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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:00 PM
Original message
Whaling ship rammed in Antarctic
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 01:40 PM by grantdevine
Source: NewstalkZB


27/12/2008 13:09:51

The anti-whaling group Sea Shepherd is being accused of attacking the Japanese vessel Kaiko Maru in Antarctica.

The Kaiko Maru claims protesters used their vessel the Steve Irwin to ram and throw bottles of butyric acid onto the Japanese ship.



Read more: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=150...



When I catch someone lying it takes a long time to gain back my trust.

Sea Shepherd lost my trust years ago when it lied about the cause of John Efford's retirement.

So now, when a Japanese boat claims one thing and Sea Shepherd claims another, I tend to think the truth is not coming from Sea Shepherd.

They've demonstrated to me they will lie if they think it suits their political or fund raising goals.


EDIT: for those not familiar with Sea Shepherd's past dishonesty:

Sea Shepherd's lie: Canadian minister "forced to resign" due to pressure from anti-sealers:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb314420.htm

The truth: Canadian minister retires due to diabetes:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/11/18/efford-electi...
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm guessing their political goal is to save the life of a Mammal(s)?
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 01:06 PM by trumad
Well I say ---lie away...


BTW: Dumb fucking post.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. I frankly think whaling ships should be sunk on sight.
As such I don't care what this group may have done.
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Me too.
Whaling is brutal, stupid, and totally wrong.

I personally avoid buying anything from Japan and will do so until they stop whaling. And I really want a Prius.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
38. Get a new Fusion hybrid. Frankly, it also looks better.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. As interesting as your opinion is, it doesn't change my opinion that Sea Shepherd can't be trusted..
..and perhaps, if they're smart, they'll consider the long term implications of such a reputation.

Does it really serve their purpose? Will it help achieve their goals?

If you care about whales and want whaling to stop, then what brings that goal closer to realization? An activist group that doesn't lie, or one that does?
Forget about whether you care if they lie or ram ships or not, just consider it objectively. When they lie like they did, they lose more ground that is very difficult to make up.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
77. sorry. people > animals
no matter how awful the human is, they are still a human, and as such they have more rights than an animal, no matter how majestic. there's a better solution than violence towards people.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. Criminal lose rights
Whale hunting is a crime
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #85
110. not the right to live.
if those ships sink, and any whaler no matter how despicable their actions may be dies, the sea shepherd group should be held accountable.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #77
106. Depends on the person.
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 11:15 PM by Zynx
People can lose their value rapidly through their actions. People seeking to rape the earth for the sake of profit are not worth what the most majestic creatures on this planet are.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #106
111. psh. what next then?
should we euthanize anyone that we feel "lost their value?" people are the most majestic creatures on this planet, even the scum who rape the earth.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #111
117. That's an entirely different standard than stopping someone in the act of a crime.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
87. yes I too believe the killers must go
and if anything, from the BBC reports I read it was just the opposite, the Japanese rammed the SI. So it goes with the Japan PR syndicate. MFers!

:grr:
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
100. So, your point of view is that
those sailors trying to support their families back in Japan should be murdered by the folks ramming their ships?
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #100
107. I'm sorry, but they could pick an honorable profession.
The "they're just supporting their families" argument is a very weak one. The same could be said of pirates and mercenaries. Both of those groups should just be shot on sight.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #107
112. no, it's very different than being a pirate out murdering PEOPLE
your argument cheapens the life of any person who was ever killed by a pirate or mercenary. it is disgusting to equate human lives with whales.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. Most modern pirates never kill anyone. They just steal.
I suppose they're just fine then. After all, they're supporting their families with stolen goods and not hurting anyone. Hell, they're just destroying property. They're even better than whalers because they're not even damaging wild life.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. completely lame.
give up.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #107
113. the ordinary seaman or the wiper in the engine
room is just an ordinary sailor. A blue collar working stiff trying to earn a living. Lets murder him because of the voyage he signed on for.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #113
116. I repeat, does the same apply for pirates?
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #116
120. What that sailor is doing is not illegal.
what the pirate does is illegal, if captured he should suffer the consequences of his illegal activity. Hold the masters and owners of the whalers culpable for their activities. I do not any way support calling for death or injury to the sailors of those ships, because the ship is engaged in whaling any more than I could call for the death or injury of coal miners because their product promotes global warming. Again, hold the mine owners and the industries that use the coal responsibile, not the miners.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. JApanese whalling is 100% legal.
Just like effing freepers you ignorant clods think and "learn" by yelling at each other in these echo chambers of misinformation until you are totally detached from reality and are nothing but a clueless band of zealots blindly wandering the wilderness.

Try reading some objective history.

Review and comment on Scientific Permits issued for scientific research

The right of national authorities to issue permits for the killing of whales for scientific purposes is given in Article VIII of the Convention (IWC, 1999b). Prior to 1982, over 100 permits had been issued by a number of governments including Canada, USA, USSR, South Africa and Japan. The issuance of such permits has become a major area of discussion since the moratorium and three countries (Japan, Norway and Iceland), have issued scientific permits as part of their research programmes since 1982. Currently permits are issued by Japan to take minke whales in areas of the Southern Hemisphere and the North Pacific. Governments must provide details of proposed permits for review by the Committee (IWC, 1999k). In recent years, the Committee and the Commission have developed a number of guidelines for the review of such proposals (e.g. see IWC, 1998b, pp. 103-5). The Japanese Southern Hemisphere programme is a long-term project and the results have recently been extensively reviewed by the Committee (IWC, 1998a). A similar review of the North Pacific programme is scheduled for the year 2000.
http://www.iwcoffice.org/publications/editorial01.htm
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rawtribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sea Shepherd films
every action. If they are telling the truth they can back it up with video.

Fuck the Japanese whalers.


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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. So you're saying if Sea Shepherd actually did ram the whalers
they would film it and provide that film to the public?

Or they might decide a denial would serve their purposes more, and the truth be damned.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You mean like this?
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. What a crappy video. Not really a video at all.
A still shot and a bunch of written prop.

As I watch it I can't help thinking, "Are they telling the truth THIS time?"

Trust is a shitty thing to lose, and Sea Shepherd lost mine.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Daryl Hannah wouldn't lie to us. n/t
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
60. Well...
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 03:05 PM by Chan790
since they don't do the filming for Whale Wars, it's filmed by an independent production company paid for by Animal Planet (a subsidiary of Discovery Networks) who has:

1.) Contracts stipulating that SSCS has no rights to restrict or censor their content.

2.) A third-party neutrality whose interest is vested in getting the best TV content and not in the whale-saving cause.

3.) Not flinched thus far from showing the truth even when that truth makes SSCS look like idiots or extremists.

I'd say that what Sea Shepard might decide is less than relevant. Animal Planet is going to show the footage of what really happened whether it benefits SSCS or the Japanese whalers because it will make great TV and draw amazing ratings.

Edit: That was overly mean, even for me.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Is Animal Planet on the boat now? The current accusations/denials happened just this week. n/t
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Yup.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Well, there's no footage of the current clash yet. It's ironic...
..and given your screen name, you'll appreciate the irony, I'm sure.

Watching some deleted scenes of Whale Wars on the Animal Planet website and counted 3 or 4 of the Sea Shepherd crew anxious to get back to port where they plan to have juicy steak or meat of some sort.

Something not quite adding up there...
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Why would Animal Planet post their video? They're. making. a. show.
What irony would I appreciate? That certain volunteer crew aren't vegan? The ship is a vegan environment, and I don't really care what the volunteer crew do in their own time. You know, some folks volunteer and animal shelters here in the US, yet eat meat. Sorry, but your little "gotcha" screams epic fail.

Given your screen name, can I call you Donald?
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Uh...
You're confused, I wasn't implying the scene was deleted for some particular reason.

It's. A. Deleted. Scene. Posted. On. Animal. Planet's. website.

Understand now?

And yes, the ship is a vegan environment, apparently. One of the crew comments that the food is all vegan.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. I'm not confused.
You stated that there was no footage from the current clash. I stated that since they're currently making a show, why would they post it? Putting up all the highlights of next season's show probably would be unwise. You see why that is, right?
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. I never expeced this weeks clash would be posted.
I just stated that it wasn't, and therefore we don't have any video evidence one way or the other yet.

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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Sea Shepherd, as you know, usually has their own videographers on board.
I suspect we'll have some video shortly.
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. They're filming a second season to show summer 2009...
so I'd think so. I don't know for sure though.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. butyric acid
elsewhere that was reported as being bottles of rancid butter. Is that the same thing ?
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I think butyric acid comes from rancid butter. n/t
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. AFP: "Activists attack Japanese whalers with stink bombs" ... Good for them!
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jaundicedi Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. Butyric acid is the componant
that makes rancid butter smell. Saying they threw acid sounds much more provocative though.
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Butyric acid
Makes up about 4 percent of butter. When the butter goes rancid, the butyric acid is liberated and is responsible for the bad smell of rancid butter. It's a fatty acid with a Ph of somewhere around 5.0, which isn't very acidic at all. Acid rain is 5.2. Grapes are more acidic. Lemon juice is 2.3. Orange juice is 3-4. So calling it an acid, as the Japanese press does, is sensationalizing the issue.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. butyric acid is what makes rancid butter smell the way it does
Ever synthesize isoamyl acetate in chemistry class? Smells like bananas.
We also made another ester that smelled like vomit, but I can't remember what that's called.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I sense a new cologne product...
For repukes. ;-)
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. And the Japanese whalers haven't lied?
Oh, excuse me - the Japanese "research vessels".
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Ah, so now you see the problem? Sea Shepherd lies, the whalers lie, the Japanese government lies...
..they'll all liars.

If Sea Shepherd had a strict policy of not lying then they would be believed.

Any objective observer familiar with the history of Sea Shepherd can see they have lied in the past when they thought it suited their PR purposes.

That puts them in the position of making claims and counter-claims on the high seas that we can't believe any more or less than what the whalers claim.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. And if Sea Shepherd *is* lying, this makes it wrong... how? n/t
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. That's a question you can only answer for yourself. My answer
as it pertains to me, is this:

If Sea Shepherd lies then they can't be trusted. That is simple logic. If they can't be trusted, then the public stops believing them. More logic. If the public stops believing them, then what? Does that matter? I believe it does. Sea Shepherd obviously wishes to court public opinion. If their only goal was to stop the whalers then they wouldn't update blogs, post videos, news releases, etc. They want to court public opinion in their favor/against whaling. Their past lying hurts their ability to do that.

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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. In that case, you should use your own judgement about what is right and what is wrong.
Most people agree: Killing whales is wrong. Stopping those who would kill is right.

So, unless you've got a hankerin' for whale sushi...
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Leftest Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
105. You're quick to judge them liars without any proof.
Do you have a problem with the concept of innocent until proven guilty?

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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Yessss, verrrry interesting use of language, "research"....now where
have I heard that word before used to apply to criminal acts?

Meng, Menge,....well, I'm sure whoever it is is just as believable and credible and research-minded as the Japanese research vessels!
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Sea Shepherd has TV cameras onboard. We'll know the truth soon enough. n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
12. Personal profit should NEVER come through causing suffering.
What deluded fool cannot grasp this absolute truth?

Why would you imagine Democrats would support the whalers? Democrats are deeper, and more decent than that.

Grow a pair of moral you-know-whats. Don't try to champion the cause of monsters to people who know better.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Wha?
Your post makes no sense at all.

:shrug:
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
46. "What deluded fool cannot grasp this absolute truth?"
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
48. Question - are you a religious person?
Bear with me, please. I am going somewhere with this...
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Then just go there.
You don't need me to answer the question to make the point you want to make.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
68. I take it you can't anwser my question either?
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
96. Actually, never mind.
I can read your other posts and see where you stand. Or rather, where you don't stand.

I pity you.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. The Japanese lie about their "scientific research" aka. hunting endangered/threatened whale species
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 01:18 PM by ClarkUSA
Whalers deserve what they get, as far as I'm concerned. Who cares what you think, as long as the Japanese whaling ship is disabled?

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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Sure, who cares what I think. And who cares if Sea Shepherd lies.
Let them open up on the whalers with some rocket propelled grenades and then tell the media that an Iranian pirate boat did it, and stole their butter bombs too.

As long as the whales are saved, that's all that matters.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. You're making up shit now BUT you certainly don't care that the Japanese lie about their whaling.
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 01:37 PM by ClarkUSA
Gee, I wonder what's your agenda except to smear Sea Shepherd with unsubstantiated accusations?
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I'm "making shit up"? How easy it is for you to make a false claim.
Easy to deny the truth. You're not posting from captain Watson's boat, by any chance?

Chew on this, captain Watson:

Sea Shepherd's lie: Canadian minister "forced to resign" due to pressure from anti-sealers:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb314420.htm

The truth: Canadian minister retires due to diabetes:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/11/18/efford-electi...
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Yes, you are... what proof do you have that Sea Shepherd is lying about this incident?
None. :shrug:
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Speaking of "making shit up", I never said they were lying about this incident.
I only said they have lied in the past, and therefore I tend not to trust them.

That's how most people operate...if they're lied to by someone they tend to not trust them as easily in future.

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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Now you're splitting hairs... guess your distrust doesn't extend to known lies by the Japanese?
Are you here at DU to smear the Sea Shepherd? It won't work.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. How am I splitting hairs, exactly?
The truth is the truth.

And no, I'm not here to "smear Sea Shepherd"

I've made up my mind about them based on their willingness to be dishonest in the past. You can make up your mind.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. It's clear what you're trying to do here at DU. Your posts are all pro-Japanese, anti-Sea Shepherd.
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 02:32 PM by ClarkUSA
Guess there are nations who pay mercenary bloggers to spread anti-Sea Shepherd propaganda... not that that would ever happen at DU.

Heaven forbid.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Show me a "pro-Japanese" post. Just one.
And watch it with that bullshit about "mercenary bloggers". DU has rules, and that's crossing the line.

Argue with my evidence of Sea Shepherd's past lies. Stomp your feet and claim that Sea Shepherd never lies. Don't attack me personally though.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Here's one. You: "I believe the Japanese before I believe captain Watson."
The following OP is littered with your comments:

link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

As for mercenary bloggers, I didn't say you were one, so what's that about DU rules again?
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Hardly "pro-Japanese", but you managed to find one that approaches it.
So, congratulations.

I take it back, I don't believe either of them. I'm not pro or anti Japanese.

Simply pointing out that Sea Shepherd has lied in the past.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. And yet you have nothing bad to say about Japanese whalers lying about their "scientific research"
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 02:40 PM by ClarkUSA
By your yardstick, why should we believe a word of what the lying Japanese gov't. has to say? They've lied throughout
their history about their atrocities against man and nature.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. The yardstick I've provided is only a measure of Sea Shepherd
I'm not naive, I know the Japanese government lies about their whaling.

Do you accept that Sea Shepherd has lied? If not, why not?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I could care less. I detest all whaling nations and their apologists.
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 02:58 PM by ClarkUSA
Your axe-grinding is irrelevant to the deaths of helpless cetaceans. Someday, I hope all conservationists boycott Japanese products.
I know I have and so have many of my friends.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Maybe. I don't like seeing whales killed either, and that's why it's so unfortunate...
..that a group working to stop whales from being killed has thrown away it's credibility.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. The only entities that have lost credibility are Japan and other whaling nations.
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 03:19 PM by ClarkUSA
I support the Sea Shepherd in all of its endeavors. In fact, I am enjoying the holiday replay of "The Whale Wars" on Animal Planet.
Not only that, but this exchange with you has convinced me to donate to them for the first time in my life. :)
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. lol. Sure.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
84. You lied in the OP, and you're lying now
You just wrote "I never said they were lying about this incident"
yet in the OP you wrote "Sea Shepherd's lie: Canadian minister "forced to resign" due to pressure from anti-sealers:"
But there is no lie by Sea Shepherd in their press release.
You've just told two lies.
I guess we can't trust you anymore!
:rofl:

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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. I don't know what to say to you.
Do I need to explain that this incident is about whales, and is happening this week, and the example of them lying that I provided is from years ago?

Hopefully not.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. tell me how they lied about john efford's retirement...
... I don't know who John Efford is.

thanks
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. See the original post, I edited it to add that information. n/t
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. That's pretty lame evidence for the Federal Case you're making, by the way.
Looks like different points of view and/or spin, at worst...

... like a White House staffer resigning to spend more time with family.

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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Your analogy would make sense, if there was any evidence of controversy
In this case you fall flat because there was no sniff of anything that pointed to Efford being "forced" out. He had diabetes, and was getting old. That we know.

It's easy to make false claims and then say they can't be disproven, if that's you're point.
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Cass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
31. It wouldn't be the first time they've rammed a whaling ship and I hope
it's not the last.

As long as scum whaling ships roam the oceans intending to senselessly slaughter endangered species I hope Sea Sheperd is there to ram them again and again and again.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. You should apply as their PR person.
They could use a little honesty in that group.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
32. send the whalers to the bottom unless they're genuinely subsistance whaling....
Captain Watson speaks for me!
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Subsistence whaling is a myth
No one on the planet today needs whale meat.

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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
57. I agree. This is good news. Ram away, Captain!
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Dirigo Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Japanese As Barbaric As Alaska's Gov. Sarah "Airhead" Palin
AMEN! Ram Away Captain! The Japanese are becoming about as serious a threat to the environment and protected species as the Governor & Resident Airhead of Alaska Sarah Palin!
I've had vacationers visiting Alaska onboard cruise ships tell me they never saw an Eagle nor a Whale. Alaska under Gov. Palin has become a DEAD ZONE. This is not good for "business".
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. What time of the year were those vacationers visiting Alaska?
If it wasn't summer then they're not likely to see whales in those waters.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. Cruise ships only go to Alaska in the summer.
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. They run in the spring and fall as well. n/t
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remedy1 Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
45. Who cares....
If they are lying. They should blow up every Japanese whaling ship along with the crews that are on them.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. It's the OP's mission to attack the Sea Shepherd's credibility today on various threads about this.
Wonder why they are doing it and for whom? Hmmm...
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Can't someone speak the truth around you
without being accused of having nefarious connections or motives?

The truth is worth doing for the sake of it.

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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
71. Maybe grantdevine is THE Donald Grant Devine
As the former Progressive Conservative Premier of the Canadian province of Saskatchewan, a dislike for Sea Shepherd wouldn't surprise me, considering Saskatchewan's seal slaughter history. Might also be marching in lockstep with fellow Tory, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper who's been made to look the fool by Sea Shepherd over and over.

I dunno, though.
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snort Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #71
91. gee
what a coincidence.
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. I'll have to say at least he's doing something.
Greenpeace is more of mainstream outfit nowadays. Sea shepherd seems to be on the fringe, so while I'm not a total fan, for the Environment's sake I'll be rooting for the Steve Irwin. (which I believe was Christened by Irwin's widow) By that alone I have no choice but to believe that the Japanese rammed the boat.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
58. What a joke.
Got tired of getting beaten up in the other thread and went looking for an opposing story. Congratulations.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
62. I burden no man or woman with the task of perfect honesty
I am unaware of anyone capable of bearing that burden. Still, I have relationships and trust with people who I know to be (like myself) less than perfectly honest. No matter how pure our intent, we still labor under the Socratic curse: "Man, know thyself ... if thou canst!"

Sea Shepherd has used every weapon at its disposal ... including "spin" ... to further its purposes which I find to be ultimately noble: the protection of wild life. Watson and I have never liked each other. I find his philosophies extreme.

Having said that, I think he is a reasonably honest person compelled by powerful beliefs to extreme views and the practice of skillful sophistry. And, yeah, I do think he bends the truth a might from time to time. He wouldn't see it that way. (Reference: Above Socratic quote.) I admire him greatly, but will not follow him. I do not fault those who do.

The good Captain has done more than any other single person to disrupt operations that turn wildlife into cash and would be eager to plunder it all with total abandon were there not other forces (both legal and extralegal) that restrain them. I will take the Captain's faults as price for the Captain's valor, resourcefulness, and unwavering commitment. I extend to him and his crew the submariner's blessing: "Good luck, and good hunting."


Trav
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life long demo Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
80. Attack the whaling ships
Ram them. Disable them. Save the Whales. Disrupt the whale killing.

SAVE THE WHALES!

Japanese Whale hunters-> :spank: <-Sea Shepherd Society
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Strathos Donating Member (713 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
81. I hope they sink every ship that has the intent of killing whales
Just toss them some life jackets and let them swim home.

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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #81
101. So you are encouraging the murder
of sailors trying to support their families.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #101
108. What's your opinion of pirates? Just supporting their families?
How about mercenaries?
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #108
114. The ordinary seamen and firemen aboard these ships are
not pirates or mercenaries. They are sailors. Their next voyage could be on a fisherman, or a tanker or a break bulk carrier. They are not legally accountable for the actions of the vessels masters or the vessels owners. By all means hold the owners and the masters accountable for their actions. Blaming the sailors is about as intelligent as blaming the coal miners for global warming.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #114
118. I'm sorry, but I do not make this distinction.
This isn't the military. They have a choice. They fully know what their ships are doing. I could say the same thing for the mechanics on pirate vessels in Somalia. These are people engaging in criminal activity for the sole sake of profit.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. Just like the coal miners in West Virginia
They have a choice, they know what their product is doing. Shall we call for their deaths also because they support global warming. These people are engaging in criminal activity for the sole sake of earning a living.
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Strathos Donating Member (713 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. Exactly! By these people's reasoning-
Drug dealers are just doing their jobs.

Kiddie porn distributors are just doing their jobs.

The mob is just doing their job, try to support their family.


LMAO


Funny how a republican mentality spills over here on DU so often. Support the business because "families" need the money.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. You are the one advocating death to these people
that is about as a republican sentiment as I have seen. Dealing drugs is illegal. Kiddie porn is illegal, Mobs riots are illegal. Going to sea, or mining coal are not illegal. Yet you wish death on these people. You should take your sentiment to the FR. They would sympathize with you on wishing death on working people.
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S_E_Fudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
82. Sorry...the entire Japanese whaing industry is a study in dishonesty...
I have followed Sea Shepherd for many years and the efforts by the whaing and other industries to get them stopped...

I am far more inclined to believe Sea Shepherd...
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Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
83. If we kill our oceans, we die. Planet Earth dies soon afterward.
Removing creatures as magnificent as whales from the ecosystem of our oceans could have severe consequences. Whales play an important role in the food chain.

Our oceans are more fragile than the environment on land. The effects of environmental change are magnified tenfold.

Most of the oxygen we breathe is produced from the oceans.

I know, most DU'ers know these facts so my point is..

I'll stand with the Sea Sheperds and ALFs of the world. Their tactics may not always be popular, or legal. But, their motivation and what they fight for make them heroes in my eyes.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
88. I love 'Liberals' who defend slaughter of innocents!
:sarcasm:

it is just so blatantly disgusting it makes me sick.

:puke:
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Yeah, flvegan should be ashamed of post 74
defending people who eat the meat of innocent cows.

:rofl:

Oh wait, cows aren't innocent, right? Just whales.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. uh. I don't eat cows pigs or whales
Zero mammals in my diet. Ignorance is certainly revealing. :eyes:
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grantdevine Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. So what?
I wasn't talking about you.

Several of the crew on Sea Shepherd's boat were on video saying they can't wait to get back to port to eat some innocent cow. flvegan defended those monsters in post 74.

Makes ya sick, don't it?

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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Look Don, I appreciate the attention
but you just aren't helping your case any.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. Awww...I touched a nerve with somebody, eh?
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 05:35 PM by flvegan
edit: spelling
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #89
95. What?
He was pointing out why your "argument" was stupid and not really relevant, not defending an omnivorous diet for humans, which he would not do. (Note the screen name. Duh.)

FWIW, somebody asked about this at a Q&A/preview of the Whale Wars footage I attended this summer. Watson said that while many of the volunteers aren't vegan when they board, most of them are committed to veganism when they leave, and that he thinks that's an important and worthwhile part of their activity.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
97. Im with Sea Shepherd...period..nt
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
98. And the Kaiko Maru is accused of ramming the Steve Irwin
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 06:03 PM by quakerboy
Whats the point of attacking before you have any evidence either way?


To be completely honest, I kinda doubt they have the guts to ram. If they were going to ram a vessel, why would they have not done so to the supposed heart of the fleet, Nisshin Maru when they found it?
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Who, Sea Shepherd?
Capt Watson not only has the guts to ram, but has done so several times in the past. The Nisshin Maru isn't worth ramming. She's far too big, plus, so long as she's on the run, no whales can be killed. Best just to chase and bomb, chase and bomb.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. I did not know that.
from watching a few episodes of the show, I didn't really get a "we are serious" vibe from the whole thing, more of a "we are young adults out to be activists" feel.

Anyhow, I would think that you could do some serious damage ramming a ship full on, even if they are 4 times your size. You just have to not care about the cost or consequences. And if you take a ship out, they either have to fix it or replace it. Whereas chase and bomb only works for so long as they can track and stay with the ship, only in the section of the ocean they are patrolling as "australian waters" and only so long as it takes to "clean" the ship.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Oh, yes.
The most "famous" ramming was of the whaler Sierra (twice) in the late 70's with their first ship, The Sea Shepherd. Both ships were then scuttled by Sea Shepherd in harbor.

They got really good at sideswiping ships. There's video out there of them taking out illegal driftnetters just by taking out their machinery at the side of the boat.

I highly recommend a view of a short video, "This Is Sea Shepherd" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqDOOX_5J0Y but forward the stream to around 5:30 to see a drift netter get taken out. Somewhere in the middle is footage of (what I believe are) the Icelandic whalers the Hvalur 6 and the Hvalur 7. A watch of that 6 minute video should show that these folks do not f* around.

And that's why they get my money.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #102
109. Oh, for sure.
I don't know if you caught anybody wearing these on the show:

http://shop.seashepherd.org/store/product.aspx?c=ss_a_t... (base)&p=137580(base)

but the list on the back is a reminder that they don't fuck around.

LM, who coincidentally happens to be wearing exactly that today. :D
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-08 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
104. Nm. self-delete
Edited on Sat Dec-27-08 11:46 PM by Artiechoke

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