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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 01:14 AM
Original message
Nuclear Market Meltdown, capitalists won't pay for nukes, they will pay for wind and solar
If you find this summary interesting there is a link to RMI's (rmi.org) spring newsletter that has the expanded, footnoted version of this article:


Missing the Market Meltdown
by Amory B. Lovins

This article appeared in Newsweek in its May 26, 2008 Issue


Capitalists have already scuttled Patrick Moore's claimed nuclear revival. New U.S. subsidies of about $13 billion per plant (roughly a plant's capital cost) haven't lured Wall Street to invest. Instead, the decentralized competitors to nuclear power that Moore derides are making more global electricity than nuclear plants are, and are growing 20 to 40 times faster.

In 2007, decentralized renewables worldwide attracted $71 billion in private capital. Nuclear got zero. Why? Economics. The nuclear construction costs that Moore omits are astronomical and soaring; low fuel costs will soon rise two-to fivefold. "Negawatts"—saved electricity—cost five to 10 times less and are getting cheaper. So are most renewables. Negawatts and "micro-power"— renewables other than big hydro, and cogenerating electricity together with useful heat—are also at or near customers, avoiding grid costs, losses and failures (which cause 98 to 99 percent of blackouts).

The unreliability of renewable energy is a myth, while the unreliability of nuclear energy is real. Of all U.S. nuclear plants built, 21 percent were abandoned as lemons; 27 percent have failed at least once for a year or more. Even successful reactors must close for refueling every 17 months for 39 days. And when shut by grid failure, they can't quickly restart. Wind farms don't do that.

Variable but forecastable renewables (wind and solar cells) are very reliable when integrated with each other, existing supplies and demand. For example, three German states were more than 30 percent wind-powered in 2007—and more than 100 percent in some months. Mostly renewable power generally needs less backup than utilities already bought to combat big coal and nuclear plants' intermittence.

Micropower delivers a sixth of total global electricity, a third of all new electricity and from a sixth to more than half of all electricity in 12 industrial countries (in the United States it's only 6 percent). In 2006, the global net capacity added by nuclear power was only 83 percent of that added by solar cells, 10 percent that of wind power and 3 percent that of micropower. China's distributed renewables grew to seven times its nuclear capacity and grew seven times faster. In 2007, the United States, China and Spain each added more wind capacity than the world added nuclear capacity. Wind power added 30 percent of new U.S. and 40 percent of EU capacity, because it's two to three times cheaper than new nuclear power. Which part of this doesn't Moore understand?

The punch line: nuclear expansion buys two to 10 times less climate protection per dollar, far slower than its winning competitors. Spending a dollar on new nuclear power rather than on negawatts (energy conservation/efficiency) thus has a worse climate effect than spending that dollar on new coal power. Attention, Dr. Moore: you're making climate change worse.

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Captain Angry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Lovins is an interesting guy.
I've seen him interviewed several times. They have some neat stuff at their institute as well. They're growing banana trees indoors up in the mountains of Colorado to recycle the air.

And he always hits the nail on the head with the conservation piece. Why generate power that is not used? Wasteful appliances and house construction are half the reason the collective power draw continues to go up. Fix the efficiency and we can cut the amount of new power that needs to be generated.

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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thanks, I think so too, he descrribes what RMI does as institutional acupuncture.
He is reviled by some for working with Walmart, BUT he is giving them the ability to make their giant truck fleet massively efficient, which will cause trucks with these kind of improvements to be massively manufactured and then available to others who will have to buy the trucks that use half the fuel in order to stay competitive. RMI is also currently working to stimulate auto energy efficiency by goosing along hybrids, plug-in hybrids, ethanol manufacture, and streamlining and lightweighting auto bodies.
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Captain Angry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The streamlining and lightweighting are so important.

It's silly that we have a 3000 pound vehicle to move 150-300 pounds of people and cargo.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You're right. I was really shocked the first time I drove a Prius because it was
so much heavier feeling than my old Tercel--though it certainly is streamlined. The new prototype /Toyota plug-in hybrid features a lot lighter weight--I think they are using a carbon fiber body.
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Captain Angry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Toyota is going to surprise the world one of these days and introduce a 100mpg car.

And Ford may have to buy General Motors. I can't see Detroit competing with something so far ahead.

The Prius is very heavy, and the sightlines suck. My parents liked my hybrid so much they went and bought a Prius. (I drive the Ford Escape for the cargo space and ability to handle large amounts of snow).

I've seen some rumor sites talking about the 2010 model years being the big advance. We'll see next year I guess.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Here's the description from the RMI 08 spring newsletter, p.5:
"Toyota’s impressive 1/X carbon-fi ber concept car (2007) has the interior space of a
Prius midsize hybrid, but is three times lighter and twice as fuel-efficient. Its half-liter fl ex-fuel
engine, tucked under the rear seat, is supplemented by grid electricity via 20 extra kg of batteries.
Th e plug-in hybrid’s remaining curb mass, 400 kg, is exactly what I’d claimed in 1991 (to
much industry mirth) a good carbon-fiber four-seater could weigh."

I think the car looks very sleek and attractive.very
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. Since '05 I have only placed 4 DUers on ignore
One is gone due to being TSed but two of the remaining three, got placed on my ignore list for trying to convince me with their utter nonsense regarding Nuke Energy as the panacea of our times! Oh and their condescending remarks didn't help them with their case either...not sure which reason I stuck em on ignore for but if there is a Lord in Heaven, I hope those two see this.
:rofl:

*idiot: Someone who thinks to convince me that Nuclear Reactors are America's best hope for cheap, safe energy in our near future!

Most Cheerfully: KnR
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thanks, I mostly ignore their mentally ill BS, but I do like reading the responses ;)
Edited on Fri May-30-08 02:50 AM by diane in sf
P.S they will see this and be farting all over it sometime tomorrow morning EST.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. I will probably be ignored
but the fact is that right now nuclear energy is probably providing at least 5% of the enengy your computer is using while you read this post, and wind/solar/thermal is providing 1/10 of that.

It's doing it cheaply, cleanly, and efficiently.

I know to whom you're referring with the condescending part, and although I don't agree with his methods his numbers are accurate. Q: Is labeling someone an "idiot" because they disagree with you condescending?
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Not true, my power comes from PG&E, which is mostly natural gas and renewables
and nukes are not cheap or clean.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Almost 1/4 of your power is nuclear
Edited on Fri May-30-08 03:57 PM by wtmusic
which generates a negligible amount of C02 and is considered "climate neutral".

PG&E power generation from natgas produced 155 billion metric tons of atmospheric C02 in 2007. Unless you subscribe to the more expensive Green Source program, natgas provides 44% of your power.

http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/explanationofbill/billinserts/



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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Here is the chart for all US production (much more coal)
Edited on Fri May-30-08 05:10 PM by bhikkhu




Its an interesting comparison.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
39. You are correct! I'll have to go to Sacramento to do better on my power mix.
Edited on Sat May-31-08 01:16 AM by diane in sf
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. And look where we are today with oil products...
Does this mean we need to continue with oil? Sorry I am not buying into the argument that our current use of a product indicates that we are using the best product! As you are well aware we have had things shoved down our throats by the profiteers and items which may have been better for our environment have been suppressed DELIBERATELY by those same greedy bastards.

You say; "It's doing it cheaply cleanly and efficiently."

First cheaply: This OP demonstrates where cheaply is not entirely accurate, here is another example where 'cheaply' did not apply: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/century/power.shtml Seattle dodged that bullet, the United Nuke Industry tried to shove this down our throats and would try again if they could!

Next Cleanly: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Tell ya what, when all the spent depleted uranium munitions and it's byproduct depleted uranium oxide is cleaned up throughout the middle east and elsewhere, DO get back to me on that cleanly thing. Here, if you need to check into the whys and wherefores and horrors of depleted uranium munitions:
http://www.life.com/Life/essay/gulfwar/gulf01.html
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2004/DU-Dennis-Kyne1jul04...
http://civillibertarian.blogspot.com/2005/11/radioactiv...
http://www.grassrootspeace.org/depleted_uranium.html
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/du_syndrome.html
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/pentagon_brass.ht...
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2004/DU-Trojan-Horse1jul0...
http://www.cadu.org.uk/info/health/index.htm
http://www.wise-uranium.org/indexd.html
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformities...
http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html (graphic)
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0305/S00050.htm
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2006/DU-Europe-Moret26feb...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Efficiently: depends on use of the term,...the internal combustion engine is pretty efficient too and obviously in widespread use throughout the planet... does that mean it is/was our best recourse? GUESS WHO would fiercely tell us that those engines are our best recourse...yep BIG OIL. Do ya suppose they would argue that this particular efficiency is effectively raising our greenhouse gasses???? Nope, not if they didn't have to...but I will, even if BIG OIL supporters will not. Nuke proponents won't look to the harm done to us or our environment when they discuss efficiency...but I will. Efficiency, in my book covers a broader spectrum than the nuts and bolts of the engine, it's fuel source to energy output ratios....it includes what harm it does due to it's use as well.

Lastly: Is labeling someone an 'idiot' for disagreeing with me condescending? Yep. But that is not what I do! I have no issue with folks who disagree with me. There have been cases where I have had my opinions changed here in the DU by folks I disagreed with. The idiots are the ones who think to change my opinion that Nuke Reactors are the best way to go for our future energy needs when clearly I have shown I am not interested in hearing their arguments. I do not care if they want to think that Nuke energy is best, live and let live....I DO care if they choose to pick a fight with me when it is plain to see that I am firmly entrenched with my opinions regarding this topic. Can you now see where I am at with this?

We disagree...I have no problem with this disagreement. Now that you can clearly see my position, I hope you don't decide to join the 2 IDIOTS who thought to pick fruitless FIGHTS with me when they too could plainly see my position. They thought to paint me as the idiot BECAUSE of my position when they knew it was not budge-able! That is sheer idiocy in my book. Wanna guess where I stand politically? Yep I am a Democrat, wanna try and change me into a bush supporter? THAT would be equally impossible and after a bit of discussion one would plainly see that this was the case. If after discovering how strongly I was against bush one wanted to paint me the bad guy, I would call them IDIOTS too...that is EXACTLY what the two I have on ignore tried unsuccessfully to do! They were IDIOTS and I firmly stand by that assertion.

There is plenty enough evidence for all to plainly see that nuke energy is both a nightmare and a boon! Some chose to ignore the horror and look only at the boon, I have chosen to look at the horror. Mankind does not NEED these issues! FAR too much damage has been done already and in my book this does not balance out with the good provided! No amount of pie charts or further debate is going to eliminate that damage done and good intentions won't prevent further damage from being done. Not to mention, I see the Nuke Energy bosses in the same way I see the Big Oil bosses:GREEDY BASTARDS WHO DON'T GIVE A RATS BUTT ABOUT YOU OR I! I have no problem treating them as they would treat me, with utter disdain.

Tell ya what, when you can convince this lady of your arguments: http://www.helencaldicott.com/
then I'll be willing to debate this further. I want to make myself just as plain to you as I did to the idiots: I am NOT interested in this debate in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, you have your opinions, I have mine. To me, too much damage has been done, too many tears have been shed, too many have died because of this 'monster/genie'. I am convinced that mankind can do better for themselves. The nuke shills waste their time with me PERIOD!
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. I see one of "them" has joined us below.
Snarky shill for nuclear, as usual........he already hates Lovins in a sickly obsessive way, so anything Lovins says is immediately derided as nothing but lies and delusions.....

Oy.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
9. On Thom Hartmann's show a week ago or so, liability is also an issue...

It was noted that without the government taking ownership (aka US the taxpayer taking ownership) of the liability for the damages caused by nuclear accidents, there really wouldn't be investments in the nuclear industry. A lot of what has been invested in it so far is under the assumption that if an accident did happen, the federal government would pick up the tab.

An industry that relies on that sort of corporate welfare for it to get started doesn't deserve to get started, much less continued!
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. If it was a viable industry it certainly shouldn't be needing subsidies 50 years
into its history. And I will say the same about oil companies. Why should we be subsidizing them, especially while they are making record profits and awarding their executives with $400M golden parachutes. We need to finance getting out from under oil, not killing people to control the world's dwindling supplies.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
11. We can do better than turning us all into future human glow sticks
Coal is killing us, I realize that but jumping out of the frying pan into the fire, as more nukes would be, is insane. Theres much more the government could do for us in this regard. I'm ready for a robust government that works for us, all of us not just the privileged few.
Thanks and Recommended
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. Gotta love Amory.
He announced "the revolution already happened-sorry if you missed it" at the same time the chinese started building a GW coal plant every 3 days.

Now, it's "Nuclear Market Meltdown" at the time when The Czech Republic, the UK, the Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, Hungary, South Africa, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Greece, Ireland, Italy and the Netherlands are all building, or planning on building, new reactors.

Hey, Amory - Where's my fucking hypercar?
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. You probably will be able to buy a 100mpg or ng car in about two years from GM, Toyota
Honda or one of the electric car startups. They will be using carbon fiber bodies and combo electric/combustion/plug-in or no combustion. Probably not hydrogen yet--but hey--no one's predictions are completely accurate or timely.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #27
42. Amory's certainly aren't.
I find Lovins particularly irritating, since his raison d'être seems to be proclaiming everything has been sorted and outfits like Wallmart are environmentally friendly. Bjørn Lomborg looks like Rachel Carson in comparison: Given that I could cheerfully beat Lomborg to death with a lump of lignite, you can imagine how much Lovins gets on my nerves.

Yes, we have cars made of lightweight composites and we'll probably have mass-produced hydrogen ones before too long. But it won't be down to anything the RMI have done, unless someone finds a a way to convert self-promotion into elemental hydrogen.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. Meanwhile, look at what our taxes may go to:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x362521

"Half-Trillion Dollars for nuclear plants..... Lieberman-Warner"
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. For how much energy?
Or are we not supposed to talk about "energy" on E/E?
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Probably vast amounts...
if the idea was to retire fossil fuel power generation, then there would be a bright side.

In any case, conservation - a change in lifestyles - is the easiest real solution. We have a standard of living equivalent to Europe's while consuming twice the energy per capita.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Getting to Europes use pc is only 1/2 the problem
We, as a species, use ~650 EJ of energy per year: about 1/3 of which is electricity, 1/3 of which is transport, and 1/3 is manufactuing.

The question is not, therefore, "how can we save energy", but "how can we generate the other 2/3 cleanly?"

We need to ban fossil fuels immediately. The only question is, what is the fastest way to do it?
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well, plenty to argue there
Saying we need to do nothing personally to change our behaviors, while the energy industry must do everything to change its behavior....

Most people I talk to want to know "what can I do?",
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. The value of changing personal behaviour
Edited on Fri May-30-08 11:22 AM by GliderGuider
There have been a lot of arguments about this over the last few years. For a long time I was on the side that said thee was no point to asking individuals to change their behaviour, because the scale of the problem is to big for individual efforts to matter.

Then I modified my position to acknowledge the fact that personal changes can improve the chances of the individual making them. Then I added in the Power of Large Numbers, with the thought that if a whole bunch of people changed there might be some macroscopic effect. I now think that another benefit of persuading people to make personal changes in in the effect that the awareness of the problem will have on them overall. They become more likely to analyze the larger problem set, and make changes in other aspects of their lives as a result.

They also have to accept that there is a problem, and that acceptance will equip them to understand the reason for externally imposed changes like carbon taxes, gasoline (and possibly food?) rationing, one child policies etc.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. I did drop my electric use by 40% by changing my refrigerator and 4 lightbulbs,
I live in a 1200 sq ft flat. Imagine if every household could drop their usage by 10-25- or 50%. I think it could easily be done with changes in appliances and lighting. When my washer goes I'm going to get a front loader and drop my water usage.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
41. That's not what I'm saying at all
My point is that it is not enough to address the problem as individuals: The energy required to build a hospital or shift a train full of wheat doesn't go away just because we've put CF bulbs in and use a bicycle. We need to solve thewhole problem.

And yes, fixing industrial & transport use but not changing our individual behaviour = still fucked.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Agreed...and sometimes its hard not to argue out of simple frustration
when we are basically in agreement. I am an optimist in my own community, but it is difficult being a global or even a national optimist. I'm working on it.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. Bushes' friends will probably suck up most of that money and build few or none
of those proposed plants.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
17. The Achilles' heel of Lovins' concept of soft energy
"One criticism leveled at decentralized energy technologies is that, generally, the large, centralized methods produce energy much more efficiently than small, distributed plants."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_energy_path

Well-meaning Lovins is killing the Earth by a thousand cuts by assuming that millions of micropower producers which are 50% efficient somehow add up to less damage than one large producer that is 80% efficient.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. You overlook the inefficiencies of power transmission over large distances
through an aging grid. Micropower is very local and does not suffer those particular inefficiencies.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Line loss is typically 8-10%
and is factored into efficiency.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. Some additional info on micropower econ from RMI's spring 08 newsletter
Edited on Sat May-31-08 01:31 AM by diane in sf
wtmusic: where does your relative efficiency info come from?

"Small Is Fast, Low-Risk, and High in Total Potential

Small, quickly built units are faster to deploy for a given total effect than a few big, slowly built units. Widely accessible choices that sell like cellphones and PCs can add up to more, sooner, than ponderous plants that get built like cathedrals. And small units are much easier to match to the many small pieces of electrical demand. Even a multimegawatt wind turbine can be built so quickly that the U.S. will probably have a hundred billion watts of them installed before it gets its first one billion watts of new nuclear capacity, if any.

Small, quickly built units also have far lower financial risks than big, slow ones. This gain in financial economics
is the tip of a very large iceberg: micropower’s more than 200 different kinds of hidden financial and technical
benefits can make it about ten times more valuable (www.smallisprofitable.org) than implied by current prices or
by the cost comparisons above. Most of the same benefits apply to negawatts as well.

Despite their small individual size, micropower generators and electrical savings are already adding up to huge
totals. Indeed, over decades, negawatts and micropower can shoulder the entire burden of powering the economy.
The Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), the utilities’ think-tank, has calculated the U.S. negawatt
potential (cheaper than just running an existing nuclear plant and delivering its output) to be two to three times
nuclear power’s 19 percent share of the U.S. electricity market; RMI’s more detailed analysis found even more.
Cogeneration in factories can make as much U.S. electricity as nuclear does, plus more in buildings, which
use 69 percent of U.S. electricity.

Windpower at acceptable U.S. sites can cost-effectively produce at least twice the nation’s total electricity use,
and other renewables can make even more without significant land-use, variability, or other constraints. Thus
just cogeneration, windpower, and efficient use—all profitable—can displace nuclear’s current U.S. output
roughly 14 times over."
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. I can't find much hard data on micropower efficiency
but Wikipedia and this reference from The Journal of Power Sources:

"In particular, the present efficiency of micropower generators that are being developed is still relatively low."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TH1-4MV1H33-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=87162ea84f5911a248490f6bd31ab73f

tend to confirm an intuitive view that like transportation -- where mass transit systems are far more efficient at moving people from place to place than lone drivers -- power generation has economies of scale that when neglected reduce efficiency considerably. Large wind turbines vs. small windmills; large PV arrays vs. rooftop arrays, etc.

Interesting debate at physicsworld.com: Do We Need Nuclear Power? (pro and con)

The bottom line, in my POV:

"If we are to stabilize the emission of carbon dioxide by the middle of the 21st century, we need to replace 2000 fossil-fuel power stations in the next 40 years, equivalent to a rate of one per week. Can we find 500 km2 each week to install 4000 windmills? Or perhaps we could cover 10 km2 of desert each week with solar panels and keep them clean? Tidal power can produce large amounts of energy, but can we find a new Severn estuary and build a barrage costing £9bn every five weeks?

Nuclear power, however, is a well tried and reliable source, whereas the alternatives listed by Anderson are mainly hope for the future and have yet to prove themselves. At the height of new nuclear construction in the 1980s, an average of 23 new nuclear reactors were being built each year, with a peak of 43 in 1983. A construction rate of one per week is therefore practicable.

I hold no special brief for nuclear power. If there were another way of providing our energy needs without destroying the Earth, I would support it. I am not, I must admit, happy about the dangers of nuclear radiation. I know that, in the hands of engineers at, say, Sizewell, nuclear power is extremely safe, but I can think of many places that would not inspire me with the same confidence. There is always the fallibility of human nature, and the danger that politics will domineer engineering prudence, although the same could be said of all modern technology. Strict controls and eternal vigilance are therefore the price we must pay for its benefits."

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/128

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
21. In the Northwest US, inveastors are still spooked by the WPPSS debacle
Edited on Fri May-30-08 11:38 AM by depakid
Everyone (including ratepayers) lost a lot of money over their mismanagement in building too many nuclear power plants too fast- though curiously enough, they've "rebranded" and are having a go with wind:

Energy Northwest has been working to exorcise the ghosts of the infamous Washington Public Power Supply System for the past 20 years, and now at least some of those ghosts may be on the run.

The consortium of 16 public utilities, which changed its name to Energy Northwest in 1999, has been haunted since 1982 by the stigma of defaulting on $2.2 billion worth of bonds - at the time the largest municipal default in history - and the mothballing of two nuclear power plants that were under construction.

But recently the consortium received its first vote of investor confidence in almost three decades, raising $70 million to finance a wind energy project near Finley, in south-central Washington.

"First they were a catastrophe, then they became a joke," said Bob Royer, communications director at Seattle City Light. "Their reputation could not have been more soiled. They've come a long way since then."

The financing for the 48-megawatt Nine Canyon Wind Project marked the first time since 1972 that Energy Northwest has been able to sell a bond, and officials hope it will be a turning point as they try to remake the Richland-based organization into a developer of clean, renewable energy.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. This is the same asshole who said that nuclear power was dead in 1980.
When your outlook is nothing more than dogma - when reality is not conflict with faith - you are a fundie, plain and simple.

Lovins, of course, is a special brand of fundie, the kind who takes huge - and I do mean huge - pay offs from oil and gas companies and car culture companies.
\
His pal - Jeff Skilling of Enron - claimed he would eat the next nuclear power plant that was built. I have no idea if they serve nuclear plants in Federal Prison, but unlike his fellow fraud - Lovins has never been arrested for being a liar and a fraud.

Anyone who reads Lovins' tripe has only themselves to blame for the 400 ppm figure now being obtained for dangerous fossil fuel waste in the atmosphere.

Since Lovins announced in 1980 that nuclear power was dead (for economic reasons no less), 1 trillion tons of dangerous fossil fuel waste has been dumped in the atmosphere, inflating the morally vapid of the dumb and incredibly ignorant anti-nuke cult faith.

All fundie faiths kill through ignornance, but as we are seeing at 400 ppm, the anti-nuke faith is about to set a new record.

Amory has nothing to worry about, up there at high altitude in Snowmass with his fellow glitterati, unless of course, someone recognizes what his moral onus in all of this is.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. He was right
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Really? Care to cite a reference to his Foreign Affairs papers?
Edited on Fri May-30-08 09:34 PM by NNadir
Let me guess.

The answer is no.

Why am I not surprised?

I'll tell you why. Because the anti-nuke fundie faith based ignorance is famous, if nothing else, for its laziness.

You have no idea what the contents of the Walmart apologist's literature is, because it is the policy of fundie anti-nukes to regurgitate third and fourth hand the abysmal fatal ignorance that has put 400 ppm of dangerous fossil fuel waste into the atmosphere.

There is ZERO evidence that you have read any of that faith based crap in the two anti-science articles he published in 1980 and 1976 saying 1) Wind and solar were just around the corner. 2) Nuclear power is dead.

I have produced verbatim, in many posts here and elsewhere word for word, with references excerpts from Lovins faith based rantings. It would therefore be useless - especially in the face of the moral opacity that always accompanies ignorance - to reproduce such references here. It's not like there is ONE fundie anti-nuke who bothers to follow references.

Here, however, is a photograph of your hero taking a payoff, um, I mean "donation" from the shit heels at Walmart:



Here's the shit heel who has never bothered to look up how much carbon is burned hauling that plastic shit from the sweatshops of Asia bragging about how "green" Walmart is:

http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid419.php

Now, I morally abhor the kind of shit-for-brains anti-nuke who announces proudly that he or she is holding out until 2010 to buy a Prius so he or she can get a pluggable version while people starve in 2008. Frankly I don't want to hear any more of the dumb ass self-serving morally excusing promises from fundies.

But really, it's pretty much a new low when we have people coming here to Democratic Underground to push an illiterate guru who would write this incredible text about Walmart:

In that speech, Scott announced Walmart's-Mart’s new environmental goals, which included using 100 percent renewable energy, creating zero waste, and selling products that sustain natural resources and the environment.


Walmart?

Zero waste?

What, exactly, does Walmart claim comes out of the tailpipes in their parking lots. The smokestacks of diesels?

Don't know? Don't care?

Why am I not surprised?

Anti-nuke fundies are an illiterate lot I find, and besides having contempt for science and knowing no science, it's pretty obvious that they are equally oblivious to history.

Still, for anyone who knows history, it is probably, in this context, useful to quote Joseph Welch, who in 1954 brought down Joe McCarthy with words that are appropriate here: "You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"

Have you no sense of decency, at long last?

Never mind, contemplating the long streams of plastic garbage stretching across the Pacific, I already know the answer to that question.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-30-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You have to be the most obnoxious person I've ever encountered in my 60 years
are you so senile as to not know better or are you so blind as to not see.
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?" Joseph Welch

Obnoxious: odiously or disgustingly objectionable : highly offensive



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Zachstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Where is all the solar and wind farms eh?
Attacking Nnadir does nothing because the fact is YOU did not give us the energy instead YOU (The anti-nuke fools in my view) protested NASA using RTGs.

Utterly useless. Yall out to be ashamed of yourselves.


Why is my power bill not 5 dollars?

Why is coal use skyrocketing?
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. That would be "where are"--they are all over the place with more built all the time.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. Drink much???
Attacking, huh. Imagine that

Where would one start with a reply to this kind of jive.




Jive a: glib, deceptive, or foolish talk b: the jargon of hipsters c: a special jargon of difficult or slang terms

Have a great day there Zachstar, btw I plan to ;-)
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Madokie, why do you bother to read his stuff? It's no facts frosted with abuse.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. True that
I'll try to do better, ok :-)
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #35
47. I don't pull punches with ethical cripples.
Let's be clear: Ignorance kills.

Ignorance is not neutral.

It does not deserve to be coddled.

Every single fundementalist anti-nuke works for ignorance.

Once again: Ignorance kolls.

Got it?

No?

Why am I not surprised?
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