Double-action power stations: energy and hydrogen

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/News/PressReleases/2009/DoubleActionPowerStation.asp

Double-action power stations: energy and hydrogen

23 April 2009

Gas power plants could be cheaply retrofitted to generate hydrogen as well as power, chemists say in a Royal Society of Chemistry journal.

A catalyst would convert methane into hydrogen gas and combustible coke, allowing the power station to produce hydrogen alongside electricity.

Gadi Rothenberg and colleagues at the University of Amsterdam and at IRCE Lyon report in Green Chemistry that the catalyst could be cheaply installed into existing plants.

This kind of technology could ease a transition to a hydrogen economy, reducing the need for heavy investment in large hydrogen-focused plants.

Generating hydrogen and power together "is a conceptual change," says Rothenberg.

"When you're going to produce hydrogen, you needn't build a huge new power plant to do that. Diverting some of your existing methane feed to produce hydrogen just makes sense."

The group tested many new catalysts based on ceria doped with other metals. One nickel-based form shows excellent catalytic activity and would cost only $10 per kilogram.

References

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Jurriaan Beckers, Green Chem., 2009, DOI: http://xlink.rsc.org/?DOI=b900516a">10.1039/b900516a

Contact and Further Information

---

Jon Edwards
Media Relations Officer
Royal Society of Chemistry, Burlington House, Piccadilly, London, W1J 0BA
Tel: [phone] or [phone]
Email: http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/News/PressReleases/2009/DoubleActionPowerStation.asp#">Jon Edwards

[kristopher]

1. ""When you're going to produce hydrogen"

But we aren't going to produce hydrogen because we aren't going to "transition to a hydrogen economy".

H technology is as dead as a doornail.

[OKIsItJustMe]

2. So you keep saying

I believe you're wrong.

[kristopher]

3. Show me who is spending money

or planning to spend money on actual, large scale deployment of the technology and you will have made your point. Until then, we will have to be content with watching the large scale rollout of PHEVs by all manufacturers that is currently underway.
The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
In relation to battery electric, the numbers don't work for H - so why do you keep acting like they do? What is the point in denying reality?

[OKIsItJustMe]

4. "The proof is in the pudding" they mis-say

"http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pro1.htm">The proof of the pudding is in the eating." (They should say.)

"Show me who is spending money or planning to spend money on actual, large scale deployment of the technology …"

OK:
How about the http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/">Department of Energy?
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/news_chu.html

Secretary Chu Announces $41.9 Million to Spur Growth of Fuel Cell Markets

April 15, 2009

To expand the use of clean and renewable energy sources and reduce America's dependence on foreign oil, Energy Secretary Steven Chu announced $41.9 million in American Recovery and Reinvestment Act funding for fuel cell technology.

These efforts will accelerate the commercialization and deployment of fuel cells and will create jobs in fuel cell manufacturing, installation, maintenance, and support services. The new funding will improve the potential of fuel cells to provide power in stationary, portable, and specialty vehicle applications, while cutting carbon emissions and broadening our nation's clean energy technology portfolio.

"The investments we're making today will help us build a robust fuel cell manufacturing industry in the United States," said Secretary Chu. "Developing and deploying the next generation of fuel cells will not only create jobs—it will help our businesses become more energy efficient and productive. We are laying the foundation for a green energy economy."

The $41.9 million will support immediate deployment of nearly 1,000 fuel cell systems for emergency backup power and material handling applications (e.g., forklifts) that have emerged as key early markets in which fuel cells can compete with conventional power technologies. Additional systems will be used to accelerate the demonstration of stationary fuel cells for combined heat and power in the larger residential and commercial markets.

For a detailed, state-by-state list of awards, http://www.energy.gov/news2009/7262.htm">read the DOE announcement.

[kristopher]

5. You know that isn't in the same league as what is happening in the auto industry.

Why do you insist on playing these silly-assed games?

[OKIsItJustMe]

7. I see, as usual, faced with evidence contrary your cherished beliefs you simply call names

When will I learn?

[kristopher]

11. There was no "name calling"

And you didn't provide "contrary evidence".

"Show me who is spending money or planning to spend money on actual, large scale deployment of the technology and you will have made your point. Until then, we will have to be content with watching the large scale rollout of PHEVs by all manufacturers that is currently underway."

The US government is spending $2.5 billion just to support battery manufacturing, and ALL of the auto manufacturers are gearing up for production of battery electrics. Pointing to $40M in mercy money to H researchers simply isn't a proof. More of your silly-assed games.

[OKIsItJustMe]

18. I see. Thanks, for the explanation (What a relief)

You're "silly-assed" too. I trust you take that as a compliment.

[kristopher]

21. You do have trouble with the language for someone so intent on nit picking...

"You are silly assed" isn't a valid sentence and isn't what was written. "You play silly assed games" OTOH, is a legitimate construction and describes well shit like the post I'm responding to.

[OKIsItJustMe]

23. You asked for pudding

I've given you pudding. There's a lot of money being spent. There's a lot of research being done.

Go ask some grown-up about how to carry on a civil conversation.

[kristopher]

24. I asked you why you persist in propagandizing for H

why the numbers don't work. The "lot of money" and "lot of research" you point to are nothing in comparison to what is happening with battery electrics and you know it. Yet you still persist in trotting out this crap as if the world hasn't passed it by.
To move to a renewable infrastructure based on H would require us to install nearly DOUBLE the amount of solar and wind that battery electric would. Double! So why do you persist in the lie that the technology is still in the mix?

The time for research and hoping for major breakthroughs is past, we are moving to put the infrastructure in place. I have no particular affinity for any technology, if you show me how the efficiency and $$ numbers for H are better than those of battery electrics, I'm right there with you. However, they aren't and you can't. It is that simple. If you could you would have by now instead of playing all the SAGs.

There are certainly some applications where HFC are going to be the best choice, but that isn't going to be the light duty vehicle fleet.

[kristopher]

8. PS

Words and phrases evolve; as has this one:

From Terry Cleary: I have heard BBC reporters say ‘the proof is in the pudding’. Surely the phrase should be ‘the proof of the pudding is in the eating’.

Indeed it should.

However, the version you quote is a form that has been appearing with increasing frequency in books and newspapers, so we ought not to single out the BBC for censure. As another recent instance, the Boston Herald had this in its issue of 3 February 2004: “While the team’s first Super Bowl victory back in 2002 could be explained away by some skeptics as a fluke, the second victory is the proof in the pudding in cementing the Pats’ status as the cream of the NFL crop.“

But examples can be found in American newspapers at least as far back as the 1920s and it became relatively common from the middle 1950s onwards. Slightly different versions also turn up from time to time, such as this about a charity considering its links with Michael Jackson, “Until there’s some proof in the pudding, we will continue to remain neutral” (The Grand Rapids Press, 30 November 2003), and about an election in Canada, “I guess that the proof in the pudding will be on Oct. 2” (Toronto Star, 29 September 2003).

The principal trouble with the proof is in the pudding is that it makes no sense. What has happened is that writers half-remember the proverb as the proof of the pudding, which is also unintelligible unless you know the full form from which the tag was taken, and have modified it in various ways in unsuccessful attempts to turn it into something sensible.

They wouldn’t make this mistake if they knew two important facts. The full proverb is indeed the proof of the pudding is in the eating and proof has the sense of “test” (as it also has, or used to have, in phrases such as proving-ground and printer’s proof). The proverb literally says that you won’t know whether food has been cooked properly until you try it. Or, putting it figuratively, don’t assume that something is in order or believe what you are told, but judge the matter by testing it; it’s much the same philosophy as in seeing is believing and actions speak louder than words.

The proverb is ancient — it has been traced back to 1300 and was popularised by Cervantes in his Don Quixote of 1605. It’s sad that it has lasted so long, only to be corrupted in modern times.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pro1.htm

Just another example of that obsession you have with picking nits.*

*"Nitpicking is the act of removing nits (the eggs of lice, generally head lice) from the host's hair. As the nits are cemented to individual hairs, they cannot be removed with lice combs and, before modern chemical methods were invented, the only options were to shave all the host's hair or to pick them free one by one.

This is a slow and laborious process, as the root of each individual hair must be examined for infestation. It was largely abandoned as modern chemical methods became available; however, as lice populations can and do develop resistance, manual nitpicking is still often necessary.

As nitpicking inherently requires fastidious, meticulous attention to detail, the term has become appropriated to describe the practice of meticulously searching for minor, even trivial errors in detail (often referred to as "nits" as well), and then criticising them."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitpicking

[OKIsItJustMe]

20. GM wants New York to lead in fuel cell cars

http://www.fox28.com/Global/story.asp?S=10204465

GM wants New York to lead in fuel cell cars

Associated Press - April 17, 2009 5:44 PM ET

TONAWANDA, N.Y. (AP) - General Motors envisions a "hydrogen highway" across New York that would allow fuel-cell cars now under development to drive from one end of the state to the other.

GM officials are at the Tonawanda (tah-nuh-WAHN'-duh) engine plant near Buffalo with two hydrogen-powered Chevrolet Equinox vehicles to demonstrate the emerging technology.

The automaker has 100 test vehicles on the road. The cars use no gasoline and produce no harmful emissions.

GM is working with state energy officials to develop hydrogen filling stations across the state, in hopes they'll be in place before widespread production of fuel-cell vehicles begins in the next five or six years.

[kristopher]

22. So will that be before or after they spend all their money rolling out battery EVs?

[OKIsItJustMe]

6. Honda's FCX Clarity named top 'green' car

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/04/21/honda_hydrogen_car.ART_ART_04-21-09_A6_RFDK88T.html?sid=101

Honda's FCX Clarity named top 'green' car

Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:01 AM
By G. Chambers Williams III
SAN ANTONIO EXPRESS-NEWS

Honda's new FCX Clarity, a sedan powered by a hydrogen fuel cell, has been named 2009 World Green Car at the New York International Auto Show.

…

Although not yet available for retail sale or wide distribution, the FCX Clarity has been in production since June, and Honda has delivered five to customers who are leasing them for testing; among them is actress Jamie Lee Curtis.

The FCX Clarity is the second generation of Honda's FCX hydrogen-powered car. Under the hood is an electric motor that runs on power from the hydrogen fuel cell; as with all hydrogen vehicles, the only thing coming out of the tailpipe is water.

Honda says the car's fuel efficiency is three times that of a similarly sized and powered gasoline-fueled vehicle. The FCX Clarity is among several of its type produced by various automakers in testing of the hydrogen fuel-cell concept, which many industry observers think will be the automotive-propulsion system of the future.

…

[kristopher]

12. How many of those have they made? 5?

Yes that's impressive.

[OKIsItJustMe]

14. "Show me who is spending money or planning to spend money"

How much money do you suppose they've spent on R&D so far?

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/drive-fcx-clarity.aspx

The FCX Clarity is officially out on the road. A limited number of these groundbreaking vehicles are currently being leased to select Southern Californians.* Honda plans to deliver about 200 FCX Clarity hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles to customers in the first three years of our fuel cell lease program.

Ron Yerxa and Annette Ballester took delivery of the first hydrogen fuel cell powered FCX Clarity on July 25, 2008 at Honda of Santa Monica. http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/driver-photos.aspx?num=delivery1">View photos.

The first applicants for this initial round have been identified.* If you missed the first qualification process or live outside the designated area, don’t worry. We expect to roll out more fuel cell vehicles as additional hydrogen-refueling options become available. Please sign up for FCX Clarity updates through this site so that we may contact you in the future as additional leasing opportunities arise.

One of the reasons for this limited initial release is that in order to drive a fuel cell vehicle, you have to be able to refuel it. And since these clean cars do not run on gasoline, you can’t just stop at your regular corner gas station to fill up. Hydrogen fuel stations are necessary to refuel a fuel cell vehicle and, as it stands now, these stations are still quite limited in number.

Therefore, only customers currently residing in the Torrance, Santa Monica and Irvine areas who meet additional qualification criteria were eligible to take an FCX Clarity home. Honda wants to ensure that FCX Clarity drivers will be able to take their vehicles in for service at participating dealers and have convenient access to refueling stations.

…

[kristopher]

17. WTF does that mean?

Those cars are a bone they threw to their engineering teams that have been working on the concept for decades. They are not an indication of the direction transportation technology is moving. More silly assed games.

[excess_3]

25. fuel cells are notorious for their poor electrical efficiency

does anybody have specs on the fuel cell
used here?

[OKIsItJustMe]

9. EERC to receive on-demand hydrogen system patent

http://www.charlestonbusiness.com/news/27254-scra-ramps-up-efforts-for-hydrogen-fund?rss=0

EERC to receive on-demand hydrogen system patent

By Hope Deutscher

Web exclusive posted April 22, 2009, at 5:26 p.m. CST

The http://www.undeerc.org/">Energy and Environmental Research Center Foundation in Grand Forks, N.D., has received an allowance for a patent application on a high-pressure hydrogen production process to convert liquid fuels, such as ethanol, methanol and gasoline, to hydrogen.

According to Tom Erickson, associate director of research at the EERC, the basic premise of the system is to utilize and compress a liquid fuel to a very high pressure, then convert that fuel to a hydrogen-rich gas, which is then purified under presser and entered into a dispenser to fuel a vehicle.

Erickson said the unique aspect of the system is that it doesn’t require large-scale storage or compression of the hydrogen gas. “When you pull the vehicle up to refuel it, in essence the analogy is to current fueling pumps, when you squeeze the handle is when the hydrogen would get produced,” Erickson said. “You don’t have to produce it ahead of time and then put it into the tank; it’s actually produced when you need it.”

“The bottom line is that it takes two of the major cost factors out of the whole hydrogen story. One being the pressurization of the hydrogen – you don’t need to do it – and storage. Those are very expensive and those two expenses basically are gone so this changes everything,” said Gerald Groenewold, EERC’s director.

……

[kristopher]

15. And you still have a overall system efficiency that sucks.

Until you get that number above 90% and figure out a way to duplicate the distribution capability of the electric grid without spending all the funds allocated for all aspects of a renewable infrastructure, you have nothing.

[OKIsItJustMe]

10. Nanocluster acts as hydrogen super sponge

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30327816/

Nanocluster acts as hydrogen super sponge

Material could store hydrogen for cars or pull carbon dioxide from air

By Eric Bland
updated 1:15 p.m. ET, Tues., April 21, 2009

A crystal riddled with tiny pores has the highest surface area of any material in the world, according to the University of Michigan chemists who created the material, which is detailed in the latest issue of the Journal of the American Chemical Society.

One-thirtieth of an ounce of the zinc-oxide crystal has enough surface area to cover an entire football field. Scientists say this labyrinthine material could eventually store hydrogen for cars or pull planet-warming carbon dioxide out of the air.

"It's a crystalline material like salt, or sugar," said Adam Matzger, the University of Michigan chemist who created the material. "Looking at it you would never know that it is filled with empty space, that it's full of these holes."

Each pore is tiny, only a nanometer or two in size, just large enough for two hydrogen atoms, bonded to each other, to slip into a pore and bounce around like a rubber ball.

…

[kristopher]

16. Blah, blah blah blah, the numbers are still the same.

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. The Linde Group develops sustainable hydrogen production process

http://www.linde.de/International/Web/Linde/like35lindecom.nsf/0/91F7196358F928B2C12575A0002C5781

The Linde Group develops sustainable hydrogen production processMunich, 22 April 2009 - The technology group The Linde Group is developing an innovative process for the sustainable production of hydrogen from biogenic raw materials. Hydromotive GmbH, a subsidiary of The Linde Group, is to build a demonstration plant from mid-2009 at the chemical site in Leuna, Germany, which will produce hydrogen from glycerine. The feedstock glycerine is a by-product of biodiesel production and further processing of glycerine therefore makes good sense.

"Promising opportunities for the sustainable cost-effective production of hydrogen are presented by the use of biogenic raw materials," said Dr Aldo Belloni, member of the Executive Board of Linde AG. "With this innovative patented process, we have taken yet another step towards low-emission energy supply using hydrogen."

The plant, which will reprocess, pyrolyse and reform raw glycerine and will come on stream in mid-2010, will produce a hydrogen-rich gas, which will be fed into the existing Leuna II hydrogen plant for the purification and liquefaction of the hydrogen. The "green" liquefied hydrogen produced there will initially be used in German centres such as Berlin and Hamburg where hydrogen is being employed as a fuel.

As a result of its high hydrogen content, raw glycerine, which arises in the course of biodiesel manufacture, is particularly suited for the production of hydrogen. The potential benefit of biomass (per hectare) is exploited to an even greater extent by the conversion of glycerine into hydrogen for the production of fuel. Biogenically produced glycerine will not be in competition with food production and is available all year round.

As the world's largest manufacturer of hydrogen plants, Linde has access to the full range of technology required for the use of hydrogen as an energy carrier - from production to filling. Linde is a leader in the fitting out of hydrogen filling stations and its filling technology is available in more than in 15 countries. When hydrogen is used as a fuel, no harmful emissions at all are produced.

The Linde Group is a world leading gases and engineering company with almost 52,000 employees working in around 100 countries worldwide. In the 2008 financial year, it achieved sales of 12.7 billion euro. The strategy of The Linde Group is geared towards sustainable earnings-based growth and focuses on the expansion of its international business with forward-looking products and services. Linde acts responsibly towards its shareholders, business partners, employees, society and the environment - in every one of its business areas, regions and locations across the globe. Linde is committed to technologies and products that unite the goals of customer value and sustainable development.

For more information, please see The Linde Group online at http://www.linde.com


Further information:
Press
Uwe Wolfinger
Telephone: [phone]

Investor Relations
Thomas Eisenlohr
Telephone: [phone]

[kristopher]

19. OK I'm convinced.

You can cut and paste bullshit company press releases that have no value to the discussion whatsoever. More silly assed games.

[amandabeech]

26. There is nothing here or in your other cites relating to any improvements

in the EROEI or net energy of hydrogen production.

Unless and until the EROEI of hydrogen can improve, I really don't see hydrogen moving out of niche applications.

The Linde process is really nothing new. Pyrolysis has been around for a long time, it's just adapting to glycerine that is new. Excess glycerine results from biodiesel production which outside of recycling of wastes competes directly with food production in the substitution of oil-seed grains for totally edible grains and in using virgin cooking oil from various plant sources when such oil has been increasing in expense to developing country populations in some recent years.