for blocking uptake. As such, it is reasonable to conclude that KI will likewise be effective in reducing the risk of thyroid cancer in individuals or populations at risk for inhalation or ingestion of radioiodines.

Short-term administration of KI at thyroid blocking doses is safe and, in general, more so in children than adults. The risks of stable iodine administration include sialadenitis (an inflammation of the salivary gland, of which no cases were reported in Poland among users after the Chernobyl accident), gastrointestinal disturbances, allergic reactions, hypocomplementemic vasculitis, extremely rare conditions associated with an increased risk of iodine and minor rashes. In addition, persons with known iodine sensitivity should avoid KI, as should individuals with dermatitis herpetiformis and hypersensitivity.

When you scratch the surface of a fundie, you find unreferenced contempt for science.

KI is known to reduce the biological half-life of radioiodine.

When one confronts a fundie one is inclined to ask if they are trying to be illiterate or if it's just accidental.

I'd ask but never mind. I already know the answer to that question.

[jpak]

37. Dumbshits don't understand the KI concentration in iodized salt

The minimum adult prophylactic dose for thyroid iodine saturation is 130 mg of KI

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

The concentration of iodide in US iodized table salt is 60-100 mg KI per kilogram.

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/esthag/2008/42/i04/abs/es0719071.html

note for dumbshits: a kilogram = 2.2 pounds

So when a dumbshit autodidact nuclear charlatan claims the he controlled his "heavily contaminated" thyroid using ordinary iodized table salt, the dumbshit would have to consume 1.3- 2.2 kg (2.9 - 4.8 pounds) of table salt all at once.

Which is physiologically impossible.

But that's OK - internet super-sociopaths can proclaim anything they want...

:rofl:

[jpak]

38. kicking

:evilgrin:

[Dogmudgeon]

40. You need to cut down on the potassium iodide

It can cause hyperreflexia.

Especially patellar hyperreflexia.

:evilradioactivegrin:

--p!

[NNadir]

42. Um, um, um...

Never let it be said that a fundie can do math or read. I think we've pretty well established that they can do neither.

In general fundies misrepresent and misremember things, because they're well, fundies.

One can buy iodine supplements in health food stores.

http://relentlessimprovement.com/catalog/iodine-supplement.htm

But no matter.

In the Ukraine, as it happens, goiter is a common condition, but not in California. The average citizen of California has considerable iodine in his or her diet.

Fruits, vegetables and many other sources contain iodine. Thus if one keeps one's iodine intake at a static level and adds small amounts of iodine supplements, one can, in fact reduce the incorporation of radioiodine that may come from one's laboratory work.

In general, in the old days, the preparation of RIA kits would use millicurie quantities of I-125. RIA kits provided to high school kids on science trips have much less radioactivity.

Now in the anti-nuke faith, it is assumed that all radioactive elements are concentrated - and make a beeline for flesh - and that they push, by magic, competing isotopes out of the way because they're (gasp) radioactive.

Duck! Jump under the table! Call Mom! Radioatom! Radioatom!

I would expect that an anti-nuke fundie who's Mom got him a field trip as a high schooler on Uncle Bernie the Scientist's cruise, probably believes that all of the hydrogen coming out of an RIA kit using tritium is necessarily radioactive and that only tritium atoms can get into an exposed person, shoving all of the deuterium and protium out of the way. This is nonsense, of course.

In fact, the tritium units in the atmosphere have been falling since 1963 at a dramatic rate. Ironically this is precisely the time that nuclear power became popular, beginning its rise to become the world's largest, by far, source of climate change gas free energy.

The "beeline belief" comes from the fact that fundies are radioactive paranoids. Witness their stupid belief that all of the radioactive materials in used nuclear fuel will make a bee line for baby flesh.

Also in the anti-nuke cult, it is assumed that all the iodine in a contaminated person comes from the radioactive source.

This is well, stupid.

In fact, if one merely doubles his or her normal intake of iodine, one will decrease the probability of incorporating it into thyroxine. One merely need be saturated with respect to iodine which takes micrograms per day.

Excess iodine is normally excreted. Thus if one exceeds his or her normal concentration, incorporation into the thyroid will be relatively low.

The average person will have trace radioiodine if exposed, diluted with natural iodine.

I have written on stupid fundie attitudes about iodine here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/3/152128/3838">Radioactive Isotopes from French Commercial Nuclear Fuel Found In Mississippi River.

On this note, I will note that fundies, with their innumerate percent talk, like to talk about how the rates of thyroid cancer went up a brazillion percent after Chernobyl. Actually, though, thyroid cancer is generally a rare condition, and in real numbers, the number of thyroid cancer cases over 30 years from Chernobyl will not exceed the number of cancers from coal waste - about which the fundies couldn't care less - in the next 3 days.

[jpak]

44. ummm...ummm...ummm...thyroid prophylaxis requires iodine *saturation*

In order to prevent uptake of radio-iodine, all thyroid iodine receptors must be saturated with "cold" iodine.

That requires a minimum adult dose of 130 mg KI.

It has to be taken all at once.

Adding a extra shake of salt to your yuppie New Jersey Walmart Car Culture steak won't do this.

Trying to ingest enough iodized salt to saturate your thyroid with KI would be fatal.

Any claims to the contrary are charlatan nonsense.

ignorance kills

[NNadir]

46. Um, um, um...I would point out the difference between I-131 and I-125 but it would be over your head

It would require for instance, knowing the radioactive decay law and the decay energies of nuclides, both of which are foreign concepts in fundie land.


There are ZERO anti-nuke fundies who are familiar with the contents of the table of nuclides or even the junior high school classes where radioactive decay laws are taught.

Radiation doses are measured in terms of deposited energy - but you would have to know something about energy to know that. Since there is NOT ONE fundie anti-nuke who can tell the difference between power and energy, this would be a lost cause.

Now, if you're a radiation paranoid - and who in the anti-nuke fundie community isn't - you have to chase after every iodine atom!

(Mom!! I need a drink!!!! Duck!!!! A GAMMA RAY!!!!!)

As for the conceit that radioactive iodine is special, because only the radioactive atoms stay in your flesh, and you need to replace them all at once, we'll leave that for mere calculation.

We'll put your knowledge of human physiology right up there with your knowledge of nuclear energy: ZERO.

The human body is 200 ppb iodine by weight. http://www.webelements.com/iodine/biology.html Now it would be pointless to describe what this means to a person who cannot do 3rd grade math, so I'll skip it.

By the way, when you've discovered a way to take a few mg of anything to rinse dangerous fossil fuel waste - including the coal for which all anti-nuke fundies are apologists - do tell.

I think that we've established once and for all, that in spite of fundie ignorance that swears that Chernobyl was the only energy disaster that ever took place on the face of the earth - the worst was treatable by simple methods.

This certainly isn't what they teach in fundie school, is it?

And, when you're done gloating over the people who will die because they don't have radioisotopes for treatment, maybe you can tell us how wind power is great for imaginig tumors and just real, real, real swell for treatment.

[jpak]

7. If those plants keep operating - lots of folks will need a prophylactic dose of potassium iodide

and chemotherapy 20 years later.

[Dead_Parrot]

9. Gosh, you are clever, Jpak

And there was me thinking tens of millions of people receiving medical care every year was a good thing.

We'll let the fuckers die instead. Hey, they can bequest money to Greenpeace on the way out! Double-plus-good!!

[diane in sf]

4. They can use the additional money they don't waste to buy wind power.

[Dead_Parrot]

8. Err, Diane...

These reactors were to produce radio isotopes for medicine, not power. Although they could indeed spend the money on wind turbines, there's not much scope for producing, say ⁹⁹Mo for ^99mTc in useful amounts unless they plan to build a serious shit-load of turbines and hook them up to a string of particle accelerators.

"Nuclear Kills" is a very successful meme, but then "Nuclear enabled your sister to have a single photon emission computed tomography scan of her benign tumour, she's scheduled for surgery next Thursday and the surgeon now knows which bits to cut out" hardly trips off the tongue.

[diane in sf]

27. Hi Parrot, missed that medicine point. If it happened to me I would be more inclined to

use surgery with holistic and/or immunizing treatments than chemo or radiation. The state of cancer treatment we're in is still horribly primitive and destructive.

[Dead_Parrot]

29. Fair enough...

...I'd probably go for both, to hedge my bets (oh me of little faith). But cancer was just an example - tracers like these are used for all sorts of stuff where you need to see inside in detail, from psychiatry to circulation: Losing this ability - or having it restricted to only the world's richest patients - would not be a good thing.

[losthills]

5. Nuclear power is too expensive

has too many undesireable environmental consequences and sucks money and resources away from responsible alternatives.

[NickB79]

13. Tell us about the alternative sources of medical radio-isotopes

I'm all ears.

[losthills]

16. Well Jr... we don't need "alternatives" to something

that we never needed in the first place.

"Nuclear medicine" is a con and a farce.

[GliderGuider]

17. That seems a pretty odd assertion.

Why do you think that? I always thought radioactive isotopes were one of the major advances in medical technology of the last half century.

[losthills]

19. I always thought it was a con game

to get people to accept the huge buildup of weapons of mass destruction during the so-called cold war.

We've published cancer rates associated with nuclear power in this forum many times. You've seen them. They dwarf the number of people helped by so-called "nuclear medicine." We would all be healthier and safer if all the uranium was left in the ground, where it belongs.

[GliderGuider]

20. Ah, so it is just ideology.

Just checking.

[losthills]

23. Is it "ideology" to ignore millions of cancers caused by reactors?

Yeah, it is...

http://www.multinationalmonitor.org/mm2000/00june/front.html

Radiation: Children at Risk


"Infant death rates near five U.S. nuclear plants dropped immediately and dramatically after the reactors closed, a recent study shows.

"Moreover, dramatic decreases in childhood cancer cases and deaths from birth defects, which are affected by radiation exposure, occurred near one of the closed reactors.

"The study suggests that the health of 42 million people in the United States who live downwind and within 50 miles of a nuclear plant may be affected by these reactors, according to the study's author, Joseph Magnano.

"The study was conducted by the New York-based Radiation and Public Health Project and published in the spring issue of the scientific journal Environmental Epidemiology and Toxicology.

"At a press conference in Washington, D.C., model Christie Brinkley joined Representative Michael Forbes, D-New York, and others in calling upon the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) to consider whether adverse health effects are associated with nuclear plant operations before renewing nuclear power plant licenses. "

[Dead_Parrot]

30. Right...

so the National Cancer Institute's study finds no link, but an anti-nuclear group discovers everybody dropping dead from evil nukes. OK.

After all, we can't argue with an intellectual giant like Christie Brinkley, can we?

[losthills]

31. Oh, more of your nonsense....

Have you ever heard the expression, "Get a life?"
You should give it some thought.....

[struggle4progress]

34. Cy clo trons

[Dogmudgeon]

10. Do you guys really think these are power reactors?

I think someone got a little over-zealous to bash nuclear technology and forgot to look beyond the headline or the scary bits.

--p!

[Dead_Parrot]

11. Pid is teh shill !!1!

It sez nukul nulcu nuklu nukes, so it's about weapons and chernobyl and bad stuff! No nulcleus in my atoms! Solar Rulz!

[Systematic Chaos]

14. Guys/gals (and you know who you are), how DO we do it?

How do we endure this level of sheer ignorance here, every single day, without our heads exploding?

Even more frightening is to contemplate whose side these fools would have been on during the Inquisition.

:banghead:

[Dead_Parrot]

18. Beer, and a twisted sense of humour.

Interesting point about the inquisition - I wonder if that explains the penchant for cellulose biofuels?

[GliderGuider]

15. This news is a medical catastrophe.

Does anyone remember the fuss there was up here last November because our nuclear regulators wouldn't permit the Chalk River reactor to keep operating without its mandated number of emergency coolant pumps operational? The plant was shut down for 27 days, and suddenly everyone realized that two thirds of the world's medical radio-isotopes came from that one plant. Within weeks there was a catastrophic global shortage of isotopes for radio-imaging. The screams of the world medical community resulted in an an emergency Act of Parliament to re-open the 50 year old reactor despite its regulatory shortcoming.

From the NY Times:

Reactor Shutdown Causing Medical Isotope Shortage

OTTAWA, Dec. 5 — Medical treatments are being delayed or deferred at hospitals worldwide because of the extended shutdown of a Canadian reactor.

The reactor, the Atomic Energy of Canada reactor at Chalk River, Ontario, near Ottawa, is North America’s only source of the base isotope for technetium-99, a workhorse of modern medical diagnostic systems. It is injected into patients 20 million times a year in the United States to create images used in the diagnosis and treatment of a wide variety of illnesses including heart ailments, cancers and gallbladder problems.

The reactor closed on Nov. 18 for maintenance. It was scheduled to open five days later but remained closed “to complete the installation of safety-related equipment,” the company said. On Wednesday, Atomic Energy’s wholesaler, MDS Nordion, said it did not expect full production to resume until mid-January.

These new reactors were a flawed design - they kept running away and nobody could come up with a fix, so it's a good thing they were canceled. However, that leaves the world dependent for half its medical isotopes on a 50 year old reactor with a known (though minor) safety shortcoming that sits on the bank of the upper reaches of the Ottawa River, upstream from Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City. This is a shitty situation all around, and the only reason I'm OK with MAPLE-1 and MAPLE-2 being canned is that they were defective. If they had operated as planned, I'd have been perfectly happy for them to have run and provided Americans and the rest of the world with medical isotopes.

What happens now if Chalk River gets shut down for age-related safety issues?

[losthills]

21. All reactors should be shut down for safety issues.

[NNadir]

24. Because in fundie land, coal plants are considered safe.

There's no problem with coal plants in fundie land.

For over one trillion tons of carbon dioxide - and time should be measured in units of billions of metric tons of carbon dioxide when one is talking to fundies - the fundies have been complaining about nuclear power.

They are ALL coal apologists or dopes or both.

[Zachstar]

39. disgusting! How dare you!

What you are saying in my view is "Screw you if you need the isotope for medical reasons! I don't want the nukes shooting rays into the bunnies!!"

[losthills]

43. Operating and fueling nuclear reactors causes death

and sickness, and far more suffering than what so-called "nuclear medicine" will ever prevent.

It's a con game.

[Zachstar]

47. Do you have ANY medical education?

[kristopher]

22. It's odd that someone who's only concern is the impending collapse of civilization would care.

However, if that peak oil attitude were just a cover for another nuclear apologist, your post makes perfect sense.

[NNadir]

25. On the other hand, for someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about humanity...

it's perfectly predictable that one uses moral quibbling to express total and complete indifference to the lives of ordinary people.

One of the remarkable things about childish views - and if you're over 18 you certainly have some catching up to do - is their total and complete self absorption.

I have zero doubt that our anti-nuke morally crippled fundies here would not hesitate for a second to insist on radiochemical treatment.

But, just as our anti-nuke fundies here were cheering for the Japanese earthquake and have not raised a single voice against the dangerous fossil fuels that have replaced the reactor as it is repaired, our anti-nuke fundies won't give a shit for the people denied treatment and diagnosis by this event.

I note, by the way, that the reactor in question is not a power reactor - although our dumb fundies wish to portray it as otherwise.

It is a research reactor. It is unsurprising that our fundies hate research, since they clearly hate science. There is NOT ONE fundie on this website who can tell the difference between power and energy, and not one who can tell the difference between energy and medical treatment.

[madokie]

28. How is it that berating everyone who comes in your path good???

what exactly do you wish to accomplish? Other than show your ass and piss folks off. What useful info can I get from your diatribes, NOTHING.

[Systematic Chaos]

35. That would be because your mind is made up and you're unreachable.

You've been given more than enough "useful info" here to make an informed decision. Too bad, so sad if you refuse to be bothered.

:shrug:

[madokie]

36. Thats my choice for me to make not you or anyone else's

I read a lot of the same arguments today as I did years ago and its pretty much all bullshit now same as it was then. The only thing that has changed is time and the fact we have a lot more of the waste today than we did back then, mid '60s. No I've not been given enough info to change my mind and I seriously doubt I ever will especially from the likes of you or that other guy, but who knows I've done other things I didn't think I would. Berating everyone in his sights is not useful info. In fact I find very little info, in any of his writings.

[eppur_se_muova]

41. So Canada can buy its medical isotopes from Colombia, Bangladesh, Vietnam ...

all of which have TRIGA reactors in place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIGA

Why didn't Canada go with TRIGA? "Not made in Canada, eh?"

[Zachstar]

45. That looks like a good reactor design. Wonder why they wanted to reinvent the wheel?

[Dead_Parrot]

48. Unfortunately, it's good at the wrong things

TRIGAs are multipurpose reactors, and damn good ones by all accounts, but they seem to have a fairly low neutron flux which is what you need for isotope production - So they can do it, but not very quickly or in large amounts. MAPLEs were intended to replace the NRX, with a high flux to zap targets quickly and in bulk.

An analogy that springs to mind is ovens: If you want to experiment with pot roasts, Baked Alaska and home made veg chips you'd want a decent oven with variable controls (the TRIGA): If you're heating chicken pies for 50 people in a canteen, you'd do better with a microwave.

[eppur_se_muova]

49. Thanks, wasn't aware of that. I guess that answers the question of ...

why more or bigger TRIGAS wouldn't widen the bottleneck.