Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

On “Climate Change” v. “Global Warming”, chaos theory, etc.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:29 PM
Original message
On “Climate Change” v. “Global Warming”, chaos theory, etc.
On “Climate Change” v. “Global Warming”, chaos theory, “garbage in, garbage out” and why, despite all, there is hope


A few years ago it was hot and dry in these parts. Worse, the climate change projections based on computer modeling indicated hotter and drier was yet to come, basically predicting that the whole area would turn into a desert, likely an extreme desert like the Sahara. One knowledgeable person flatly stated that Lake Oahe would never be full again.

I understood enough about the ramifications of green house gasses, and about observed climate change, and the computer model predictions for the area that I certainly could not—and really still cannot—make a coherent and persuasive contrary argument, even to myself. But I thought I knew enough about chaos theory and computer modeling that I could find, if not a cogent argument, at least a dim ray of hope because with increased energy available (largely heat) I expected that unforeseen patterns would develop. Therefore there was a chance—global climate change and general global warming notwithstanding, that the area might not become the desert that the computer models predicted. (“Garbage in, garbage out”—if the programmers were missing key inputs, and for a more chaotic world this was certainly possible, then maybe, just maybe this area might remain populated notwithstanding global climate change and the best computer modeling.

Today, some 3 ½ to 4 years later, who knows? I don’t. I am not a “global warming denier” although “climate change” is clearly a better usage both rhetorically and descriptively. I don’t even know what changes have come about in the computer models. I do know that this area has been through near record hot and dry, and then through cold and wet, and then through hot and wet, and then through record cold and wet with some winter storms doing unheard of damage in this area, and then through record hot and wet, and Lake Oahe, and all of the Missouri River Reservoirs have been full and are full.

This area, or parts thereof that were spared hail and tornadoes and grasshoppers, had record crops last year, and record crops are projects in some places for this year despite record hail, and some tornadoes, and some grasshoppers, and more heat than anyone wants or can remember.

So what does all this mean? Again, who knows? It does not make me a “global warming denier” if I suggest that possibly, in some particulars the computer models might be wrong, but I am not so naïve as to suggest that the last 2 ½ years prove the computer models wrong insofar as they predict desertification for this area—but they certainly do not prove the computer models to be right. Indeed, I find my dim ray of hope gleaming a good bit brighter.

This does not mean that the world as a whole is not in a world of hurt because it is. It will do Bangladesh little good if, as is inhabitants are forced to flee or swim, crop production on the high plains in the United States and Canada holds level or even increases. For that matter it won’t do much for polar bears or any of a number of threatened and endangered species. For that matter it will also present new problems to the high plains which is already facing new diseases such as West Nile Virus and Lyme’s disease which were until recently unknown in this area but are which now definite problems.

I remains impossible to say very much with certainty in part because of the complexity of the issues, and in part because much of what is happening is still up in the air, “the wheel’s still in spin” as it were. It could for instance happen that despite and because of the best and worst efforts cumulative efforts of our species that the “answer” to “global warming” if not climate change may turn out to be nuclear winter.

But I hope not, and despite chaos, and uncertainty, and new or newly magnified problems including uncertainty itself, I have hope—in some particulars more hope than I had 3 ½ to 4 years ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. so...is all 'climate change' merely local?
i have a relative who revels in announcing '10 inches of global warming' whenever he gets snow...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Even simple "global warming" models predict more snow in the winter
Because more moisture gets sucked into the air during the summer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Generally yes, but the ones I've seen do not
include more snow for the high plains.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I didn't say that at all.
Indeed, I pretty clearly stated that I agree that that is climate change including general global warming.

Did you read my post before you responded?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. i was trying to find the seed of your hope...that is all...
pointing out possibly, or currently, errant computer models, etc...i still did not see the basis for the hope...

not that i don't hold out hope, also...but i'm not seeing it...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. only in that
for the last three years, this area, the high plains has been getter wetter (and on average hotter despite periods of record or near record cold) whereas the computer models that I have seen predict desertification for this area.

Therefore, although I consider global warming to be an established fact, I consider "global climate change" to be a better description, and a better rhetorical usage as against those who deny either global warming or climate change, and

I am hoping that climate change notwithstanding, this area will continue to get enough moisture to continue to be an agriculturally productive area rather than turning into an extreme desert.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
billlll Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. cool summers!
Orbiting shades r a serious idea fm 2 scientists. Cheaper than effects of global roasting.
http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x25524
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yes, I read of that, I've also read
of the possibility (partially confirmed by experiment) of increasing the photosynthesis of the oceans by adding trace elements, particularly iron in biologically available compounds to areas of the oceans where the available sunlight would support far more photosynthesis were sufficient trace nutrients available. This scenario, although it could be expected to have other unforeseen consequences, could also help to reestablish depleted fisheries by providing more food at the base of the food chain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Orbiting solar power satellites
Let's kill two birds with one stone here. If we're putting an expensive structure up in space let's not waste the opportunity to generate some power while we're at it.

Japan is putting up a solar power satellite in the next few years. Companies like Space Energy Inc. are making plans for space satellites to beam power back to Earth.

Solar rays are at least five times as powerful in space as they are at ground level, allowing the huge panels to gather vast quantities of energy.

A report by researchers at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries said: "Since solar power is a clean and inexhaustible energy source, we believe that this system will be able to help solve the problems of energy shortage and global warming."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/solarpower/6536752/Japan-plans-solar-power-station-in-space.html


Just food for thought...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Welcome back Oscar! (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. You're arguing against a strawman.
There are no models and no modelers that claim to be able to make projections of the type of geographical resolution you suggest. You're flailing at windmills, figuratively and literally -- a key characteristic of a denier.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. contrar
http://landsat.gsfc.nasa.gov/about/Application6.5.html

but far from denying global warming I agree that it is happening. You would understand this if you haD READ MY POST.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. So you don't know what a model is then.
This is your proof that such models exist? "If future climate change leads to increased temperatures and less rainfall in this arid region, as some climate models predict..."

Show me the model!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Do you not read the high uncertainity in that article?
They're just getting to trying to figure out the effects it will have on these regions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I do read that uncertainty
I (again) find it encouraging that that uncertainty seems to be higher now than it was in the models as I remember reading them a few years ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Bullshit
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. First you say bullshit
Edited on Tue Aug-03-10 07:43 PM by existentialist
that there aren't any such computer models and that I'm a global warming denier even though from my post I am clearly not a global warming denier, and I don't have to look too far to find a computer model which supports my original post which I cite.

Then I'm criticized because the computer model is carefully qualified with the very types of uncertainly that I attempred to raise with my original post.

So I attempt to explain that and you say bullshit again.

You proved one thing.

You know how to spell "Bullshit."

Congratulations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You've not provided this imaginary model you claim exists.
Only that you "remember" one from several years back. Until you produce a link to a peer-reviewed study of an actual model that claims to be able to make projections with the level of certainty and the geographic resolution you claim, I'll continue to call Bullshit. Failure to do so yet continuing to claim, "it's not as bad as predicted," is classic denier M.O.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. The uncertainty isn't in any "models" because the very link you provide has none.
The uncertainty is in the understanding. In the link that you gave they are uncertain what the effects will be. They are trying to figure it out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-10 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. What papers? What models?
What confidence level? 5 years ago our confidence level was lacking. It won't be good, I reckon, for at least another decade. We're still figuring a lot of the finer details out.

The models are incomplete.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 05:48 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC