Dumb Question: Why Is a Hybrid Better Then A Pure Electric?

[Coastie for Truth]

First: I have a Prius.

Second: I worked on the GM EV project for a vendor.

Dumb and Silly Question: Why Is a Hybrid Better Then A Pure Electric?

The only answer I can think of - with a hybrid you are not "tethered" to an electric outlet by an electric cable - but by dragging around an IC engine, and a generator, and gasoline - you can "go anywhere."

A kind of bass ackwards, asymmetric reason.

And I haven't reached the level of cynicism to blame it on advertising that characterizes EV's as golf carts for the Viagra set.

I know - "where are you going to charge it up?" To which I respond - you can plug in at home at night and at work during the day.

I know - "where will the electricity come from?" To which I respond - same place we will get the electricity "in ten years" for our H2 powered fuel cell cars. (I know, flip answer).

I still have this vision--
--- People buy electrics (Mini-cooper and Scion size or smaller) for everyday use.
--- People rent big luxury hybrids for long distance trips.

I can not see the fallacy.

[Vincardog]

1. simple answer = RANGE

[physioex]

4. And getting more technical.....

Pound per pound Gasoline has the highest amount of energy. Think about how heavy lead acid batteries are and how much energy they store, now think about an equivalent weight of gasoline.........

[Coastie for Truth]

6. The EV2 and the Prius are NiMH

and the next generation of hybrids are Li-Ion. That's what EV's would be.

I took freshman chem, and analytical chem, and organic chem, and under grad p chem and grad p chem and industrial toxicology - I know the risks of Li. But the present generation of Li batteries use Li immobilized as a stable reaction product with a reactive polymer (Nafion?).

[Coastie for Truth]

5. Yes...but

My wife drives an elderly (1988) Corolla -

under 70K miles,

70K miles/17 years -- less then 5K miles/year

In the 17 years she has had it - I don't think she has ever put more then 60 miles in one day.

I think the EV niche is bigger market then Detroit does. We may have to get used to many niche markets instead of a "one size fits all market" -- that has driven Ford and GM into "junk bond" status.

[cprise]

10. I wanted to buy an EV in 2001

But I did not live in CA or the Atlanta area, so the only option was the new Insight. I got a Volkswagen TDI instead and use biodiesel in it... this turned out better in a way because the fuel is a carrier of solar energy and is renewable.

Hybrids are nice, but lets not kids ourselves... they are a marketing compromise for people who demand range and quick refueling, even if they rarely need those features. For practical everyday use EVs are better. The great thing is that people are already altering their Priuses to run more exclusively on electricity, which I see it as an evolutionary process.

[Vincardog]

14. I bet you do not live in rural Texas. It is 10 miles to the nearest gas

station where I live. I drive 55 miles each way to work every working day. The miles add up quickly in big sky country.

[rfkrfk]

11. pure electric, Cost is the only issue

Purchase cost, and 'battery wear-out cost', are the issues.
Nowadays, we could have a pure electric car that
gets at least 100 miles per charge.
For long distance driving, you could always add
a 20 HP gasoline poewered motor-generator, for range.

[patricia92243]

2. Love my Prius. 63 mpg highest so far!!

[Ready4Change]

3. Range, compatibility with existing infrastructure.

[smoogatz]

7. Because a pure electric still burns fossil fuels

that electricity has to come from somewhere. In this country, most likely it comes from a coal or gas fired power plant. A hybrid actually creates some of its own energy--though I suppose an all-electric car could do the same thing.

[rfkrfk]

12. gasoline is fossil fuel,

Hybrids get their energy at the gas station,
nothing magical here,
current hybrids are nothing more that a small
amount of electric engine assist.

[Massacure]

28. But the motors don't have to run when the car is idle.

So you save a lot of energy if your in places like California's rush hour traffic.

[Massacure]

8. What happens if you get in an accident with 1000 lbs of batteries?

I wouldn't want to be the poor sucker that gets burned by that. Plus batteries are expensive, have relatively low power densities, take a while to charge, and get their power from fossil fuels anyways.

[Coastie for Truth]

9. Thanks all

for taking the time to respond and participate.

I like them both - in their places (niches) - and hybrids have a "bigger niche."

[One_Life_To_Give]

13. Hybrid will work in both niches

If I only had enough resources to develop one vehical. The Hybrid will work in it's niche and the EV niche. But in the near term the reverse is not true.

[Coastie for Truth]

16. Look what will come next

we haven't seen anything yet.

Remember the Zilog Z-80 emission control in the 1970's, and where battery technology -- and fuel cell technology - were in the 1970's.

Most of my work has been on batteries for EVs and hybrids - but I am amazed at where hybrids and ev's and laptop computers and cell phones and digital cameras and pacemakers have pushed batteries --- and where gamers and the web have pushed processors --- and where the synergy of new battery technology (pushed by the demands of hybrids and evs) and processor technology have pushed the next generation of personal transportation.

I am in my 60's -- and I know humanity will survive -- and that we will adapt to "Peak Oil" with newer and better and even more exciting stuff. (What I regret is that I probbaly won't be around for the fun part of engineering and inventing and putterin around in the shop and lab)

[Kolesar]

15. The weight of all those batteries are a liability in EVs

The weight means a lot of Work to transport those batteries. The suspension has to be quite strong, too.

If I were buying an EV, I would select one with less batteries and lower weight and ask my employer to put in a charging station. Ultimately, I think this is the best a lot of people can hope for. Folks ought to be delighted to be able to drive 30 miles point-to-point then charge up again, especially if the choice is not being able to get to work.

By my accounting, vacation driving will become a thing of the past. Another part of the American dream bites the dust.

[dcfirefighter]

17. Coastie hit it on the head

Currently the US has more cars than drivers. Can't reference it, but if it's not true, it's close, and I'll eat my hat.

The popularity of SUV's is due to the 'one car does it all' theory. I drive a (small) SUV, I'm single, and I participate in outdoor activities that benefit from driving on dirt roads in all weather. It's big enough for me to move things around, and small enough to park in the city. It gets almost 30 mpg on the highway.

BUT... if families have multiple cars, it would make economic sense (if externalities were collected) for one car to be the high mpg type, and one car to be the high payload type. Alternatively, the daily driver could be an owned high mpg (or EV) and the occasional driver could be a rental. I'm thinking FlexCar, SmartCar, etc, not so much hertz and avis.

Another change we'll have to make, is to increase average density in urbs & suburbs, while allowing for mixed use zoning. This allows more useful destinations to be within walking / biking / transit / EV range. I think the most effective means of accomplishing this would be twofold: appropriate zoning laws, and increased taxes on land values (with decreased taxes on buildings & labor).

[Strelnikov_]

18. Mitsubishi Colt EV

The company is developing a compact electric vehicle called the Colt EV, which draws on a lithium-ion battery pack to power four 20-kilowatt, in-wheel electric motors.

http://media.mitsubishi-motors.com/pressrelease/e/corporate/detail1269.html

[Kolesar]

19. The high unsprung weight of the motors will diminish handling...

...characteristics. It will "feel the bumps more". However, I like the idea a lot. That sounds fine for an economy commuter vehicle. All-wheel drive, though? I think AWD is a luxury with limited application.

[Coastie for Truth]

21. AWD

All-wheel drive, though? I think AWD is a luxury with limited application.

AWD offers some "vehicle dynamics" advantages.

I spent too many years of my life in the Great Lakes snow belt. (Michigan, "Upstate NY"). AWD isn't a luxury.

The high unsprung weight of the motors will diminish handling ..characteristics. It will "feel the bumps more"

A VW EV prototype - and also a VW "full time electric hybrid" both pull the electric motors in closer to where a differential would normally be - inboard of the suspension.

"full time electric hybrid"

This is where the gasoline or diesel always runs at its "sweet spot" (best mileage, cleanest tail pipe emissions, etc) to charge the battery; and the actual traction is always provided by the electric motors. When the battery is fully charged the gas engine shuts off - only comes on to charge the battery.

[Kolesar]

23. All you need is snow tires--real snow tires

I have lived in the NE Ohio snowbelt for 19 years. I suppose if you lived in the Sierra Nevada mountains, you would need four wheels of traction to get you up a hill with a lot of fresh snow on it. Such is not the case here. AWD and 4WD is way oversold as a panacea for foul weather driving. The idea of building a fuel efficient commuter car and then putting AWD on it is absurd. You have to pay for all that weight in increased fuel consumption.

[Coastie for Truth]

24. Generally true

But with an hub mounted motors - either in an EV - or with a VW hybrid concept car configuration - you have gotten rid of the transmission, the transfer case, and differentials. According to VW the third and fourth electric motors (remember, no transmission, no transfer case, no differentials) still result in a net loss of weight.

My mom's family is from "The Heights" east of Cleveland, my wife's room mate from grad school lives in Cleveland Heights, etc... Lived in MI and in the NY Lake Ontario snow belt of NY (dumb, dumb, dumb - that's why we live in CA now). I will admit AWD can be a needless luxury -- only really made a difference about once every three - four years. ABS was much more important - and for some reason ABS is easier to design into a car with four hub mounted electric motors.

[IrateCitizen]

20. I actually have a different vision...

I still have this vision--
--- People buy electrics (Mini-cooper and Scion size or smaller) for everyday use.
--- People rent big luxury hybrids for long distance trips.

My vision is actually quite different. I would like to see re-designed communities and growth models that incorporate mixed-use zoning, walkable and bikeable layouts, and mass transit. That way, people wouldn't NEED automobiles for most of their "everyday use", nor even for many travel opportunities. For the times that they DO need a car, there could be carsharing groups for different communities (rather than every single family having 2 cars), and rather inexpensive rentals when they travel.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. They're trying that in the SF Bay Area

with "fraction of a day" auto rentals at some transit stations. Some neighborhoods in SF, Oakland, Berkeley, etc. have "car sharing" arrangements or "clubs."

We started the "buy and use an econo car most of the time - rent a big car for the 5% of the time when you really need it" paradigm 22 years ago. Works for us.

[DinahMoeHum]

25. There's also an organization called Zipcar in some cities.

www.zipcar.com


:think:

[Coastie for Truth]

26. Neat

I've seen our California version at the Fremont BART Station and in San Francisco a block east of Ghiradelli Square, and seen stories in the SF Chronicle (www.sfgate.com) about other Bay Area locations.

[dcfirefighter]

27. Redevelopment

The problem with redevelopment is that we have a huge sunk cost in existing building stock, much of which would have to be scrapped.

I see the best way to encourage good development is to shift existing tax revenues from labor, wages, and buildings, and place it on land value. It has the effect of making buildings cheaper, and urban land more expensive. Coupled with strong zoning laws, agricultural land would remain cheap (if it can't be developed, it's not worth much). Interestingly, if the increase in land value due to transit installation is included, installing transit becomes wildly profitable. Those free marketers who seem to think the free choice of vastly subsidized automotive use is the right one, choose to ignore the increase in property values caused by transit.

Ideally, I'd like to see cities looking like this: http://www.carfree.com/topology.html fairly dense, ~4 storey development within walking distance of rail transit, surrounded by parks, forests, and farms. At this density, 300,000,000 americans could fit on 0.1% of the US land area.

In the interim, we can make better use of our lawns and low density neighborhoods by gardening, infill, consolidated parking areas, car-free streets, shared vehicles, and mixed use. I think mixed use is very important, when I look at all the new cookie cutter developments being built around DC, where driving is required to even get to a convenience store, I cringe.

I think that something like http://www.skywebexpress.com/ might be feasible for providing mass rapid transit in relatively low density suburbs.

Another option, using our existing highway stock, would be to commandeer the fast shoulder as a rail right of way.

I look forward to the day they bulldoze some far suburb and plant a forest, because just about everyone has moved back to the cities.

[Coastie for Truth]

29. Very Good Overview of Hybrids in this month's Scientific American

(June 2005, pp. 102-103) - Working Knowledge, Hybrid Vehicles:Lean and Mean

Interesting statistic in a text box on page 103

Well to Wheel:
The overall fuel efficiency and environmental impact of any transportation include extracting or producing the fuel, getting it to the vehicle, and consuming it on board. Calculations of this so-called well to wheel efficiency by various experts put hybrids at the top of automotive types. Representative numbers from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers tell the tale:

Gasoline...................19 percent
All-electric................21 percent
Hydrogen fuel cell......27 percent
Gas-electric hybrid.....31 percent

Also, the figures are a very good "compare and contrast" the Toyota and Honda design paradigms.

And, Scientific American reports that the 2006 Lexus RX400h hybrid and the Honda Accord hybrid are faster accelerating then their straight gasoline counterparts.

[phantom power]

30. They must make an assumption regarding where the H2 comes from.

Also, there are existing gasoline and electricity distribution infrastructures to use for figures, but there is no comparable H2 distribution infrastructure in existence. I wonder how they got the numbers for that?

[dcfirefighter]

31. which is why I'm a fan of biodiesel

though it's currently pretty much a subsidy for soy growers.

However, there is research that indicates that algae grown in open aerated ponds can be processed into enough biodiesel for the country's transportation needs on a fraction (~5%) of the land currently used for livestock grazing.

Independent energy, with a closed carbon loop. I like it. Also we get to use our existing distribution network, and generally the same cars as we have now.

Oh, and biodiesel spills are biodegradeable.

[Coastie for Truth]

33. The "Big Three" are looking at bio-diesel hybrids.

Cadillac had a diesel hybrid (the "Precept") and the prototype diesel-hybrid Hummer is rumored to be capable of running on biodiesel.

[dcfirefighter]

34. I don't think it takes much

for a diesel to run on biodiesel, it's mostly in the type of rubber and seals in the engine (biodiesel attacks some rubber). It otherwise burns the same. Most diesels will run on clean straight vegetable oil if they're already running.

But, if they offer it for public consumption, I'm buying one of these: http://motorcyclecity.com/Military-bikes/M1030Diesel-Kawasaki.htm
140 mpg.

[Kolesar]

35. I would like to know more about algae biofuels

It sounds like the best idea I have heard but I cannot find any reading material on it. (any links?)

[Coastie for Truth]

36. I got these by Googling "Algae + Biofuels"

Total of over 8000 hits - most of which are puff or blogs or Letters to the Editor type stuff; I would estimate on the order of 80-120 original papers or article with real techie content. I found the ones below in the first 500-600:

1.

1a.


2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

Most of what I found links back to

New topic: If you want to get really ill, :puke:
check out this append containing an excerpt from and a link to: - It looks like "Big Oil" and the "Junk Bond Big Three" may saddle us with an environmental and greenhouse gas disaster to protect our right to drive Hummers to ever more remote, transit unfriendly, pedestrian unfriendly, suburbs.

:puke:

[Coastie for Truth]

32. My "SWAG" (Smiling Wild Arse Guess)

is that it is either some kind of a intra-refinery internal transfer figure or electrlysis of water (but what transportation and storage costs do they use? "optimism" from DOE)