Why are we not doing more on this front? Geo-thermal

[madokie]

http://www.geo-energy.org/aboutGE/basics.asp

Geothermal energy is defined as heat from the Earth. It is a clean, renewable resource that provides energy in the U.S. and around the world in a variety of applications and resources. Although areas with telltale signs like hot springs are more obvious and are often the first places geothermal resources are used, the heat of the earth is available everywhere, and we are learning to use it in a broader diversity of circumstances. It is considered a renewable resource because the heat emanating from the interior of the Earth is essentially limitless. The heat continuously flowing from the Earth’s interior, which travels primarily by conduction, is estimated to be equivalent to 42 million megawatts (MW) of power, and is expected to remain so for billions of years to come, ensuring an inexhaustible supply of energy. (1) (cut)



I know about the limits on how deep we can drill, work on extending that. I know about the locations, deal with that by building a new grid for the distrubution of the power. Seriously why are we not going after this like a camel after water upon crossing the desert? It's not like the power companies would lose any money in fact I would bet that a lot of the cost of research could be passed on to us the consummer as well as the cost for the upgrades to the grid as well as building the plants too.

There has to be a down side but I can't seem to find it. Oh I know that its out there and we need the power over here but we can do that if we set out to do that very thing. We went to the moon in a ten year span pretty much, look at the manhattan project, what we can do when we set out to do something.

[phantom power]

1. My best guess is thermal gradient.

The existing geothermal plants are designed for really high thermal gradients, the kind you find only near hot spots close to the surface. Theoretically I like the idea of drilling down a few kilometers, which you could do pretty much everywhere, but it's like the difference between several thousand meters and a couple hundred meters in terms of thermal gradient. Whatever that does to the thermodynamics and economics, it can't be good.

[madokie]

2. I say the heck with present day anything except the knowledge that the energy is there

and go at it from there. We can do it best I can figure. We just need the will to do it and that is what I think we need to work on. The energy is there right under me, so its a few thousands of feet or maybe measured in miles, to get to it, lets get to drilling.

[phantom power]

3. Well... the numbers will matter. A lot.

I do not know what the numbers are. But suppose you drill down 5 kilometers in Kansas, and because of the low thermal gradient you can only extract one megawatt. That means to equal the output of a single gigawatt generating plant, you would need to drill one thousand 5 kilometer holes. That's just to displace one typical baseload plant.

It's a lot of holes. A lot of cost, a lot of environmental impact.

A megawatt may be optimistic at that depth. Suppose it's a kilowatt. Now it's firmly into the realm of being not worth it.

It's possible for energy to "be there" and not be worth extracting.

[madokie]

5. I don't think in this case it is

just saying it is doesn't make it so. The energy we need is right under our feet and you are going to tell me you don't know how exactly but its not there, not worth going to. I don't buy it. Further more I won't buy it

hopefully we can have a discussion of something other than Nukular, wind or solar but we'll see.

[phantom power]

8. It might work. I just don't know.

Thermal gradient in the crust averages 20C/kilometer. If you want to extract geothermal in a generic location, you have to drill down about 5 kilometers just to boil water. And that's barely, at 100C. To really make it work well you want to get substantially above 100C.

[madokie]

10. Thats what I wanted to see

It might work, I just don't know. We have hot spots all throughout the country where with present day technology it would be feasible even here in Oklahoma so why aren't we going after it. Who controls the dialoge in this?

[pscot]

21. You don't need to dig down 5 kliks

to install a ground source heat pump. Eight to ten feet is probably enough.It does add a lot to the cost, and you need a big back yard, but it's geothermal.

[phantom power]

22. That's a different usage of the term "geothermal."

You are talking about using the ground as a heat reservoir for improved heat-pump efficiency. That is different than geothermal in the original sense of extracting energy from the earth.

I don't know who started using "geothermal" for heat reservoirs, but I sort of wish they hadn't. Now it's causing a lot of confusion.

[kristopher]

26. The usage has been around forever.

Perhaps it is just something you missed and need to get used to.

[Dead_Parrot]

29. Tecnically, it's correct. Sort of...

Ground-coupled heat pumps are geothermal in the proper sense of the word, but until recently they were invariably referred to as "geothermal heat pumps" (or "geoexchange systems") to avoid confusion with geothermal energy generation. The last few years people have started to use just "geothermal" (and worse, "geothermal energy") to refer to GHP, but although it does seem to coincide with heat-pump manufactures suddenly sticking the work "geothermal" prominently into all their literature, I don't think you can point the finger at anyone in particular - it's just the usual human laziness.

Since GHPs spend half the time pumping heat from the environment into you house, and the other half pumping it from your house into the environment, 'ecothermal' would be more appropriate (eco- can be used for both), but I suspect I'm a bit late with that idea. Oh well.

[kristopher]

38. language is a funny (and usually predictable) thing

I'd wager that by wide margins most people who have had occasion to use the term "geothermal" have been people selling, using, or considering using such a system for their home. Another group of people are energy wonks concerned with and discussing methods of generating, storing, moving, conserving and improving efficiency in the way energy is used.

Some might evaluate the most common usage as being correct because, well, it is used by the most people. Others would say that their technical lexicon is the "correct" usage and deviations are a corruption.

They are both correct, as there is simply no way to deny the validity of either position. Laziness has little to with it and the term isn't "suddenly" appearing in their literature - it has been there for 40 years.

[lordsummerisle]

4. So how much research $

is going into determining the best sites?

[madokie]

6. Apparently not enough

on one of the maps I was looking at it showed we have a pretty good potential spot here in oklahoma even. Why is this option not talked about here or anywhere any more than it is? I wonder...

[MineralMan]

7. Basically, because it will take a new industry to do it,

and the profit margins aren't there. The few geothermal plants in existence use a very high temperature gradient, so they can use traditional steam technology for the actual generation.

In most places, that gradient doesn't exist, and technology to use lower temperature gradients isn't readily available in sizes large enough.

The profit isn't there, so nobody's going to make the technology available to those wanting to exploit the available energy.

Even in the geological hotspots, there are problems with corrosive solutions and other difficult problems.

[madokie]

9. No problems that can't be addressed

looks to me like. As I was saying to begin with, forget all the reasons we know why we aren't and develop ways to get there from here where I'm sure we can do if we set out to do it. The profits would be there, no problem with that one that I can see. The closed loop system and the alloys we have at our disposal takes care of the corrosive problem.

[MineralMan]

11. If that's the case, then I think you should start organizing

a corporation to develop and produce the technology needed. You'll get filthy rich, right?

The thing is exactly as I described it. The technology doesn't currently exist for anything but the hot spots, where they can superheat water and use conventional generating equipment. That such places are not being developed fully is an indication that profitability is marginal.

The technology for using lower temperature gradients involves using refrigerant cycles that can work within the gradient. The technology for power generation using those gradients is far from being commercially available, although it can be demonstrated experimentally.

If you're sure you can do this, then start raising capital and get in on the ground floor. It's easy to say it should be done. Doing it is another matter.

[madokie]

14. on the one hand you're saying it can't be done then on the other you're saying it can

What I'm saying is why can't we set out to do this and then develop the means to do it. We have the energy there and we're pretty smart, others, and can be doggedly determined when we want to so why aren't we

[MineralMan]

16. Who is this "we?"

Yes, it can be done. About 20 years ago, I designed a freon-based household system that would generate 20 kilowatts on a continuous basis. It used readily-available components. I didn't actually build it, though, because it would have taken about 20 years for it to break even, compared to the costs of buying power from the current supplier.

As I said, if you think that geothermal is a viable thing, then you should start a company, sell stock to get capital, and do it. That's the only way it's going to happen...someone is going to have to have a vision and get it done.

Problem is that, like my household power system, your geothermal plan isn't economically feasible at this point in time. If it were, I promise you that there would be people jumping on the bandwagon.

You're talking idealistically, and that's not a bad thing. Yet, if you were serious, you'd be out there making feasibility studies and profitability studies and planning your company.

It's more of the "let's you and him" do something stuff. You want "us" to do it. How about if "you" do it? That's how it gets done.

[phantom power]

17. What thermal gradient did your design assume?

[MineralMan]

19. At the time, I lived in California.

Using tracking solar collectors for evaporators and in ground condensers , I could manage a gradient of about 150 degrees in daylight hours. Much less at night. Battery storage dealt with periods where there was not enough difference.

The cost, as you might imagine, was way too high to be practical, although it should have worked just fine.

[phantom power]

23. Interesting. So your system was actually solar energy...

you were using the earth as a heat sink, not an energy source.

[MineralMan]

24. Right.

[madokie]

18. I know what my limitations are and so I am who I am

I have not the capacity to do any of that and I'll be the first to say but how is what you're saying helping us, me, to understand all this. You start off saying it can't be done because of this and or that when in reality we do have the ability to do it, it just needs to be done. A fire only needs to be lit after that its feeding itself, maybe that's what I wanted to do with this OP. Telling me I should start a company and using that as the argument is not a good argument for where this could go. It sounds more like you want me to shut up.

[MineralMan]

20. No, I'm telling you to go research it on Google,

not just do "pie in the sky" speculation. A search for geothermal research will find you more than enough actual information to understand why it is not being done.

Am I being sarcastic in my replies? Yes, I am, because the information you're asking about is already out there for the reading.

Do you suppose that if this was economically feasible, based on current information, there would not already be the companies I suggested you start?

[oldhippie]

31. I would then suggest that .......

.... those with the capacity and ability to do this have studied the situation and determined that it is not ECONOMICALLY viable to do such projects. Just because something (that you like) CAN be done doesn't mean it WILL be done, especially if you are trying to get someone else to pay for it.

I COULD live in a nice, new, energy efficient green building with the latest high efficiency appliances, solar water heater, PV panels supplying electricity, etc. The technology is there, it can be done, but I don't have the capability of building or buying such. Will you build one for me? Why not? I'd be very grateful.

[madokie]

34. go read post 27 then come back and be a smart ass some more

[oldhippie]

35. OK, I read post 27 .......

.... and the key phrase in sentence one is "...PROBABLY at competitive prices ...".

Those guys that did the study PROBABLY aren't investors. Investors usually want a little more reassurance than PROBABLY.

Seriously, do you still not understand why geothermal energy isn't being exploited more? It's because the people with the capacity to do it don't see a return. Usually, only governments are willing to "invest" in projects without a quantifiable return, and to do that requires the will of the people. I hate to break the news to you, but the "will" ain't there yet. Maybe if you and others of your persuation convince more people it could happen, but it's obviously not yet.

[oldhippie]

28. So ........

"What I'm saying is why can't we set out to do this and then develop the means to do it. We have the energy there and we're pretty smart, others, and can be doggedly determined when we want to so why aren't we?"

So, do it. What's stopping you? Stop talking and start doing.

Oh, wait ...... There's that pesky money thing. Let's just ban economics and do what feels good.

[madokie]

30. and

thats all you have to offer?:shrug:

[oldhippie]

32. I offer reality ........

.... how about you? Dreams are good, but they remain that, dreams, until there is a reason for them to be implemented. That reason usually means a benefit to those who build the dream to reality. Just wishing, no matter how noble the cause, doesn't get it done in the real world.

[The2ndWheel]

12. "There has to be a down side but I can't seem to find it."

"It is considered a renewable resource because the heat emanating from the interior of the Earth is essentially limitless."

The downside would be that it could be an essentially limitless renewable resource. Our impact on the planet isn't the result of which resource we use, it is the result of what we do with the resource that we use.

Like you said, there has to be a limit to it in some way. We'll still exist in physical reality. There has to be a price to pay for using it. For example, the price for oil and coal is pollution. We have to give to get. What is the price for a limitless source of renewable energy?

[GliderGuider]

25. You mean like Polywell fusion reactors?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=155283&mesg_id=156262

Imagine a planet with 10 billion prosperous, healthy people, all of whom want to eat well. Now imagine a fleet of 10,000 fishing vessels -- each one the size of the Queen Mary, each powered by a small on-board fusion reactor like the Polywell, capable of going anywhere on the planet and staying at sea until their holds are full.

The idea of humanity developing successful fusion reactors is the stuff not of economic dreams, but of ecological nightmares.

While geothermal energy wouldn't be as flexible as a Polywell, the final outcome would be much the same. Without a transformation of the current cultural narrative of separation, dominion, domination and exploitation, adding unlimited free energy to the human experiment would be like trying to extinguish a house fire with gasoline.

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. Actually, there's a fair amount of research being done in this field

http://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/

[madokie]

15. Thanks

I just don't buy the argument that we can't because we don't already do it. This link will go a long ways in helping me to understand it all. :hi:

[bananas]

27. also see the 2007 MIT report "The Future of Geothermal Energy"

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/geothermal.html

MIT-led panel backs 'heat mining' as key U.S. energy source

January 22, 2007

A comprehensive new MIT-led study of the potential for geothermal energy within the United States has found that mining the huge amounts of heat that reside as stored thermal energy in the Earth's hard rock crust could supply a substantial portion of the electricity the United States will need in the future, probably at competitive prices and with minimal environmental impact.

An 18-member panel led by MIT prepared the 400-plus page study, titled "The Future of Geothermal Energy" (PDF, 14.1 MB). Sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy, it is the first study in some 30 years to take a new look at geothermal, an energy resource that has been largely ignored.

The goal of the study was to assess the feasibility, potential environmental impacts and economic viability of using enhanced geothermal system (EGS) technology to greatly increase the fraction of the U.S. geothermal resource that could be recovered commercially.

Although geothermal energy is produced commercially today and the United States is the world's biggest producer, existing U.S. plants have focused on the high-grade geothermal systems primarily located in isolated regions of the west. This new study takes a more ambitious look at this resource and evaluates its potential for much larger-scale deployment.

<snip>

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[izquierdista]

36. Nevada Power is

According to DOE maps of geothermal potential, Nevada has the best prospects for development of this source of energy. Here is a link on what they are doing: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/mar/27/energy-promise-kept/

[madokie]

37. From what I've read so far it's only a will to do it that we need to find

For the most part most of the big questions have been addressed with favorable results. In some cases the upgrading of the grid to service geo-thermal base load power plants could be done along existing power line right of ways.

[kristopher]

39. You will see it developed.

There are limited funds and they have to be directed where the yield the most bang for the buck. Right now, that is wind. AS carbon taxes ramp up and the cost of carbon becomes more of a factor in pricing, other technologies with start attracting funding in line with the relative cost and type of electricity they provide.

One movie I loved as a young child was Disney's "The Jungle Book"; you remind me of the vultures asking each other what they are going to do now - or more accurately the take-off poster where one of them announces "Fuck it, I'm going to kill something!"

One thing you can count on, geothermal isn't going to get left behind.

[One_Life_To_Give]

40. Most of it is Low Quality energy

There are a few places where the energy has higher quality (Temps above 100C). But what is available across much of the globe is the low quality 50F (10C) variety. It can be harnessed but the costs associated with collecting and concentrating it drive people to conventional sources instead.

Concider the Ground Source Heat Pump. Itself not much more or even less than some conventional options to install. However the ground source collecting pipes require a conciderable expense to install below the frost line over a sufficient area.

[madokie]

41. In other words

you know very little about this subject too, huh.