GM seeks Volt tax break to avoid $40k sticker

[DainBramaged]

General Motors expects its gasoline-electric Chevrolet Volt to come to market in 2010 priced close to $40,000, say sources close to the project. That's pricey compared with rivals such as the Toyota Prius hybrid, but taxpayers may help lower that sticker.

GM is lobbying Congress to create tax credits benefiting "extended-range electric vehicles" such as the plug-in Volt, says GM spokesman Greg Martin. "We need to make sure the legislative language does include extended-range electric vehicles."

The Volt concept is powered by an electric motor running off lithium ion batteries. A small gasoline engine recharges the batteries after the vehicle has traveled 40 miles or so. Owners can recharge the batteries overnight by plugging the car into an electrical outlet.

A source familiar with GM's Volt program says some proposals for federal tax credits could knock up to $7,000 off the Volt's price. Company insiders now predict 10,000 to 30,000 Volt sales in the first year, with volume growing as it hits full production. GM is counting on the Volt to be a high-volume seller after the first few years. GM expects to bring the Volt to market by November 2010, sources say.

"There haven't been any recent developments that threaten the timing," says a source familiar with the project. "To the contrary, our confidence in the lithium ion battery continues to grow. But we still have a lot of development and testing to go."

GM unveiled the mid-sized Volt concept at the 2007 Detroit auto show. At the time, product chief Bob Lutz said GM planned to sell the sedan at a price similar to competing vehicles.

There are no vehicles on the market with a Volt-type powertrain. But the mid-sized 2009 Toyota Camry hybrid has a base price of $26,310, including shipping. And the 2008 Toyota Prius starts at $22,160, including shipping.

Chevy Volt update
• Sources expect November 2010 launch
• GM wants government incentives to cut price; if not ...
• ... Sticker near $40,000 is likely
• GM expects 10,000-30,000 sales the first year; high volume eventually
• Engineering cost of less than $500 million; total cost of program significantly higher



'Work in progress'

"The whole story on pricing is still a work in progress," says the source. "The final price to the customer will heavily depend on whether the next administration in Washington is willing to establish incentives for customers and producers. Absent some sort of tax incentive, a $30,000 price is not likely."

Congressional Democrats appear willing to help GM. Last week, the Democrat-controlled House of Representatives approved a $55 billion assortment of tax breaks that included a subsidy for plug-in hybrids.

Backers may 'reload'

The measure has received little attention because its prospects are uncertain in the Senate and the White House is threatening a veto. Nevertheless, one industry lobbyist said he expects GM's congressional supporters will have an opportunity "to reload."

In a meeting with bloggers in March during the New York auto show, Lutz implied that GM would be willing to sell the Volt at a loss initially. The Volt would help GM develop technology and improve the company's image, he noted.

"We're now talking to the board about a lot of programs where it could be years before we make a dime on it," Lutz said in a video of the meeting posted in April on GM's FastLane blog. "The board said, 'Hey, don't even talk to us about profitability. General Motors needs this car.' "

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080526/ANA03/805260357/1186 (subscription only, article posted in full).

[Ichingcarpenter]

1. General Moron Motors

$40,000, so a rich bastard can have a toy and not the masses.

Telsa Motors makes a better car and has .001% of the Resources.

[gateley]

3. Yeah, but the Roadster is over $100,000 --

Although I think their marketing strategy is brilliant and I'm a BIG supporter of the company.

I'm giving GM a good grade on this one. They want/need to appeal to the masses, and a lower price could help. The end result is more people driving gas/electric cars, which is good.

Although, I don't understand why we can't just go all electric. Tesla, as you mentioned, is a GREAT car, and we/they obviously HAD the technology when they introduced the electric car a few years back. With the advancements since then, I don't understand what the hold up is -- do you?

[Ichingcarpenter]

10. Once Again they will be overtaken by their competitors

who will bring out total electric cars for the masses the same year
Volt will debut in 2010

Nissan will release 3 different cars 2010
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f39/chevy-volt-knocked-aside-bullish-competitor-nissan-64309/

Honda rolls out a $20,000 hybrid in 2009

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080521/bs_nm/honda_dc

Europe already produces cars for the masses

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/08/01/100138830/index.htm?postversion=2007073110


The Volt is fine and will compete against the Telsa
but my point is GM needs to get their act together
and start making cars which the public will buy in mass.

[papau]

12. Saturn Vue as modified by AFS Trinity due in 2011 - PHEV 150mpg SUV

http://ecolectic.org/?p=114
AFS Trinity PHEV 150mpg SUV… $11.40 for 340 miles

Back in January AFS Trinity, a developer and manufacturer of fast energy storage solutions, using flywheels, capacitors, and batteries, to power equipment for NASA, the Army, and even F1 racers, unveiled its modified Saturn Vue at the Detroit Auto show, utilizing its technologies to create a 150mpg SUV plug-in hybrid vehicle. Since then they’ve been on a cross-country tour to promote the system, and even got some congressmen to take the PHEV for a test drive. Lucky guys!

AFS has released some data on their experiences with the performance of the vehicle, and it’s some good news. The acceleration in hybrid mode outperforms all other gas-powered SUVs, getting from 0-60 in 6.9 seconds. It’s top speed is 87mph, less than conventional luxury models, but who’s going over 87mph anyway? The biggest news, and one that will put smiles on our faces and keep money in our pockets is that the estimated fuel (electricity and gas) costs are around $11.40 for 340 miles traveled, assuming you use the 40 miles of pure electric 6 days of the week. This amounts to buying 2 gallons of fuel and simply plugging in your car to charge overnight.

Unfortunately, as we are hearing over and over again, the product won’t be on the market for another 3 years, so like all things, we must wait.

[itsrobert]

4. Really? How many Volts have you driven?

Must be nice to be one of the first to test drive these cars.

[Ichingcarpenter]

11. The Volt gets good reviews my point is the price

you want to get the UAW back to work GM need to start making
cars that common people can drive and buy when gas is at $6 a gallon or more.

[DainBramaged]

13. GM makes more cars that get 30 MPG or better than ANY other manufacturer

your mind is poisoned by the Peeus.

The sweat and shift AVEO gets 35MPG (5 speed, no AC) for $9995. Cheap enough????

[Ichingcarpenter]

16. The Aveo doesn't put American Auto Workers to Work

It is imported and manufactured from Korea.

There again is my POINT!

[DainBramaged]

18. It puts AMERICAN sales people to work, along with Teamsters

dock workers, and thousands of parts suppliers across the country. Nothing is ever good enough for the Japanese car lovers, is it?

[tinrobot]

22. So does every other import.

When you buy a German or Japanese car, it's unloaded by the same Teamster dock workers and sold by American sales people as well.

[DainBramaged]

27. Try again. Except for the luxury brands, we gave away the farm years ago

and we can't build manufacturing plants in Japan but they sure can build what ever they want here. More blame America first bullshit. If you didn't get sucked in by their marketing and actually OWNED a domestic in the past 25 years, maybe I'd discuss this further, but alas, I'm going to call some Union friends and tell them we should all buy Japanese and German cars because they are the same as American cars. And the profits stay in America too!

[tinrobot]

28. Ummm... I do own an American car.

I own a 2007 Ford Escape Hybrid, made in Kansas City by union labor. Great car. Gets 35-36 mpg.

Boy, you sure jump to conclusions quickly.

[DainBramaged]

29. Good for you, you must be so proud of the job you are doing for the environment

My conclusion is this, if we placed the same tariffs on imported parts and on the luxury brands from japan and Germany, we'd have leveled the playing field years ago. And MY brand is GM, not Ford, Chrysler, or any import. And my next purchase will be a Saturn green Vue, and it will be an extension of what I try to do to improve my carbon footprint, not a band aid like so many here think that their hybrids give them a pass from environmental responsibility.


Jump to this conclusion.

cya

[NickB79]

34. So, who unloads, sells, and repairs foreign cars in the US, if not American workers?

You kind of, uh, completely failed to refute that point.

[Ichingcarpenter]

23. I don't know why you defend General Motor's Management whose

shortsightedness has costs American Workers Jobs, the country's over dependence on
fossil fuels through protestation of CAFE standards while continuing to design and push vehicles
that were non visionary and ecological dinosaurs.

General Motors Management has fucked up and yet you defend them and they are the ones
responsible for the mess the workers are in.

We as a nation can design and manufacture a car for the future.
General Motors Management has not lead the way.
American independent automakers such as Telsa and Phoenix
are doing what General Motors Management should have done years
ago with all the money and resources they had under their command.











So get over your xenophobic attacks on me.

[DainBramaged]

26. Get over this.

Let your imagination do the walking.

[Finishline42]

17. I can't believe it

A UAW guy sticking up for GM? The same GM that has made a living out of making the same bad decisions in design and direction for as long as I remember?

I think it's unfortunate that the US car companies have been on the side of denial until it's almost too late. How long has GM been working on the Volt? Renault had a prototype of an all electric car for Israel in 6 months. A car with over a 100 mile range. What's the Volt going to have - 40 miles? So their first foray has to be a radical design in the $40k range? Just like their decisions to delay the move into hybrids (no matter the government support Toyota got from Japan - we still have tax credit on this side) and when they finally go into that direction, they do it with a TAHOE!!! Who is still driving 80 with $4 gas? The big SUV's. Wrong market. Now they are going to the Feds for help - what they should have been doing when oil doubled to $40/barrel. Toyota correctly got the market right then and I think Renault/Nissan may have it right now. The Prius buyer is getting 50mpg and wanting more. What's the Tahoe buyer want - more room and more HP.

GM has made a living out of blaming high Union wages and benefits for their problems - when it's really the decisions made by the idiots at the top in their ivory towers that are to blame. Sitting fat and happy building big trucks and SUV's, hoping that a economy that is sheding it's manufacturing base will be able to supply the jobs needed to buy it's product. Sending mfg jobs overseas because of cheaper cost. Well oil used to be $12 barrel less than 10 years ago, how expensive will stuff get when we don't/can't make it anymore?

[DainBramaged]

19. GEE, Union/GM haters on DU, why am I surprised?

When Toyota allows the UAW in ALL of their plants, not just the NUNNI joint venture, and Nissan and Honda do the same, I'll consider your diatribe. I guess as with most of you, you haven't owned an American car in more than a generation.

[Finishline42]

30. Wow, ALLOW unions in their plants?

Unions are only needed when management falls down on their duties. Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have better management and have stayed busy adding jobs in the last 30 years. Of course they didn't have overhead of 30 or 40 years of retirements to support, those costs are just now starting. What's the dynamic of UAW and management done for the US worker? Cut the work force in half? How about the pay cuts at American Axle? What 40%?

How many people know about the Hudson designers that Roger Smith brought out of retirement to redesign the Caprice? Brilliant! Take one of the best sellers in the Chevy line - two plants going strong, one in Flint and one in Texas. Cuts the demand in half, bye bye Flint plant. Again, my point was management not recognizing their market. The Caprice was selling to an older crowd that didn't care about styling, but about if the car was going to hold up and the powertrain did just that. Kept the powertrain but made the car dog ugly, messed up the weight distribution so that it messed up the handling. That was the lawyers and accountants in place of car people at the top making decisions that cost jobs and STILL get golden paracutes?

[DainBramaged]

32. "Unions are only needed when management falls down on their duties"

Bullshit. I can see you aren't a Union member or friendly to Unions.

Cya. Keep lovin those imports.

[DainBramaged]

6. So, because Japan, INC. financed the Peesus, they are gods?

Bullshit. You don't understand why things cost so much. Read the ENTIRE article.

[DainBramaged]

9. Tesla makes cars for rich bastards

how dumb.

[gateley]

14. Not dumb - excellent strategy for a privately owned company.

They will get the flashy roadsters on the street and people will learn that an electric car CAN be hot looking and perform well (0-60 in 4 seconds). Just the press will encourage people to start considering that electric doesn't equal golf cart.

With the revenue, they will produce a mid-sized sedan, probably about the same price as the Volt.

With THAT revenue, they will produce an economy model, for the rest of us!

They're already working on the next two models, and self financing through the sales of their higher (REALLY higher) priced Roadster.

I don't think that's dumb at all. I think it's a great business model and predict they will be a success.

What's dumb are the Lamborghini and Ferrari people who have that small market of uber-wealthy customers, but don't parlay it into a product that can appeal to and be afforded by the masses.

[Finishline42]

15. Economies of scale...

"What's dumb are the Lamborghini and Ferrari people who have that small market of uber-wealthy customers, but don't parlay it into a product that can appeal to and be afforded by the masses."

They have tried, remember the Chrysler-Masarati car in the 80's? Taking a car that is custom built, where cost is no object, and trying to mass produce where the cost of every plastic fastener is cheapened to the point of failure, just to find a way to make enough on a car to keep the wheels spining just doesn't happen. Toyota is spending billions just on new battery plants to supply their hybrids. Way more money than the Ferrari has.

[DainBramaged]

20. I doubt anyone who isn't a rich bastard will be able to afford one

[tinrobot]

24. GM used to make cars for rich bastards.

In the first decade of the last century, only rich people could afford Oldsmobiles, Cadillacs, and Buicks. Once production ramped up and the R&D costs were amortized, then prices dropped for the average person.

The same thing is happening with electric cars. The $100K Tesla and $40K Volt will lead to better cars lower prices within the decade.

[natrat]

2. why does that car look angry? prius is much better looking

[deadmessengers]

5. Fuck corporate welfare.

If GM can't compete in the marketplace, they should be allowed to DIE. End of discussion.

[DainBramaged]

7. Another big red X makes my ignore list

some people in this world need to go down to a UAW union hall and spew that shit.

[deadmessengers]

8. SWEET!!!!

I don't think I've made it to anyone's ignore list yet - it's like a DU badge of honor.

[NNadir]

21. This would be a tiny fraction of the giant car culture subsidy that no cares about.

Just the war in Iraq alone is a trillion dollar subsidy, never mind the multi-trillion dollar subsidy that the car culture gets for being allowed to ignore external costs.

I'm sure that this subsidy will be very popular with our "Tortilla Curtain" yuppie "environmentalists" too, all of whom just love subsidize the rich strategies, like say, solar power.

[tinrobot]

25. I think it's a great idea.

Particularly if it's applied to all types of electric vehicles. Sure, GM can absorb a loss, so they might not need it so much, but I see a tax incentive like this helping a lot of the smaller companies who are coming out with electric vehicles as well.

New technology is expensive to develop. Raise the tax on gasoline and put some of that money towards vehicles that wean us off of gasoline. I'd also advocate putting more money towards mass transit to wean us off of automobiles altogether.

[Finishline42]

31. Two things about an Electric Car that big car companies don't like

No regular maintenance schedules. Kind of messes with the dealer cashflow model.

It takes Billions of $$$ to make engines and transmissions. Keeps the competition down. An electric car reduces the large investment needed in plant and equipment.

[tinrobot]

35. Over the lifetime of a car, how much is maintenance?

I'd imagine it could be a lot, enough to make up the price difference of an electric car. Add in the cost of gasoline, and I suspect it would be cheaper in the long run to spend the extra money for an electric car.

Then again, when it's time to replace the batteries in that electric car, you're in for a HUGE repair bill.

[Finishline42]

36. Depends,

No reason an electric car should be more expensive, but you have to have realistic market goals. What makes them more expensive is putting unlimited range goals in place. Stats say most families have more than one car and most don't drive over 50 miles a day.

[The Diest]

33. Gee. US car CO sucks at green cars. SHOCK!

Originally this Volt was supposed to be going for maybe 17K, now its 40? US car makers deserve the grave they have dug themselves over the last 25 years. I guess my love affair with Japanese autos will continue.